Red Sox Spoil Yankees Division Hopes With Win In Season Finale
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 5:14 PM EDT
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It was a nice way to go out.
With the Yankees needing a win to stay alive in the A.L. East race, the Red Sox played spoiler and relegated them to a wild card berth with an 8-4 win.
Offensively, this game was all about three players. First, there was J.D. Drew. He only had one hit on the day, but it was a big one, putting the Sox on the board with a 2-run swat in the first inning. David Ortiz, after a pair of singles to start the day, finally dropped down that bunt down the third base line he's been trying for for a while now. Francona pulled Big Papi after collecting three hits in three at bats, earning a standing ovation and a curtain call from the crowd after a resurgent year.
And then there was Jed Lowrie. After walking in the first inning (providing the second run on Drew's homer), Lowrie took a 3-2 curveball and knocked it out of the park for his eighth home run of the year. Two innings later, he cleaned out a Joba Chamberlain Slider, wrapping it around Pesky's Pole for his ninth. That's two home runs from the left side of the plate, where he'd been seemingly vulnerable before, bringing Jed's OPS on the season up to a staggering .907.
On the mound, John Lackey did his best to give his season a positive finish. And he did a pretty good job of it. Striking out ten batters, Lackey's only real blemish was a second inning home run to Nick Swisher. And while he did ultimately allow a couple more runs (one after an error extended the third inning, another after Rich Hill allowed his two-out walk to come home in the eighth), Lackey was able to leave as an appreciative crowd cheered his effort.
With the end of the season, Jason Varitek was playing in perhaps his last game with the Red Sox. It was nearly a storybook ending too, as Varitek launched the last pitch he saw out towards the pen before it died a few feet short. Nonetheless, Varitek got a hero's send-off, being pulled from behind the plate before the first pitch of the ninth inning to a standing ovation as the fans chanted his name.
There were some more ninth inning troubles for Jonathan Papelbon, but it's not worth thinking about at this point. The Red Sox won their last series against the Yankees, kept them from winning the division, and went down with some pride. Sometimes, that's about all you can ask for.
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Thanks OTM
for accepting me into this community this season
Bring in Bard.
"That place was for diehard sports fans. I only follow my team when they're in the playoffs" - Homer Simpson
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 3, 2010 5:33 PM EDT reply actions
It's over, thank god it's over
Now hopefully we’ll fire theo, dump beltre and martinez, and start over. But if nothing else, the miserable 2010 experience is over.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
There's nothing about this team's direction
that we should be happy about.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
OK, then.
We’ll just forget about the Cy Young caliber seasons of Lester and Buchholz, the closer-in-waiting potential of Bard, the possibility of having a SS who can hit like a corner IF in Lowrie, a 2B who wants to get out there and play, a good rookie who plays excellent CF defense, and all the other positives, and just dwell on the bad stuff.
Works for me.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Direction
Not individual people. The direction is problematic, in spite of those positives. We will need a massive change to have even a slight possibility of beating the vastly superior teams in the AL East.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
The MFY and Rays aren't "vastly superior"
A crippled Sox team finished 7 games behind the Rays and 6 behind the MFY. They players and games lost to injuries were easily worth 7 games, maybe more. The Rays massively overachieved, and likely won’t be as good next year. The MFY have a ton of bad contracts, and aging players at key positions. Their payroll was $60 million or so higher than Boston’s. Assuming they re-sign Jeter and a high proced FA or two, the gap between the two payrolls should be even greater next year.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 3, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Vastly superior...infinitely better than we...
We ’ve heard this garbage from you all season.
The Sox were playing .606 ball on June 21 before the team headed out on the road to the disastrous west coast trip where player after player had fluke injuries. Pedroia, Tek, V-Mart, Buchholz, Brown, Wagner all went down…and get replced with Cash, Patterson, and Nava near the allstar break. Ellsbury, Cameron tried coming back but couldn’t. Lowrie was still out. Beckett was still out. Mike Lowell was available but only with one leg. Scutaro was playing but was getting shots in his arm to lower the plan.
A month later we’re playing at a .558 clip and we’re 7 games back.
And you’re saying we only lost a few games to injury…. bullshit.
You are a clone of a guy I work with who hates the FO.
He, like you, will always be negative toward the Sox as long as the GM’s last name is Epstein.
I think Sean O
is really Dan Shaughnessy. I mean really-here are some things he has said today:
a)“The Sox never had a chance to catch the vastly superior Rays and Yankees.” Well-that’s funny, because before VMart, Pedroia and Buchholz all got hurt in one series after about half the season the Sox were 1/2 game behind the Yankees and 4 games up on the Rays, IIRC.
b)“This is really a 90-92 win team anyway”-well let’s see. We lost Youkilis, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Cameron, Tek as just position players. Lets make the (false) assumption that even though our fill-ins in the outfield only put up 1.5 WAR and Ellsbury and Cameron averaged together 7 WAR in 08/09, that we lost nothing in the outfield. The loss of Pedroia/Youk/VMart/Tek (factoring the fact that Cash was the replacement who actually was far below replacement) cost easily 7 wins. Probably more. It is not unreasonable to assume that with a normal season of injuries this team is easily a high 90s to 100 win team.
c) “Other teams cope with injuries-look at the Twins”-well sure the Twins won despite some key injuries. The loss of Morneau is basically the loss of Youk, but for an additional month. Lets say (incorrectly) that that one month is worth (Cash-VMart+Tek) [actually it is worth far far less by WAR], then are we saying that Nathan=Pedroia+Ellsbury+Cameron? Not close.
One can fault Epstein-the pen looked like a joke breaking from Spring Training, and that hurt- but to argue that even with this flaw this team with normal health is not right there with the Rays or Yankees or even superior (that’s what WAR says, but lets not argue about the accounting with WAR) is completely delusional. Even with the injuries our team was superior to the Yankees in team OPS, team starter ERA. Aside from the pen, there were no construction flaws in this team, and you can’t plan for 2 broken feet, a broken thumb, two sets of broken ribs, etc. Even the Yankees fail to reach 90 wins w/o Teixiera, Cano, Granderson, Gardner, Posada and Cervelli.
As I've mentioned before
I don’t read or actually respond to your posts.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
We tried to reason with him in the game thread man
and all season for that matter. Might as well give it up. He’s not a reasonable person
I exercise strong self control. I never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast
Yes, I am
I see a GM who hasn’t made a good move in years, and everyone keeps kissing his ass with each failure. The fact that this fanbase honored Mike Lowell yesterday proves that somehow we’ve become deranged.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
What exactly is the team direction, and what is wrong?
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Sign good but not great 30+ year old players
Who then regress to mediocrity or injury, or outright mediocre stopgaps. No solutions for SS, 3B, C, CF, DH that don’t fit this description.
Hopefully at least Lowrie will prove me wrong.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
but what else are we supposed to do?
It’s not like we can make Heyward’s and Posey’s appear out of thin air.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Simple
DON’T sign good, aging, declining players to huge contracts. Do what you used to do and try to find the muellers and millars of the world, or shell out for the very best.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
You act as if that's an easy thing to do
Who were the Muellers or Millars acquired this year by anyone?
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 3, 2010 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions
The very best don't exist in free agency anymore.
They’re locked up long term until they become good, aging, declining players.
USG
Yankees get close enough
Fatassia and Teix (Yes, I know he had a bad year) are top or near-top.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
And A-Rod was supposed to be.
Teix and A-Rod will be costing the Yankees 20% of their payroll to possibly play like average starters in 5 years. And they’ll be like that for three more years after that.
Barring injuries, we’re in the postseason this year. That’s the goal. To dodge the dry spells that can creep up on any big market team that ISN’T the Yankees when they’re paying guys $20 million a pop to be mediocre for the last 3 years of their deals.
USG
Do you consider Beckett's issues as part of the injuries?
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Half-and-half
He’s not necessarily a dominant pitcher, but like Lackey, he definitely could have been predicted to be a 3.80-4.00 ERA guy.
Excepting, of course, the odd case of the odd years. But if Theo ACTUALLY based his decision on that sort of thing then he should be fired.
I can see it now. “The palm reader said Beckett’s K/9 line is real long. Like, super duper long.”
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Teix
is a career 850 OPS/road 1b signed till 37 at 23 million. He OPSed what Bill Hall did on the raod this year. Great signing.
Hate to correct you, Buzzy
But Teix only makes $22.5 mil a year. :-)
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 3, 2010 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
and even if they were relatively younger,
the would require a 7/100 deal or something. So even that could be mistaken as overspending if it already isn’t.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Great declines to good
good declines to meh. I’d rather go huge on the great than give 12-15m a year to meh.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
As a reminder
If you recall, you were warned for baiting and attacking me in the past.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Dude, don't get banned
You just got back!
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
ha
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
it's a picture,
And reminding him that he’s been warned multiple times for acting psychotically.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
it is a picture of you
or at least someone who reasons as you do.
+1
That right there is hilarious as is Sean O’s unreasonable expectations (the horse is darn funny too). Sean, you clearly lack a sense of humor and take yourself way too seriously. I’ve been wrong on this site before -but, most on here appreciate a redirection when our viewpoint is not correct. Sean, you are entilted to your opinions even if they are unrealistic and untenable. Knowledge is power – free your mind and your ass will follow (please see picture below with the horse).
BTW, the ONLY criticism this year on the FO is the bullpen collapse – again, the upgrade would have been be risky and difficult. And, as some have quipped had we been healthy maybe Theo makes a move? Bullpens just do not come with a guarantee. The bottom line is also that Paps regressed this year way more than expected and that killed us too. He is just not lights out now. so, let’s assume the Sox made the playoffs IMO with the current bullpen we exit in the first round UNLESS we hit our way through each series.
Beltre and V-mart were very good additions and Lowell was a steal – remember his 2007 performance? He was my favorite player a true competitor, a class act and a great teammate. What the hell more could you ask for? He played injured, did not complain even when all the trade rumors swirled. He also is retiring because he knows his career is over. You need to rethink everything you think you know. Just my observations.
"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis
I would too,
but the Yankees have the most money. There are times when it just isn’t possible to get those guys. But if you don’t improve year to year waiting for those guys, then the chances of getting them does increase.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Do you think we should sign someone for 3-4 years when
There’s an extremely high chance that they will be bad for at least 2 of those?
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
no
but first you have to define bad.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Oct 3, 2010 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Lowell's 08-09 seasons were
in line with his career numbers, so it’s not like he went in the tank. IDK what the contract was for, so you could make the case that we overspent, but we knew what we were getting.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Oct 3, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
And knowing what was coming
is why I don’t like the direction. Knowing that we’re making a bad move and doing it anyway is suicide. And doing it once or twice a year is insanity.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
we can't just sign young players,
so who’s supposed to be on the team…washups and possibly unready kids? Is this your theory: don’t make a move if it isn’t great, and sit back and do nothing until an elite player comes along?That’s what you’re implying.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Oct 3, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
well his defense numbers weren't
that’s where he suffered a ton, his defense became terrible after the surgery. In any case, I don’t think there was a better option I can think of when we re-signed him and I don’t remember any indications that he would become as immobile as he did.
Excatly
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 3, 2010 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions
direction sean o
good posts to get the blood circulating on a football sunday
excellent direction – taking a little time to execute – due to a learning curve. sorry to disagree with you (no i’m not)
4 major season ending injuries to the starting offense. 3 starting pitchers doing over 15 days on dl. more injuries – blah, blah, blah. 53 different players – #1 in mlb
yet, 6 wins from 95 (sox goal – minimum). injuries suck.
analyze the injuries – sign the players best available – and stay the course!!!!!
Fire Theo?
Are you related to Dan Duquette or Lou Gorman?
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 3, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Theo Epstein is, afterall, in the "twilight of his career"
Sorry I missed the last game thread, I skimmed it & it seems most interesting.
lone1c gets a rec for his Lackey comment, it was genius.
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
Right
He’s in his late 30s now, and has lost a mile-an-hour or two off his fastball.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 3, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
That sounds like a great recipe
If you want 2011 to turn out like 2010.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Except for all the
multi-year contracts to mediocre players and a truly ridiculous payroll.
Theo: GM for 2 of the 3 most expensive sports failures in history.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
I get that- Minaya might be available soon
Never should have picked up Ortiz. Oh, and that loser Mueller and Mr. Cowboy Up. No one wants to sign Martinez.
Yes, Theo makes mistakes but last I checked so did EVERY other GM including Cashman, Bean, Towers etc.
This team nearly made the playoffs despite all the games lost to the DL by All-stars.
simul justus et peccator
The fact that you're going back to 2003 for positives
Proves my point.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
False. Again.
I exercise strong self control. I never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast
How is it false?
He defended Theo by going to 2003, which is what I said. He didn’t mention anything that Theo has done in the past 6 years.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Not true
The 2008 Mets, 2008 Tigers, 2009 MFY, 2009 Mets, 2009 Cubs, 2010 Cubs, 2010 Mets, and 2010 Tigers all had higher payrolls than the 2006 Red Sox.
The 2006 Sox weren’t good. This year’s team was unlucky. Had this year’s Sox been healthy, they would have easily made the post-season—and probably would have won the division.
Sean, name a GM you think would do a better job than Theo.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 3, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Classy as always Ben
I’ll go with virtually anyone but Bavasi, Minaya, Coletti and Hendry. For $173m, any GM would likely have at least fallen into some success.
Other than Beltre, Theo hasn’t made a good move in years.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Yes, God forbid I point out your shortcomings as you are so ready to do for everyone and everything.
Some success? 89 wins despite losing millions of dollars in value is some success. 2 World Series is some success.
You’re a living, breathing Historian’s Fallacy, Sean.
USG
2 extremely expensive world series rings
One of which was when he actually paid attention to the details, the other of which was a perfect storm of experience and youth.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Yes, extremely expensive.
If you’re going to discredit our rings based on payroll, why on Earth are you even watching a big market team? There seems to be no possible win for you outside of year-in and year-out world series. And that just doesn’t happen regardless of payroll.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm saying
That it’s not some miracle that we fought against the odds to win. We are a rich team that won twice with a very rich payroll, which is… kind of expected, unless you absolutely blow it like the turds who run the Cubs and Mets.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Really?
Since 2003, when Theo became GM, the Sox have been the most successful team in baseball. They have two rings (the MFY, Phillies, Chisox, Cards, and Marlins have only one). They’ve been one game from the WS twice). And they’ve never been the top payroll or always number 2.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 3, 2010 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, so what do you do to have job security on the Red Sox?
Spend less? Do you care? The reason I care about player salaries is because it might handicap the team in the future. But the fact of the matter is that there aren’t that many truly premium talents available at the right part of their careers in FA anymore. Anyone who isn’t 24 when they first come up is locked up semi-long term so they hit FA at 30-32.
So far the bad salaries haven’t handicapped us. Sure it might be nice to spend another $10 million on the bullpen, but every team has its bad contracts and even the big money teams have imperfect areas.
USG
How can we know?
You’re asking if I can prove that we didn’t make a move because of payroll limitations? There’s no way of knowing. I know that we are throwing huge money at bad contracts every year, with no or little return. And these are moves with no chance of remotely being worth it, like Lowell and Lackey.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
OK, let's try and end this.
Would you want to sit back, not improve too much year to year, not really try to be a contender, and then spend a lot to put together a team quickly that can win it all? Then let guys go and be in a down period?
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
I'm saying
Make intelligent moves. If someone like Lackey comes up, who is regressing, don’t pay him. If Lowell has a career year and gets WS MVP, let him go to the Phillies. Context dependency shouldn’t obscure our decisionmaking.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
but if we didn't make some of these moves,
then the team isn’t the best it can be year to year. So if we could make the team better for next year, and the moves weren’t terrific, you wouldn’t make them? I’m not saying we should do whatever because that does hurt in the end, but if we only make great moves, then we will be in for down periods.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
I say
Don’t make bad moves. If a player is slightly above average, don’t give him $10-15m a year when he’s aging. Because there are Lowries around who can likely come close without that investment.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
who are these Lowries?
It’s not like we would choose the expensive guy over the cheap guy if bother were of equal skill. The reason we spend is to make the team better because those guys are better the the current ones. It’s not a guarantee that anybody will perform at any level at any time, but if you have money, you have to try and improve the team.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Oct 3, 2010 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Shelling out cash, years and/or picks
For someone you know has no upside doesn’t do it for me. I’d rather try the kids, or even a player like Hall or Bellhorn who has gaping flaws but is at least a possibility.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
I'm not saying that's wrong,
but that doesn’t work for ME. I would like to try to make the most logical moves, but try to compete at the highest level every year. Going with unprepared kids or Halls won’t do that.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Oct 3, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
While I say
Getting saddled with years of Lugo or Lowell does more damage in the end. Hell, if the choice is between a 90 OPS+ for $15m or opening a training camp in China, do the latter.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
who are these Lowries?
i’m one.
generally, we come from ireland or scotland.
back when the dutch (?) made everyone take sir names, we were a clan that lived by some lake in some mountains thus “lake in the mountains”. this is spelt a million different ways, lowrie, lowry, loughlin, loughery, loughrey, lockery with an ‘o’, with a ‘mc’, with a ‘mac’ etc. i found one relative that his last name started with a ‘D’
i hope this helped.
and thanks for asking
Informative, yes.
Helpful? Not so much. :P
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Context absolutely should.
Money not spent is money wasted. Unless there’s an obvious place to put the money next year that will be significantly better than the use from this year, use it this year.
We can’t just spend $120 million one year, then transfer $20 million not spent to the next year. That’s not how owners operate.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Until next year's payroll is in the tank, no, we didn't.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
We specifically
had money in our budget for Teix, didn’t spend it, and went nuts on a bridge year.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
so spending the extra money
would have gotten tex? You don’t know how much more money NYY would have spent, and you don’t know if Tex wanted to go to Boston anyway.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Oct 3, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't want him
Youk is better … and MUCH cheaper.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 3, 2010 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Not at all what I implied
I’m saying we were in the hunt to get Teixeira, meaning we had at least $20m a year in the budget. We didn’t spend that $20m, and raised our payroll dramatically this season.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Actually
When Mark Teixeira signed with they Yankees, we extended Youkilis and Lester.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I highly doubt
This wasn’t budgeted the entire time. We try to extend everyone, and only Paps avoids it.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
We don't try to extend everyone
But we would have tried to extend them. But we might not have been able to afford it right away with Tex. Wait another year or two to shed contracts, and by then you’re forced into bigger deals after Youk and Lester put up Cy Young and MVP numbers.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't this back up my point?
Don’t sign players like Lowell and Lugo and Lackey and Beckett and you aren’t hamstrung when you need to do something.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Or don't sign players like Tex
Stick in the $$$/year comfort zone. 12-16, 3-5
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
But we've seen what happens
We get no production and pile on the risk for a player who doesn’t produce. There’s no comfort in having a $15m bench player causing a fit and unable to play well.
Has this type of deal ever worked out for us?
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
And anyway
A bad move is a bad move. Signing Martinez to be a $15m DH at. 36 would be a bad move. Signing Beltre for good-to-great defense but a .725 OPS is a bad move.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Not a lot of reason to expect a .725 OPS at all.
Even in Seattle his Home/Road splits implied he’s a .800-.850 guy in a non-cavern.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Beltre
I have concerns about his future. He was a great, great move that I’m happy Theo made, but I am not ready to extend that.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
I'm concerned with Beltre too.
But I don’t see much of a replacement outside of Lowrie, and I don’t see much of a replacement at shortstop, etc. etc. etc.
Not worth giving in to something crazy for, but if his price is at all reasonable, we should be too.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
This goes back to my original point
The only way we have a sliver of a chance to compete is by extending Martinez and Beltre, which are at best an extreme risk, on top of the money we’ve already committed to extreme risks Meathead and Lackey. We have no other solutions to our problems but causing more problems.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Having a bad contract is not a problem.
Having bad contracts that cripple your team is a problem. If they sign Beltre and Martinez to $15 million a year a piece for 4 years, we’re still pretty much not crippled until our minor leagues fail to replace other expensive players (Drew, Papelbon, and even Youkilis) with guys at $400,000/year.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
if we sign them to 4 year deals
Then in 2014 we’re giving $15m a year to Beltre, Martinez, Lackey and Beckett. that’s $60m for 30-somethings who are extreme injury risks. If our payroll remains the same, that means we are getting very little for over 1/3 of our cash. You can’t borrow 1/3 from the future for a good, but not amazing, 2011.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
No doubt that was an extreme suggestion.
But the point was about the prospects. A bad contract is only a problem once you’re forced to pass up on a significantly better option in the future, and even then the option’s benefit has to outweigh the benefit from having the other contract until then.
Basically, you can’t go through baseball looking at everything as a one-year contract. That future option is likely to be another player who will end his contract underperforming his salary.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
But you also can't keep passing off
to the future. You have no idea what the situation could be in 2014. There are solutions to current problems that are going to make it far more difficult in the future, and you have to be certain that the move for today is actually worth it for justification.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
I'm just confused
because it seems like your ultimate team plan in to spend massive amounts of money on a superstar and fill every other spot with bad players on one year contracts. Am I misunderstanding?
by wolf9309 on Oct 4, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, I'm saying I'm sure there's moves we didn't make due to payroll limitations
And I’m saying that this is true of absolutely every team out there. Maybe not the Yankees, but hell, yes, them too.
I’m saying we’re throwing huge money at the possibly bad contracts every year knowing there are no sure things, and that we’d prefer to spread our risk over multiple players likely to be good for a while and then have short years paying them more money for less performance instead of locking ourselves in to an A-Rod or Teixeira deal. Imagine if we had those two contracts right now? Two players not breaking .900 OPS playing corner infield positions (not particuarly well, either). This team would be basically crippled for years to come. Instead we took our risks on Lackey and Beckett, and while they may not be paying off, we’ve got room to maneuver and most importantly we’ll be out of them before 10 years.
USG
There's a difference
Between not being a sure thing and there being an extremely high chance of absolute washout. Signing a mid-30s player who is currently average/slightly above for 3-4 years is not going to return more than 1 solid season. I don’t see that worth it.
Slappy’s deal is intended to be more than simply his production. As for Teix, people have bad years, it happens.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
who are you talking about
Lackey is NOT mid 30s and the mid 30s guys they signed were for 2 years. Try again please.
More than his production?
There’s never been a less marketable MVP. Ever. May as well just give it all to Jeter.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
There's been a less marketable home run king
And that’s exactly what slappy will get paid for. Since when do Yankees fans care about The Game or Morality? Plus, he’s a True Yankee now that he has one, and hopefully only one, ring.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
I mean, not all of them
But a percentage enough to make it unusual and noticeable
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
There are Yankees fans
in friggin Uzbekistan. You see that blasted fascist NY logo in the stands of Turkish soccer games. They will market the christ out of the home run chase, which is why his contract has all those bizarre stipulations.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
A-Rod might not be in that chase very often anymore.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
May not
But the point stands that the contract was a special circumstance, even on a team used to special circumstances.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Only if Daisuke's is a special circumstance.
And then the same argument could be made for guys likes Papelbon, Lackey, and Beckett. You don’t think Beckett and Lackey were marketable going into the season?
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
None have specfic riders on breaking records
They’re paid for performance. Slappy is paid both for performance and the belief in the front office that he will hit more homers than any Non-Oh in history.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
+1
And rec’d
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 3, 2010 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions
GM Sean O would have for sure done better.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
I wouldn't have signed Beckett, Lackey, Lugo
or Lowell. So, that’s a start. And we’d have Hanley at short.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
and we wouldn't have won anything in 07
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
This wasn't what he said
He made a snarky comment, I responded.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
A handsome fella
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 3, 2010 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions
His hair is a brilo pad
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
And this is where it all becomes clear.
We don’t have Hanley. Sean is mad.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
And ...
He blames Theo, even though Theo didn’t make that trade.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 4, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
i am so happy
that the skanks are miserable. 4 billion dollar payroll and they back into the w/c LOLOLOLOOL!!
deo gratis, et missa est
or something like that. with a few breaks and maybe two replacement hurlers, the sox will be golden.
by papoonforpresident on Oct 3, 2010 7:41 PM EDT reply actions
it's from the RC Latin mass and, according to Wiki, Lutheran
and my memory/spelling is crap. it’s actually " deo gratias, ete missa est" . but translated it basically is “thanks be to god, go, this is ended.” too many years ago to quote this stuff from memory but Wiki is always there to correct usage, my HS Latin teacher would be pissed.
by papoonforpresident on Oct 3, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Ite missa est.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Click on this link for a list of the Red Sox 2010 transactions.
Use the “more MLB teams” button and try to find another team with nearly as many 15 day DL trips.
It’s amazing we won 89.
This I agree with
It is astonishing we won 89. Injuries or not.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
It's astonishing that you think this team would only win 89 games regardless of health
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 3, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
We had 2 starting pitchers, 1.5 relief pitchers
no SS, CF, an acceptable LF, and good players in the other positions. In the AL East.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Do you even follow other teams?
The Rays had exactly two good hitters on their team. They also only had two starting pitchers. The MFY had major holes, no SS, and only ONE starting pitcher (one thay pay over $20 million a year for).
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 3, 2010 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
We actually have this guy called Jed Lowrie who is healthy and just raked.
and we have this Marco Scutaro dude that played hurt all year and was still middle of the pack.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Oct 3, 2010 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Hoo boy.
You’re askin’ for it now…
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
and here it comes
He’s had ONE injury. It’s not like he’s been in the league 10 years and had a recurring injury. He’s played 97 in 06, 133 in 07, and 134 combined in 08, so it’s not like he’s never been able to play a full season.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
By the way, got a good laugh out of this classic;
I’m reading over at “Joy of Sox” ( Allan, L-girl and crew are always a good read), and I come across their results for a contest of predicting the 2010 Red Sox record, and who do I see predicting the Sox to win 98 games…………………Sean O
Yep, 98 wins was his prediction.
Sean O 98-64 840 +165
So don’t ever say “we all knew they were a 90/91 win team at most”…or “astonished we won 89…injuries or not”….. you are full of shit.
by went9 on Oct 4, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
interesting...
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Awesome
proves that whatever he says is just crap. What a coward-dude is just someone who waits for the results and then cries and says “gee-fire Theo-I know we would suck, why didn’t he?” He has a mancrush on Hanley and blames Theo for that and that basically is all of the logic behind his statements. he is not only building a “virtual Fenway” he is also building a “virtual reality.”
Buzzy, the turd is a troll and a jinx.
Whenever we had a bad game or a tough loss, you knew the jinks would show up to put his two cents in
.
I took a quick look at his virual garbage site and all he does is hunt out the imperfections and blemishes of fenway, not the beauty or the history of a park approaching it’s 99th year.
Go away troll. You’re jinxing us.
gm - theo
what is the red sox gm responsible for?
how do we measure his performance? or tito’s?
we all have thoughts/feelings about which non player admin/coach did his job or not, but how do we really know?
as far as better gm’s – without knowing what Mr Henry II thinks is a perfect gm – how can you name any?
there are a ton of very good folks out there (beaner, cashmoney, jeb, duke), but do we know that the sox need another gm besides theo? maybe we need a better president, or cfo, or bat boy.
sean o – “vastly superior teams in the AL East.” there is only one superior team in the beast and all of baseball, and one team having a very superior season. but tb’s 15 minutes are up this october.
the yankers are the best organization in all of sports (professional only. amateur sports, as we all know, are dominated by the uconn huskies mens and womens hoops and mens football. too bad boston didn’t have a naacb/f program that was even slightly competitive verse high schools).
see your wife for a couple of ssri’s or better. feed the frontal lobe!
Look at the Twins organization for the best in baseball.
year in year out, changes in GMs, whatever, good farm clubs, good scouting, good player development, and this from a real mid-major market. the MFY had a period when the farm clubs produced talent but the Twinkies have been and still are a class organization. even when they don’t win the Central they have good interesting well balanced clubs.
by papoonforpresident on Oct 3, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
The end times are here.
ESPN just used xFIP and peripherals to show that Hernandez should win the CY Young. They also sorta dismissed wins.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
OH MY GOD WHAT
WHERE WHERE WHERE
xFIP? xFIP?
I’m…I’m so happy.
Actually used…xFIP…Not just FIP? Oh my God…
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Ben
I just wanted to say that you did a terrific job here this season. Thanks for putting up with me.
Oh… and what is xFIP?
Bring in Bard.
"That place was for diehard sports fans. I only follow my team when they're in the playoffs" - Homer Simpson
Join the Lacrosse community The Lacrosse Blog
by bestbostonsports on Oct 3, 2010 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks
Bring in Bard.
"That place was for diehard sports fans. I only follow my team when they're in the playoffs" - Homer Simpson
Join the Lacrosse community The Lacrosse Blog
by bestbostonsports on Oct 3, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
It's FIP normalized for HR
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 3, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
OT
Did you order your season tix for the blazers?
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Nah
I can’t attend every game. But I’ll be at a few for sure
Bring in Bard.
"That place was for diehard sports fans. I only follow my team when they're in the playoffs" - Homer Simpson
Join the Lacrosse community The Lacrosse Blog
by bestbostonsports on Oct 3, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
boo
I can’t wait, especially working in Boston now.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
xFIP is FIP adjusted for HR/FB
Basically, FIP takes the luck out of pitching. K, BB, and HR are all that it considers to be “in a pitchers control”
xFIP takes it a step farther and says that HRs aren’t in control, instead it’s a matter of ground balls and fly balls. It’s pretty well established that a pitcher’s control over how many of his fly balls actually leave the yard is minimal, averaging out around 10% (I think there is some control which falls within, say, 3 or 4%, so 8 or 9 to 11 or 12 percent). So it just adjusts FIP as if 10% of fly balls had left the yard.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks Ben
Bring in Bard.
"That place was for diehard sports fans. I only follow my team when they're in the playoffs" - Homer Simpson
Join the Lacrosse community The Lacrosse Blog
by bestbostonsports on Oct 3, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
does it count IFFB the same as normal FB?
that’s something I’ve always vaguely wondered but never put in the effort to find the answer…
IFFB??
What the Hades is THAT? Infield Fly Balls?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
And is that different than a pop-up?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Once again?
CRAZY TALK
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
This get me thinking about Statistics and Automation and the Future of the Game
Kinda off topic but relevant:
The more I learn about this (realize I grew up on BA, Hits, RBI’s, HR’s, ERA,BB’s/SO’s) the more I am becoming a believer that an automated strike zone with human oversight for the final call would really give baseball a baseline of consistency. When I see the fangraphs strikezone calls I cringe. The current baseline is not universal. The standard varies from ump to ump and game to game. Imagine being a pitcher, catcher or batter and having to figure out how each umpire is calling his own strike zone…I thinnk it is time to automate. The Old Guard fears automation and fights it with the attitude of ‘we are the purists’. With that line of thinking players would still be able to hit runners with the ball to get an out. The game changes.
The old guard (MLB owners and Commissioner, etc) keep it from happening (for now)- but younger guys like me (in their 40’s) see the young guys viewpoints with all the Sabrametrics being a normal part of their discussion of the game – it is the future. We may not grasp all of it, but we do value the metrics.
MLB will adjust- it will take another 10-20 year s when the young guys (sabrametrics gurus) are in their 30’s and 40’s and can influence the game’s new old guard (the current 40+ guys now in their 50s-60s) who will be more open to change since they see the value in stats analysis and are not afraid of automation. Just my opinion on the future climate and cultural changes inevitable in baseball.
"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis
I don't like it
And I’m a young guy (mid 20s). The thought of an automated strike zone seems like death to me. Sure we’d get more accurate in our balls and strikes. And I’m all for getting the call right… But as someone who played the game (albeit it the most amateur of levels), having to adapt to the guy behind the plate was a fun challenge for me. Guarding the outside corner because of a semi-generous strike zone was part of the game within the game, and I love that aspect of baseball.
Now, I will bitch and moan as much as the next guy when an ump has an inconsistent strike zone. Or when Pap clearly strikes a guy out only to have it called a ball (ahem). But I’d gladly put up with the inconsistencies if it meant keeping a robot from behind the plate. Just my opinion though.
I do not agree.
The umps changed the outcome of so many games this year that I was pulling my hair out. And when they started changing the strike zone to speed up the game, I had seen enough.
Bring on the automated technology.
automate now!!!
let the folks ’fraid of improvements bury their heads in dirt – not the games.
fire bud
Anything that pisses off the umpires' union
as much as this would will be o.k. with me.
"If your happiness depends on Boston winning or losing, you have to get a life." Manny Somebody-or-other
Being a Red Sox fan is an emotional commitment; being a Yankees fan is a character flaw.
absolutely!!
save money, reduce price of tickets, improve the accuracy and not have to watch those blind guys fumble around.
they even said that it incorporates things that pitchers can solely control,
unlike ERA.
"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Oct 3, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
One of these days they're going to widdle it down to
Zone% and Whiff% somehow and I’m gonna freak out and jump ship.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 3, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Cashman
Cashman had big bucks. Got hisself a World Series champ!
Before that he got saddled with,,,Igawa, Pavano, Giambi, etc. It goes with the territory.
Theo did a pretty good job of putting together a line-up (except for the bullpen) but injuries did him in. We don`t have the Poseys and the Heywards ready yet, so he did the best he could. Except for lack of a killer instinct in some winnable games (especially against the Rays and the Yankees) and some poor relief work, this team still coulda been in the mix.
I have to agree that I have enjoyed the athleticism and all-out play of young guys like Kalish this year, but they aren`t quite ready yet.
I love the symmetry, if not the outcome, of the season.
Start it off with a win against the Yankees, finish it out with a win against the Yankees.
In other news, for those of you who have been following my recovery, I ran my first mile last night.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
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