Forecasting Beckett's Future In Boston
Josh Beckett's future with the Red Sox has been a hot topic as the commencement of Spring Training looms. With pitchers and catchers set to report in just over a month -- and with the outlook of the 2010 club all but cemented -- much of the attention has been redirected towards the organization's plans regarding Beckett's expiring contract.
Despite general manager Theo Epstein's best efforts to assure everyone, Beckett included, that re-signing the veteran pitcher is a top priority in 2010, there has been an enormous amount of speculation surrounding the situation. Scenarios involving an assortment of possibilities have been offered; but what will the Red Sox ultimately decide to do with Beckett?
With so many unforeseen factors effecting the eventual negotiations, it is impossible to accurately depict the result at the present moment. That being said, accuracy isn't necessarily of the utmost importance when speculating. So, impossible or not, let's contemplate Josh Beckett's future in an attempt to forecast the chances that he remain in Boston following 2010.
Josh Beckett's success in Boston to this point can be best described as oft-changing.
Beckett's initial 2006 season in Boston caused many to question his ability to pitch in the American League. After five seasons with the National League's Florida Marlins, in which he went 41-32 with a 3.46 ERA and won a World Series title (and World Series MVP Award), Josh struggled with the Red Sox. Beckett was met with much scrutiny after going 16-11 with a 5.01 ERA in his first season with Boston, and many questioned whether it was the league-change or the weight of signing a lucrative mid-season contract extension that caused the right-hander to falter.
However, Beckett silenced his critics in 2007 after going 20-7 with a 3.27 ERA. For the first time Beckett would be named an All-Star that season; and while he finished 2nd in the AL Cy Young voting to C.C. Sabathia, many believed he should have won after leading Boston past Sabathia's Indians en route to an eventual World Series title.
Unfortunately, the subsequent two seasons (2008, 2009) would be very similar to his first pair with Boston in the fact that they themselves were so different in comparison. 2008 saw Beckett again struggle, while 2009 was a relatively positive season overall.
However you may choose to see it, there's no belittling what Beckett has done in a Red Sox uniform overall. Twice an All-Star with Boston, Josh's real legacy will lie in his postseason prowess and the accolades that he received as a result of his playoff success. In winning a World Series title and ALCS MVP Award with the Red Sox (both in 2007), Beckett truly established himself as one of the game's elite clutch performers.
While it may be the irregularity of Beckett's success with Boston that evokes intrigue involving his future; there are a number of related situations that may have a direct influence on negotiations and, thus, are worth surveying.
John Lackey's signing this off season has been a particularly interesting development in relation to the whole situation. The similarities between Beckett and Lackey are worth noting (playoff comparisons via parentheses): D.O.B. GS W-L ERA ERA+ IP Beckett: 05/15/1980 225 (13) 106-68 (7-3) 3.79 (3.07) 117 1,401 (93.2) Lackey: 10/23/1978 233 (12) 102-71 (3-4) 3.81 (3.12) 117 1,501 (78)
In fact, Baseball-Reference.com uses their similarity score system (first introduced by Bill James) to show us that no other pitcher is more comparable to Beckett than Lackey is, and vice-versa. The 971 score that is compiled for Beckett and Lackey is significantly high for the two right-handed Texas natives, with the similarities ascending beyond the field.
This off season, the Red Sox signed Lackey to a 5-year deal worth around $80 million; a deal that will likely mirror that in which Beckett will ultimately command. With that in mind -- is signing Lackey simply a way to replace Beckett's production 2011, while affording them the services of both pitchers in 2010? With such a relative pitcher [Lackey] already locked-up for the next five seasons, the Red Sox could find themselves in an advantageous position come contract negotiation time. It is important to perform in a contract year for any player, but it becomes exponentially more important when your current team has less of a glaring need at your position, as Boston does with Lackey. Regardless of whether or not Boston is leaning towards re-signing Beckett, they stand to reap the benefits of his performance next season, one way or another. If Beckett does well and commands more than they are willing to pay, the fact that they already have Lackey softens the blow of losing him (again, while still benefiting from his production in 2010). On the other hand, if Beckett struggles, the Red Sox will have the upper-hand during negotiations and can potentially retain him at a lesser price, or avoid extending the contract of a declining pitcher. Essentially, Lackey's presence allows them to gauge the market for Beckett while remaining comfortable with any potential outcome as it pertains to 2011.
Martinez and Schilling. Schilling and Beckett. Beckett and Lester. When successful, the Red Sox have always featured a strong 1-2 punch at the top of their starting rotation; a trend that makes the emergence of Jon Lester an increasingly-substantial storyline. In fact, Lester has actually been more impressive than Beckett the past two seasons as it is (being named the Red Sox's Pitcher of the Year both years). That being said; is a combination of Lester and Lackey inevitably the next sequence in the aforementioned pattern? Lester's consistency can only decrease Beckett's overall appeal to the Red Sox after his contract demands are brought into consideration.
Another development that warrants a certain level of attention in relation to Josh Beckett is, on a number of levels, that of young pitcher Clay Buchholz. The Red Sox opted to keep Buchholz throughout yet another rumor-filled off season, but the offense, despite the recent addition of Adrian Beltre, is still a question mark heading into 2010. One of the biggest uncertainties offensively is which David Ortiz will show up. Will it be the one that struggled so mightily at the onset of last season that his first home run of the season induced a standing ovation at Fenway Park; or will it be the one who finished the year as one of the best hitters in baseball? If it is the latter, Buchholz could again find his name enthralled in trade deadline discussions. In the event that Buchholz is dealt, the Red Sox will find themselves without two of the current starters following the season (the other being Wakefield, assuming his retirement), with the total increasing to three if they cannot retain Beckett; something that makes signing him that much more intrigal to the team's success following this self-appointed "bridge period." Theo Epstein even made a point in the media recently to point out Ortiz's need to be a "force" if he is to remain the full-time DH. One reason that Epstein may have been so apprehensive in dealing Buchholz this winter is that he wanted to see how his offense, namely Ortiz, would perform before moving a valuable prospect such as Buchholz.
Even Daisuke Matsuzaka, despite all reports indicating that he may be in for a breakout season in 2010, remains an uncertainty. Matsuzaka recently went on record saying that his struggles in 2009 were a direct reflection of his choice to play through injury. It has been reported that Dice-K is set to enter spring training lighter and stronger following an off season in which he was driven by the adversity of last year.
Similarly, Buchholz himself is also a pending question mark, as he has been throughout his time in Boston.
By not hastily adressing Beckett's contractual negotiations, it seems as though Epstein has once again put the organization in the best position possible. John Lackey's signing may have been done to ensure that the Red Sox rotation would remain formidable following 2010, while affording the front office the luxury of a 'wait and see' approach regarding Beckett and the previously mentioned players during the course of the season.
General manager Theo Epstein is known for his tendancy to put a price on a player heading into negotiations, as well as his ability to stick to it throughout. Look no futher than Jason Bay and Mark Teixeira's interactions with Epstein in the past when searching for examples of this. Epstein will eventually place a level of value on Josh Beckett and a price to match it -- something that will likely coincide with the circumstances listed above.
Is this Beckett's last season with the Boston Red Sox? It's starting to look that way, but with so many outside factors to take into consideration, only time will tell. Even speculation on the topic such as this is subject to outside influence.
Fans, like Epstein, will have to take a 'wait and see' approach.
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386 comments
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Comments
I agree that Beckett will most likely not return, but I think it’s more heavily-dependent on Buchholz’s progression than it is Dice-K’s. I think Buchholz has a big year…
IMO anyway..
i agree on Buchholz there is a decent chance that after this season he might be considered the 2nd best Pitcher behind Lester
if that happens i dont think the Sox spend 5/82.5 for a number 3/4 Pitcher
by German Red Sox Fan on Jan 12, 2010 8:31 AM EST up reply actions
Why not? We did THIS year.
:(
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
circumstances
are different then. You allready have huge money tide up for a declining overpaid pitcher, really riskin the chances 2014 with 2 old guys getting paid around 35M, who could be busts at that point. Buchholz wouldn be on the Tradeblock anymore. With that defense Beckett could have his best season yet in terms of Era and Wins and shit, basically stats for which bad GMs overpay pitchers for. He could just become way more expensive than Lackey.
by German Red Sox Fan on Jan 12, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Because we did it this year.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
That is what I am mad about
The signing of Lackey pretty much ensures that Beckett won’t be back. We just don’t have the money.
You and me both.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
Yup
I’d rather have Beckett than Lackey.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 12, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Isn't it possible that right now Beckett wants more than Lackey?
Not saying we won’t be regretting the Lackey contract in 3-4 years, but it’s possible, to me, that Beckett wants more than what Lackey got, which is probably about the limit the Sox FO is willing to go with any over 30 pitcher
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 12, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
Sure, it's possible.
But I would say the market has his price set based on the Burnett and Lackey signings. I’m not sure what other pitchers are in the FA class next year, but it seems to me that there are other high-end starters, whereas this year Lackey was best available, thereby pushing up his price.
And, as stated elsewhere, Beckett seems (or perhaps seemed) comfortable here and more interested in WS rings than an extra couple mil. That maybe changes now that Lackey is in the fold, who knows?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
Exactly, who knows?
I’m just not sure it was a choice between Lackey and Beckett. If it was and they went with Lackey instead of signing Beckett to an extension and going after a guy like Harden, then yeah, I’ll be pissed. Unless there was something wrong with Beckett physically.
Right now, you could make an argument that Cliff Lee has a bit more momentum as top pitcher going into next year’s offseason, but unless Webb returns to his old self Beckett is the clear #2.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 12, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Yup.
But it also means we get a year with both of them, which gives us probably the strongest starting staff in baseball.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
Some other points to consider
(1) The development of potential impact players like Reddick, Westmoreland, and Kelly. Bringing in cost-controlled talent will make it easier to afford to pay out another big pitching contract.
(2) Is Beckett eager to take his chances elsewhere in exchange for a bigger pay day? I think Beckett really wants to get another ring more than he wants the extra million or two he could make somewhere else.
(3) Wakefield plans to retire at the end of his current two-year deal (which expires in 2011).
(4) If Theo can build a long-term rotation with four ace-caliber pitches (Lester, Beckett, Lackey, and Buchholz), why wouldn’t he at least want to try? I think that the Sox are more likely to want to keep Beckett than Dice-K, so I would expect to see Kelly replace Dice-K after 2011, not Beckett.
My mistake.
I thought it was a five-year deal, not a six-year deal.
This does create a bit of a logjam for young Mr. Kelly. On the other hand, he doesn’t turn 21 until this summer, so it’s not as if there’s a huge rush.
Because it's only a short-term rotation of four ace-caliber pitchers.
The long term is two ace-caliber pitchers and two overpaid old guys.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
I was thinking more along the lines of a 3-4 year deal.
Beckett at 34 isn’t exactly what I’d call an “old guy.”
But if we're talking a Lackey-type deal, than that's 5 years.
And Beckett is remarkably old for his age. This every other year injured thing, all the home runs of late…
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
But why does he have to be signed to a Lackey-type deal?
He’s said in the past that the money isn’t the biggest issue. A four-year deal may be more than enough to keep him satisfied. (And who knows how long he plans to pitch, anyway?)
Because Beckett also has a pretty big ego.
And Lackey is the easiest comparison by far. We can go live in a world of team loyalties and the like when talking about things like this, but that seems pointlessly optimistic.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
He’s said in the past that the money isn’t the biggest issue.
lol!!!!
great line!
you had me going – for a second or two i thought you were serious. lol
you got me good.
good joke/post
Good riddance to Beckett
He’s always been overrated, from even before we got him. Beckett is too brittle and too inconsistent for a Lackey-type contract.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
-1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 12, 2010 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
negative a million
Beckett is a gamer. Lackey is a whiner.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
-1
Lackey has outperformed Beckett the last 2 postseasons, Lackey is no whiner and Beckett is better but he is ihmo still overrated
by German Red Sox Fan on Jan 12, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
What makes you say Lackey is not a whiner and Beckett is?
I don’t see any evidence of Beckett’s “whining.” I don’t know enough about Lackey to say whether he’s a whiner or not. I do know that at times he tends to show up teammates with his body language on the field.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 12, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
My mistake
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 12, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
Lackey's 2008 ALDS bitch-fest...
…about “the better team not winning” stands out in my mind. There have been other instances that I can’t pinpoint at the moment, and when Lackey was first signed, there were Angels fans who said it, too. And not in that typical Halo Heaven kind of way, but mater-of-factly.
Add that to the body language that you mentioned, which some may choose to call “intensity” now that he’s a member of the Sox and we’re stuck with him but I call hissy-fits, and I get a whiner.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
A Gamer?
Is a gamer injured at least once a season and broken down for the playoffs?
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
he is gamer
he is a gamer because he’s tried to pitch through most of his injuries. The only reason this guy misses games is because Farrell knows he’s hurt and forces him out.
The 2008 season is proof of that and I think last year he wasn’t dominating but I think it was more with him relying on his FB too much and giving up on his curve.
After having heard him be referred to as the Red Sox' "ace" for the last 2 years...
He’s absolutely in that discussion.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
Lester is the ace
And has been since G4 of the ‘07 playoffs. Just because people mistakenly think he’s an ace for a contending club doesn’t make him so.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Beckett sure is overrated
when i hear great clutch performer, best postseason pitcher and all that shit.
Where was that pitcher the last 2 years?
Its all just sample size anyway, people perform close to their true skill level, but because you only pitch a few games u can have the best stretch of the year in that period and the media makes you the greatest poststeason pitcher ever, when that randomly happens twice.
Dont get me wrong Beckett is a very good pitcher prolly top 20 in Baseball, but he is not a top 10 pitcher, he is very good but not great.
by German Red Sox Fan on Jan 12, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
Rankings
From 2009 MLB Rankings
FIP
Lester – 12th
Beckett – 20th
Lackey – 26th
WPA
Lester – 16th
Beckett – 23rd
Lackey – 25th
So basically you could argue that we have 3 of the top 30 pitchers in the league at the top of our rotation…..
FIP doesn't league adjust
All of those guys are probably better than some of their peers in the NL. I’m lookin’ at you, Johnson, Kershaw, and Wainwright.
Rankings
good stuff
how does our 3 match up against the yankmees trio of cc, bj and vasqquez? (or petitt).
even with lacker, i think we will need better than last year out of dice clay.
FIP & Yankees
FIP does league adjust
“Fielding Independent Pitching, a measure of all those things for which a pitcher is specifically responsible. The formula is (HR*13+(BB+HBP-IBB)3-K2)/IP, plus a league-specific factor (usually around 3.2) to round out the number to an equivalent ERA number. FIP helps you understand how well a pitcher pitched, regardless of how well his fielders fielded. FIP was invented by Tangotiger”
Yankees 2009 FIP Rankings
Sabathia – 17th
Petitte – 48th
Burnett – 57th
Not even close
Ooops
Vazquez was 3rd
So
Vazquez – 3rd
Sabathia – 17th
Petitte – 48th
Burnett not even in the top 50
But
Vazquez was in the NL.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
True
But there is a FIP adjustment for league at least according to everything I’ve read.
Bear in mind these are not predictive just the stats. In NO way do I think Vazquez pulls off a top 3 FIP placement in 2010
OK, top 10-20
Sure, but how often are top 10-20 pitchers available? Not too often. If it’s a FA market, are the Yankees involved? The Lee/Halladay scenario is a good one, the Phillies made a great pre-emptive strike when they decided Lee would be a difficult deal and made a move on Hallday. These guys, and I’m including Beckett in the general “these guys”, generally get locked up by somebody or they cost you more money in FA, or money and prospects in a trade. Keep Beckett, you know what you have.
When people treat him like
a 3.00 ERA with 250 K’s, it is.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Beckett's problem isn't the strikeouts...
It’s his increasing inability to keep the ball in the park. I’m willing to bet there’s a reason his HR/FB% is on a steady rise since ’07.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Don't go to the well too many times.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
I hope he figures it out
I remember towards the end of August this year he looked terrible, gave up something like 12 home runs in a 4 game stretch.
I’d go to war with Beckett over Lester any day of the week, unless injured of course. He’s proven, Lester is not.
Then you're crazy.
Lester is plenty proven these last 2 years. Beckett has only proven that he’s inconsistent.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
really what is Lester’s postseason record and ERA, compared to Beckett, throwing out the 2008 stats since he had a torn abdomen. I’m not saying Lester will never be a clutch postseason pitcher he just hasn’t to this point.
2.57, 2-3
But given that the team has scored 13 runs in his combined 6 starts, I wouldn’t be blaming Lester for his record. All we can say is that he’s by-and-large dominated his 42 postseason innings.
Also, you can’t just cherry pick Beckett’s years.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
While I see Lester as the ace of the staff
You can’t overlook the fact that he’s 0-3 4.82 ERA in his last three post-season starts.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 12, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
Again, that is some serious cherry picking.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
If Beckett inconsistent in the playoffs, then so is Lester
Also, if one is going to call Lackey a better big game pitcher than Beckett because of the last two years, why not look at what Lester, an excellent pitcher, has done the last two playoff years?
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 12, 2010 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
OK, over their last 3 games:
Lester: 4.82 ERA
Beckett: 7.82 ERA
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 3:33 AM EST up reply actions
Yup
And the difference is one bad start Beckett made while injured (Game 2 of the 2008 ALCS).
So, neither one has been good. The point I’m trying to make is you can’t kill Beckett for being awful and praise Lester for being great. Over the past two post-seasons, they’ve both struggled at times.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 7:23 AM EST up reply actions
I'm saying Lester's version of struggling is 5 IP, 4 ER
Beckett’s is 4.1 IP, 8 ER.
Beckett hasn’t had a quality start in the postseason since 2007.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 7:35 AM EST up reply actions
It's really just one start
Game 2 of the 2008 ALCS. He got rocked.
His Game 6 performance in the same series, despite an injury, was very good. And last year, he pitched into the 7th, giving up only 2 ER, before Ellsbury’s defensive gaffe allowed 2 runs to score with 2 outs. A good CF turns that into an out.
As I said, only one really bad game.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 9:09 AM EST up reply actions
but more to the point than all of this
is that Lester has been more consistent and plain better over the course of the entire season. We can’t forget the season right?
Are you replying to me?
(It sometimes gets confusing). I think everyone here views Lester as the top pitcher on the team. I know I never said otherwise.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
BTW I do believe that Lester is the ace of the Sox. I just believe that Beckett has accomplished more and is more battle tested.
Sure to both of them.
But Beckett’s battle testing reveals him to be injury prone and inconsistent on a year-to-year basis.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
Lackey's injury-prone too
He only made 51 starts in the last two years (compared to 59 for Beckett).
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 12, 2010 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
Me too
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 7:23 AM EST up reply actions
Do I even have to bother...
…mentioning that I also hated it at this point?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
I think you're all insane
The top free agent starter wants to come play for you. For near market value.
You know you wont be able to improve your run scoring enough to overtake the Yankees b/c the two big bats available are both asking for ridiculous amounts (Bay and Holliday).
So, in order to dramatically improve your playoff chances (and add those precious marginal wins over TB that equate to playoff revenue – up to 30million), you need to dramatically improve your run prevention. Lackey fits that plan perfectly. Since 2005, the only year he hasnt provided more value than what we will be paying him was his injury shortened 2008. Yes, its dangerous to pay a guy for past performance instead of future performance… but Lackey was a 5.5-6 Win pitcher for three years, and then with injuries an issue was roughly a 3.5-4 Win pitcher the last three (2.0 wins in injury shortened 08). So, he’s roughly worth the value we’re paying him if he stays the same guy AND there’s a pretty significant upside here. We also stole him from a team we’ve met in the playoffs multiple times in the last decade.
Beyond the many on field reasons this makes sense, John Lackey is the type of ballplayer we love. He was extremely durable until the last couple years, and put him under our super medical staff and I love the possibilites.
You need as many John Lackeys as you can get. The chances of getting them at a reasonable price are pretty rare, so you never miss one of those opportunities.
plus he didn't cost us any prospects
We still have chips to deal or keep for ourselves.
That's one of the pluses
As is the fact that he makes the team better in the short-term. However, you don’t know how well he’ll pitch in a few years. And, signing Lackey could hurt the Sox’ chances of re-signing Beckett, a better pitcher.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that he makes it tougher (budget wise) to sign Beckett
but the other things (short term value to the rotation plus long term keeping of our prospects) are why I don’t agree with folks who hate the signing.
Its not perfect. But overall I think it was a good signing.
Why does it hurt their chances of re-signing Beckett?
That’s not something we should just assume (as many of you are).
We more than have the money to spend on him and Beckett. Its not a tight fit at all.
Only if we think the budget is finite
and going to be squeezed by other FA signings.
I’m not yet convinced the latter is the case.
Part of me wishes we had gotten Beltre for 2 yrs outright, though – as that would help answer part of the question.
A lot will depend on how the farm prospects develop over this next year.
I don't think it hurts of chances of resigning Beckett
Back when we thought Jason Bay would resign for about the same annual value we weren’t talking about not being able to afford Beckett. Plus we have a huge amount of money coming off the books next year (VMart, Varitek, Beckett’s old contract, Beltre, Ortiz, Lowell, Lugo.)
Except Bay was a hole we now had in our lineup
Whereas Beckett would be less so. He’s not as needed since we have Lackey.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
And the rest, of course.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
How much better is Lackey than the alternatives, though?
We’ve got a guy with a 3.8 ERA here who’s only getting older. He’s a FB pitcher moving into Fenway park. And we’re paying him 17 million a year through his 36-year-old season?
And who are the alternatives? Without him, we have a rotation of Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, Daisuke, Wakefield. And maybe we sign Duchscherer on the very cheap if we don’t sign Lackey.
I’m just not at all convinced he’s much better than the alternatives right now, and I’m convinced that he’s not going to be much better than them in 5 year’s time. And damn if he doesn’t cost big money.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
+2
My hatred of this signing is still strong.
Four years from now? I’ll sound just like Sean O sounds about Beckett, only with a lot more cartoon swearing.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
+3
I’ll admit that at first I wasn’t all that against it, but the more I think about it the more I dislike it.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 13, 2010 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
+1
Beckett more proven than Lester? ’06 was proven?
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Can you cherry pick any more?
So, Beckett is our ace, except when you factor in his atrocious 2006 and the playoffs in 2008.
Lester’s better in artificial turf and domes, guess that means he’s the ace.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
A few disagreements
2008 saw Beckett again struggle, while 2009 was a relatively positive season overall.
Beckett was very unlucky in 2008. In fact, his 2007 and 2008 numbers were surprisingly similar:
2007 – 8.70 K/9 1.79 BB/9 3.08 FIP
2008 – 8.88 K/9 1.76 BB/9 3.24 FIP
Injuries limited Beckett’s IP in 2008. The major difference (besides IP), was that Beckett’s BABIP was lower in 2007 and his strand rate was higher.
While Beckett was good last year, his numbers were better in 2008:
2008 – 8.88 K/9 1.76 BB/9 3.24 FIP
2009 – 8.43 K/9 2.33 BB/9 3.63 FIP
His BB-rate and HR-rate went up from 2008 to 2009.
ERA and ERA+ are not good measures of how good a pitcher is. Here’s a comparison of Lackey and Beckett over the last three seasons based on K-rate, BB-rate, and FIP:
2007:
Lackey – (224 IP) 7.19 K/9 2.09 BB/9 3.54 FIP
Beckett – (200.2 IP) 8.70 K/9 1.79 BB/9 3.08 FIP
2008:
Lackey – (163.1 IP) 7.16 K/9 2.20 BB/9 4.53 FIP
Beckett – (174.1 IP) 8.88 K/9 1.76 BB/9 3.24 FIP
2009:
Lackey – (176.1 IP) 7.09 K/9 2.40 BB/9 3.73 FIP
Beckett – (212.1 IP) 8.43 K/9 2.33 BB/9 3.63 FIP
Beckett has been better than Lackey over the past three years. Beckett has thrown more innings than Lackey (587.1 IP v. 563.2 IP) and has a far better K-rate: 8.66 K/9 (Beckett) v. 7.15 K/9 (Lackey). Before anyone screams that Lackey was injured two of the past three seasons, it should be noted that Lackey’s K-rate of 7.15 K/9 is in-line with his career K-rate of 7.20 K/9. Lackey only has one year with a K-rate better than 8.50 (2005) and only one other season better than 7.50 (2006).
Beckett has always been a better strikeout pitcher. His 8.66 K/9 over the past three seasons is slightly better than his career K-rate of 8.54 K/9. Beckett’s BB-rates have also been better over the past three seasons. Beckett also has slightly better GB% than Lackey, although both pitchers are very similar in this respect.
Based on the above numbers, I think Beckett is the better pitcher. I also think his 1.50 K/9 advantage over Lackey makes him a better fit for the AL East and a small park like Fenway. As for durability, I think it’s a wash. The Sox clearly had questions about Lackey or they wouldn’t have put an injury clause in his contract. I’m not sure how the contract negotiations will go with Beckett. But, I’d rather see the Sox give Beckett Lackey-type money than give a pitcher like Lackey what he got.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 12, 2010 10:08 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
drugs - good stuff
was drugs delaney some dude from providence? is he still dead? i think i knew him.
Thanks
Yep, Drugs Delaney was a character in Outside Providence, and the actor who played him his dead.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 12, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Beckett's tRA followed his LD% through the roof in 2008
Which to me means he was pitching well for the most part, but prone to the mistake pitch, more than just “unlucky”
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
It depends on how he does this year
I think he wants to stay in Boston. So depending on how he performs this year and how much he asks for is what will determine if he stays. If he downright sucks then he’s gone. If he has an average year they might offer him a cheap deal, but I don’t think he’d take that, in which case he’s gone. But if he has a good year or he somehow repeats his ‘07 year then he’s definately coming back, and even if he has that great year I don’t think he’ll demand more then Lackey and that’s fair because they’re numbers are pretty identical with Beckett getting the slightest of edges.
I have much more faith in a big year from Beckett then I do from Dice-K. Infact I have no faith in Dice-K at all. I’d love to get rid of him somehow. He won’t have a big year. Clay might though, I think he’s the most interesting pitcher storyline on the team at the moment. Lester has been flirting with greatness, this year if the Sox want to take the World Series with the way they’re built he has to take that last step I think. If the top 4 pitch to their full potential then all we need is Wake and/or Dice-K to be average. It won’t matter how many big bats the MFY get, good pitching beats good hitting and I think Boston has the better rotation.
Now should we let Beckett go because we have our sights set on, say a Cliff Lee, that is another matter….
Sodomize Intolerance
by sonicdeathmonkey on Jan 12, 2010 10:13 AM EST reply actions
Bye Bye Beckett
Yes, Theo used to say how he really wanted Bay to stay in Boston too.
There is little chance that Beckett stays.
It is too much money to commit two years in a row to starting pitching. Theo expects Buch to beome at least a solid pitcher and will continue to look for bargains to fill out the back-end of the rotation after this season.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
A few things to watch out for:
I think four factors will determine whether Beckett is on the Sox in 2011. The first is the progression of Buchholz, and whether he developes into a solid #2 or 3. The second is the return of a healthy Dice-K and whether he can be a consistent #4 or 5. The third is the level of success Casey Kelly sees in the minors; if he is tearing up AA ball, then I think they see him as a future Buccholz/Lester/Beckett type. The fourth is the state of next years market. With the economy possibly still slow, and the quantity of top pitching talent on the market (assuming Lee or Webb or any of those guys don’t get extensions) Beckett may have to take a cheaper deal.
Dice-K
From Gammons’ latest interview with WEEI
“By the way, in talking to our old friend Mike Roberts, who used to be a college coach but he runs the baseball program at Athletes Performance in Scottsdale, he said that Matsuzaka is in unbelievable shape. He’s been there for about five weeks so far. He said the transformation from last year is astounding”
Good to see Daisuke is taking things seriously.
I’d very much like for this to be a turnaround year.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Commitments
The 2011 Sox are currently committed to 81 Million to 9 roster players (Drew, Dice-K, Lackey, Youk, Lester, Pedroia, Cameron, Scutaro and Wake). That leaves about 70 million (I’m using a 150 milllion payroll) to disperse between 15 other slots including Arbitration. Does Beckett for 15+ million allow the Sox to adequately fill those slots? Then you’ve got decisions on Papelbon, Martinez, Beltre, etc. Gonna be interesting
exactly, the Sox are losing alot of payroll at the end of the year, I’m sure their going to do everything to get Beckett to sign an extension during the year.
I doubt it.
I’m pretty resigned to Beckett being gone. Almost $40M per season to two pitchers seems like too much.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
yankers pay about $60m for 4 sp's
cc, bj, javier, and andy.
it’s expensive being competitive in the east
the best values by far are, lefty lester, clay, and wake.
this will allow us to overpay for lacker and/or beckett or whoever we get next year
but if Beckett and Lackey are both long term committments
we’ll have that much or more than that tied up in 4 starting pitchers in a few years as our young guys start getting more expensive.
And the problem is.......?
We are talking about some good, durable and proven starting pitchers here, so why not try to keep the team intact? I don’t buy this fake salary cap talk, it is fine for the Sox to use the tax figure as a guideline, but they have the money and they will extend to for the right player. Rember Texeira? Beckett is a proven commodity, at least a “tick” better than Lackey, so why not try to keep him around?
Yet again
how is he proven? He’s frequently injured, frequently terrible, and even worse frequently questionable for the playoffs now.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
He is proven
Beckett is proven to be a solid performer as compared to his peers. You all love stats and I don’t hear much stat talk here right now. Is it because the stats say Beckett is a solid starter? Because he is. When the number and results show a performer to be in the top tier of his profession for several years, that is PROVEN!
Frequenlty injured? How do his IP numbers look over the past couple of years?
Frequently terrible? Wow, first Ellsbury sucks as fielder and now Beckett sucks as a starter.
And another thing……..who replaces Beckett? Bucholz? are you sure? Casey Kelly? are you serious?
While I hate the term "proven" (it's really meaningless)
Beckett has been more than solid for the Sox. When Sean hates a player, he can be irrational. Beckett has had injuries. But he hasn’t been “frequently injured,” nor has he been “frequently terrible.”
From 2006 to 2009 (Beckett’s time in Boston), he is 26th in all of baseball in games started. The leader in GS is Bronson Arroyo, who has made 14 more starts than Beckett over four seasons.
Here are the leaders in GS:
Arroyo (136)
Pettitte, Haren, and Lowe (134)
Zito (132)
Sabathia (131)
Cain and Verlander (130)
Livan Hernandez, Garland, Blanton, Buehrle, and Javy Vazquez (129)
Halladay (128)
Marquis, Doug Davis,Lilly, and Suppan (127)
Felix Hernandez, Oswalt, and Johan Santana (126)
Carlos Zambrano and Millwood (125)
Moyer and Harang (124)
Meche (123)
Beckett and Snell (122)
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
Beckett is an arrogant prick
And correct, I will never like him. But he was atrocious in 2006, great in 2007, and sorta meh the last 2 years compared to what was expected. He is undependable, because you never know what you’ll get from him. He goes on month-long skids where he lets up prodigious numbers of homers, then weeks where he’s unhittable.
He still never should’ve been on this team.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
he's only been meh compared to what's been expected
because the media makes it sound like he is one of the greatest pitchers ever. Regardless of consistency issues, he IS one of the better pitchers in baseball and has consistently been underpaid throughout his career (yes even in 2006 I say, because despite pitching poorly quite a bit, he still managed to eat over 200 innings and was paid significantly less then)
I look forward to seeing him get paid
By 29 other teams, or NPB, or the Israeli Baseball League, or the NFL. Anyone but the Red Sox.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Never should've been on this team?
Is there any doubt the Sox don’t get by the Indians, assuming they get that far, in 2007 without Beckett?
Sure, I hope he is arrogant, most overachievers are.
I have no personal issues with Beckett; just win baby.
He was arrogant in 2006
With that fantastic 5+ ERA.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
C'mon
Beckett’s 2006 season is not relevant. Cliff Lee sucked so bad in 2007 that the Indians sent him to Single-A. Should the Sox worry about Lee’s 2007 if he comes on the market, or should they look at what he has done more recently?
Players have bad years. You just don’t like Beckett, Sean. Come to think of it, you don’t like Mike Lowell either. I wonder what those two players have in common …
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
which one?
The one in 2008? Had we gotten to the series that year, barring miraculous players instead in Beckett and Lowell, I don’t think we would’ve beaten the Phillies. Honestly, I think the 2008 Rays were a better team than the Phillies, but the Phillies were just so hot at that point that they were unstoppable. Certainly wouldn’t have been a guaranteed ring for the Sox.
Considering we had no DH, 3B
and only one starter, I’d say the addition of Hanley Ramirez alone would’ve helped significantly. And Brandon Arroho could’ve at least matched meathead’s injured production.
And considering we almost beat the Rays with no DH, 3b and only one starter after Upton hit like Rogers Hornsby for a week, I’d like our chances against the Phillies.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
You're being silly, Sean
When you say that Beckett and Lowell robbed the Sox of an additional ring, are you assuming the Sox would have won in 2007 without those two players? If not, then it’s a wash at best.
But you can’t assume the Sox would have won anything in 2008, if you swap Hanley and a scrubby pitcher like Arroyo for Beckett and Lowell. How would Bronson’s arsenal of hanging curves would have helped the Sox? Arroyo isn’t a very good pitcher.
I understand that you hate those two players. But you can’t make an argument that the Sox definitely would have won two WS with Hanley and Arroyo instead of Lowell and Beckett. Thus, saying that Lowell and Beckett robbed the Sox of an “additional ring” is silly.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
I don't see how
Arroyo + Hanley + ~40m is worse than Lowell + Beckett and 40m out of the coffers. Lugo was so bad beyond belief during his time here that anybody could’ve been an improvement.
But whatever, that’s an old argument. I don’t see why we would give 5/85 to Beckett the player knowing what we do.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
We just gave Lackey 5/$82.5
Lackey is a similar pitcher to Beckett, but slightly worse. Beckett is also a year and a half younger than Lackey.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah. Right there.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
Let me clarify
I don’t see us giving Beckett $85m on TOP of the 82.5m for an aging pitcher we’ve already set aside.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
I agree
And, given the choice, I’d rather have Beckett than Lackey.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
Aging again
We are all aging. OK, there is some risk in signing a 30 year old pitcher to a 5 year contract, but only “some” risk. Why worry about the risk that Beckett or Lackey will be $15 million pitchers in 5 years, while ignoring the potential of having excellent starters for 3, 4 or 5 years.
Arroyo, was traded to the reds
for the greaatest home run hitter and run producer (last known numbers were 903 hrs, 821 rbi’s), willie mo penis.
theo isn’t a gifted horse trader, yet.
he’ll develop
"Beckett is an arrogant prick"
Did he sleep with your girl or something?
Manny ain't the only bad man.
His first interview post-trade
was about how great he was and how he wasn’t concerned with his approach or the transition to the AL, then he got stomped for 6 months while he learned nothing from Schilling or the coaches. He has the arrogance of a much better pitcher.
Partially the same reason I hate Brady. Don’t run your mouth, win rings.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Brady has 3 rings and Beckett has 2.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
And the single greatest loss
in sports history during the super bowl. The one that made the ’04 Yankees collapse look like nothing.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Wait - the SB loss was because Brady was arrogant?
I so confused …
Statistically – i don’t see how the odds against the Red Sox coming back from 0-3 to beat the Yankees are “like nothing” compared to the odds of the NFC Champion NY Giants beating the AFC Champion NE Patriots in one game.
“single greatest loss in sports history”? Nah.
Ever since Mr. Bundchen
met his wife, he’s lost interest in football. This is the same arrogant jackass who said there was no way they would be held below 20 points before doing just that 4 days later.
If you’re the best, like Bill Russell, you can be arrogant. If you’re arrogant and flop immediately following, you’re worthless. That’s why, you know, you shouldn’t be arrogant.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
"Ever since ... he's lost interest in football."
And you know him so intimately …. how?
Do you think that Brady, … err… Mr. Bundchen had any reason for perhaps being ‘confident’ that his team would score more than 20 points?
Nah – you must be right. Arrogance is the only possible answer.
Oooh - and worthless to boot. I almost missed that.
Just sayin'
He apparently used to have the closest spot to the stadium because he was always there. Now, not so much.
I look forward to the day when Any Other Human is the Pats’ QB, then I can follow the club again. After all, Cassell’s Pats were 11-5, and tommy boy’s were 10-7.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
We are way OT
and this probably belongs on the PatsPulpit.com pages.
I’ll just note that the lack of Josh McDaniels and no commitment to the running game probably had a little to do with how this year came out.
No way I'd set foot at patspulpit
I keep my current, and temporary, anti-Pats sentiment off of Pats sites.
When the Sox do stupid crap it’s ok because it’s baseball, but when the Pats have the biggest choke in sports history it’s just not worth following anymore. Football just isn’t that great.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
What Quintuple M said.
Dude. Yer reachin’.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
I seem to recall...
…Beckett and Schill BOTH being dominant in the first half of the season before Beckett dropped off in the second half.
Which set the stage for Beckett to crank it up a notch the second season and be Cy Young worthy.
Perhaps I am…ahem…misremembering.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
Beckett was never any better than average after April.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 14, 2010 6:28 AM EST up reply actions
Hmmm. Maybe not.
I just seem to recall Schilling and Beckett going win-for-win (yeah, yeah…I know….) and the two of them sort of pushing each other. That was the line we were being fed, anyhow. Maybe that was all media hype and the STATS showed a different story.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
didn't mention a salary cap
but there is a reasonable amount of money they’ll be willing to spend. When they think they’ll have Kelly ready to come up in a few years, and they think Beckett will probably be declining somewhat over the course of a 5 year contract, does it make sense to block Kelly with an aging Beckett?
Sure I remember Teixeira, I also remember that they’ve committed a good amount of money this offseason. Teixeira at that point was much more value than Beckett is at the moment, that’s not really relevant to this conversation.
And agreed with Sean here, Beckett has been very good when he’s been on, but very inconsistent and is getting worn down by the end of every year.
Block Kelly?
You believe the Sox should not consider retaining Beckett to reserve a spot for a prospect in a few years? Do I have that right?
it's an example
it would keep costs up by keeping prospects out, limiting what we can spend across the whole roster. I realize you don’t believe that there is such a thing as a budget but it does exist. Shorter term contracts are in the teams best interests because if we sign him to a 5 year contract, then 5 years from now we have two old pitchers each eating up $17 million. You can’t just ignore future teams or we end up eating large contracts.
No Kelly is not a sure thing for the rotation, but it just makes little sense when we have a lot of potential back-of-rotation starting pitchers in the minors to keep that much money locked into aging players. I’ll be happy if they re-sign Beckett because he’s a solid pitcher and great fun to watch, but I don’t think that he’s reliable enough at age 29 for them to still want him guaranteed a huge salary until he’s 35.
I Do
I believe, given the alternatives, that Beckett is reliable enough to warrant a 5 year deal. Don’t worry so much about the final year and 35 is not ancient. Sure, the Sox would prefer a 2 year deal, but that is not going to get it done. So then the decision comes down to wether the “risk” of signing Beckett for 5 years, until he is 35, is mitigated by the return for most, and we hope the full term of the deal. I think it does. You can keep your back of the rotation prospects and I’ll take Beckett.
ok that's fine
we’re allowed to disagree, the team will probably not crumble based on it. I just can’t see the situation where the team would want to be locked into one pretty much immovable rotation for that far in the future, so the only real situation I see Beckett coming back in is if they plan on moving Buch, and I really don’t want to see that happen. I also have no problem if they decide to permanantly increase payroll to the level it’s at this year, I just don’t see it happening.
Immovable Rotation
I like a solid foundation. Why “fear” the prospect of a Beckett/Lester/Lackey rotation for the next 5 years? I’ll relish it.
it's not fear
like I said, I’ll be happy if he returns to the team. Just knowing how Theo operates, I’ll be very surprised to see him lock them both down for long term contracts- it’s not because the rotation would be bad in the future, it’s because the rotation could still be very, very good without him and the money could be used to an area that needs more help. That’s it.
I agree
The Lackey signing makes it less likely that the Sox will re-sign Beckett.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
Because a Beckett/Lester/Lackey rotation right now
Could look a lot like a Lester/Jason Schmidt/Livan Hernandez rotation in 2012, and we’d be stuck in it for years more.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
I have to admit
that while I don’t “relish” the idea of a rotation with two 35 yr old former Aces in it, I also don’t “fear” it if they are still going to be good enough to be among the best #5 & #4 rotation guys. You are still getting pretty good value from them in those deep roles.
In theory, Buchholz and Lester would be your clear #1 & #2 by then, based on Buch maturing and both reaching their peak years. Dice-K might still be the man in the middle or Kelley might be up there fighting for one of those top 3 spots by then. Assuming at least one of them is still pitching effectively to hold onto a rotation spot, then you’ve got the other old (and 35 isn’t really THAT old for a big power pitcher) fart on the last year of his contract as your spot starter / long relief man or someone you can trade to a team that needs to rent a starter for a season.
So it wouldn’t be a total disaster to sign Beckett to a Lackey/Burnett-type contract, imho.
Would not cause me to freak out if they let him walk, either. They should still have a strong rotation for years to come.
Good #4s and #5s
Are so far from being worth $17 million a piece.
Especially given the deep farm system which will likely be producing MLB ready arms for a while.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
depreciation
If you buy a factory machine and pay for it over a period of years, it produces $$ for you at varying rates that is not necessarily correlated with the amount of your payment in a given interval. Once you’ve made more money than the total cost, its paid off, even if you are still making payments.
Whether it will be ‘worth it’ to be paying $17M for a pitcher in year 4 or 5 of a contract depends on how much value you extract from them in years 1-3.
Lowell’s contract is probably a good example – if we believe the Fangraph values, we’ve already extracted more value from him than his entire contract. That’s why it isn’t really a problem that we may end up eating so much of it.
The only place where it hurts is relative to the CBT cap.
Fangraphs WAR valuations are pretty sketchy.
And noticeably exclude the ideas of non-FA players.
Instead of asking “Did we get 82.5 million dollars of production out of Lackey”, we should be asking “Could we have replaced Lackey with a guy like Duchscherer for a year before giving Casey Kelly a shot, and spent that money somewhere we don’t have cheap answers for”.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
I'll give you Duchscherer.
He would have been a much higher value pickup.
But for whatever reason Theo and Co. didn’t have him on their radar. A mistake? Possibly. They also may have known about him and didn’t value him as we do.
Still, that’s water under the bridge. Duch is gone.
Not every choice is going to be perfect. That doesn’t mean other choices are horrible. That doesn’t make the Lackey signing ‘bad’. He has value, both intrinsic and strategic.
Lamenting not getting Duchscherer and hating the Lackey signing will turn you into Sean O, with his undying Beckett/Lowell hatred …
Like I said, its water under the bridge.
The Fangraph values are totally sketchy – but they still allow you to understand the concept. If Lackey contributes significantly to winning in the first 3 years of his contract, the fact that he’s overpriced in year’s 4 & 5 is just part of the price of those prior years. It doesn’t mean you made a bad deal. It just hurts the CBT numbers for those years. If we don’t get enough value out of him in yrs 1-2-3 then yeah, it will totally suck.
I think that if he stays healthy, with this defense behind him, he should do pretty good.
Duchscherer's health is a huge question mark
Lackey’s health has been made light of on this page – he’s actually been remarkably consistent, minus a couple problems the last two years. Neither was the recurring type.
One of the big appeals of Lackey is he goes out and throws 180 IP every year at a high level. They must be projecting him for continued health with this contract (and they have an out, of sorts, if he gets hurt anyway).
I'm not going to hate on Lackey.
He’ll be good for us for a little bit, and possibly longer.
But the deal was a bad deal that should not have been made.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
Dan Szymborski did a ZiPS projection for Lackey's contract
ZiPS Projection – John Lackey
-———————————————————————————————
W L G GS IP H ER HR BB SO ERA ERA+
-———————————————————————————————
2010 13 9 30 30 194.2 197 87 21 55 151 4.02 113
2011 12 9 29 29 187.0 191 87 22 55 146 4.19 109
2012 11 9 28 28 180.0 184 84 21 53 140 4.20 108
2013 11 9 28 28 179.2 185 85 21 53 139 4.26 107
2014 10 9 26 26 168.0 175 82 21 51 130 4.39 104
-———————————————————————————————
Top Comps: Mike Mussina, Bret Saberhagen, Aaron Harang
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/oracle/discussion/red_sox_signed_lackey/
Even in year five he’s projected as an above average starter. That’s not bad at all. This was a pretty good deal for us. Im surprised somebody didn’t step up and pay him more. I think the Angels would have, if given a second chance. The Mets and Angels both were annoyed they werent given a chance to raise their bids (Reagins and Minaya both said this to the press). If youll recall, the Angels denied he had signed when asked (even though he was in Boston for a physical) and claimed they were still negotiating.
Its not a fabulous piece of business for us or anything, b/c the salary obligation is substantial. But the mitigating factors are:
1) Free agency = overpaying. By definition.
2) We needed to add marginal wins. Rays our still on our heels and O’s are getting better
3) There’s some upside here. There is some reason to think that with better medical care/ a new coaching staff he can get back to his 5-6 win levels, or at least a nice bump from where he was.
I just dont get why so many people are down on this deal. No clue why everyone thinks he’s going to fall off a cliff at age 33 or 34. He has all the marks of pitchers who have a gradual decline (other than the two injuries, neither of which was a long term concern). He’s not the type of pitcher who will fall off a cliff if he loses 2-3 mph on his heater.
Those ZIPS projections are actually disappointing to me.
17 million for someone who never breaks a 4.00 ERA?
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
That's park and league adjusted.
ZiPS is bullish on Fenway’s effect on offense. It actually has Scutaro batting .290 something. That ERA+ is definitely below 4.00 in a neutral context, unless the league average ERA has moved dramatically recently…
I'll start off by saying I don't know what ZiPS is/are
but it should be league/park adjusted, since he’ll be pitching half his games in Fenway. He’s a flyball pitcher with a short porch in right, so the concern is that folks’ll be playin’ wall-ball with him every second home start and getting worse as he ages and paying him 17mil/yr to do it.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
Im sorry, how is he a "flyball pitcher?"
Career GB rate of 43.2% and this year it was 44.9%.
That’s not a flyball pitcher.
He came in 36th out of 82 starting pitchers (min 150 IP) in GB rate.
Well, technically, ZiPS is really only saying that he’s not more likely to have a sub-4 ERA than not in any individual season.
I may be quibbling a bit, but I think projections are best seen as the midpoint in an array of probabilities than a single number.
ZiPS gives the odds of a 130+ ERA+ (roughly 3.50 in Fenway) in the next 5 years as 15%, 13%, 11%, 8%, and 4%.
--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com
by D.Szymborski on Jan 14, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
The thing about pitchers is that you’ll almost always expect them to decline over any 5-year period when you factor in the risk of injury.
Pitchers, especially those of free agent age that have lower odds of a huge breakout, are a lot like 85-year-olds. No matter how healthy they are, how in-shape they are, or robust they are, the smart money is on decline.
--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com
by D.Szymborski on Jan 14, 2010 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
Beyond that
Duchscherer instead of Lackey in 2010 could very, very easily mean 3rd place and playoffs. That’s a lot of lost revenue.
Harden? That’s somebody I would have taken a shot on. Sheets scares me more, but him too. I can see the argument for those guys.
Duchscherer? No Way. Has had one full year of starts in his career and his body fell apart the following year.
Lackey really isnt that expensive and we have very few salary obligations going that long. In three years, the only guys under contract are Dice K, Lester, Pedroia and Lackey. For a team in need of adding marginal wins, we got Lackey at a relative deal. We paid him just about market rate. I have zero problem with that
Agree
The Lackey signing gives us the opportunity to get 2 extra wins and considering where the Sox were on the winning curve (projected as 92-93 wins team at that time), overpaying for those extra wins make sens, instead they paid the market value. Which is pretty neat from the marginal value of win angle.
"That was a lot of fun… You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." Jeff Francoeur
"At that time"
Wasn’t that before both Beltre and Cameron?
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
I think Cameron was not included
Scutaro was projected by CHONE as a 3.1 WAR player and having Martinez at the C position will get them in the 92-93 wins territory.
"That was a lot of fun… You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." Jeff Francoeur
Excellent example
I will add that the Red Sox are one of the clear “haves” in MLB, so they can afford to but the more expensive “machines”. Also, while they certainly want to be financially responsible in all cases, they can take the risk and absorb the hit if the contract does not work out.
Agreed, but...
Again, you are all caught up in the last year of the contract, while not giving enough weight to the prospect of having the best possible rotation for the next five years. I will never say any team has “enough” good starting pitching. I will stand by that, instead of worrying about the Red Sox money or money allocation and some nebulous future players they will not be able to sign because they will be broken financially with the Lackey and Beckett contracts.
Most aren't focusing on the last year of the contract
But rather the last two or three years of the contract. And while it looks like a monster rotation in the here and now, will it be a monster rotation in 2012? Or will the money tied up in these contracts prevent us from procuring the “best possible rotation” in that year?
You can decide not to worry about money allocation, etc, but that’s a head-in-the-sand philosophy.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
We don't WANT to do what the Yankees do.
We hate the Yankees.
Also, is this “BJ” thing a consistent mistake or are you poking fun at AJ’s name or what?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
Also, is this "BJ" thing a consistent mistake or are you poking fun at AJ’s name or what?
i can’t remember for sure, but probably a joke. if it’s against the rules or offends, i’ll stop.
let me know
also, i disagree with “We don’t WANT to do what the Yankees do.” i want to win world series. i figure the mr john william henry II way is to win a ws every 3 years that makes this year a winner.
however, i thoroughly agree “We hate the Yankees.”
Why?
Doesnt seem like a problem for two workhorse, top of the rotation types at all.
Especially when we have a young Ace signed to a cheap long term deal (Lester), a mid rotation guy with upside signed to a cheap long term deal (Dice K) and a young Ace upside pitcher still pre arb.
Further… if they thought Lackey was worth that amount, then its a good bet they think Beckett is, too.
Maybe.
But we are going to have a lot of holes next offseason: C, 3B, DH and maybe looking to upgrade the OF. I’m not convinced they will spend that extra cash on another starting pitcher.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
although losing a LOT of payroll
from Ortiz, Lowell, Beltre, Lugo, Beckett, Martinez, Tek. I can’t imagine any significant money being spent towards upgrading the outfield since we won’t be losing anyone and considering what we have in the minors right now (a potential full outfield in a couple of years).
But yeah I think you’re probably right. I think likely, they’ll find someone who will sign a shorter term commitment, if for nothing else, so that Kelly doesn’t have to wait 4-5 years before coming up to the majors (because they clearly think he has the potential to be on the staff in less than that), or even go with Tazawa or Bowden if they have a solid showing in 2010.
One of the reasons I’m most excited for this year is, unlike last year, it really feels like we have another crop of prospects getting close to being able to hit the majors, which gives us a ton of flexibility for the future.
Mainly I expect the 2011 payroll to be significantly lower than 2010.
Yeah.
I expect a short contract to an aging slugger for the DH (and Papi is a possibility), a run at Mauer that we will lose and end up bringing Victor back and resigning Beltre depending on how he does this year.
The biggest problem with having both Beckett and Lackey for big money, is in 4 years, when Youk, Dusty, Lester are all looking for extensions but we have to make choices becuase we have 2 35 year old pitchers making a combined $15-40M.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
I see your point
But, how much do you think Youk will be worth at age 34? Don’t forget, he’s a year older than Beckett.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
True.
But the point is that two enormous pitching contracts limit flexibility. Now, it could be that Theo sees the position prospects working out a higher rate of probability than the pitching ones and therefore wants to invest in FA pitching.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
I agree on Youk probably not coming back.
As for Pedroia and Lester, backloaded extensions with 1 more year left on Beckett/Lackey aren’t at all unlikely. Of course, by that point THEY’LL be getting to Beckett/Lackey’s age too, so eh.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, 4 years
I will worry about that in 4 years. Yes, they will have 2 35 year old pitchers making big money, but will we be coming off a WS championship or two? Don’t loose sight of the goal.
That will be the discussion then. Lackey and maybe Beckett will be close to coming off the books, who knows what players will come around. WAY too long of a horizon to complicate 2010-2011 decisions.
You'll think about it in 4 years?
That’s fine, but I’m sure Theo is thinking about it now. There’s no way to guarantee any kind of WS between now and then. The goal has always been be competitive now AND later, and locking up all that aging talent might not be what the Sox FO wants.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 13, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Aging?
Beckett is in the prime of his career. Sure, we don’t want the Sox to sing him or anybody else to a 10 year deal, but are we really going to worry about the last year of a contract for Beckett when the Sox could lock up the best starting rotation in the game for the next 4-5 years?
I worry about the last 2, 3 years.
Overpaying is overpaying. Yes, we think about that even if it gives us a fantastic rotation, because we’re not the Marlins. We don’t need to “take our one shot”, we can be in the WS mix forever if we spend our money wisely.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
So do not think more than a year or two ahead? If we had done that after the 2004 title, the 2007 WS would have never happened.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
Sure, but...
Decisions have to be made NOW, or at least this year. So your decision is to not consider Beckett for retention because you may need money in 2014 to sign somebody else? kinda weak. No long-term plans are going to suffer because you retain one of teh top 10 starters in the game. If he sucks in 2014, that’s the cost of doing business.
he's unlikely to be one of the top 10 starters in baseball for long
the reason you consider it is because he’s not the only pitcher available. You could take the staff we have now, throw out Beckett, throw in a much worse pitcher, and it would still be a great staff.
It all depends on what he wants or will agree to.
It’s not too far in advance. They need to try to keep the future payroll as clean as possible so they don’t end up with a team full of bloated contracts.
You are right.
But the question is: does he provide enough value now (in 2011-2013) to overpay significantly for the final 2 years of the deal? I don’t know and neither does anyone. But my guess is that Theo is working with some pretty advanced stats and scouts and has a better grasp than the rest of us.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
This
More than that, Theo & the FO are the only ones who have any understanding of what they are willing to pay & what their risk aversion is.
They can analyze it and say something has market value X – but then THEY get to decide whether they value it more or less than the market.
I just seriously doubt paying Lackey $15.25mm at age 35 is seriously going to hamper us
OR that the on field product is going to be a substantially bad value…
Not thinking for the short term means no playoffs though
and that could be 30 million a year lost.
If we have to move a pitcher down the line, we will be able to move a pitcher. You keep as many premium assets (that want to stay) as you can.
yeah they absolutely need to think about the short term
just they can’t throw the long term out the window as well.
At its core, the discussion is, is this Red Sox team still a playoff team with someone else besides Beckett? And is there somewhere on the roster where that $17 mill would be more effectively spent?
just to add to that
in a vacuum, there is no problem with signing Beckett to a 5 year, $17 million extension. It’s just a question of how the team chooses to fill its other holes- which will be plentiful coming up. If they can manage to use a lot of the prospects we have coming up, then it’s absolutely forseeable that they could spend that money on Beckett because our fielders would be so cheap. Really difficult to speculate.
Yes, this is a fair assessment.
Kind of why i’m ambivalent about it at this point.
The entire thing is going to depend on how the 2010 season goes
Maybe Beckett sucks. Maybe one of the other pitchers sucks. Maybe Beckett gets hurt. Maybe one of the other pitchers gets hurt. Etc…
I just dont understand these people drawing a line between the Lackey signing and Beckett staying. That’s absurd. We have the money. Its a very tertiary issue w/ regards to signing Beckett.
We have the money
But we also have other holes. We have no real solution for 3b, CF and DH going into the future. We do have pitching prospects. Why waste money on someone like Beckett?
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
if Beckett sucks as bad as *you* think, Sean
then they won’t waste money on Beckett. And they’ll be plenty of money to spend on a 3B and DH and C (i.e. signing VMart or Mauer).
They won’t need to sign a CF until Cameron’s contract is up and by then, maybe one of the youngsters is ready.
I don't believe Beckett can be good enough
to outweigh our massive holes in a number of areas, since no one can. I also don’t think it’s very likely we get our hands on Adrian Gonzalez any time soon. If it does come down to Beckett vs. solving 3b, DH and CF, the latter will clearly win in my mind.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
+1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
And he fell apart when we needed him
The last 2.
And, Hanley:
5.8
7.4
7.3
For far less money.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
The trade isn't the issue at hand here.
Though I know your hatred of it is your raison d’etre.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
WAR is based on FIP
Beckett is a consistent underperformer of his FIP.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Waste?
What other players? OK , if you tell me Beckett or Lee, I may go Lee. But we have to deal in specifics, not some other, unnamed, unknown down the road players.
The Sox have a chance to lock up Beckett in spring training, if he appears healthy. Why wait until some team get desperate (Angels?) for pitching in November?
1) CF = Not a problem. We have Ellsbury there and a corp of near MLB ready good OF prospects. Cameron is signed for ’11, too!
2) 3B = If we really felt a financial crunch (and we won’t – its being way overstated), we could shift Youk there and find a 1B pretty easily.
3) DH = Not a problem that’s going to require a big money solution
4) 18 Million on a 30 year old 5 win pitcher with upside is not a “waste.” Why “waste” money trying to make the playoffs??
What upside does a 30-something
year old pitcher have? Unless he’s Randy Johnson, and Beckett is not, that’s the decline phase.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
How do you feel about the Lackey signing, then?
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
I don't hate Lackey
So, whatever. I was leery of Holliday, so his not signing was the biggest boon. The Sox obviously seem thrilled to get him, like more than I would’ve expected given the contract details, so that gives me a bit of faith.
I’m totally whatever about the Lackey deal.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Typical
Who said “familiarity breeds contempt”? This is a classic example. Most, if not all baseball observers will rate Beckett ahead of Lackey, so why sign Lackey and not Beckett? Because we expect Beckett to be lights out every time and we see his ups AND downs. Prospects and most free agents tend to be evaluated in a more positive light.
Yes, difficult to speculate
Because nobody can predict the future like that. I believe there will always be opportunites to fill holes with veterans or “good enough” players on a short-term, short(er) money basis. Just look at the recent Cameron, Scutaro and Beltre deals.
"It feels like we have another crop of prospects getting close to being able to hit the majors"
Honestly, we’re not likely to see many NEW call ups. The thing is that the guys who were called up last year are gonna be a lot more ready.
Last year:
Daniel Bard
Michael Bowden
Junichi Tazawa
Josh Reddick
This year:
Ryan Kalish
Dustin Richardson
Mark Wagner
My guess is that the real interesting year will be 2011:
Lars Anderson
Jose Iglesias
Casey Kelly
Luis Exposito
To say nothing of Doubront or Navarro types.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
yeah you're right
I didn’t mean as far as callups go, what I meant is now it feels like it won’t be too long until we have players ready for full-time in the majors, whereas last year, to me, it felt like an eternity. Not that I’m expecting those players to make a dramatic difference in 2010
With the defense the way it is right now and going into the future.
What are the chances they let Beckett walk and take a flier on Brandon Webb? With his injury history, I can’t imagine he’d be more expensive than Beckett unless he magically turns into Zack Grienke overnight.
commitments
good scribe. i like how you broke the beckett re-signing down.
it seems that there will be enough money @ $15m.
the $64,000 question is will $15m get it done?
next years salaries may be tighter than this years. who knows?
what kind of competition will beckett face as a freebie?
we may want to invest in a catcher more than a pitcher. (bye bye vmart & tek – that’s a lot of peso’s becoming available).
Right now it looks like Beckett's main competition will be...
…Cliff Lee
Brandon Webb
Javier Vazquez
Ted Lilly
Jorge de la Rosa
Matt Cain has an option.
Webb can rebound to his old self, but it’s looking like Lee and Beckett are in a class by themselves. Vazquez can approach that, depending on his year.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 12, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
I wager Beckett will be back
I could actually see Dice K traded at some point. They’re pretty fed up with him and his salary is very reasonable. The team loves Beckett and as Gammons has stated, Beckett and Pedroia are the two most admired players on the team. They are the two leaders, the real captains. All the pitchers look up to Beckett and how he handles himself. He’s exactly the kind of player the Red Sox always covet, on and off the field. Why would they let him go? I also think he prefers to stay in Boston, fwiw. I guess we’ll see.
Two myths:
1) We wont have the money to sign Beckett now that we signed Lackey – FALSE. We have a ton of money coming off the books next year. We can easily afford him, re-sign VMart and sign a top free agent and still have a lower salary in ’11 than in ’10. Lowell, Lugo and Ortiz are all coming off the books. If Ortiz returns (something far less likely than Beckett) it will be at a substantial discount.
Also, Dice K and Lester are paid extremely reasonable (as is Buchholz, obviously). So its not like we have so much money tied up in pitching that we cant or wont sign Beckett.
2) We wont need him if Buchholz steps up and Dice K returns to form – FALSE. Wake is pretty much done as a full season starter. He cant be counted on and the chances of him returning in ‘11 are 50/50 at best. That gives us a rotation of Lester-Beckett-Lackey-Buchholz-Dice K. Where’s the need to shed Beckett there…?
The three guys who really might be able to convince us we can get by without him are Kelly, Tazawa and Bowden. I doubt Bowden does it. He’s useful, but might end up better utilized in relief or as trade bait. Tazawa is basically the same thing, but a little better. Neither has anywhere near the upside of a Beckett – theyre mid rotation types at best. Kelly? He might, but it would take a lot of doing, since he’s only had one full pro season and hasnt pitched above A Ball. Unlikely they feel comfortable slotting him in the rotation for 2011, though not impossible.
Other concerns are: a) Guys get injured. Lets see which starters make it through the year w/out injuries that effect ’11. b) We may need to trade for a big bat this year, and Adrian Gonzalez and perhaps others are on our radar. If that happens, Kelly could be gone just like that. Who else is ready to step in that would make us pass on Beckett…?
I actually think the chance of him returning is something like 75%/25%. He’s been very happy here, so happy he negotiated an extension after like his first month here. Its been a very happy marriage. He’s probably not going to ask for anything ridiculous… the market was pretty much set for him with this Lackey deal. I have a hard time believing the Sox would offer Lackey that deal and not Beckett. I think it takes a litle more than that, but gets done.
They would probably have traded Dice-K already
If it weren’t for his DL stints, and the fact that they’d need to get his permission first, since his contract contains a no-trade clause.
Also, I’m pretty sure Kelly is untouchable at this point, unless it’s something absolutely absurd—like A-Gon for Kelly straight up. And even then Epstein might not pull the trigger.
In that case, he would pull the trigger SO fast.
I’m still convinced Theo was trying to increase Kelly’s trade value earlier.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
your myth 2
i disagree: so when Buchholz und Dice-K both look good this year we indeed dont need Beckett
Lester-Buchholz-Lackey-Dice-K-Wake/Tazawa/Bowden.
It has nothing to do with Wake gone but we dont need to spend 17M over 5. Spending the money on C/3B/DH instead might be the smarter. With the Old Dice-K im pretty happy as our number 4 in the playoffs
by German Red Sox Fan on Jan 12, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not that we are not able to afford Lackey and Beckett, it’s that Theo will not want to put such a large portion of future payroll commitment towards two pitchers.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
Well Said alskor
I agree with everything you said, with the exception of the last paragraph about Beckett accepting some type of “hometown discount”. I have no reason to believe that he is unhappy here, but it will take the market rate to sign him, nothing less.
I believe the Sox should strike first and offer him a Lackey deal $1 million more/season in spring training. The market has been set by the Lackey and Halladay deals (Beckett falling in between), so the parameters should be set. Why early? Because we don’t know what will happen with the Yankees. What if Sabbithia or Burnett gets hurt? Burnett could easily be a bust during the season, making the Yankees potential bidders for Beckett after 2010.
It’s like there are two markets – the free agent market and the free agent market with the Yankees bidding. That being said, the Sox could maintain the Yankees will be making a push for Cliff Lee anyway, limiting the potential payday for Beckett. Lee will be leaving Seattle, and I doubt Beckett will want to go there. I don’t see any reason this deal can’t or shouldn’t get done. The unknown, and most important factor here is the thinking of Beckett. Is he willing to turn down $90 million from the Red Sox in March hoping he can cash a bigger deal in November? We have no way of actually knowing that, although recent evidence suggests he prefers stability, since he took a very reasonable extension deal a couple of years ago.
I think both Beckett and the Sox wait until May or June
then we see a deal. Decent chance it happens in Spring, but Beckett wants to prove he’s himself and the Sox would love to see it. His last extension was signed in July, but IIRC was wrapped up well before then.
Response
Here is a stab at it
Current Commitments 2011 (in mil):
Lackey – 15.95
Drew – 14.00
Youk – 12.25
Dice-K 10.33
Cameron – 7.75
Lester – 5.75
Pedroia – 5.75
Scutaro – 5.5
Wake – 1.5
Tazawa – 1.15
Buyouts – 1.5 (Beltre, Hall)
This puts the Sox at 81.44 mil
- Say Beckett signs for a Lackey-like deal – 15.95, makes the commitment 97.39 mil
- Say Martinez is signed for say 13.5 mil, makes the commitment 110.89 mil
- Papelbon goes to arbitration yet again and garners 10 mil, commitment now 120.89 mil
That leaves about 30 – 40 million for Okajima, Ellsbury, Bucchholz, Ramirez , Delcarmen, Hermida, Bonser, Bard. Estimating this crew at about 15 mil leaves 15-25 mil for….
Free Agents to cover 3B, DH, Backup Catcher, Middle Infielder
Not much room for big signings at 3B, DH slots but Sox could get creative with bench slots (Wagner at Backup Catcher, etc.)
I'm Not Sure
I think Beltre should be back for 2011, which does eliminate the 3B dilemma, so all we would need out of that last 15-25 is DH, Catcher, and middle infielder. As for DH, I like Dunn and think we can get him for 8-12 mil, I also like the idea of Wagner as a backup. Unsure about the infield position, I think that depends on Iglesias’ development. Good long-term set up, but it all hinges on what happens this season.
How do you figure Beltre will be back?
Either he does well enough to garner a big contract (which we likely won’t be willing to match Boras on), or he sucks it up and takes the option, which might put him below “starter” quality.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
i think its extremly unlikely Beltre is less than a 2 WAR player
it would take a major injury and if that happens im perfectly fine with giving him another shot for 5M
by German Red Sox Fan on Jan 12, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
I certainly agree it's extremely unlikely.
Which is why I can almost guarantee you he hits free agency looking for a Boras-size contract.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
absolutly agree
he is seeking 4y 12M somewhere around that
by German Red Sox Fan on Jan 12, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
I was hoping
That Beltre will be good, and the team will have success, and he’ll take the player option. If he goes in between the window you provided and likes Boston, then why not stay? Somewhat wishful thinking, but there’s a chance.
That's completely unrealistic.
Beltre signed the deal he did for a reason.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
He gives up tens of millions of dollars because he “likes Boston”? I love Boston and it took a lot less than that for me to leave.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
He won't take a $5 million player option
no way, no how. It would be an insulting amount of money for him to take considering the level he plays at. Never mind the fact that he’s a Boras client. There’s a very vague chance that if he gets to 640 PAs, he would take the $10 million option, but chances are both that he won’t get to 640 PAs and that he wouldn’t take it. It’s not out of question if he performs well this year that he re-signs with the Sox- as frankly the 2011 FA class isn’t really looking any stronger at 3rd than the 2010 one is, but that will be more money on a different deal.
Beltre
Well there is the rub….if Beltre is back he likely had a poor year in 2010 and would come back at 5 mil so you’d have to take 4 mil (minus his buyout) out of the 15-25 mil. If he has a good year and resigns with the Sox he would probably cost about 10 mil and you’d be looking at 5-15 mil for the remaining slots.
That's estimating us at 150-160 million, right?
But the Sox have shown a willingness to hit $170 million this year.
If Lars could just position himself to be ready come 2011, that’d be a big bump. Solve our DH problems in a hurry.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't expect the Sox to spend $170 million every year.
$150-$160 million seems more of a realistic target.
I dunno.
It’s possible this is a 2007-like bump.
But at the same time, it’s possible the ownership realizes they need to spend more to compete with a Yankees team that’s buying up entire FA classes.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
But where's the revenue coming from?
This requires an additional $30-$40MM per year of revenue to sustain. Has there been a matching increase in ticket prices or other deals to make up for it?
It better be for sustained growth
If this is a one-off, it’s not so critical, but I’d like to know how you have a sustained increase in costs without finding a way to increase payroll to match.
B/c profit far outpaced payroll to begin with
Baseball as an industry has at least doubled its profits since the last time the Sox really increased payroll.
Their payroll was a round 140 before because that’s where the luxury tax used to be.
Their payroll was around 120
140 was the one-off year. If our one-off year has an increase of 30 million above the 20 million that was the bump before, then I don’t see any reason our basic payroll can’t also increase.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, you're basically right
# 2009: $121,745,999
# 2008: $133,390,035
# 2007: $143,026,214
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/boston-red-sox.html
isnt there a $5 increase atleast on average on the sox tickets this year?
thats around 15M for a whole season right there
by German Red Sox Fan on Jan 12, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
No. Maximum increase is $5
Half the ballpark is only going up $2, and the Green Monster and Boxes are going up $5. The rest of the park is frozen. So that’s maybe $3-$4 million.
But that's this year.
They’ve been kicked up a few times in the last 5 years.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
GRSF was asking about this year.
Ticket prices have gone up, but other sources of revenue (from NESN, marketing deals, etc.) have probably gone down because of the economy.
The payroll has gone down each of the last two years, so this huge salary bump looks like it’s going to be along the same lines as what happened in 2007: a spike, followed by a decline.
Here is the other issue
The Yankees greatly improved over the last 15 months, spending almost 500 million on free agents.
In terms of marginal dollars, it makes plenty of sense for us to increase our payroll in order to increase our chances of making the playoffs – and consequently cashing in on playoff revenue.
They also wanted to spend a ton last offseason on Teixeira but couldnt land their man. The offseason before that was a particularly poor one for free agents and they might not have seen anyone worth spending money on.
But isn't Teixeira's money effectively gone already?
I thought the Lester, Pedroia, and Youkilis deals more or less mopped up most of the piles of cash that would have gone to Mrs. Leigh.
So this new spending is on top of that, instead of it.
And besides, I’m not arguing that they won’t increase payroll—just that I don’t think they’re planning to sit at $170MM every year.
I think the Lester, Pedroia, and Youk deals were in the plans anyway
no way they would have let those guys go just because they signed Teixeira.
But you’re right, the overall payroll will go up, but it’s going to drop for a while after this- remember part of the reason for the “bridge year(s)” is to get people on short contracts so that we can bring up our young guys and keep payroll lower.
Yup
You cant actually think those three extensions were tied to Teixeira… how would that make sense?
Eh. It was the "narrative" painted by the media last year.
Wrong as it may have been.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
I think of cash flow rather literally as a flow
I’m an engineer—so work with me here.
You have flow X in. You can divert some part of that flow Y down pipe A, or down pipe network B. If you want to send Y down both pipes A and B, well, you can’t. You’d need a greater flow (Y + Z) for that.
So what I meant was that the Teixeira dollars ended up being diverted to pay for Lester, Youk, and Pedroia. The additional money that freed up will probably go to these “reclamation project” contracts Theo’s been using the last few years to round out the team.
So your theory is there was only enough flow X to pay for Teixeira
AND if they signed him they would have let Lester, Youk and Pedroia all play out there arb years and possibly walk as free agents…?
All three guys signed at a substantial discount. There is always money in the budget for that…
Just for the record
The Sox have added about 2,000 new seats since their last bump in payroll around 2004. Many of them being artificially expensive “pavillion”, “deck” and, of course, Green Monster seating.
The average ticket price has also increased average ticket prices quite a bit since ’04.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Why is that?
I would imagine 170 is around our budget going forward.
If not, why all the concern about the luxury tax this year?
170M payroll for the CBT
thats somewhere around a 150M payroll how its calculated here
by German Red Sox Fan on Jan 12, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
The luxury tax was played up a lot because ownership set it as a general goal.
With $171 million towards the CBT, though, the Sox weren’t really looking to make an easy Hermida-sized move and get under it, though, so I’m not sure the CBT itself as a big deal.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
We can find a DH
-I doubt seriously they spend money on it, and I could even see Ortiz back at ~5M or something like that.
-Okajima is under team control, not a real free agent. He wont be that expensive.
-Also, you’re stating actual obligations, not luxury tax numbers. Dice K is 8 something that way IIRC.
-If we sign VMart to an extension he is probably the catcher in 2011. If not, he’s the DH. You have us re-signing him with holes at both.
Your example seems to illustrate we do in fact have plenty of room. 15-25 to get a 3B and a couple bench spots is easy to do.
Actually
I didn’t explicitly say it but I had Victor pegged at C, but Varitek will be gone and the team would need a backup catcher (this is where a Wagner would fit in nicely)
I don’t have Okajima as a FA but as an Arbitration player (I bunched those together) Okajima in arbistration would likely draw 2 -3 million.
True on the luxury tax, I was going for actual payroll
Was not trying to argue one way or the other in terms of wiggle room….just seemed a bit tight at the end to get 2 starting players and fill numerous bench slots.
He says we have a hole at backup catcher.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
Adam Dunn
I want Dunn as DH in 2011. If he has another good season in 2010, he should get a raise from the 2 year, $20 mill. deal he had to take from the Nationals last year, but not a bank-breaker to say the least.
Adam Dunn doesn't want to DH
And, I can’t see the Sox signing a player to an expensive (i.e $10+ million) contract who can only DH. Ortiz was a special hitter when the Sox signed him. If the Sox don’t re-sign Papi for less money after next year, I think they’ll look for felixibility by rotating players in and out of the DH spot.
One more thing about Dunn. He has “old man skills” and is likely to age rapidly.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
He may not want to DH, but he probably should
And he may age rapidly, but I’d be comfortable with a 2-3 year deal for him.
Although I do agree with the money aspect of it. A DH who suddenly can’t hit that well (like Papi last year) and is making $12MM is a hefty load of dead money.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 13, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't give him more than 1-year
And, I’d rather see the Sox sign someone who could use a glove occasionally. It gives the team more options.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
yes this
I don’t much care for Dunn. I’d much rather have a good hitter who can do some fielding in case of injury, or even a rotation in the DH spot to keep players fresh.
I'd love Dunn.
That bat is a ridiculous bat for what it should cost if nobody is willing to let him field (and nobody should). Unfortunately, there are still guys like Omar Minaya running teams, so we’ll see.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
Sure, but.........
the Sox must work in the world of what is possible, i.e. what players are available. We all want versitile, young all-around players, but does that sound like a typcical DH? Most players don’t WANT to DH, but money talks and I’m sure Dunn could be convinced. I believe he is an underrated hitter. He hits for power, good OBP/OPS and does not strike out much. Yes, his fielding looks poor, but I’ll worry about that as much as I worry about Papi’s fielding.
I am working in the realm of the possible
I’m saying I would rather have a player who can’t hit quite as well as Dunn and can field a position or two. Gives us more roster flexibility and gives us more freedom to rotate position players to DH when they need a break.
I'm not sure I would call Dunn an "underrated hitter"...
People know he is a good hitter, that is the only reason he is getting paid to begin with. He also strikes out a fair amount…177Ks last year…166 the year before so you are wrong in that regard.
Big commitment
Hmmm, Mauer would probably run 20 mil + probably look for a nice long term deal and there is a question about how long he’ll catch. Basically that’s like Victor Martinez + another very good starter at another position. Not saying I’d be against it, just would limit FA flexibility. I think in order for that to happen Beckett or Papelbon would have to go
A Mauer contract scares me too.
Honestly, Martinez has similar issues, though.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
I want Mauer, too.
I’d also like Pujols at first, Jason Bay at DH, and a rotation of Lester, Lee, and Felix Hernandez, plus vintage Pedro and vintage Wakefield.
But I’m not holding my breath for either of those.
I agree but I’m afraid that it’s gonna another loss in the bidding war against the Yanks. The Yanks will have Posada coming off the books and I’m sure they won’t mind paying 25 mil a year for this guy.
Posada is still on the books for 13 million in 2011.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
Mauer is an absolutely ridiculously great player
but Minnesota will do almost everything to resign him- especially with a new park opening up, because they need to try to do everything to keep selling tickets and getting rid of their hometown hero is going to cost them a lot. Apart from that, Mauer will probably get a deal for a lot of money for much too long. I’d love to have him in Boston, but not only do I think it’s unlikely, I think it’s even unlikelier that he’ll sign a contract that makes sense for the Sox.
Although you'll have to think that a ballpark that doesn't have garbage bags on the OF walls...
…will be a draw for Minnesotans in and of itself. They’ll feel like the walked into the Garden of Eden or something by comparison.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
...until that first rain delay
When fans from Fargo and Sioux Falls and Duluth drive 5 hours into the city only to sit for 3 hours in 32º weather only to have the game canceled.
I was at the rain-fest on May 20th that was eventually canceled against the Twins, and I couldn’t help but think whether the MN fans in attendance were slightly second-thinking their new taxpayer funded plaything.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Oh, agreed.
From what I’ve gathered, Minnesota’s climate is much like Ontario’s. They really should have gone with a retractable roof.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
haha this is true
that park was TERRIBLE. However, I don’t know what they were thinking building an outdoor park in Minnesota. I can’t imagine an attendence of more than say 2000 for any games that aren’t in the summer.
Taxpayers balked
at throwing another $100m into the park for a roof.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Love that you threw in Wake in that rotation.
Tim Love
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
Room?
Are we back to the hard cap again? The Red Sox are already over the tax threshold, I believe, and they will go over agan for the right players. Sure, the Sox are not going out and signing every big free agent but they will not hesitate to extend into tax territory if they need to. I realize it makes the analysis and discussion more interesting to use a “cap”, but this is not fantasy baseball.
We arent over
We took great pains to stay away from it – which, to me, indicates a willingness/acceptance that they might have to go over in 2011.
we're probably over
once arbitration numbers are in, and especially once you count in any bonuses over the course of the year
Until Lowell is traded (and even afterwards most likely), we're over
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 13, 2010 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
No we're not
Lowell being traded would have net zero effect on the CBT anyway. Money you send to teams to pay for guys = money that counts against the tax. For instance, Lugo counts as 9M against our CBT calculation in 2010.
At the point of the above article we were at roughly 168. Since then the whole series of Beltre-Kotchman-Hall signings and deals actually SAVED us a little over 2 mill against the cap (thanks to SEA sending us money with Hall and all the money MIL sent them originally. So signing Beltre and trading Kotchman for Hall and cash we lowered our CBT assessment.
So, assuming the arb assessments in the article are roughly correct (and they look right to me), we should be around 166 right now.
Beltre is at an average of 7 million
The Kotchman-Hall trade could not possibly have saved us more money then Beltre cost us unless they’re paying well over Hall’s salary.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
They are
* Payments from other clubs for 2010:
o $7,1500,000 (Bill Hall)
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/boston-red-sox.html
AND we deduct Kotchman’s ~3.X that he would have gotten in arb.
So, maybe right at the cap, but I would guess a little under after arb awards
If we can move Lowell and get another team to pay even a couple million we should have absolutely no problems getting under…
that's good to see
and makes me definitely actually like the trade. I haven’t seen any confirmation of that anywhere though- I know that is what the Brewers were paying but haven’t seen anyone saying the Mariners are giving all of that to the Sox. Very reassuring. I think for Kotchman+$1.25 mill, Hall+a minor league PTBNL is a great deal
Hall is due $8.4M, the last of a four-year, $24M deal. Were the Mariners to pick up most of his salary — something they could do with the $7-8M received from the Brewers when they dealt for Hall last summer — Hall could help the Sox’ luxury tax numbers quite a bit. He would represent a savings of about $1.5 for the purposes of luxury tax calculations. That, along with the roughly $3.5M saved by dealing Casey Kotchman, is what allowed the Sox to sign Adrian Beltre with a minimal luxury tax hit.
http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2010/01/05/bill-hall-to-red-sox/
Should still make Beltre about a $2 million hit.
And we were already over by 1.5 million or so, since the WEEI article was counting Lowell at 9 million.
We can get under, but we’d need to make some moves.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 14, 2010 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
We dealt Kotchman for Hall, so how can the Hall acquisition save us a different amount than the Kotchman dealing?
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
Two more issues
1) We’re actually only paying something in the 140’s in salary. The AAVs come to ~170
2) Oh yeah! The luxury tax cap goes up to $178mm next year!
I linked Cot's and another article that shows that in fact, they did.
Google it. It already happened. The amount is uncertain still (somewhere between 7.15 – 7.5)
When we look back at Beckett health history in Boston, we can speculate that the Red Sox FO won’t resign him because they think of him as an injury risk:
I Remember 2008 when Beckett reported to have felt “numbness in his elbow” and there was a risk of an UCL injury
Josh Beckett is apparently frustrated with his injury woes and is going to visit with Dr. James Andrews. Andrews, who is known as the Grim Reaper among baseball fans, will take a look at why Beckett has lingering elbow pain.
He also missed the beginning of the 2008 season due to back spasm.
On the 17th of May 2007, he went on the 15 days DL.
This year too he missed 2 games in the end of the season due to elbow problems.
Some experts in pitching mechanics like Corey Dawkins think that he’s more of an injury risk than Lackey:
Lackey’s injury history don’t suggest a major injury is looming in my eyes at all. Lackey had had problems with his triceps where it attaches to the bone in the back of the elbow which at worst, suggests he may have bone spurs but that is a relatively quick and easy fix with no long term problems. He has not had problems in the inside part of his elbow near where the Tommy John Ligament is nor has he had any injuries to his biceps. He has suffered from a two bouts of shoulder stiffness that I’ve seen referenced to in the past but the last one was in 2007 in which he didn’t miss a start. Command is generally the first thing to go with elbow injuries and velocity is the first the usually go with shoulder injuries. Neither of the things occurred with lackey over the last couple of years where his command and his velocity have actually been improving over the last 3 years. So nothing I see in this profile makes me worried about a Tommy John or Labrum surgery candidate.
Beckett on the other hand does have issues which I worry about. He’s mainly got over his blister issues from before but now other things pop up. Last year he suffered from back spasms, neck spasms, general groin soreness and of course the neuritis while this year he stayed relatively healthy in terms of not missing time. The back spasms and neck spasms could be a protective mechanism from a herniated or bulging disc or at the very least the spasms could be the result of a severe muscular imbalance. The muscles of the core work to maintain stability at all costs and when they can’t they strain or go into spasms.
The ulnar neuritis though is what really worries me. Ulnar Neuritis is a relatively benign issue in isolation but combined with other factors I’m beginning to worry. From my experience, Ulnar neuritis in throwers is from instability of the elbow leading to a compressive force on the nerve while it’s being stretched. As I said, instability in the elbow usually leads to a loss of command which he exhibited over the end of last year and the beginning of this year. He had a stretch of about 6-7 starts where his command improved but then his command started to suffer again. His velocity decreased over the time of the year which is another concern.
So from where I stand Lackey is a much much safer bet to stay healthy than Beckett is and I don’t see anything that could cause Lackey to miss entire years in his injury profile
When the Sox presented Lackey in the press conference, Theo said that they think that Lackey shoulder problems are fixable and they have no worries about it although they made him sign a front loaded contract with a 2015 club option at Major League minimum salary if he misses significant time with surgery for pre-existing elbow injury in 2010-14.
I think that they have faith in the fact that their shoulder program could improve Lackey’s velocity an allow him to perform at a high level at least in the beginning of the contract an put 2 or 3 seasons of 5 WAR performance.
"That was a lot of fun… You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." Jeff Francoeur
Beckett and self doubt due to injury potential
I also believe Beckett is showing self doubt and is possibly holding back due to this fear of injury for whatever reason. He may be a bit of a hypochondriac or he may sense that he is actually breaking down, but either way, ever since this elbow thingy, he does not seem the same pitcher. I think it is very important for management to figure out exactly what is going on physically versus what is just in Beckett’s head!
Scenario:
The Time: December 2010
The Place: A dimly-lit bunker deep beneath Fenway Park.
You are Theo Epstein, general manager of the Boston Red Sox. John Henry has given you a blank contract worth 18 million dollars a year for five years. There are three pitchers in front of you willing to sign that contract: Josh Beckett, Brandon Webb, and Cliff Lee. You can only choose one of them. Who do you choose?
Lee
And then he spends the next 6 years wondering why on earth he didn’t demand $5 million more.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
So the consensus is Lee
I wonder what he’ll be looking at for a contract. If he pitches the way he did with Philly (especially if the Mariners get into the postseason and he repeats his performance) do you think he could be looking at CC money?
Absolutely.
Shorter years, but CC is the easy comparison. Top-of-the-line lefty.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 12, 2010 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
somewhat OT:
when u have 2 great young pitchers who are basically the same in tearms of perfomance, ceiling, age etc you get the point. The only difference is one is a lefty and the other is a righty. Who would you rather have and why?
by German Red Sox Fan on Jan 13, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Most teams would hang onto the lefty
Good lefty starters are harder to find.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 13, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty much this.
Though it’s much easier to find a guy who can hit a lefty, lefties definitely have their place in any rotation, so you go with scarcity first.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
I would say right around there, maybe even a little more.
Dont forget, the Phils moved him and traded for Halladay supposedly b/c they were very unhappy with the parameters discussed for a Lee extension and didnt think they could keep him.
That story is kind of confusing
because apparently what happened was they gave him an offer, he came back with a counteroffer (which is a pretty typical negotiating move, the team gives a number lower than their maximum and the player comes back with a number higher than he expects, then they work out something between) and then got traded the next day or two with no more discussion. I would guess for the Phillies it was more of a years thing than a salary/year thing- since to everyone’s surprise, they got Halladay to sign a 3 year extension.
Well, the implications the press have been giving are that the counter offer was so absurd it scared the Phils into the move.
this is true
but just speculation. It could be the case, though from Lee’s comments I find it hard to believe.
yeah im sure
and he’s probably worth it as long as it’s something like a 4 year deal. But then they signed Halladay for $20 million, so i figure the years must have been the biggest sticking point.
Yeah, especially with the Yanks losing both Vazquez and Pettite after the year
I can see them making a run at Lee, Crawford and Mauer next year depending on how things go with contract extensions.
But yeah, Lee’s been the better bet over the past few years, even though he’s a year and a half older than Beckett, he shut down the Yanks in the WS and if he can pitch well again against AL teams this year he’s in line for big payday.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 13, 2010 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
Back to Beckett
The presence of Cliff Lee on the FA market improves the Sox positon with Beckett. How many teams will be offering $100 million contracts to pitchers next winter? Maybe the Yankees and maybe, maybe the Angels. The Yankees will likey target Lee, leaving Beckett with diminshed opportunities. That’s why the Sox should make a move for Beckett early.
Let them have Crawford
Most overrated player in recent memory, maybe.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Let Beckett Go
Lester/Lackey is solid 1/2. If Bucholz cont to improve & Dice K turns it around should have a #3/4. Use the money it would cost for Beckett and get Mauer. pick up a solid SP in the 3/4 mold
Mauer is staying in Minnesota
Even if he goes on the market, I’m not sure he’s a good long-term risk. He’s a tall catcher with some history of back problems. How long before he becomes a 1B/DH?
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 12, 2010 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
Who would you grab then?
Valu-Mart has the same problem, he should probably be a 1B/DH right now anyway.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 12, 2010 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
Mauer Young
If he’s moved to 1b/DH at the back end of the deal so what. He’s the Best Def C now and the best hitter.
Im not sure I agree
I would be delighted if Mayer would just re-sign with Minnesota now… yes, we couldnt get him, but at least he wouldnt be a Yankee that way.
And we wouldn't have to hear everyone screaming for Theo to go get him.
But still, who besides Mauer or Valu-Mart is there? Gerald Laird? AJ Pierzynski? I might have to stop watching Sox games if they sign him.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 13, 2010 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
VMart could just keep catching for awhile
He’s not bad at it. Not sure why people feel he can’t be a full time catcher. He’s our full time catcher this year (though Tek will face most of the LHPs).
I think I would be happy with running it back in 2011 with the VMart/Tek platoon. Nothing wrong with that at all. I actually expect a nice bounceback from Tek performance wise, as not playing every day should keep him much healthier and mostly facing LHPs will put him in a better position to succeed. He’s one of the best backup catchers in baseball, and his defense and leadership are really nice bonuses, especially helping VMart learn the staff.
If we werent happy with that I would expect us to pursue a Catcher through trade. BUT we’re getting well ahead of ourselves. Let’s see what we have this year and how happy we are with it. Things could look a lot different in a year. There could be injuries. Other catchers could emerge as good options (think Scutaro in ’09). We also have a number of interesting catcher prospects who could break out (Wagner/Dusty Brown/Exposito/Lavarnway/Fedorowicz). Its really not something we need to be worrying about yet. I do expect us to go VMart/Tek in 2011.
I think VMart is a perfectly fine option as a starting catcher in 2010 and 2011. We can resign him, let him catch in 2011 and maybe 2012 and then move him, or ease him off the position.
Max Ramirez is not much of a catcher
He’s not Jesus Montero bad, but he’s not a full time catcher for any team in the majors. He’s really a 1B/DH who can play a little bit of catcher… and for a 1B/DH he’s not much of a hitter. He’s a pretty mediocre prospect, but would have been an interesting part time fit for us.
I know you’re just joking b/c the trade got nixed, but I just want everyone to be aware Max Ramirez was never going to be our solution at Catcher…
Word is he was improving quite nicely, actually.
Not a good catcher, but starting to look like an ACTUAL catcher.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 3:30 AM EST up reply actions
This interests me.
I understand all the talk of guys like Ramirez and Montero and even Saltalamacchia shifting to first or DH after a few years, but where do you draw the line? It seems like a Mauer or McCann don’t come along very often, so at what point do you compromise. It seems as though we have a very good defensive catcher in Mark Wagner, but at the same time his bat will be nothing like a Montero or (if he’s fully recovered) Ramirez. With both Mauer and V-Mart possibly being out of their price range and also on their way to first base, who should the Sox be looking at in terms of trading for when it comes to catchers of the future?
Do you have a link for that?
Pretty sure that’s false. In fact, Peter Abraham said they planned to use him mostly as a 1B and bench bat IIRC.
Ramirez, 25, is not regarded as an particularly skilled defensive catcher, though he is prized for his bat. He could evolve into more of a designated hitter/first baseman than a catcher.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/12/report_lowell_t.html
Max spent the entire year hobbled by wrist injuries. He really didnt make any progress behind the plate in 09. He DH’d a ton. Where did he supposedly improve? Venezuela? The only people who thought he could really catch were overzealous Rangers fans. He’s never really projected as a full time catcher. His arm isnt great. His lateral movement and blocking stinks.
Most of the questions raised about Ramirez concern his defense. He’s slow behind the plate, has trouble blocking pitches, and his arm is below average.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8602
Its probably telling, too, that the Rangers – who are actually starved for Catching right now, would trade a “catcher” with such a good bat for Mike Lowell’s corpse. The Rangers have been trying to sign all sorts of mediocre Catchers, too. They dont view him as a full time Catcher, nor did the Sox. He’s already 25 years old, too, and to expect him to improve much is just wishful thinking. What holds him back are physical issues, not skill issues.
I'm not sure about the link but I did hear about him improving
but yes, you’re right, he’s probably not a great full-time catcher. Could project however, as a great DH/backup catcher. That’s a combo I’d like to see.
But doesn’t solve the full-time catcher situation if Martinez is unable to do it (which I’ve seen no evidence of)
I think he was a near ideal fit as a backup C/DH/1B platoon with Kotchman.
If the deal went through Im not certain Beltre lands here, to tell you the truth.
Theyve made it clear Martinez is the full time catcher, for good or bad. Im pretty optimistic with him. His throwing arm is an issue, but we’ve been used to that for the last 15 years. His skills as a receiver are kind of underrated. He even caught Wake pretty well.
He also caught CC and Lee
during their Cy Young years.
He can’t have been terrible behind the plate.
The Red Sox pitching philosophy is to practically ignore base runners in favor of focusing on getting the batter out. So they get fantastic jumps. Its almost criminal to expect our catchers to be able to stop base-stealers. At any rate, its clearly not important to the Red Sox so I have a hard time giving it much weight either. As long as VMart can hit, I want him catching.
V-Mart
Was watching a MLB special where they were comparing the NY/Bos pitching staffs and defense and they gave the Catcher defensive nod to Martinez and Boston….
And I also have to once again chime in with "based on what?"
whenever we talk about catcher defense.
I’m okay if we point out specific weaknesses – Catcher A doesn’t block the plate well. Catcher B has a lousy arm and doesn’t throw out runners.
But in general, “Catcher defense” isn’t really about doing those things very often. I don’t know of any real good single metric to cover catcher defense.
Most of catcher defense is sorta boring – call the game (if the Manager/pitching coach aren’t doing so). Frame pitches. Stop wild pitches from going to the back stop. Field pop-ups. Field bunts. Oh yeah – and probably the most important task: Scout hitters.
Those are probably 95% of the actual important things a catcher needs to do on defense. Yet everybody SEES the bad throw to second and thinks that means a catcher is ‘bad defensively’.
Bah.
not talking about throws, not even saying he's a bad defensive catcher
because I don’t know. Based on pitchers not liking having him as a catcher.
But yes, catcher defense is nearly impossible to quantify.
because I forgot to mention the clarification
I was saying he’s not “known” as a good defensive catcher
yeah - i'm not really picking on you, Wolf
Its just one of my pet soap-boxes.
heh yeah i figured, I wasn't taking it personally
just wanted to justify what I was saying because it IS a very valid point, there’s no real great way to measure a catcher’s effect on the game.
except his bat.
Which is why i HATE talk of putting VMart at 1B (instead of C) any more than minimally necessary.
If we CAN shoehorn in VMart as a 120+ game catcher
Then by all means, let’s shoehorn him in there. I’m just not sure he can take it.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
My problem with V-Mart is how little time he spends at catcher.
There’s a lot of talk about him not being able to stick there, and the Indians were slotting Shoppach in there every other day for a reason.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2010 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure I see where the concern is from
He’s caught 120+ every year from 2004-2007 until injured in 2008. In 2008 his ratio of Catcher/1B games was 55/10 → maps to catching 137 games if he had played all 162. So they weren’t phasing him out through 2008.
In 2009, CLE already had moved on, were tearing down the team to start over and wanted to trade him – thus of course they had to get Shoppach time at C. Then he comes to BOS where he has to push Tek out of the way. Even with those two factors in play, he still managed to catch 85 games.
I have no doubt that if he was not moved between teams this year he would have easily caught 120+.
VMart is also historically not prone to fades in the second half. Indeed, his second-half splits are noticeably stronger than his first half. That suggests that he’s basically pretty durable.
They were doing that b/c Shoppach was hitting really well
While Garko and Hafner were hitting terrible.
I'd just like to take a minute here to point out how goofy Beckett looks in that picture
that’s all.
well
Papelbon can’t always be the goofy looking one…
by Logan Lietz on Jan 14, 2010 12:58 AM EST up reply actions
The other thing to consider: If Beckett has a 2007ish year this coming season, it might take $100M to keep him.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
Well if that were the case...
I’d happily send him off with his new ring.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 14, 2010 4:51 AM EST up reply actions
+2
Defense being great right now, pick up a GB pitcher next year. Brandon Webb reclamation project?
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 14, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions

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