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If Victor Martinez Leaves, John Buck Would Be A Great Replacement

According to Gordon Edes of ESPNBoston.com, the Red Sox will pursue former Blue Jays catcher John Buck "aggressively" if current catcher Victor Martinez signs elsewhere.

The anticipation is that the Detroit Tigers will likely make the biggest push for Martinez this offseason as they look for a veteran hitter who can spend time behind the plate and first base this season as well as serve as protection for Miguel Cabrera in the lineup.

The Red Sox are very high on Buck as he matched Martinez in power categories, with both hitting 20 home runs.  Buck also proved to be a better catcher defensively last year as he threw out 28% of base runners compared to Martinez's 21%.

Buck will also come much cheaper than Martinez on the open market.  Which makes Buck quite valuable to the Red Sox as they are also interested in retaining third baseman Adrian Beltre as well as exploring outfielders Jayson Werth and Carl Crawford.

In 2010, Martinez however did hit for a high average of .302 with the 20 home runs and 79 RBIs (a normal V-Mart season).  Martinez also added a .351 OBP. and .493 slugging percentage.  Besides being a switch-hitter and an All-Star last season, Martinez wasn't that much better than Buck.

Star-divide

GABRH2B3BHRRBIBBKSBCSAVGOBPSLG
2010 - John Buck 118 409 53 115 25 0 20 66 16 111 0 0 .281 .314 .489

 

The only clear downside to Buck is that he isn't a very patient hitter as he only walked 16 times last season and struck out around 111 times which doesn't exactly fit the style of the Red Sox of working the count and drawing more walks. 

However Buck has been known as a very hard worker behind the plate and works well with young pitchers as his the Toronto staff last season's average age was 25 years old and was able to work with the likes of Ricky Romero (14 wins 3.73 ERA), Shawn Marcum (13 wins 3.64 ERA), and Brett Cecil (15 wins 4.22 ERA) resulting in one of the best pitching staffs in all of baseball, ranking in the top-10 in wins, ERA, and innings.

With unproven switch-hitting catcher Jarrod Saltalamacchia as the only major league ready catcher currently on the Red Sox roster, signing John Buck would be a great addition to the pitching staff, the lineup, and it will allow Salty to get another season under his belt and hopefully help him transition into the All-Star catcher we all know he can be.

Poll
Would John Buck be a good option for the Sox if V-Mart Leaves?
Yes, he's the best possible option on the market now and we need a catcher
487 votes
No, why not let Saltalamacchia start next season?
128 votes

615 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 215 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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I want to keep Victor

But to me, Werth is of greater need. If they cannot sign Victor, I would not complain about Werth and Buck.

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by Marisa Ingemi on Nov 11, 2010 12:07 PM EST reply actions  

The Sox Front Office isn't going to keep or really pursue Victor Martinez..

If anything the Sox Front Office is good at, is PR. They have been throwing out stuff like Gammons recent interview on WEEI that Saltalamacchia would make a good catcher and then this.. They putting some PR moves for their fans..

Victor is gone, it sounds like with the Tigers. They seemed to be lessening the blow when he signs, and they have someone in their sights.

by superferret on Nov 11, 2010 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

"Besides being a switch-hitter and an All-Star last season, Martinez wasn't that much better than Buck."

Yea right.

Bucks career slash line: .243/.301/.421
7 seasons, 702 games
wOBA: .311
Career WAR: 7.3

Victor’s career slash line: .300/.369/.469
9 seasons, 1004 games
wOBA: .360
Career WAR: 28.4

After Victor, the catcher options get thin but Buck is not Victor Martinez.

Take another look Jared.

by went9 on Nov 11, 2010 12:36 PM EST reply actions  

What happened to my post on John "The Windmill" Buck?

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Here ya go
Buck is an awful hitter

His "success" was the result of BABIP. His BB-rate was atrocious (3.7%) and his O-swings were 40.2% (average last year was 29.3%). His defense is OK, but he isn’t a shut-down catcher. In other words, his defense isn’t good enough to offset his poor hitting. I’m with went9 on this one.

-Drugs Delaney

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks, Ben

Who deleted it?

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Nobody

The quirks of a “reply” system.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I really don't get

why people think this is such a great pickup.

by flasoxfan on Nov 11, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

If his name isn't Victor Martinez

Sign him. Buck will regress badly, but fine with me.

by Sean O on Nov 11, 2010 12:40 PM EST reply actions  

Great strategy

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

No, great strategy

is giving 4/$60 for someone who isn’t a catcher to be your catcher.

by Sean O on Nov 11, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

VMart is a catcher

Salty isn’t. The difference is one is serviceable behind the plate and the other one isn’t.

And, you don’t know what kind of contract VMart will get.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Considering that he is, objectively,

One of the best players-who-have-a-C-next-to-their-name in baseball, and other teams are interested in his services for some reason, he’s going to get a crazy contract. I, for one, am sick of handing out crazy contracts.

by Sean O on Nov 11, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Since VMart, money excluded, is the best option

The Sox should find out what it’ll take to sign him first. Also, if the Sox lose out on VMart, they’ll have to make up the offense somewhere. Buck can’t hit. That means either a costly trade for someone like Adrian Gonzalez (who will have to be re-signed) or overpaying an Adrian Beltre, Carl Crawford, or Jayson Werth. There aren’t many great options.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not convinced we can really

overpay for Crawford. I’m not insanely in his camp, but he’s the type of player we should be going for. If he could play CF, I’d walk the 3 blocks to Fenway with a giant SIGN CRAWFORD banner every lunch break.

I’d feel better if we had a starting rotation of Lester, Buckles, Matsuzaka, ?,? and an extra $35m to spend. But since we’re blowing cash on meathead and Lacking, I’d like to avoid blowing large sums of money in other places.

by Sean O on Nov 11, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Crawford doesn't want to play CF

And he’ll probably cost $6 million a year more than VMart—and be signed for more years.

You say you’d rather have Lester, Buchh, Dice-K, and 2 questionmarks. But you’d still have to fill those slots. That would mean you’d have to spend some of the $35 million you’re saving.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course,

but I’d rather have a better chance at signing Lee (who is an elite player) rather than being stuck with Beckett and Lackey (who suck).

Martinez is a 31 year old defensive liability. Crawford is a 28 year old outfielder who is a defensive star. Yes, he will be somewhat wasted in LF at Fenway, but he is not the type to decline any time soon. I don’t trust Martinez being able to stick at C without absolutely murdering us like he did in the first half of last season, especially as he ages. And I don’t want him to be our replacement for Ortiz for 2012.

by Sean O on Nov 11, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

But Crawford as is isn't impressive offensively.

Unless he can play center or right, he’s wasted in Fenway. Absolutely.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm hoping

my buddy Theo is floating the idea of being yet another Red Sox CF star.

by Sean O on Nov 11, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

If Crawford will play Center Field

I’d be happy to pay him dumptrucks of money.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

but I’d rather have a better chance at signing Lee (who is an elite player) rather than being stuck with Beckett and Lackey (who suck).

Cliff Lee is 32-years old. He had back problems this year. How well do you think he’ll age? He’s going to cost $20+ million for at least 5 years. He’s a great pitcher right now, but that’ll probably end up being a pretty bad contract.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

he's said way back that he's uncomfortable there

it wasn’t anything recent… he and his agent may do well to amend that stance in free agency

by wolf9309 on Nov 11, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

2 more years and an extra $45 million

brings great comfort.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Nov 11, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

There are a number of OF solutions, including standing pat, and a number of IF solutions available over the next several months, but there are few good catching options around. Sure the Sox could sign Werth or Crawford, they could sign Beltre or give Lowrie a shot to start the season at third. They could trade for an corner IF and move Youk to third if necessary. The more I think about it, signing Beltre is the riskier proposition because they are then stuck with him for better or worse and that will take them out of the A-Gon sweepstakes this time next year in all likelyhood.

by Scoop1981 on Nov 11, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

So will Martinez

Does anyone think he will be a catcher at 35? What will we do with him then?

by Sean O on Nov 11, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

VMart is a converted IF, like Posada

His body hasn’t taken the wear and tear of most catchers his age. And his bat has been very consistent. If he’s healthy, I see no reason why he wouldn’t be catching at 35.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I think what he means as that his defense will regress,

therefore making him NOT a viable option, even though he’s still healthy.

embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash

by BoldandBrash on Nov 11, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

And what ever would he base that assumption on?

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Nov 12, 2010 6:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Nobody can know that.

I’m just clearing up the point on whether he can or won’t be able to catch.

embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash

by BoldandBrash on Nov 13, 2010 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

but you can sorta see it's heading that way

He’s not getting any younger, but he could possibly stay the same for the duration of his contract.

embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash

by BoldandBrash on Nov 13, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

There's always DH

Sox have money. If they have Youk and Beltre and can acquire Gonzalez, they will find a place to put his bat.

by wolf9309 on Nov 11, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you mean now, or post-Ortiz?

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by lone1c on Nov 11, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Sick contracts

Is that how you felt when the Sox were pursuing Texiera? How much do you think Cliff Lee or Adrian Gonzalez will get? It is the cost of doing business here. Lee will get over $180 million, maybe more because the Yankees are involved. Lackey got about half as much as Lee will get, just like Victor will get about half the contrat Mauer, the elite player at his position, got.
All these contracts are sick, but the teams continue to line up, so why should we be worried about it so much?

by Scoop1981 on Nov 11, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

The money again

Yes, V-Mart is in fact a catcher and he does not seem as bad as advertised to me. I’m also unsure where this idea that he can only catch for another year or two came from. Varitek is older and still catching. What about Fisk? It can be done, especially if the Sox have him catch only 5 times a week.
4/$60 actually sounds fair for V-Mart to me. Here I go again…the Sox are not the A’s or the Marlins, they can afford to pay for players they want. What else are the Sox going to do with that money? The way I see it, they have plenty of money to spend, if we are using the luxury tax threshold (@ $180mil.) as a “cap”.
Buck seems to me to be the Marco Scutaro solution— a mediocre veteran to fill in until something better comes up. But remember, Victor is also your #3 hitter, a switch hitter and backup 1B/DH. Buck can’t do any of those things.

by Scoop1981 on Nov 11, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Vlad Guerrero,

who doesn’t have a functioning set of knees, stole third on him this season. Martinez did seemingly improve in the latter half of last season, but he was death for long portions of last season. I don’t want to think of what happens if that becomes the everyday.

by Sean O on Nov 11, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

What about his bat?

Victor earns the big bucks AT the plate not behind it. And yes, he did improve, as did the pitchers in holding runners on.

by Scoop1981 on Nov 11, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

HIs bat is only good when he's playing behind the plate.

He’s a crappy 1B/DH bat. Well, not crappy, but very average.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

OK, but he is in fact a Catcher

We can slice and dice this any way we want, but V-Mart is a catcher who can play 1B/DH when needed.

by Scoop1981 on Nov 11, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

For now.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

But at some point, you have to consider the pros with the cons

Right now, he is one of the top catchers in the league, and he can continue that way for at least 2 years, if not more. If for the last two years of his contract, he is relegated to 1B/DH duty, where his bat will still be decent to average, isn’t that worth the 2+ years of top production from an offensively-challenged position?

by travben85 on Nov 11, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Is it? When combined with well below average offense?

And he’s really not worth anything to us as a 1B/DH. Chances are we can find that nearly for free out of our system in 2 years time.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Well below average offense?

Really? OK, hit me with the numbers, becasue I see a really good hitter when I watch Victor.

by Scoop1981 on Nov 11, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, if you look at his career:

V-Mart as a C: .299/.368/.468
V-Mart as a 1B: .313/.381/.486
V-Mart as a DH: .235/.316/.395

He actually had an almost .950 OPS as a 1B in 2009, but in 2010 his 1B/DH #’s dropped a lot.

by South Coast Ghost on Nov 11, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

He was playing with a broken thumb.

And he did come back as soon as humanly possible.

by went9 on Nov 11, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

But when his bat degrades....

We’ll have a catcher just like most of the other teams out there. There is no reason we have to start with suck.

by brogshan on Nov 11, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Vladdy stole 2 bases in that game

In fairness to VMart, Tim Wakefield was pitching. VMart threw Vladdy out later in the year, when Doubront was pitching.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem with that idea

is that it implies we have someone better in the system. It’s not like 2012 or 2013 have a much better class of free agent catchers either. We do have Ibarra, but he’ll need a while. Salty’s there, but I’m certainly not sold on him.

by Maeamian on Nov 11, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think John Buck would be a great replacement

A great replacement would be Mauer, Posey or McCann. There is no great, or even really good, replacement for VMart. If the Sox don’t resign him (and I do agree that they shouldn’t break the bank for him) they will have to settle for an acceptable replacement. And I guess that is what John Buck is.

by brogshan on Nov 11, 2010 1:19 PM EST reply actions  

I would be in favor of signing Buck as the starter.

And if LA non-tenders Martin signing him to a minor league deal to give Salty some competition for the backup spot on the team. Martin may have forgotten how to hit in LA, but I would be interested to see what a change of scenery would work out with him.

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by TheLoneDavid on Nov 11, 2010 1:34 PM EST reply actions  

well, no, I'm much more pessimistic about this than you

My option would be “If they can’t sign Martinez, Buck would be a terrible replacement, but better than any other free agents.”

The fact is that Buck will be looking for a contract based on his career year which was still not very good. His OBP is just unacceptable for anyone on the Red Sox. I’d think signing him would be the lesser of evils if he would agree to a one year, cheap deal, but that isn’t what he’s looking for at this point at least. I’d much rather see them try to acquire Napoli or Martin (both of whom have major downsides, but also have quite a bit of upside) and see them try to give one of them and Salty a chance.

by wolf9309 on Nov 11, 2010 1:52 PM EST reply actions  

Your option is better

Another could be:

(1) Salty
(2) Buck
(3) None of the above

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Aside from Victor, all of these FA catchers are basically the same

Buck, Olivo, Ramon Herndandez, AJ Pierzynski, et al. Yes some are better than the others, but there is not that much of a difference between them all. If this were fantasy baseball (and I know it’s not, but I’m just using it as an illustration), we would refer to this a plateau. VMart is your top choice, and from there we drop off a ton to a second tier with a bunch of interchangeable options.

My point is that Buck is going to be the most expensive of all of these lesser options, probably by a pretty decent margin thanks to his BABIP-inflated career year. So if we’re not going for Victor (which we should), then why pay extra for Buck?

by travben85 on Nov 11, 2010 2:15 PM EST reply actions  

A decent point.

And another one: How many of them are going to be that much better than a Salty/Varitek platoon?

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that's exactly what I was trying to say

If we don’t sign Victor, then why even bother with the rest of them? Unless something interesting presents itself in the trade market (Iannetta, Napoli), we might as well go with the cheap option of Salty and Tek. Even though that is a risky Plan B, if Salty finally figures it out, we’ve struck high-upside gold.

by travben85 on Nov 11, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

And I think I found why they want Buck.

2008-2010

Salty vs RHP: .350/.400
Buck vs LHP: .360/.510

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Yikes

Salty, who hasn’t shown he can catch, will get the bulk of the time.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

But he's not that much worse behind the plate than V-Mart, I expect.

And that combo will cost us at the very LEAST $10 million less.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

So Jared

If you were Theo for a day, you’re saying you would sign Buck to be part of a platoon? That’s your #1 choice?

Just trying to clarify where you stand.

by travben85 on Nov 11, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Keith Law on Buck

FRom today’s chat:

Brian (NYC)

Keith, why would a theoretically intelligent front office like Boston’s be serious lookers at Buck? Isn’t he a disaster waiting to happen, shouldn’t they know that?

Klaw (1:10 PM)

Driving up the price for others? He did one thing well in 2010, and I think that’s a function of a very fortunate schedule. Not the type of guy they typically go for.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Not Necessarily

If Salty begins to show good progression, than Yes. But right now No. He obviously needs work and I think Buck would be a option until hes ready.

I don’t envision Salty being the full-time catcher until maybe next year.

Thats why I say Buck for 1-Year for 4-5 million

by Jared Stegall on Nov 11, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, he probably is

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

it's worth mentioning that Buck has said he doesn't want to be a backup

and that he’ll take a starting job over a part-time job. So unless they really want to overpay for his limited abilities, he would almost certainly be able to find someone that will let him start, not as part of a platoon.

by wolf9309 on Nov 11, 2010 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Or at least a possibility.

If you assume the usual 2/3 1/3 RHP LHP numbers…

.356/.473 or so out of that platoon. Can’t be that much money either.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

But that's where I disagree

I think because Buck is probably the 2nd best catcher in free agency (even if it is a distant 2nd behind Victor), he probably will not come that cheaply. If the price is right, I’m all for that platoon, but it seems like he is going to leverage that career year into some money.

by travben85 on Nov 11, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't imagine anyone ponying up much money for Buck.

$5 million maybe. But not more.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

For one year, right?

Seems like a lot for a guy who will get approx. 1/3 of the ABs.

by travben85 on Nov 11, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not about a guy getting 1/3 of the ABs,

It’s about making the platoon work.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

No I realize that

But if he ends up only playing that much, didn’t we pay for only that many ABs? Just playing devil’s advocate about this platoon idea because it hadn’t really crossed my mind before now… In the end, it’s not my money anyway, so if it works, it works.

by travben85 on Nov 11, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Look at it this way:

If you’d pay $15 million for 3/3 of the ABs out of V-Mart, why not $5 million for 1/3 out of Buck at the same level vs. LHP.

Obviously you’d take V-Mart’s $5 million worth of LHP ABs, but that’s not how free agency works, sadly.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Very well put

And sound logic. What I worry about though is if Salty struggles or gets hurt, we are then left with 3/3 of ABs for Buck, against both LHP and RHP, and that production will likely be nowhere near Victor’s.

by travben85 on Nov 11, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

And if V-Mart gets hurt...

Etc. etc.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Damn.

Got me. Why do you have to be so level-headed all the time?

by travben85 on Nov 11, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Or we can look at

Victor’s slash line vs left handed pitching in 2010:

.400 BA/.431 OBP/.742 SLG

Wouldn’t Victor be a far better platoon with Salty than Buck would be?

Again .400 batting ave vs lefties and an unbelievable .742 SLG.

And this is with a broken thumb for a good part of the year that hurt his SLG from the other side of the plate vs righties.

by went9 on Nov 11, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Not platoon but days off and day games after a night game.

In my line up, Victor is in it as often as possible and not batting 7th or 8th like Buck, Salty, and Tek can be expected to bat. Do we really want a catching black hole at the bottom of the line up? And this after having Martinez prove year after year that he’s a solid clutch at bat in the 3 or the 4 hole. And he kills lefties…. isn’t there also a chance that the pinstripes might have three…CC, Lee, and Pettitte.

by went9 on Nov 11, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah clearly

but he would be a $15 million platoon player for years to come

by wolf9309 on Nov 11, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

DH

What about Victor at DH against tough lefties and sit Ortiz? Victor is not going to platoon with anybody. I hope he is the starting catcher for the Sox over the next few years. I’m all for preserving his health and his bat by having a good backup catcher or two that will catch twice a week, but that is not what I consider a platoon.
Do you know why teams platoon at positions? Because they don’t have a good starter there.

by Scoop1981 on Nov 11, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

My bad on platoon.

I ment, giving Victor days off vs some RHP, not platoon.

You sign Victor to be in that line as many days as Tito can put him in without burning him out like the Dodgers have done with Russell Martin.. So yes, DH here and there vs lefties keeps him in and also spell Youk at 1st when Kevin looks tired. It’s a long season and Victor is a switch hitter.

We will miss him.

by went9 on Nov 11, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Interestingly

Kelly Shoppach would be the ideal vs. LHP side of that platoon.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

They also might buy into the reports coming out of Toronto this year

About how good he was working with their young rotation.

Not that I particularly want Buck, but if it’s true it’s a plus.

by South Coast Ghost on Nov 11, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe that's true

But we don’t exactly have a young rotation.

by travben85 on Nov 11, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Well its 40% young

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by Rogue Nine on Nov 11, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I havn't seen enough of Salty

I’d go with Buck/Varitek

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by Marisa Ingemi on Nov 11, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

we already signed salty.

by went9 on Nov 11, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

Too bad our catcher of the future is gone;)

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by Marisa Ingemi on Nov 11, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I was amazed...

…to read that he actually had a .436 OPS. That’s cartoonishly bad.

Wait 'til next/this year?
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Nov 11, 2010 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

What I have seen from Salty

Is not the greatest. love his defense, but he hit .259 in AAA. I’d like to start him out there, with no pressure. Maybe he takes over later in the season.

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by Marisa Ingemi on Nov 11, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Love his defense? Really?

You’re the only one anywhere ever.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe love is a strong word....

I liked the way he blocked the plate.
I may have exagerated a bit.

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by Marisa Ingemi on Nov 11, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

+100000000000000

Buck would be a waste of, well, bucks.

by dsharp on Nov 11, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Buck for 1-Year with option

Buck had the best year last year of any catcher that is a free agent who’s name isn’t Victor Martinez.

Buck for one year with a club option of some type. That way if he pulls a Marco Scutaro and dissapoints us, we can decline the option, and he’s a Free Agent.

And if a team like the Mets want to give him this multi-year 2-3 year deal, let them.

by Jared Stegall on Nov 11, 2010 2:29 PM EST reply actions  

He's likely to disappoint because he isn't a good player

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Take the Risk

Fine, you are willing to risk having a sucky catcher becasue it fits some kind of a fantasy baseball situation, but here in the real world I want the better player, period. Oh, the money, I forgot. Does that mean the beer and hotdog prices at Fenway are going down?

by Scoop1981 on Nov 11, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's the risk:

Risk having a sucky player on a 1 year deal with an option and wait out the Catcher market or risk having a sucky VMart for a couple years who can’t really catch since he WILL get a multi-year deal. It’s about an even trade off to me and considering the price difference, maybe worth the risk if it allows us to say keep Vmart and sign Werth/Crawford/Lee.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Nov 11, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

When has VMart sucked?

Buck Sucks, his numbers show it. VMart can catch and you have no evidence that he can’t catch for another 3 years or more. Look at Posada. The Yankees have done pretty well with Posada, considered a below average catcher with an above average bat, for many years. Posada is 40. Again, why has it become gospel that VMart is about to fall off some cliff?

by Scoop1981 on Nov 11, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

And, again,

VMart isn’t likely to fit that mold because he is a converted catcher.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Nov 11, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

Posada, another converted catcher, was effective into his mid- to late-30s.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I never said gospel, I believe the word was RISK, which is exactly what it is. If you can’t say 100% what will happen, you’re taking a RISK that the outcome is something other than what you expect with x% certainty.

It is not gospel that VMart will not be an ineffective catcher in 2 years, it is not gospel that he will, there is a RISK he will not.

And that, is what I’m saying might be worth it. A known sucky quanitity for one year or the risk of a known quantity for a couple years followed by a $15 million dollar mistake for two more. Or it could be 3 years of good VMart and 1 of bad, or 4 good, or 1 good and 3 bad or four bad. There are lots of possible outcomes when it comes to a multi-year expensive deal with VMart.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Nov 11, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

At the end of the 2012 season, VMart will be 33-years old

You think he’ll be done by then?

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Read the words. I’m saying there is a

RISK
that he will. Can anyone accept that hypothesis?

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Nov 11, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Every player contract is a risk

Werth is probably as big a risk as VMart, if not bigger because he will cost more money and probably sign a longer contract (Boras client). There are many warning signs with Werth, who is only half a year younger than VMart.

Also, it’s risky to assume that the Sox can lose VMart’s production and still be as good without spending more money (i.e. signing two of Beltre, Werth, or Crawford) to offset the loss. VMart will likely be cheaper than Beltre, Werth, or Crawford. He’ll also probably sign a shorter contract. Werth and Beltre are Boras clients, and Crawford is younger.

I’ve never said the Sox should break the bank on VMart. But the Sox have two glaring weaknesses right now: catcher and relief pitching. Boston has OF options: Drew, Cameron, Ellsbury, Kalish, etc. They have 3B options: Lowrie, Scutaro, Youk. John Buck is not an adequate replacement for Martinez. Downgrading from VMart to Buck will necessitate other moves: FA signings or trades. That can be risky too.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I have Werth and Martinez pegged for four, personally.

Beltre likely 4 also, though three is possible.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Let's see if Scott Boras will settle for 4 years for Werth or 3 years for Beltre

We won’t know until after Christmas, though. Boras clients rarely sign quickly.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

We ascribe Boras more God-like powers than he perhaps deserves

Especially with the non-pitching FA market seemingly in a decline.

The situations he really excels at are ones where one team desperately wants FA A, B, or C, because he somehow manages to play them against themselves. I feel like the Werth-Crawford situation with two top FAs at one position, neither of them seemingly “promised” to any given team, isn’t exactly his specialty.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 11:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I wasn't ascribing any powers to Boras

I was merely making an observation based on his track record of waiting out teams. Another thing to consider:

If the Sox let VMart walk and balk at San Diego’s price for Gonzalez, Boras’s position becomes stronger (assuming the Sox want to continue to be an elite offensive team). Two of the three top impact FA position players are Boras clients.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 12, 2010 9:07 AM EST up reply actions  

beltre may be up to 5 years

a writer writes that the sox won’t offer beltre 5 years.

this could mean multiple things – one being that’s what it may take for the inking.

who knows?

we will be hearing a lot of garbage the next couple of weeks or so.

by Mick Lowe on Nov 12, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

How many times are you going to ignore the simple argument

That money spent on one player is money not spent on another player.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Club Option?

Again Theo would likely offer a 1-Year deal with an option for the next year at best.

And I’m not quite worried about him becoming Victor Martinez in Boston. The need for offense is likely going to be addressed in the outfield with either Werth or Crawford or A-Gon (if that trade somehow works out)

A catcher that could “dissappoint” and hit .260 15+ HR and 55 RBIs hitting maybe 7th or 8th in the lineup is fine with me.

by Jared Stegall on Nov 11, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Not a big fan of AVG or RBI

But since you quoted them, just because Buck hit .281 (with a .335 BABIP) what makes you think he’ll do that again? He is a career .243 AVG hitter with a stellar .301 career OBP. Last year was the only year he had an AVG over .247 and an OBP over .308. He has no plate discipline and is a good, not great defensive catcher.

Last year, Buck was a 2.9 WAR player. But for the bulk of his career, he is roughly a 1-1.5 WAR player. When a player has played roughly 702 career games, why do you think the 118 he played last year are more predictive than the other 584?

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Club Option

Give Buck a year, if he is a bust like you are haphazardly predicting, decline the club option.

Who do you propose we get?

All indications is that Victor is gone. Just saying…

by Jared Stegall on Nov 11, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think DD is being haphazard at all

It’s a bit suspect when a player spends 6-ish seasons playing poorly then has a breakout contract year. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible for him to replicate his 2010, but it certainly is no guarantee, especially considering the elevated BABIP.

Jared, you said you’d be happy with a catcher who hit .260 with 15+ HR, but it’s entirely feasible that he ends up around .240 with 10 HR and a ton of SO (read: frustrating, rally-killing outs).

by travben85 on Nov 11, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Again...

Victor is good as gone…. Rival GM say Tigers or Orioles. It’s just hard for me to see Victor coming back

by Jared Stegall on Nov 11, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s my feeling. VMart is the least likely to return. A lot of teams are interested, some of which will want to hand out the huge multi year for him that we rightfully should hesitate at.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Nov 11, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

plus

we already have varitek, who can do the .240 and 10, plus the SO in key situations…why add another one

by toonman on Nov 12, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

well we no longer have varitek

he’s a free agent and doesn’t seem like either side has intent for him to return to the sox

by wolf9309 on Nov 12, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd rather keep Tek around

And start Salty off in the minors, where he belongs.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 12, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

You mean as a starter?

because even as a backup, after his incredible start, Tek slid down past mediocrity last year pretty quick (even before his injury)

by wolf9309 on Nov 12, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

No, as a back-up

I view Salty the same way I viewed Wily Mo Pena and Jeremy Hermida: as a player that Theo is enamored with for some reason (probably because he was a good 16-17-year old at one time), who isn’t a legit MLB player.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 12, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Apparently the Phils have some designs on him.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Nov 12, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I would love it if they signed him within the next week or so

Wouldn’t have to worry about him accepting arb. We get the Compensation pick automatically.

by South Coast Ghost on Nov 12, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

The SO% kills me.

Buck SO 27.1% of his at bats in’10. Martinez SO only 10.5% of his at bats in ‘10.
Are you going to ask Buck to bat behind Ortiz to give Big Papi protection? Or does Buck bat in front of Ortiz with a career .301OBP?
Ya, he’s really helping your line up. He’ll end up batting 8th or 9th and we’ll have a black hole once again in the 7-8-9.

by went9 on Nov 11, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

No

The Sox are going to get Werth or Crawford, that gives you a 4 or 5 hitter. And Sure Buck as a number 8 hitter kills but look at Beltre.

He struck out 102 times last season. Sure its not great when you have a guy who strikes out 100 times a year, but they can also be very valuable.

1. Ellsbury
2. Pedroia
3. Ortiz
4. Youkilis
5. Werth
6. Beltre
7. Drew
8. Buck
9. Scutaro

Thats not a bad lineup right there….

If we don’t get Werth or Beltre I’m absolutely on board with signing Victor.

by Jared Stegall on Nov 11, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Plus..

If Scutaro bouces back or Lowrie gets more games at short… Thats no black hole

by Jared Stegall on Nov 11, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

bounces back to what?

His one good season? Not gonna happen.

by Sean O on Nov 11, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

I’ve allways been a Lowrie fan.

by Jared Stegall on Nov 11, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

He was having a pretty good season this year

Until you know, he played with a destroyed shoulder. I don’t think he’ll ever be as good as in 09 again, but I think he showed enough to me in his healthy time this season that he is still an alright short stop, exactly what we paid him for.

That being said, I think Lowrie is a lot better and would much rather see Scutaro in a utility role becaus eof that.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Nov 11, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

THIS.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Nov 11, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Buck SO at 27% in '10 and this was his one good year.

111 SO in only 118 games played and only 409 AB… 27%. If he was any better than his career ..243/.301/.421 in the box, I’d overlook the SO’s but he has as good a chance of batting below the Mendoza Line as he does batting even near .300.

Remind me to hit and run when Buck comes to the plate because you can count on him making contact.

by went9 on Nov 11, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not just his K-rate

A lot of good offensive players have high K-rates. For example, Jayson Werth struck out 26.5% last year (and that is his lowest rate in the past three seasons). Buck sucks because he has no pitch recognition skills and no patience. His O-swings are high. His BB-rate is as bad as any in baseball. He also doesn’t make good contact in the zone. In short, Buck is an awful hitter.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

" Sox are going to get Werth or Crawford, that gives you a 4 or 5 hitter."
-——————-

At what cost for Werth or Crawford? Victor may end up signing for less years and less $$ than either of those two and we already have a solid OF. We need a good catcher with a big stick more than we need a $100mil outfielder.

by went9 on Nov 11, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

As I have said before

I want Victor, but Werth more. If we got Buck and Werth I would not complain, but I’d rather Werth and Victor.

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by Marisa Ingemi on Nov 11, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

There are no good catchers with a big stick available.

Only catchers with a big stick and good catchers with no stick.

The outfielders in question, though, are good on both sides of the ball. And our outfield is anything but solid. We’re relying on 38-year-old Mike Cameron fresh out of (48 game) season ending surgery with Drew and Ellsbury? And then next year we’ll need two new guys, and can probably only count for one from our system.

I’ll take the OF.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

I want Werth, not Crawford. I think Kalish can spell Drew after next season, but the Red Sox need a right handed power bat.

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by Marisa Ingemi on Nov 11, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

What do you call Victor?

Last year he batted .400 with a .742 SLG and a 1.173 OPS from the right side of the dish.

Werth in ’10 from the right side: .296 BA, .532 SLG, and .921 OPS.

by went9 on Nov 11, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

But again at what price and how many years.

I believe that both Crawford and Werth will go for more years and $$ than Martinez and Martinez is an average to above average catcher.
Not below average.
And his splits are just so consistent year after year. Dollar for dollar, I’ll take Martinez.

Martinez career splits link

Day, night, left, right, turf, grass, low leverage, mid leverage, high leverage… the guy just keeps on getting it done and does it at the catching position.

He may be gone but no dought we will miss him when he is gone. I will anyway.

by went9 on Nov 11, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

There is no way you can think Victor is an average or better defensive catcher. Really?

He’s not a good blocker or framer, and he can’t catch baserunners. I mean, for crying out loud, he twice last year threw down to 2nd base with a runner on 3rd, allowing the run to score.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know if he meant above average defensively

But taking his catching abilities into account with his hitting abilities, I think it’s fair to say that he is an above average catcher all around.

by travben85 on Nov 11, 2010 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Becoming Victor Martinez???

I’ll take a whole team of Victor Martinez’. When did Victor become this broken down fossil of a washed up has-been? Or is he sure to become Andruw Jones by next May? Reading some of these comments, I don’t know why he is even still in MLB.

by Scoop1981 on Nov 11, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

"Guerrero Steals 3B; Cruz Steals 2B"

Guerrero: 4 SBs, 5 CS. 2 of those were in the same game against Victor.

by Sean O on Nov 11, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

With Tim Wakefield on the mound

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

But how many other, what was it, 7 SB games has he had?

by Sean O on Nov 11, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

No one is saying VMart is great behind the plate

But Sox pitchers don’t hold runners well. More often than not, bases are stolen off pitchers rather than catchers.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

My point stands

It doesn’t happen like that, it simply doesn’t. We’ve had Varitek and some nobody behind the plate since Dougie’s excellent 2004, so we’re not talking about defensive masters. Even with that baseline, Martinez has been capital-b Bad.

by Sean O on Nov 11, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

I am fine with him as a backup to anybody

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by Marisa Ingemi on Nov 11, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Sign Werth

Switch back to catcher.

BOOM

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Nov 11, 2010 2:46 PM EST reply actions  

Takes off glasses

My God…

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Ya... And While We Are At It..

Put Ortiz at short, re-sign Manny, and lets give Mark Belhorn a call….. Grady Little anyone?

by Jared Stegall on Nov 11, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm telling you

Boras wouldn’t even blink at this. He’d just smile while tacking on another $5M per year to the price. Werth can do anything!

by travben85 on Nov 11, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Going to ignorantly Rosterbate for a moment

Werth is in the age-group I rail against so often, but he’s athletic and consistently busts out the mid to high .800 OPS range, and would be great in LF. Crawford is a player who clearly fits the CF mold, and I believe would do wonders in our insane CF. An outfield of Werth/Crawford/Drew is badass, especially until the Kalishes etc are ready.

Try out Lowrie at 3B, don’t resign Victor, and give us a strong outfield for the next at least 4 seasons. Even if Werth regresses, he’s starting from such a higher level than the others. These are the types of players I want to sign, those that are reallyreally good to begin with.

by Sean O on Nov 11, 2010 3:13 PM EST reply actions  

An OF of Werth, Crawford, and Drew would cost $45-50 million

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure would

It would also be very good.

by Sean O on Nov 11, 2010 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Just wondering

What happened to all the Ianetta talk? Did it go away once Olivo left Denver?

If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Nov 11, 2010 3:31 PM EST reply actions  

yeah they let go of Olivo to move Ianetta up full time

they’ve been looking at Martinez but only as a part time catcher/1B platoon with Helton

by wolf9309 on Nov 11, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

He was never coming here

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by Marisa Ingemi on Nov 11, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I still support the Iannetta talk.

I’ll wait until the other starting catchers are off the market/on the Red Sox before I stop, too.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I may be in the minority but

if VMart walks I’d rather see us go get a cheap defensive minded catcher offense be damned! Offense can easily be replaced at other positions.

by BobZupcic on Nov 11, 2010 4:14 PM EST reply actions  

Um, is this supposed to be in sarcasm font?
it will allow Salty to get another season under his belt and hopefully help him transition into the All-Star catcher we all know he can be.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Nov 11, 2010 4:57 PM EST reply actions  

To stay on topic

If there’s not V-Mart? Sign Buck.

Unless he figures to make a killing off his contract year. In which case, ta Hades with him.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Nov 11, 2010 4:58 PM EST reply actions  

Yep

Victor is first option, but Buck would be ok

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by Marisa Ingemi on Nov 11, 2010 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Couldn't this be a smokescreen???

Talk about Buck to lower the interest/bidding price on V-Mart? Eh, probably not.

An Ianetta trade still works best IMHO.

by dsharp on Nov 11, 2010 5:37 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Nov 11, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Iannetta is available

And he is pretty poor defensively.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I think we’ve thrown the good/bad defensive catcher thing out the window, VMart was pretty bad, defensively there isn’t much change from Victor to Iannetta. It comes down to availability.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Nov 11, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Iannetta is preferable to Buck

But while VMart’s and Iannetta’s defense may be a wash, Vic is the better offensive player. Also, Iannetta—who probably isn’t available—will cost a player or players.

Here’s food for thought. Since 2004, VMart has been one of the most valuable best catchers in the game. Below is a list of VMart’s WAR for every year except his injury-plagued 2008. The rankings include both leagues and are by catchers with 350 or more PA:

2004 – 4.0 WAR (6th)
2005 – 5.2 WAR (1st)
2006 – 3.9 WAR (5th)
2007 – 5.7 WAR (3rd)
2009 – 4.1 WAR (3rd)
2010 – 4.0 WAR (4th)

VMart may or may not be in the Sox’ plans. He may end up wanting too much money or years. But he is an elite catcher when you look at the whole package. It’s foolish to think he can be easily replaced, especially by players who are average at best.

VMart is an elite offensive catcher. If the Sox let him walk or he prices himself off the team, the Sox will have to replace the lost offense with other players at other positions—positions, for the most part, where they already have adequate options.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2010 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Certainly not everyone of them.

Just that citing WAR in this situation doesn’t make a ton of sense.

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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 12, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a measure like anything else

It depends on whether or not you buy the defensive stats used for catchers. What should not be in dispute is that VMart is an elite catcher even though his defense is bad.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 12, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Victor is very important for this team. I think people have no idea how much he will be missed if he is not back.

The certified ambassador of all things good and great, here at OTM.
DO NOT OVERPAY FOR BELTRE !!!
TRADE ELLSBURY THIS WINTER !!!
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by gizmosandy on Nov 11, 2010 8:02 PM EST reply actions  

+1

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Nov 12, 2010 6:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Hot Stove Musings 4 do's and 4 don'ts

Do:
1. Sign a great 3B – This should be the 1st among equals of priorities (Beltre is the clear choice and we should be able to overspend)
2. Pay for Bullpen Upgrades
3. Sign a Catcher and go for the best value on offense and defense
4. Stand pat in the OF if the prospects aren’t there by the end of 2011 then sign a FA in 2012

Don’t:
1. Overpay for V-Mart as much as I love him (let him go unless he is willing to sign a short deal not very likely)
2. Go after Werth or Crawford (please pass on them) it just is not a big need as Ells, Cameron, Drew, and Kalish,and the other OF minor leaguers should do the trick. Cameron and Ells should recover – even without them we were ok in 2010 – why commit to a free agent when we should be ok in 2011? If we need to overspend then do it at 3B not OF we have enough depth there and should be fine – unless the ghost of Ted Williams comes back from the dead and wants to play we need to leave this alone
3. Move Youk to 3rd – he is our 1B answer
4. Let Beltre go he can anchor 3B for many years to come and has a very good bat

"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis

by Dave D on Nov 12, 2010 1:40 AM EST reply actions  

So you're saying Ells and Cameron and some relief arms are significant upgrades that will make up for losing V-Mart?

That would take significantly good (and healthy) seasons by both Ells and Cameron. It would also have to be significantly better than what we got from D-Mac, Kalish, Hall, and Nava last year. I’m doubtful we’d get that high a quality from them.

by dsharp on Nov 12, 2010 8:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I am saying our needs at 3B and relief are greater and a healthy team should help

By healthy I mean Youk, Petey, Ells and Cam back. I like V-mart but it looks like he maybe gone. Buck is no offensive V-Mart except he can hit homers so all combined it might not be as bad as we would think

"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis

by Dave D on Nov 12, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Beltre does not have a very good bat consistently

he has an average bat, and I’m not sure if the defense (which will slip with age) can make up for the bat at $15m a season.

by Sean O on Nov 12, 2010 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

But you like Werth

Who is 32-years old, tall, with long arms, and likes inside pitches. How long before he loses bat speed? Werth is also a risk and will probably be asking somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 years/$85 million.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 12, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I can't imagine him getting that deal for the reasons you listed

I’m sure he’ll be asking for it + the moon since Boras is his agent, but I can’t see anyone biting on that. I see something much more Bay-like in his future- closer to 4/$70 million

by wolf9309 on Nov 12, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, no way he gets that sort of deal

I’m thinking 4/65-70. Dude is consistent in the mid-to-high-.800s, and any potential shortcomings are hidden by LF at Fenway. Too much of Beltre’s value is in defense, since he isn’t a great hitter except in contract years.

by Sean O on Nov 12, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

We'll see what he gets

Either way, Werth is a big risk. All FA are.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 12, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Werth is a risk

But he’s starting from a much higher beginning than others. We’re not looking at an .810-.825 OPS, it’s someone who at the moment is much higher. He’ll regress some, a bit offset by moving to the Monster, but his regression year(s) will still be quite good.

by Sean O on Nov 12, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I think a lot of of the reasoning behind getting a Werth or Crawford is because of future need

Drew and Cameron are both gone after next year, and after that we really only have Ellsbury and Kalish ready to be regulars, which leaves an opening in the OF. Next year’s free agent class (Batista, Beltran, Willingham, etc.) might not appeal to the FO as much as Werth or Crawford do.

by South Coast Ghost on Nov 12, 2010 9:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd agree with this.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Nov 12, 2010 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Me too

Although Werth, who is probably a better fit, is extremely risky longterm.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 12, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Don't #2

I would agree with this if we had V-Mart coming back. But I don’t think Ells/Drew/Cameron/DMac makes up for the lost offense of Vmart and the inserted black hole of Buck/Salty/Tek/Scrub

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Nov 12, 2010 6:51 AM EST reply actions  

Yeah that is the downside to losing V-Mart you have to assume (hope) that a fairly healthy team can compete without his bat

Minus the windmill issue you still get the power I like V-Mart and going into the offseason I was really thinking him sign him!!!! However, reading the arguments and considering their points I think if we get him for too long we will regret it. Yet, in all contracts you could overpay and eat the back end – NYY sure does that…

"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis

by Dave D on Nov 12, 2010 7:01 AM EST up reply actions  

By windmill I meant Buck not V-mart I did not type that in for some reason

"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis

by Dave D on Nov 12, 2010 7:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Point:
Yeah that is the downside to losing V-Mart you have to assume (hope) that a fairly healthy team can compete without his bat

Why do you have to assume this? We lose one of our most potent offensive weapons in VMart and then don’t replace it with another one (Werth/Crawford)? Sure, defensive ability will spike with Ells & Cameron back and regular, but Cameron isn’t known to be an offensive force to the best of my knowledge, and while I’m not as hard on Ellsbury as others, I don’t think we can count on him to make up that production, either.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Nov 12, 2010 8:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I was considering a healthy Youk and Petey too should do it not to mention Lowrie

"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis

by Dave D on Nov 12, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Assuming Lowrie is healthy and starts

A healthy Jed Lowrie is a pretty big upgrade over Scutaro.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 12, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

By Windmill I mean Buck not V-mart did not type that right

"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis

by Dave D on Nov 12, 2010 7:03 AM EST reply actions  

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