Red Sox Set Limit On Martinez And Beltre -- Is It Too Low?
by Ben Buchanan on Nov 17, 2010 2:07 AM EST
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While the Red Sox had previously stated that retaining the services of Adrian Beltre and Victor Martinez were priorities for this offseason, it seems now that the Red Sox might not be willing to back up that determination with their wallet.
According to a report from Nick Cafardo, an unnamed source has indicated that the Red Sox will not be willing to go beyond 4 years and $52 million for Beltre, or a similar limit for Martinez.
As the premier third baseman and catcher on the market, it seems hard to imagine that this sort of deal will pull in either player. While both players are on the wrong side of 30 and have questions surrounding their ability to maintain their 2010 performances (immediately for Beltre, and in the near future for Martinez), $60 million seems like a more realistic figure, especially given the scarcity of quality free agents this offseason. Add in the Red Sox' low early offers to Victor Martinez and Adrian Beltre's desire to be closer to his family on the West Coast, and the Sox may have suddenly become outsiders in both races.
While losing both Beltre and Martinez could make this offseason an irredeemable failure to some, the Red Sox would presumably be forced to turn their attention to other marquee free agents or the trade market. Ratings and fan support slid last year as the Red Sox endured a frustrating, injury-filled season that ended early for the first time since 2006. Going into next season with money unspent would seem an inadvisable mistake.
If Beltre does not return, the Red Sox have shown their willingness to move Kevin Youkilis to third base, allowing them to look towards the more plentiful first baseman market (both in free agency and trade). They could also make use of Jed Lowrie at the hot corner, though the infielder has played primarily shortstop during his career.
Martinez would be rather harder to replace. Few believe that Jarrod Saltalamacchia is ready to take over as a full-time starting catcher, and the Red Sox' best catching prospects are still at least a year away. While the Sox were said to be actively pursuing John Buck, the Marlins just snatched him up (likely overpaying in the process). More interesting options may be available in the trade market, though. The Red Sox were linked to both Russell Martin and Chris Iannetta around the trade deadline earlier this year, though there's no guarantee that either catcher--particularly Iannetta--is still available.
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Well, hopefully that is a starting point and they will go up if necessary
Here is my concern: When the FA’s startng signing- who will be left? Also, I think the guys who can hit with power (our guys in particular) might really be valued more than usual since they juice is gone and not alot of true power hitters are still there. And, way off subject – but speaking of power/avg that is why Jim Rice is so impressive – don’t know why I thought of that but so glad he is in the Hall. And, feel free to disagree with me on that one – I don’t care my mind is made up.
"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis
I know...
In a way we’re sitting here left twiddling our thumbs wondering…when the heck anything is going to happen.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
What do you mean?
David DeJesus traded to the As. Hiroki Kuroda resigned. This Hot Stove season is on fire!!!
Uggla too!
And Westbrook signed, Buck signed.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Red Sox Headlines
The Hot Stove is on fire elsewhere, it’s on simmer here.
At least, that’s my interpretation. But my impatience is simply getting the better of me. :-)
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
R-Mart is Certainly an Option at C
Mainly because the Dodgers may be willing to unload him if they can get cheaper prospects back. I’m sure Gary Tuck can work wonders with him and Salty. Of course if the Dodgers decide to non-tender him (small possibility but it’s there), then all this discussion gets a tad moot.
Of course there’s always Olivo, Pierzynski, Torrealba…
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
+1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Nov 17, 2010 9:05 AM EST up reply actions
+1
Pierzynski has had so many problems with pitchers in the past. It is a reason why the Giants and Twins were finding ways to get rid of him…. Pierzynski is a clubhouse cancer. He is an okay hitting catcher, he was the catcher for their lesser Sox 2005 World Series team, but a bunch of pitchers have complain about his work ethic and his surly behavior.
If it boils down between Victor Martinez and AJ Pierzynski, I wouldn’t hesitate in topping whatever other team is offering Victor Martinez.
R-Mart?
We’re calling him R-Mart now?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
I'll back you on that.
There needs to be a limit to this letter-syllable nicknaming.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
And it's not like "Martinez" and "Rodriguez"
Where there’s a bunch of them in the league. And it’s a long name that ends in “z”.
It’s Martin.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
NO NO NO NO NO NO
Clay.
Other Guy.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
come on. tis the season to be 'Mart" - ing it
vmart
rmart
kmart
fa la la la ………..
blue light special in aisle one – julio lugo on sale for half price
Lugo for Half Price?
You’ll see me in line for a return thank you very much.
I might take him for 75% off…
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Ah Well That Depends...
75% off of how much?
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Somebody else started it in another thread.
Blame them.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
No Doubt.
So feel free to give me hell for it. :-)
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
I agree with the FO approach
Sticking ot thier guns prevented Bay from coming back for around 4/$60M. Deviating from their philosophy, in my opinion, led to a bad contract with Lowell. The Sox can spend heavily but they can’t make many mistakes to keep up with the Yankees and other AL foes.
I would love to have Beltre back but there are other options. For example, you could slide Lowrie to 3B or move slide Youkilis to DLee to a one year deal and make a run at Gonzo in ’12.
I would like to have VMart back but I get nervous about 4 year deals when there is already talk about him moving to 1B by year 2. There are other options, including acquiring Napoli, Iannetta, Doumit and Martin.
Spend smart. If you spend irresponsibly now, you’ll spend infrequently later.
Bad contracts
There is always a risk in signing free agents. For one thing they are almost always at least 30 years old when they become available. They are almost always, but not ALWAYS (see Dunn, Abreu, Vlad Guerro) overpaid. That being said, the Red Sox are one of the few teams that can afford the risk associated with free agent siginings.
Sure, the Lowell contract didn’t work out, but the Sox went right out and signed Beltre for one year knowing they still had the Lowell money on the books. Obvioulsy the Pirates and the Royals, etc. would not do this even if they signed a free agent to begin with. But we are talking about the Boston Red Sox here. Not that they should spend money foolishly, but they can afford a greater risk than most. They have shown a willingness to address bad contracts (Renteria, Lugo, Lowell), quickly and for the good of the team. This is a good thing for us fans. We should worry a lot less about the Sox payroll as fans.
On the main topic, I say pay Victor, let someone else pay Beltre. V-Mart has shown a consistent good bat throughout his career and his versatility is unmatched. Pay for his bat and let him be the full-time catcher for a couple of years, then move him to part-time catcher/1B/DH for the last couple of years if it even comes to that. Again, nobody as proven that he can’t catch for another 4 years.
Bad Contracts
They don’t want to be paying 3 3rd baseman like they were SS. While they “can” absorb those hits, it is still foolish and hurts the franchise. The Rent-a-Wreck & Lugo contracts kept us from investing money in other players during the beginning of the bridge. They are part of why there is a bridge.
simul justus et peccator
What players?
Can you tell me which players the Sox could not afford sign because of the bad contracts?
Of course they don’t WANT to sign bad contracts; that’s where the risk comes in. The point is, the Sox have a high tolerance for risk and can afford to address issues. They just don’t want to miss on the really big conracts. The only big money FA I recall them really pursuing was Texiera.
I wouldn't put Lowell as a bad contract..
Lowell had one good year, two injury laden years, but he played a different position when asked and hit okay. I give Lowell some slack because he was a professional
It would had been a bad contract if it was a 5 year deal, or it would be a pain in the neck if Lowell got 4 years instead of three..
Lugo’s contract was bad, because he failed badly in two things he was paid to do, play shortstop and be leadoff hitter, he lost out on both positions because he couldn’t perform and his injuries seemed more of an excuse to keep him off the rooster after awhile. Rentería’s contract was also bad. Lackey’s contract is still too early to tell, This is one move, I seriously questioned Theo on.
He played for a year and a half of that 3 year deal
By default, that makes it a terrible, terrible deal.
Not necessarily, but yeah, it still sucked.
Interesting fact: Mike Lowell accumulated 0.00 war. Two significant digits of dead-even 0.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 17, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
Er, in 2010
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 17, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
True.
But I don’t think the sudden injury and loss of Mikey was expected.
Sure I’m sure some injury was, but not this way; he hadn’t really shown signs had he?
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
No it makes it a horrible result
The deal in my opinion wasn’t bad, but there is always risk. It was just unfortunate that it didn’t turn out better.
This.
It’s important to remember the difference between a bad deal and a bad result. Hindsight is 20-20, right? So it’s easy to look back and say, “We paid for this, but got much less, therefore it’s a bad deal.” In reality, a deal can look great when it is made and then things go wrong. There are no guarantees when you sign a player, and sometimes good deals just have bad results.
I’m not sure I would call Lowell a bad deal. Or at least I didn’t think so when we signed him to that contract. But it yielded awful results.
Options
I think VMart will be catching in four years. Somebody feel free to prove me wrong, but off the top of my head, most catchers that really plummet in their 30s already weren’t too good with the bat. Aren’t better comparables to Victor: Posada, Tek, Piazza, Fisk?
At 36 hit:
.277/.374/.492/.867 143games 4.9 WAR Posada
.255/.367/.421/.787 131games 2.7 WAR Tek (after injury year)
.266/.362/.444/ .806 129games 1.5 WAR Piazza
.289/.355/.518/.873 138games 5.0 WAR Fisk
I think your Posada numbers are wrong
Posada was hurt at age 36, and hit .268/.364/.411/.775 in 51 games. He had his career best hitting year at age 35 (.338/.426/.543/.970) and bounced back from the injury to hit 285/.363/.522/.885 in 111 games when he was 37. Posada hit 307/.394/.515/.908 the three years, from age 35-37. In those years, he was primarily a catcher. Posada DHed only 29 games over those three years and played 10 games at 1B.
Fisk hit .289/.355/.518/.874 when he was 35 (his birthday was in December). His numbers were very up and down after age 35.
I think the Posada/VMart comparison is apt. Both are converted IF and while Posada was a better offensive player, Vic is a very good hitting catcher. Also, VMart’s career .313/.381/.486/.867 line at 1B in 137 games is very good. The only problem is the Sox have organizational depth at 1B (another reason why I’m not sold on getting Adrian Gonzalez).
However, your point about VMart is well taken.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Nov 17, 2010 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
good stuff
victor will be 36 after 4 seasons – he is still 31.
so this info is very relevant.
how did these guys do relative to the DL?
there isn’t an obvious replacement to vmart for the sox.
4 years for $60m is comfortable – so it probably won’t get it done.
3B Options
If the Sox can’t get Beltre, what about Lance Berkman on a one year deal? If they’re serious about A-Gon, then free agency is the best way to get him. Berkman would be a great one year filler I think. His glove was still good, and while his hitting was down, he was recovering from knee surgery.
Only if he had a platoon partner.
Konerko would seem better to me if they could convince him to come. Really just hate the concept of moving Youk to 3rd though.
so does getting a third baseman
like Beltre.
I don’t think we’ll get a premium for Scutaro, since his contract is fair but not underpriced, but we could trade him for say some bullpen help and use the money we save to help us sign Beltre or something.
+1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Nov 17, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Probably not a horribly impressive premium.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 17, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
beltre for $52m won't happen
this is a 3rd baseman and catcher FA year (ss, also, but there aren’t any).
2 scenarios
sign beltre
don’t sign beltre
if you sign beltre everything stays the same – this also allows us to trade scooter. ss are at a premium this off season.
if you don’t, someone will be moving and we will need to pick up another infielder. possibly, gonzo.
you think so?
i’m thinking that if 4 will do it, the sox will up the ante.
i was thinking the sox were more concerned with the length.
wasn’t beltre on the market for 4/52 last year?
Beltre was getting offers of 3/24 last year, after his bad year
if the reports that the west coast A’s offered 5/64 are true, I can’t see the Sox keeping him.
IIRC, the A's offered 5/45.
Well, that’s all I’ve heard so far.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Nov 17, 2010 3:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
it's been reported after that that it was 5/64, the same that he had from the Mariners
and that he’s looking at Torii Hunter’s 5 year/90 million contract as a baseline.
Good luck Beltre.
Even in the off-season Anxiety with this team kills me....
I can’t stand how ambiguous the catching situation is. (3rd base also, but less so with the Youk or Lowrie options) I’m on pins and needles all the time. Haha.
by TeddyBallgameFan on Nov 17, 2010 11:16 AM EST reply actions
Eh, it's just negotiations.
Theo’s setting the bar and the tone. That’s not to say he’s not close to his max offer, but it’s only November so it’s hard to imagine he hasn’t given himself some room. Perhaps this is the max of the base and he’ll add incentives to it as he negotiates further. I’m not sweating it yet.
Ellsbury, Reddick/Kalish and Doubront
for Justin Upton.
Troy Smith is our future
Trade Danny Granger
by return2greatness on Nov 17, 2010 1:01 PM EST reply actions
But it gives us a potential superstar in the OF.
I think we need to resign V-Mart if it’s costs more… let Beltre walk if he doesn’t like our offer. I loved watching him last year but I’m worried he packs it in once he gets his payday.
Troy Smith is our future
Trade Danny Granger
by return2greatness on Nov 17, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
If your'e not excited about the possibility of the Sox getting Upton..
Then you’re dead.
Troy Smith is our future
Trade Danny Granger
by return2greatness on Nov 17, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
no it doesn't
but would give the sox a new star and would pretty certainly improve the team in the future.
+1
It doesn’t solve a current problem but would certainly improve the team and possibly solve an OF problem come 2012.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Nov 17, 2010 3:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Not if it came with Ellsbury as part of the price.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 17, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
Why not?
Troy Smith is our future
Trade Danny Granger
by return2greatness on Nov 18, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
because the problem is that after 2011
we have currently two holes in the outfield (Cameron and Drew). If we gain an outfielder (Upton) by shipping off an outfielder (Ells), then after 2011 we still have two holes in the outfield.
So Neither Kalish nor Reddick
Will be ready by then? At least that’s the logic I see in that statement.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
no, the issue is the risk in depending on them both being ready then
and very good major league players. Personally, I think the Kalish will be an everyday valuable contributor in 2012, but there are two holes to fill. There are few good options on the FA market next year, and we’d almost certainly have to fill at least one of them that way. If we acquire an outfielder now without getting rid of one, we only have to hope that one of Reddick or Kalish is ready in 2012.
With Beltre we have some crazy good infield depth.
Without him, our backup is Navarro. There are a lot of decent catchers on the trade market as well, I’m wondering is Jim Hendry would listen on Soto.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
+1 excellent comment
I’ve been mentioning Soto off and on during the end of the season. IMO, the Cubs should be in a rebuilding mode because, let’s face it, they’re just not that good,so IDK how available Soto is. Chicago had some catcher raking in AA last year. I just don’t know anything about him (if he could stay at that position). It would make sense for the Cubs, if rebuilding, to trade Soto for 3-4 prospects that could be ready to come up when their next catcher comes up.I’d be willing to trade top prospects for Soto, within reason of course.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Nov 17, 2010 2:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Robinson Chirinos would be the young catcher I was talking about
The only problem is that he’s not that young. IIRC, he’s 26 right now.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Nov 17, 2010 2:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
So would I, my only issue being
He seems a lot like Salty/Martin, a highly touted prospect who impressed his first year and then disappointed. He’s not as bad as those two, but his sophomore year can’t be ignored.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Nov 17, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
Soto? Sure it can.
.246 BABIP compared to a low-300s career average.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 17, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
If they were listening on Soto
I would like to offer them my firstborn son.
Yours as well.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 17, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
I think this Globe article is propaganda...by the Sox Front Office
Why announce the Sox Front Office limit?!!? It isn’t for Victor Martinez and Adrian Beltre’s sake, but for the fans sake, to say, “Hey we tried”, and kind of one big Eff You to VMart and Beltre, because it kind of sets their price for contract length and value by other teams, especially for Beltre.
Boras is known to set these artificial limits and heighten anxieties to get the best deal. He also won’t respond to any contract offers that won’t meet his high demands. I just see the Sox folding early, and more for Media Spin sake.
I never thought the Sox would sign either Free Agent, because the Sox tend to be very quiet but forceful, they also liked to get the deal done when they have the player and agent’s sole attention. The Sox were never that good in competing in free for all, team pick a up a number so they can wait to be called by Boras. They always deal with Boras with some sort of exclusivity, like the JD Drew Deal, or Daisuke’s deal.
Because it's not really good press for the team to say
“We have set a limit on how much we’ll pay for these guys” and have it be below what many expect the price to be at.
This would be truly bizarre propaganda.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 17, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
We "were never that good in competing in free for all"
because we apply a value to a player and stick to it. The teams that consistently “win” the free for all bidding wars for FAs are frequently stuck with bad contracts.
No doubt, but that's not how the part of the fanbase they'd be propagandizing to cares about.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 17, 2010 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
The Sox also has some Press/Media
They tend to say publicly “here was our best offer” and then leave it. I don’t even think they are serious about a 4/52 deal..
I don’t think the Sox should sign Victor Martinez or Beltre because the it will be bad deals with the value artificially high. This is more about the Sox showing they were never that serious in pursuing either of them after their time with the Sox.
by superferret on Nov 17, 2010 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
To do it publicly
isn’ that considerate to either agents of Beltre or Martinez. I realize consideration and Boras shouldn’t be in the same sentence. Look, the Sox carefully selects its leaks to the media. Having both Belte and Martinez the same limit of contract means it came from the Sox Front Office.
by superferret on Nov 17, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
No organization is perfectly air-tight.
And this is Boras we’re dealing with here. For all we know, he leaked it to get them to go higher.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 17, 2010 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
Geez..
The A’s gave Beltre a very nice deal, I doubt he will find anything in duration or value..
by superferret on Nov 17, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
Let them both walk.....
Sign either Laroche or Overbay to a relatively cheap one year deal, move Youk to third and sign Gonzalez or Fielder next year. Re-sign Varitek as mentor/right handed platoon to Saltalamacchia. In the post-steroid era, 30 is no longer the new 20. Tampa is looking at a step backward(for now), so the playoffs are in sight without overpaying for aging stars.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
"You take a team with twenty-five assholes and I'll show you a pennant. I'll show you the New York Yankees." - Bill "Spaceman" Lee
by Lloyd Christmas on Nov 18, 2010 11:01 PM EST reply actions
If the options are LaRoche or Overbay
I’d rather just let Jed or even Scutaro have 3B. If they want a stop gap I think Berkman is the best option. His down year last year was as good as most of the other option’s best years.
Konerko is done with the White Sox
and said he doesn’t want to sign a long term deal because he’s not sure how much longer he wants to play.
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