Red Sox Trade Values: Hitters
In Part 1 of this series, I ran down the surplus value that each pitcher under the Red Sox control would have in a trade. This installment does the same for the Red Sox position players. Once again, I am using the excellent trade value calculator developed by Sky Kalkman of Beyond the Boxscore and my own very basic projections for Wins Over Replacement (WAR) for each player during their current contract years. Here it is:
To absolutely nobody’s surprise, Laser Show tops the list. Dustin Pedroia’s current contract is just about as team-friendly as they come and his value, even in my ultra-conservative projection is pretty massive. I was a bit surprised that Kevin Youkilis didn’t rank higher, but his deal, while very good for the Sox, is much closer to his market value than Pedey’s. He is also under their control for one less season, which makes a big difference. With both Youk and Pedey, I should just call this their surplus value, since trading them is a ridiculous idea. These are cornerstone players. If they are on the field, the Red Sox have the start of a great team.
Jed Lowrie and Jacoby Ellsbury are the team’s top two trade pieces right now and they seem to pop up in every rumor we hear. Given the potential that they have and their low cost, they aren’t easy players to give up. They are also the two most difficult players to project going forward. Both are young and have shown high levels of performance in the Majors but both have suffered serious injuries recently and have question marks surrounding their position and their defense. In projecting them, I am making the assumption they stay healthy and perform around their established levels. If they do, they will make it very hard to match them in value over the next three years with a single player. To move these two, the Red Sox need to get an established star, period.
Another big surprise for me here is Marco Scutaro. His contract makes it pretty easy for him to give his team solid value in 2011. I think he absolutely will be traded this off-season.
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Surprised that Youk does not rank higher even with his contract being closer to market value.
Maybe it is my browser (using chrome) but the graph shows up pretty small for me, a little hard to see. Seems the pic of Pedey is keeping it squished to the side.
Having trouble making the graph bigger in the article
but you should be able to clink on it and get the larger image. As for Youk, he is projected conservatively, as is Pedey. Both could easily be 25-50% more valuable than shown here, without doing anything they haven’t already done before. Youk gets hit with more decline due to age.
- Matt Sullivan
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What about WAR for Upton?
You don’t know how that plays out- are we giving up more WAR than we are getting? Both of our players are entering their prime as well. If we were trading guys whose WAR was about to drop I’d be all for that. You are trading 2 guys with plenty of potential- one with TONS of potential, which if not for breaking ribs and not playing all season, you’d NEVER trade. Is Upton gonna steal us 70 bases?
I suspect we are suffering from “the grass is greener” syndrome. Upton didn’t make the D’Backs all that good this year.
simul justus et peccator
No chance we're giving up more than we're getting.
Conservatively Upton might provide $50mm in value over what he’s owed. Signed a very team friendly deal last year, he’s young and he’s a very… well balanced/well rounded player who provides value in every aspect of the game.
That offer isn’t going to get it done.
Fwiw, here are the blurbs for both Upton and Pedroia in Dave Cameron’s excellent trade value series on fangraphs:
#5 – Dustin Pedroia, 2B, Boston
Whether it is his size or the fact that he is overshadowed by other players on his team, Pedroia still hardly ever gets the recognition for being one of the best players in baseball. But he is one of the best in baseball at making contact while still hitting for power, and he rounds out his game by drawing walks, stealing bases at a high success rate, and playing excellent defense at second base. Over all, the package adds up to a +5 to +6 win player in his prime. Oh, and he’s under contract for the next five years at a total of $44 million – the last year is voided if he’s traded, but still, 4/33 for what Pedroia brings to the table is a huge bargain.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2010-trade-value-5-1/
#11 – Justin Upton, OF, Arizona
Another tough one. Upton is not having a great year, as his power is down and his strikeouts are up over last year’s performance, but we have to keep in mind Upton’s youth. He doesn’t turn 23 for another month and has already accumulated 57 career home runs. Guys who are this good and this young almost always develop into superstars. Unless Upton screws it up, he can look forward to greatness ahead of him, and the Diamondbacks have already locked him up through 2015 for a total of $50 million. He’s not a star yet, but not only could he become one, he could be the best player in baseball. At this price, his upside would make every team in baseball get in on the bidding if he became available.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2010-trade-value-15-11/
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You'd "never" trade Ellsbury?
He’s a tweener: he can’t field enough for center, and he doesn’t hit enough for left. He’ll have one great season and otherwise not be very much. We should’ve flipped him for Santana or Cabrera after 2007. Ellsbury is the type of player you keep around when you have no other options because he’s cheap, that’s all.
Also, who the hell cares about 70 SBs? Upton is 23 and every sign points to him being a stud. I salivate just thinking about what he could do with the monster. Considering he slumped to a 111 OPS+ as a 22 year old, the mind reels.
Agreed. Anyone see the article on Boston.com by Chris Gasper?
I agree with almost everything he says. If Ellsbury, Bard and Reddick (or another prospect not names Kelly, Westmoreland or Iglesis) would get Upton, I’d do it in a heartbeat.
Troy Smith is our future
Trade Danny Granger
by return2greatness on Nov 27, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Hell I'd do Iglesias too
Because he’s shown me nothing with his bat so far to make me want to put that defense on the field.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I might even do Kelly
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Nov 27, 2010 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
I like Kelly..
I’d rather give up Doubront or Pimentel
Troy Smith is our future
Trade Danny Granger
by return2greatness on Nov 28, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
So would I
Hell, I’d rather give up Micheal Bowden, Aaron Bates, Bubba Bell, and Daniel Nava, but sometimes you have to just grit your teeth and do it.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Nov 28, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
touche
Troy Smith is our future
Trade Danny Granger
by return2greatness on Nov 28, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
yep i'll even do Ells, Bard, Iglesias + Kelly
by German Red Sox Fan on Nov 28, 2010 2:24 AM EST up reply actions
And then we'd still have pieces to get Soto!
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Nov 28, 2010 7:46 AM EST up reply actions
As much as I'm a conservative prospect-loving guy.
Yeah
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USG
by Ben Buchanan on Nov 28, 2010 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
Before this season
he was considered untouchable. He was a fan favorite. If this was last off season and a straight up deal was offered, I’m thinking 90-95% of the Sox fans would want to riot.
I find it strange that suddenly he’s given a one-way ticket out of town.
Aside from the questionable UZR, he does well in CF. Yup, he makes bad reads, but has the speed to consistently make up for it.
I’ll take 70 stolen bases, and the runs they create by putting a guy in scoring position and putting pressure on the pitcher.
but you can think differently.
simul justus et peccator
I'd rather have 50 doubles and 20 sb
than 70 singles and 0 sbs.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Nov 27, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
Aside from the questionable UZR, he does well in CF.
That’s pretty much like saying “aside from the poor hitting, he does well at the plate.”
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 28, 2010 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
Sort of.
I know we talked this to death last off-season, but one season of bad UZR doesn’t mean someone is a bad fielder. By design, a single season is too small a sample size for UZR. Over his career, Ellsbury is an above-average fielder. The -9.7 for 2009 stands out like a sore thumb, and is highly “questionable.”
Manny ain't the only bad man.
Over his career he's a perfectly average CF.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 28, 2010 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
I think you're dead wrong
last off season after Upton just posted a 4.6 WAR season at basically age 21 we would have not like a trade straight up for ells? That might have been the biggest steal for us in the history of baseball.
by German Red Sox Fan on Nov 28, 2010 2:45 AM EST up reply actions
Then 90-95% of Sox fans are utter idiots
Upton is objectively better than Ellsbury, is younger, and was the runaway #1 pick in his draft. Ellsbury is good-looking.
That doesn’t win championships.
by Sean O on Nov 28, 2010 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
LOL
Troy Smith is our future
Trade Danny Granger
by return2greatness on Nov 28, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
It doesn't?
No wonder I suck at The Show’s franchise mode.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 28, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
So fielding a team of Clooney's doesn't work?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
No
Clooneys and Pitts, however…
Well, it remains to be seen.
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USG
by Ben Buchanan on Nov 28, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
I don't get all the Brad Pitt hype.
Dude just looks off to me, Timothy Olyphant is much better.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Nov 28, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
I stayed away from that series
In making these articles because I didn’t want it to bias my work any, but Cameron really does some amazing work there. After doing this series, I am in awe of all the work that goes into his review each year. I have Pedroia projected in the 5 WAR range for most of that deal and that is still conservative given that he was on track for 6 WAR before he got hurt and has already topped 6 once before. He is really, really good, I mean historically good thus far, and I am not saying that just because I am a fan.
The only problem I see in Ellsbury and Lowrie for Upton is that I can reasonably see the combination of those two being worth close to 7 WAR on average for the next three years and one player rarely ever produces that much value. It may be that I am higher on Lowrie than most, but I don’t think so. Regardless, in keeping them you have two players to distribute the risk across, in trading them for Upton, it is consolidated into just one guy.
- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
www.spacemanspancakes.wordpress.com
I wouldn't flip Lowrie right now.
Chances are his value isn’t really all that high even after such a promising return. Hasn’t had time to catch up. He’s got the promise of a hugely valuable player, and since those are such a premium, I’d roll those dice.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 28, 2010 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
yes exactly
he’s earned enough to be worth “a questionable player with a lot of potential,” whereas to me he just looks like an awesome player. I just can’t imagine that from all I’ve seen of him, he would be worth more to the team as a trading piece than as a member of the team.
I think Lowrie is much closer to "untouchable" than say Bard or Ells
Whenever he plays he plays great, that bat has the potential to be a top 5 bat at short, in a small sample this year he was up there with Tulo and HanRam, just incredible. I’d hold onto him at all costs really, he could be our next Pedrioa.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I'd stay away from the Top 5 SS moniker...
but I’ll say this; I wouldn’t include him in any deals. I think Jed has the potential to be a very steady SS for us and besides, he’s a dorky looking white kid from Standford…. what’s not to love about that?
Troy Smith is our future
Trade Danny Granger
by return2greatness on Nov 28, 2010 9:16 AM EST up reply actions
On offense, Rogue Nine's "Top 5" claim is reasonable.
The fifth-highest OPS among SS’s in 2010 was only 0.755. A healthy Lowrie for a full season should be able to reach and exceed that plateau quite easily.
SS is mostly an offensive wasteland in MLB. Ranking by HR’s, the 12th- through 14th-ranked SS’s had 10 HR’s each. Lowrie had 9. The difference? The three shortstops with 10 had on average about 540 AB’s each. Lowrie had 171.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
I stand corrected.
Thanks for the info!
Troy Smith is our future
Trade Danny Granger
by return2greatness on Nov 28, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Left-handed, he's pretty much Pedroia already.
When he bats right-handed, his numbers this year resemble Youk’s.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Yup and the FO has waited patiently for the payoff on him so I would hate to see him go when it looks like he has finally 'arrived'
"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis
It's hard to see them trading him away when they still need to figure out what's going on at SS and 3B.
Given the way Theo and Tito have been talking about him lately, I have a feeling they want him at the hot corner next year.
But either way he’s an outstanding value: premium offense and solid defense at SS, or above-average offense and above-average defense at 3B.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Really, the more you learn about Lowrie
the better he looks. He does just about everything pretty well and if he sticks at short (and I think he will) he would only have to be average with the glove to be in the top three in the AL at that position. He has a very high ceiling right now, and even if he falls short of it he can be an above average major league player.
- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
www.spacemanspancakes.wordpress.com
I wish I could be as high on Lowrie as everyone else
But I don’t want to get my hopes up again. If he could actually be our long-term solution at short then I would be absolutely thrilled. Here’s hoping, but we need a backup plan.
His name's Scutaro
You hate him, remember?
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Nov 28, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Or there's always Iglesias.
We’re kind of spoiled for choice as far as second-tier shortstops go. Scutaro, Iglesias, Navarro…
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Nov 28, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds great by me
Lowrie for the first 7 innings, then bring in Iglesias as a defensive sub afterwards.
I got it!
Bard, Ellsbury, Iglesias, Beckett and Dice-K
For
Upton, Haren and Montero
Call Kevin Towers.
Troy Smith is our future
Trade Danny Granger
by return2greatness on Nov 28, 2010 7:57 PM EST reply actions
Haren is now on Anaheim. And no one wants Beckett.
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by Marisa Ingemi on Nov 28, 2010 8:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Didn't realize Haren went to LAA
but I think you underestimate the interest there might be in Beckett though, he’s still a rather good pitcher, even if he struggled with injuries last year. In the NL too? Beckett could put up big numbers.
Troy Smith is our future
Trade Danny Granger
by return2greatness on Nov 28, 2010 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
Well, no it wasn’t.
Troy Smith is our future
by return2greatness on Nov 29, 2010 10:08 AM EST up reply actions

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