Casey Kotchman Traded to Seattle for Bill Hall
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 5, 2010 6:26 PM EST
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PrintNumerous sources have reported that the Red Sox are set to send Casey Kotchman to the Mariners in exchange for Bill Hall, a minor league player to be named later, and cash considerations. The story started when Buster Olney suggested earlier today that the Mariners would be the most likely landing point for the first baseman.
Bill Hall brings added flexibility to the Red Sox' lineup, given his ability to play first, second, and third. Hall also played Shortstop in 2006, managing a 4.6 UZR/150 in 1090 innings. This defense is not matched by Hall's offense, as he only managed an OPS of .596 last year. Hall is signed for $8 million, but the Brewers were already paying $7.15 million of his 2010 salary to the Mariners, and most if not all of that is likely to be included in the trade.
Casey Kotchman came over from Atlanta last year in exchange for Adam LaRoche, who had himself just been acquired from Pittsburgh just over a week earlier. Kotchman was used primarily as a defensive replacement, and struggled in rare offensive appearances, managing a line of only .218/.284/.287 in 95 plate appearances.Kotchman was due for salary arbitration this year, which would likely have meant a bump in his already nearly $3 million salary.
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as long as they include that $7.15 million. Funny that he’ll once again have the opportunity to fill in if Beltre gets injured.
We love it even more
As a Soxs and M’s fan sorry but your getting the short end of the deal. I watched Hall here last year and his good days are past him. He made a struggling Griffey look like he would break the single season HR record.
Kotchman is a every day playing guy not a back up thats why he struggled so bad there. You guys needed a bench player and you got one of those 8th inning replacement guys. When you guys start him is when your going to see just how far his game has dropped off kinda like Andrew Jones.
Story in Seattle is your not getting the full 7.15 mil but instead only getting 4 mil plus the added player. GM Z here wasnt willing to give all the money and two players.
Great defensive signing in Beltre but I sure hope the Boston fans dont think there getting a 300 hitting 30 to 40 HR hitting 3rd Baseman because your not. He will stop everything that comes to him and have only 8 to 15 errors on the season. But his bat doesnt deliver not anymore. His bat reminds me of when Pedroia’s bat was silent. Then again Beltre is looking for only 1 year there a chance to bring his bat back so he can get 15 mil a year. That is why I see you guys holding onto Lowell as insurance to Beltres injuries and his chance of being a 1 year rental.
Oh and one more thing Bill Hall cant hit a Curve ball its his strike me out pitch.
If he's not coming with the whole money, that means the minor leaguer is a decent one, then.
The difference between Kotchman and Hall for us is entirely defensive flexibility. We know he’s not able to hit, but neither is Kotchman in a backup role. I’d be surprised if Bill Hall managed 50 at bats with us all season. He’s there to be an emergency fielder off the bench, basically.
USG
Hmm... I wonder if they'd give us LaHair?
He’s a local boy. I’ve watched his brother play for the Tornados.
Well, if the money is as you say
then its not a great deal. It becomes closer to a wash financially.
He still helps from a roster standpoint over Kotchman since he can play multiple positions.
We don’t need Hall to hit at all. Hopefully he doesn’t get more than 150 ABs for the season, if that.
I certainly don’t expect Beltre to hit 30+ HRs. Why would we expect that? He will probably hit about 25 or so in fenway and put up around an .800-.825 OPS. That will be just fine, thank you.
I'd settle for 15 HR and a .750 OPS
That’s not too far below what we could have expected from Lowell, and Beltre’s defense makes up for the difference several times over.
positions Bill Hall actually plays
The positions he’s played as a starter have been SS (06), CF (07) and 3B (08, 09 until McGehee broke out)
He can also play some 2B and the corner OF. 1B and C are the only positions he doesn’t play.
yeah, he was already a free agent
He’ll get picked up by somebody at some point.
We have 2 African American players now, and I appreciate that.
so some idiot fans can shut up.
Trade Beckett !!!
Well, we didn't exactly sell high on Kotchman
Not really all that thrilled with Hall, but he’ll be okay as a utility guy I guess.
Waiting to hear on that minor leaguer.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 5, 2010 6:54 PM EST reply actions
the most important thing about Hall
is he’s cheap – only $850K for us (Brewers picking up the rest). This frees up the difference between his and Kotchman’s salary.
The second thing is that he’ll provide versatile utility defense at multiple positions, which we needed.
So, overall, a pretty good value pickup, even if one is not exactly impressed with Mr. Hall on a direct level.
he's a little more than that- $1.25 mill
because his total contract is $8.4 million in 2010 and the Brewers are paying $7.15 million.
But yeah, that’s the point- cheaper, more versatile. Pretty good defense, and Kotchman’s bat wasn’t exactly a plus.
nope
in the same way that if we traded Lowell and sent $9 million, we’d still be on the hook for that $9 million taxwise, the Brewer’s are still on the hook taxwise for $7.15 million of Hall’s contract. We just take the portion of it we’re paying.
nope
your not getting the full 7.15 mil For the trade to work you guys only get 4 mil of what Mil sent Seattle. Hall is only coming there as a late inning defensive replacement not to start.
Imagine Big Pappi vs Lefties and thats what you get in Hall vs lefties and righties. wanna see a ugly strike out watch that low and outside curve ball being pitched to him. He cant hit it.
my reading of the tax rule doesn't agree with that
because the $7.15 mil is already covered by the Brewers, whether we get that much or not, so it was subtracted from the Mariner’s payroll for the sake of CBT. His contract, for the sake of CBT is now only worth $1.25 million in 2010- so whether the red sox actually pay more than that, for the sake of the CBT, he only counts as $1.25.
This is my understanding of the rule- you can look at it on page 87 of the MLBPA CBA if you like, because it’s possible I’m misreading, but I’m fairly certain about this.
forgot the link
the CBA is at http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/pdf/cba_english.pdf if anyone feels like checking it.
So even if we aren't getting the full 7.15 from Seattle
we’ll still get the CBT relief – that’s fine.
Is that right?
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
that's what my reading of the rule is
When the Brewer’s paid the cash considerations to Seattle, they took that much of his salary into their payroll, so for CBT purposes, his contract is only worth the $1.25 million in 2010.
Again, though, I could be misinterpreting.
Makes sense to me.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
So what happens if we are paying $4M of his salary like some people seem to be saying?
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
actually after re-reading the section again for a half hour
I changed my mind about what it says, I believe my initial thought was incorrect. It looks to me like for CBT purposes we are on the hook for his salary
HOWEVER
The AAV of his contract is $6 million. I can’t find anywhere that it says the AAV is recalculated when he is assigned to another team. Then we subtract any money they include away from that.
So my understanding now is that if they pay $4 million, the Sox are paying $4.4 million in real dollars, but only $2 million in CBT dollars.
Does that make sense?
Not at all, but that doesn’t mean its wrong.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
right good point
it makes absolutely no sense, but I’m pretty sure that’s how it works.
should have said “do you understand?”
Yes - we totally get that Hall will suck at the plate.
That’s perfectly fine. He’s not here to hit. If he gets more than 150 ABs on the season, then we’ve had a serious injury to someone far more important and we’ll be making a bigger trade to shore that up. They won’t go an extended time with Hall in the lineup.
Yeah, I get it
His versatility is fine, but his production is so low, even for a back-up. I would think Angel Sanchez could produce roughly what Hall could, OBP wise, less power, and would cost much less. I know Kotchman really has no value, but…eh, I’m just really “meh” at this point. Seems like the deal was made to clear up a million or two in terms of the luxury tax.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 5, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
kotchman has so much more value than hall,
that i think it means the prospect will be somewhat significant. add the fact that (i hope) the brewers are paying his salary, and its an ok deal for us.
Slight update from Alex Speier's Twitter:
One last Kotchman note: minor-lg player to be named will come from list of #mariners prospects who #redsox will evaluate in spring training.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 5, 2010 7:31 PM EST reply actions
Sounds good to me
in exchange for Bill Hall, a minor league player to be named later, and cash considerations.
Ideally, enough cash to pay Lackey’s BS salary.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
So, just a look at the value.
If Kotchman and Hall are considered “equal quantities”—which is certainly debatable, but let’s assume they are.
Kotchman will be receiving probably around 3.25 million in arbitration.
Hall will receive 8.4 million.
If we’re only getting 4 million back, that sets the minor league player’s worth at around 1 million.
Of course, I think that Hall is worse than Kotchman for all sorts of reasons. Certainly, he’s much less valuable to the Mariners.
I’d expect this prospect isn’t going to be no-name. He’s not gonna be a top-of-the-line guy, but he’s not going to be insignificant.
USG
Hall really is worse than Kotchman
I know we didn’t really have a lot of options, but we’re pretty much hoping for Hall to continue to be average defensively and maybe bounce back against LHP. Maybe once Lowrie is healthy we can swap them out, I’d be fine with that.
Let’s wait and see how much we’re getting back and who the minor leaguer is before really deciding on this deal
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 5, 2010 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
Hmmm....that would be cool
He was a 2008 ‘Top 10’ prospect in the M’s system. But he’s a 3B/SS who is blocked by Betancourt and Triunfel (who looks real good). He’s young – only 20 yrs old, with good size (6’1", 208) for an infielder. Very raw but supposedly can field, throw, hit & hit for power. Here is some video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrAxLEmq13o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_qyMIbpTx0
He would be a great steal if we can get him. And baseball players are supposed to be named Martinez (Pedro, Edgar, Tino, Ramone, David, Carlos, Dennis, …).
Not a huge fan of that swing.
But it could be worked out.
Anyways, given the value I think Seattle gains sending only 4 million of the Brewers’ dollars over and getting Kotchman, I don’t think Mario is too far out of that range. Add in the Sox’ need for 3B…
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 6, 2010 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
Is lowell still trade bait?
I can’t decide whats more valuable: Lowell’s bat or the 3 million we’d save by trading him.
I'm still not sold on losing Mikey stick for the sake of 3mil and a roster spot.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
[edit: "Mikey's stick"]
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
Eh, with Beltre solidifying our infield Lowell just might be gone too
There’s really no place for him, but it’s not like we’re saving a ton on any deal. I lean towards him being traded, everything up until this point says “Lowell will be traded” to me.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 5, 2010 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
I say so, too.
Hope he gets an everyday gig and does well.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
theres now way he stays on in a limited role.
not for twelve million, and not with his attitude. He’ll be pissed, it’ll be awkward,and he’ll be way overpaid. he has to be traded.
Funny
not so long ago (3 years?) Hall was a 5 WAR player who hit 35 HRs, right? His career OPS against RHP is 810, and he is still young. However all reports are that he has totally lost his offense. Regardless, in the short run, as long as he does not cost a lot (net), his ability to play many positions decently (as UZR shows) makes him more valuable to the Sox even though Kotchman is clearly a more valuable player. Hall is simply the “play anywhere” fill in guy. I hope we get a clearer picture of the financials +prospect soon (well I guess the prospect will wait) but this is ok with me.
Ouch for your fantasy team
Hall has been free-falling in terms of his hitting. The past two years he’s had a lower wOBA than Willie Blomquist. That’s sad. I’m hoping he can pull up a bit before he completely crashes.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 5, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
Bill Hall Never Played 1st Base
As talented and flexible as he is, he could probable do a fine job there too (1st base). The only other positions he has not played are catcher and pitcher.
He just need to get over the Mendoza Line! Which was brought on by ill-advised coaching by the Brewers after his personal record season (2006). I am surprised the Mariners did not keep him especially since it cost them nada. Boston got the best part of this deal.
Well, I am glad he is back on this side of the Mississippi.
He will have a very good year!
whos on bench
Varitek-cant hit
Hall-cant hit
Hermida-hits a little
who else
wont be pinch hitting much
We're not done yet
Figure we’ll have a back-up 1B/OF. Let’s wait and see. It doesn’t look fantastic now, but that could change.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 5, 2010 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
Situationally
Hermida is a career 0.792 OPS vs the Righthanders….he’s Trot Nixon against lefties
Varitek is decent vs lefties 0.807 in 2009.
Dont need OF
Hermida, Hall has also played plenty in the OF. I hope lowrie’s on the bench
I think we need a rhb who can play 1b
I don't see where Hermida fits in
2/3 of our OF is LH, and our main OF bench player is going to be LH ?
Trade Beckett !!!
Ellsbury & Drew
Ellsbury & Drew both hit lhp last yr.
right but Drew isn't AS good against lefties
Ells is actually better against them…
In any case it wouldn’t be a platoon thing but if Drew is going to get rest days it makes sense to have someone who can hit lefties well so that he rests on days he wouldn’t be as effective
Drew is way better against LHP
career OPS 0.804. Ells is equal splits (unlike Drew) but is 0.764 against both.
i wasn't comparing them to each other
I was saying Ells vs lefties is better than Ells vs. righties whereas Drew vs. lefties is not as good as Drew vs. righties. Sorry didn’t articulate that very well.
I like Ells better against lefties than righties because he’s better at getting on base and getting hits against them, which is particularly valuable for a base-stealer/speedy baserunner.
In the end the main point of PI1166
is that you probably wont’ pinch hit for either Drew or Ells just because a lefty is up.
You MIGHT pinch hit for Cameron late innings, close situation, man in scoring and a tough right hander on the mound.
ohhhh pinch hitting
yeah it’s possible, but I feel like Francona likes to pinch hit even less than most AL managers. But yeah, it’s possible.
Thank you
If Cameron was’nt so good on defense he prob be a platoon player. sux against RHP good LHP
Halls RH
Hermida’s hit rhp ok If Cameron comes up in a big spot I’d PH
Always liked Hall
The kid plays hard.
A bullhorn, a bottle of whiskey and a dream. GobblerCountry.com
interesting
Good trade all around, in that Sox get a more versatile bench player who can play some positions needing depth, but what an incredible boost it would be if Hall somehow recaptured his 05/06 magic and we end up with another explosive bat in the middle infield?
Lowell
I don’t see why it would be terrible to keep him as Beltre insurance and to DH when its favorable. He is a ballplayer and a well-liked teammate.
Bad Move
What if Beltre does only slightly better offensively? His defense is not that much of a difference over Lowell in so much as runs stopped. Especially if you factor in Lowell putting up .290+ 22HR 100RBI. My prediction – Beltre a bust and Lowell going to another team and doing great. we replaced a clutch stud with a dud.
the difference between a yankee stadium hot dog and a Fenway frank is that they dont sell yankee dogs in October anymore.
that is just incorrect.
Beltre’s defense as far as runs saved is tons better than Lowell. In 2009, Beltre’s UZR/150 was 21 and Lowell’s was -14.4. That’s a 35 run difference over the course of a season. That’s astronomical.
this man needs to watch the video
Please go to the home page and scroll down until you see the Adrian “Berlte” video.
Watch. Learn.
Whoa Kimosabe
You’ve got a 38 yr old Lowell with a balky hip and busted thumb hitting .290-22-100??
I’ve got one thing to say
REALLY?
Beltre should be as good as lowell offensively
And WAY better on D. Away from sea hes a better hitter
Lowell still has life in him.
Mike Lowell, if any of you remember was healing from an injury that was not due to be fully healed until a full year or so after surgery. Mike is still valuable and can be platooned, fill in for Beltre and Batting for Papi against lefties and learning !B to back Youk. The man can still hit, while his speed will never be 100% of what it was before the surgery, he is a full year older in that tipping over the hill period, but he is not going downhill yet. Watch Mikey this spring, he will surprise everyone. And guys, remember, especially those of you crying about loyalty to a team, he gave up a higher pay just to play for the Sox. He liked the town, the team and you the fans especially…. I wonder how HE feels now?
How is he not going downhill yet?
He’s getting old and getting injured. That’s how it works. His hip injury isn’t necessarily something he’s really going to heal from, either. When you’re that age, sometimes you just can’t do what you could do before.
As for loyalty, I’m really not sure what you’re talking about.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 7, 2010 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
BTW, I hate this deal.
We should have traded Kotchman straight up for players to be named later. Then Considered Adam Laroche. He can hit, play defense and isn’t bad hitting the long ball, and is nowhere as bad against Lefties as Papi or Hall.
How much for Laroche?
He turned a $17M two year deal from the giants. You want to offer him more than that?
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
Simply put he expressly signed with the Sox after Winning a Series, Named MVP and putting up stellar numbers rather than go FA, where he was looking at several million more, in fact had a much higher offer if I remember correctly. He picked the Sox, and he stated those three reasons. I remember it distinctly because I lived in NJ at the time and all the New York commentators couldn’t understand that and couldn’t stop wondering at it EVERY TIME HE CAME TO BAT. He specificly stated he wanted to play in front of Boston’s fans.
As for the Hip, I agree for most of us, an injury like that can be crippling, but this is a professional athlete who beat cancer for heaven’s sake. He played through pain. This was the labrum cuff, not major structural damage. Yes he is getting older, and just added the thumb, but watch… He’ll have a good spring.
Incomprehensible. Please be more specific with your pronouns..
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
He's talking about my post a few up.
The problem with the loyalty thing is that you’re assuming a position by most people that players should be loyal to the teams they played with. Now, we certainly ask that none of them fuck off to the Yankees after purposefully saying they wouldn’t. But we don’t begrudge a guy for going elsewhere for more money. Our loyalty, as fans, is to the team, and the team first. If a player isn’t pulling their weight, or doesn’t fit in the team as it fits, our loyalty will always be to the team. I’m sure he feels a bit angry or betrayed that we want him gone, but at the same time we certainly don’t feel like we’re getting the 12 million dollars we’re collectively paying for him. Long story short, drop the loyalty bullshit.
A hip injury is a hip injury. Especially to an older guy. Athletes aren’t invincible by any means. He beat cancer, sure, but that’s another beast entirely. Once cancer is gone, it tends to be gone unless it recurs. An injury like that, especially to an older guy baseball-wise, is something that absolutely will linger. He’s very much unlikely to regain the ability to play even an average 3rd base defensively. There’s no room for him to start on this team, and he will absolutely want to start, or at least be a super-sub who gets 300-or-so at bats. That’s not going to happen here.
As for tearing it up in spring, well…
That doesn’t necessarily mean much.
USG
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