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Mark McGwire Admits Steroid Use

Mark McGwire admitted Monday to using steroids during his professional baseball career. AP:

McGwire said in a statement sent to The Associated Press on Monday that he used steroids on and off for nearly a decade.

"I wish I had never touched steroids," McGwire said in a statement. "It was foolish and it was a mistake. I truly apologize. Looking back, I wish I had never played during the steroid era."

McGwire also used human growth hormone, a person close to McGwire said, speaking on condition of anonymity because McGwire didn't include that detail in his statement.

McGwire's decision to admit using steroids was prompted by his decision to become hitting coach of the St. Louis Cardinals, his final big league team. Tony La Russa, McGwire's manager in Oakland and St. Louis, has been among McGwire's biggest supporters and thinks returning to the field can restore the former slugger's reputation.

"I never knew when, but I always knew this day would come," McGwire said. "It's time for me to talk about the past and to confirm what people have suspected."

Finally. At least McGwire admits to it now. Yes, he should have admitted to it years ago, but he has come clean and hopefully it's the full truth. He's got nothing to lose by saying this now. My respect level has gone up for McGwire now that he has just admitted the truth.

Now should he make the Hall of Fame? In my opinion, no. But at least his conscious is clean now. I'm sure that takes a load off his shoulders.

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about time

but about the hof…i dont think he should be in, but aroid will for sure be in, how is it fair that mcgwire isnt. yes arod is a better player, but to say mcgwire didnt affect baseball as much for the time period is stupid. If it was my way no one would be who took roids, but who know there could be plenty of guys who took that already are in

by beantownbeamer34 on Jan 11, 2010 3:30 PM EST reply actions  

No easy answer.

I think at a minimum that folks should make them (McGwire and other known/suspected PED users) wait a few ballots. Collectively the voters need time to digest what it all means.

A big question it raises for me is – if we let known PED users in (on the grounds that we can’t know exactly whom among others were/were not using) then how do we keep Pete Rose out? I don’t believe for a second that Rose is the only guy to ever gamble.

For that matter, how can we keep Pete Rose out when Ty Cobb (who was a bastard in many ways by all accounts and is strongly suspected of having bet on games) is in?

by mmmmm on Jan 11, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

every clubhouse since 1921

has had “you cannot gamble on baseball” signs. None had “you cannot inject primoboline into your ass” signs.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

There are four additional factors to consider as well

1) Guys who used steroids were breaking the rules in an attempt to win, no question about it. Guys who gambled on baseball may very well have been trying to lose at times, which is a much bigger threat to the integrity of the game.

2) If you want to keep out all steroids users, you should also keep out all the guys who used amphetamines. Bar anyone who used greenies and you’d have virtually no one eligible for the Hall of Fame from the past 30 years, maybe longer.

3) If you want to keep out all PED users, what about all the guys who used non-PED illegal drugs? Paul Molitor, for instance, was a huge coke fiend. Why should he be allowed in when all the steroids users are kept out?

4) If you want to keep out all the guys who broke the rules with drugs, you ought to keep out all the guys who broke the rules in other ways. No spitballers, no scuffballers, no one who ever corked a bat, etc., etc., etc.

Pretty soon we’re going to end up with no one eligible to be a member of the Hall. I’d stick with anyone who isn’t banned from the game to be eligible, which leaves Rose out (which I’m ok with because I’m just about certain he bet on games over which he had influence) but lets guys like McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, and Bonds stay eligible.

by RSNexile on Jan 11, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

"because I’m just about certain"

the problem with that statement is I’m also “just about certain” that Rose is not the only one – and that the HoF already includes guys who did (bet on games over which they had influence).

Unless you have evidence that he bet on games to lose, there isn’t any indication that he was any more of a threat to the ‘integrity of the game’. ‘Not saying he didn’t. ’Just not seeing any evidence to that effect.

By definition, anyone playing professional sports has money riding on the outcome of a game over which they have influence.

Ultimately, I don’t have a huge moral issue over PED usage other than the fact that despite our cynicism, the one blind sample test seemed to indicate that while a large enough fraction of ballplayers were using it to warrant the institution of testing (they passed the 5% threshold easily) it still was almost certain that the fraction was well under 20% – perhaps under 15%. That means that that fraction who were using, as large as it was, had a huge unfair advantage over players who were not using because, very simply most players were probably NOT using.

Thus you have to take their accomplishments with a huge grain of salt. A PED enhanced fireballer got to face batters who over 80% of the time were NOT PED- enhanced. A PED-enhanced hitter got to tee off on pitchers who 80% of the time were NOT PED-enhanced.

Moral issues aside, you just have to look at what they actually were able to do and wonder if it was really all that impressive.

by mmmmm on Jan 11, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

He bet on MLB games -- that's enough to warrant the ban

And the argument that anyone playing professional sports has money riding on the outcome of a game over which they have influence as a counter to the problem of gambling on games is extremely disingenuous. An athlete competing professionally is presumed to be trying to win the game. Someone betting on the game does not deserve any such presumption, and especially not if he spent years lying about whether he bet on the game in the first place.

by RSNexile on Jan 11, 2010 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Seriously.

Pete Rose made his own bed. There’s no sympathy warranted for Pete Rose.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

by Bloggy on Jan 11, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, i hate to get caught showing any sympathy for Rose

cuz I don’t really have any. As Bloggy says – he made his own bed.

But I also know that Cobb was just as bad if not worse of a character. It hard to rationalize ‘moral’ standards that let him stay in while keeping Rose out.

In the end, its the Hall of Fame – voters will put in whomever they feel is ‘famous’ enough.

by mmmmm on Jan 12, 2010 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Pete Rose should be in.

No question about it. He is one of the all time greats. Should he be allowed to manage again? No. In my mind, the HoF is not a place only for those with integrity. It is a place for the best baseball players ever. And Pete Rose is certainly one of them.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jan 12, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Not while he lives

I’m ok with inducting him after he’s dead. But there are plenty of very good reasons to maintain lifetime bans for guys who bet on the game — including that they all know that’s the rule even before they get caught. Once his lifetime is over, the ban can be too.

by RSNexile on Jan 12, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

I’d been down with that, too.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

by Bloggy on Jan 13, 2010 8:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Oooh - I like that idea.

That might be the way to handle steroid users as well.

‘Keeps them from realizing yet one more ’benefit’ from their PED use while alive, while eventually acknowledging their ‘famous’ contributions (positive or negative) to the sport.

by mmmmm on Jan 13, 2010 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

This seems to take something away from the HoF.

All of a sudden we’ve decided to withhold mempership into the Hall for punishment? I think that takes away from the integrity of the place. It ought to be a place to recognize baseball greatness. If you think Bonds or Clemens was only great because of PED use, I understand that as an argument to keep them out. But to keep them out because they have broken the rules and need to be spanked cheapens the entire process.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jan 13, 2010 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

It's not FOR punishment

It’s AS punishment. There’s a difference, and most people miss it, but it’s important.

Look, people who study punishment (and I’m one of them, though I generally work in the context of either child development and socialization or the criminal justice system) will tell you there are only four legitimate reasons to punish someone — incapacitation, retribution, rehabilitation, and deterrence. Incapacitation is mostly irrelevant in a case like this, though keeping Rose away from the game makes it all but impossible for him to do further damage to the game. Retribution has its limits, but if the punishment doesn’t impose a painful cost on the person who broke the rules (and especially if he’s pathological, as Rose is), there’s little motivation to rehabilitate and little deterrent power. Rehabilitation is probably irrelevant in Rose’s case because he lied about everything for so long and only came clean because it was self-serving to do so; he remains essentially unrepentant. As for deterrence, any deterrent power of punishing Rose disappears if he is reinstated. He is not specifically deterred from repeating his violations because he’s pathological, and there is no general deterrence because all anyone would see is that if they just continue to lie about cheating, gambling, or other severe violations of the rules, they’ll eventually get away with it and be able to enjoy the rewards of their crimes. But if you wait until he’s dead to reinstate him, he doesn’t get to enjoy any of the rewards.

And since the rules say you get a lifetime ban for gambling, the ban ought to end when you die. Which, appropriately, would also open the door for guys like Shoeless Joe Jackson, who by most accounts at least attempted to get out from under the influence of gamblers. Frankly, if Rose can get in and Shoeless Joe can’t, that would cheapen the entire process.

by RSNexile on Jan 13, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

is that what the rules say?

I’m pretty sure they don’t. The commisioner is given the power to do basically whatever he wants, almost unilaterally. My understanding of the Rose case was that he agreed to not fight the ban (through the union) because he did not want a full investigation into his finances(knowing that would lead to the discovery of tax evasion). The understanding, however, was that the commisioner would lift the ban in a few years. However, the commisioner (Giamatti?) died a few months later and Selig has never really considered lifting the ban himself.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jan 14, 2010 3:27 AM EST up reply actions  

You know, you're right

Here’s the rule:

(d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or
employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in
connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared
ineligible for one year.

   Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall
bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which
the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

It doesn’t say “lifetime ban.” It says “permanently ineligible.” That would mean the ban should survive beyond death.

by RSNexile on Jan 14, 2010 7:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Also,

The Shoeless Joe case is very, very different from the Rose case. Joe Jackson intentionally lost a WS in order to make money. There is no evidense (or accusations) that Pete Rose ever did this or even bet against his own team. If you don’t see the difference here, I don’t know what to tell you.

Also, I think the “deterrent” role has already been as effective as it will be. As it stands the punishment against Rose is only currently deterring players who have a chance at the HoF, which is not very many. If players do not already know not to gamble on baseball, another few years of Pete Rose out of the HoF most likely will not convince them.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jan 14, 2010 3:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Wrong

Why don’t you look up how Shoeless Joe did in the 1919 World Series and come back if you really think he was trying to lose.

by RSNexile on Jan 14, 2010 7:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, if Shoeless Joe was dogging it

I’d love to see what he could do when actually trying!

by mmmmm on Jan 14, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Put him in the hall

stop with the steroid moralizing.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2010 3:34 PM EST reply actions  

+1

It just goes down as the steroid era. No one has any way of telling who really took them or not, so if their numbers are good enough they should be in

by cnubsbl16 on Jan 11, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

No way! What gave it away, his gigantic Popeye arms?

So, Jose Canseco has been right all along… hmmmmm.

"Is everyone in my life freakin' bananas?" - Tony Soprano

by OH-FOUR on Jan 11, 2010 3:59 PM EST reply actions  

Yup.

Canseco seems to be the only one in this whole saga who has been telling the truth from the the start.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jan 12, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

The truth shall set you free.....

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

by Bloggy on Jan 11, 2010 4:05 PM EST reply actions  

No hall for cheaters

as long as using roid’s is considered cheating, the known cheaters should be suspended and any of their accomplishments, steroid related, should be thrown out and not considered for hof voting purposes.

therefore mac doesn’t get my vote.

i like mcgwire but breaking the rules led him to a career that would send a non-cheater to the hall. we will never know for sure who the all-time homer in a season guy is.

those that played by the rules are punished in a lot of ways.

big mac got the money for being a smash brother and he doesn’t have a life time ban. let that be enough.

roids – personally, i think they should be permitted (legalized, unbanned, whatever). i like the homers and the career longevity.

under a doctors care, they will not likely cause physical harm or damage – if taken as prescribed.

by the way, roids are a schedule 3 drug; heroin, crack and MARIJUANA are schedule 1 (1 is much more severe). (this may be better suited for the NORML blogs).

Also, anabolic roids have been around since the 1930’s. east germany used them excessively on guinea pig women olympic athletes in 1968, physically altering some of them for the worst and ruining many of their lives.

mickey mantle has been rumored to have used roids in the early 60’s.

some nobody pitcher admitted to being the earliest mlb player to use them, i think in 1976. he played for the sox for about 50 games. the roids didn’t help him – he sucked.

roid use and the hall of fame will need to be addressed as the steroid era folks become eligible. i would hate to see the litigation folks resolve it.

by Mick Lowe on Jan 11, 2010 6:19 PM EST reply actions  

PPOR

“i like mcgwire but breaking the rules led him to a career that would send a non-cheater to the hall.”

You’re so certain, so prove it.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

shouldn't we remove the known cheaters who have already been elected?

yes – if, on the balance of probabilities, it can be shown that a person would not have gotten into the hof without having cheated, then he should be removed. it’s not a place for cheaters – cheaters who only got there by cheating, like mcgwire.

by Mick Lowe on Jan 12, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

The HoF is a place of cheaters, liars,

racists, criminals, alcoholics, misogynists and gamblers. It is not some morally pure organization.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Jan 12, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jan 13, 2010 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Man

The tough go is when Clemens and Bonds are up for the vote…..two guys who would be certain first ballot guys??? Whaddaya do?

by BobZupcic on Jan 11, 2010 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Vote for them

because both were hall of famers before any supposed steroid use.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2010 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Disagree.

Bonds had only a few really great seasons under his belt before he probably started juicing, probably around age 27. He probably would have had more very good years – but there is no guarantee he would have. And the Ruth-like numbers he suddenly jumped to were clearly the result of chemistry – and I don’t mean the clubhouse kind.

But if you stopped his career right then, it was not HoF caliber yet.

by mmmmm on Jan 12, 2010 12:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Do you have any evidence of this?

It’s pretty well documented that he started in 1999.

by bdunc8 on Jan 12, 2010 1:33 AM EST up reply actions  

documented by whom?

He hasn’t ‘admitted’ anything and hasn’t been convicted (yet) so we only have suspicions (with varying evidentiary basis).

My suspicion is that he started using something earlier than 1999. His ratio of extra-base hits to hits dramatically changed at age 27 (1992) and stayed there and never went back down – and indeed stepped up again at age 1999. This is a number that is largely based on physical strength and shouldn’t jump so dramatically. The four years prior were all great, but not unusual, with values of 38.8%, 41.0%, 43.5%, 38.9%. All very good. A powerful hitter. But nothig spectacular. Suddenly, in 1992, he jumps to Babe Ruth like numbers: 51.0%, 48.6, … and NEVER GOES BACK DOWN!!!! Indeed then in 1999, his numbers go to absurd levels.

Players just don’t do that. Guys have peak years, but its never such a huge jump. If his age 27 season was something like 46% I might be less suspicious. But 51.0%??? And age and statistics usually brings them back down to their norms.

The more I look at his numbers, the more I am convinced he started juicing in 1992.

Barry Bonds
1986: 48.9% (first year in MLB)
1987: 47.2%
1988: 38.8%
1989: 41.0%
1990: 43.5% (His first MVP year, age 25)
1991: 38.9%
1992: 51.0% (Note the jump from this point on. Still in Pit, so not a park effect)
1993: 48.6% (first in SF)
1994: 47.5%
1995: 47.0%
1996: 45.3%
1997: 45.8%
1998: 52.4%
1999: 61.5% (injured part of this year – did he start to really juice up in order to heal?)
2000: 55.1%
2001: 68.6% !!!!!! (The year he hit 73, age 36. This is not human. It is kryptonian).
2002: 53.0%
2003: 51.1% (Initial MLB testing started in 2002 – don’t know if Bonds was tested though.)
2004: 55.6%
2005: 50.0% (only 52 PAs. Injured. Stronger MLB testing starts.)
2006: 49.5%
2007: 44.7%

by mmmmm on Jan 12, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

He admitted he unknowingly used steroids...

The book Game of Shadows goes into great detail about his story. You can buy it for a penny on Amazon.

You claim his years up until 1992 were “very good” but “nothing spectacular”. Then in 1992 he jumps to “Babe Ruth like numbers”. In 1990, he had 88 1B’s, 32 2B’s, 3 3B’s, and 33 HR’s. In 1992, he had 72 1B’s, 36 2B’s, 5 3B’s, and 34 HR’s. Is that really a significant jump? Did you consider that his numbers rose simply because he was in his prime? Give credit where credit is due.

If you are so convinced that a significant jump in XBH/H ratio means a player used steroids, then tell me about this player’s steroid history:

Age 21: 38.6%
Age 22: 37.0%
Age 23: 38.9%
Age 24: 34.7%
Age 25: 41.3%
Age 26: 41.3%
Age 27: 42.1%
Age 28: 41.4%
Age 29: 38.3%
Age 30: 29.9%
Age 31: 40.3%
Age 32: 40.5%
Age 33: 42.9%
Age 34: 37.9%
Age 35: 47.0%
Age 36: 42.2%
Age 37: 44.4%
Age 38: 37.0%
Age 39: 44.9%

by bdunc8 on Jan 12, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Not enough information for me to say much about your anonymous player. I’ve never claimed that XBH/H is everything one needed to know. It helps to know if the player has switched home parks, of course. Without knowing more, I’d say it doesn’t look like compelling evidence of PED use. That doesn’t mean your anonymous guy was clean – only that his graph doesn’t scream out any compelling signs. Most of his variations are short blips up or down – basically stochastic. But I’m sure you’ll share with us all.

Regarding the raw stats from Bond’s 1990 v 1992 years. You conveniently neglect to to mention the raw number of hits that produced those results (156 & 147). I.E. in 92 he produced the same results on significantly fewer contact swings. More importantly, he maintained that ratio from that point on at a level significantly over that of the prior 4 years.

The ratio is basically measuring the average power of the hits in each set. A smaller or larger set of hits will produce a smaller or larger set of raw HRs, 2Bs, etc., accordingly. So the raw results don’t tell us enough about how powerfully he was hitting the ball.

I’ve obviously not looked at every hitter in the history of MLB. But I have looked at graphs of this for quite a few star baseball sluggers with similarly long careers. Some I’ve looked at include Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Frank Robinson, etc. So far, nobody I’ve looked at from well before the steroid era has a curve that looks anything like Bond’s. All of those guys show fairly steady decline in power (other than occasional short peaks and dips) from their early 20s onward to the ends of their careers.

Looking at more modern hitters, Bonds, McGwire, Sosa & Giambi follow a common pattern – all those guys start at ‘normal’ numbers (around 40%) in their early years and then leap upward and either stay up or keep climbing.

It is certainly possible that other PED users could end up with different profiles, depending on the exact pattern of there use.

Alex Rodriguez’ numbers start strong, take a somewhat noticeable step up at age 23 and stay their for about 5 years, then drop back down to prior levels. ‘Sort of correlates with his ’story’.

Griffey, Jr., interestingly enough, shows a curve that looks a lot like Babe Ruth’s. Like Ruth it starts out strong in his very young 20s and overall declines, with a couple of distinct, short dips and peaks along the way. Sort of implies he is following a more ‘natural’ curve for a star slugger? Doesn’t guarantee he is clean, of course.

I’m not going to claim this is conclusive. But to me it is pretty compelling that in Bond’s case, at least, his power ratio is probably tracking his PED usage – and it seems to indicate usage as far back as 1992. The sheer magnitude of the jumps in power ratio in his curve are unlike anybody else’s who wasn’t a PED user. And they are extreme even compared to the other PED users’ I’ve looked at – while still matching the same overall pattern of many of those guys.

Just my opinion, of course.

by mmmmm on Jan 13, 2010 2:45 AM EST up reply actions  

9 fewer hits is significant? Seriously? And the anonymous player, who had 4 of his top 5 XBH/H ratios at age 35+ is Hank Aaron. It doesn’t take much to skew the results. Read the book. If you call XBH/H compelling, actual facts will blow your mind.

by bdunc8 on Jan 13, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

did you not READ what I wrote?
I’ve never claimed that XBH/H is everything one needed to know. It helps to know if the player has switched home parks, of course. Without knowing more, I’d say it doesn’t look like compelling evidence of PED use.

I’d actually looked at Aaron’s XBH/H curve before. I just didn’t recognize it. It doesn’t look at all like what you see in Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, et al.

by mmmmm on Jan 13, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Duke Snider is a better example

Age 22: 36.0%
Age 23: 36.2%
Age 24: 36.3%
Age 25: 32.7%
Age 26: 42.4%
Age 27: 44.7%
Age 28: 49.4%
Age 29: 49.4%
Age 30: 51.8%
Age 31: 29.4% (Moved to Coliseum)
Age 32: 31.6%

I hate defending Bonds because I think he’s a scumbag. But, I believe his numbers up until 1999 were clean and I think he should be in the HoF.

by bdunc8 on Jan 13, 2010 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

good one - i hadn't looked at Snider

One thing that is sort of different (from Bonds, et al) is the steady climb through ages 26-27-28, rather than a sudden jump. That definitely could be his body finishing maturing. Did he get injured at age 31? ’Need to go review his story.

Given the environment and context, I remain suspicious of Bond’s numbers all the way back to 1992.

by mmmmm on Jan 13, 2010 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

1958 is when the Dodgers moved to LA

They played in the Coliseum which had ridiculous dimensions (you might remember the Red Sox playing an exhibition there in 2008). Originally it was 440 to right-center.

http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/national/laxcol.htm

by bdunc8 on Jan 13, 2010 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

He was a 3 time MVP

7 time GG, 7 time SS in ’98, which is when the vast majority of people say he started. He was already a better player than Dawson.

There’s still no way you can say anything is “clearly.”

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Jan 12, 2010 9:44 AM EST up reply actions  

He was not a 3 time MVP before age 27

If you believe he didn’t juice until age 34, in 1999, then yes, his numbers would definitely be HoF worthy.

by mmmmm on Jan 12, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Wrong.

If Bonds had retired at 30, he still might have gotten in. Pencil in some okay years from 30-35 and he for sure would have made it.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jan 12, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Also Disagree w/sean

clemens had 2 cya’s as a sox, a record of 192 & 111, going 40/34 his last 4 years as a red sox, are those hof numbers and accomplishments? 192 & 111 isn’t, but i’m not sure of the 2 cya’s.

clemens first 2 years as a blue jay, starting @ the age of 33, he posted 40 wins and 13 losses. this is also when he has been accused by witnesses of having taken roids. he went on to win, i think, 5 more cya’s after the roids accusations.

i think that the majority of reasonable people, based on the balance of probabilities, would not find clemens worthy of the hof.

by Mick Lowe on Jan 12, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

using steroids was not really against the rules back then.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jan 12, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Just the law.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

by Bloggy on Jan 13, 2010 8:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Yup.

But players can break tons of laws without being black-balled from the HoF.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jan 13, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

poster above, above:

also, what does “ppor” mean?

by Mick Lowe on Jan 11, 2010 8:00 PM EST reply actions  

Post Proof or Retract

We have no way of knowing what McGwire would’ve done without using steroids. There’s no way to say definitively what he could or couldn’t have done.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2010 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahhhhh Yes,

but we do know what kind of career they’ve had with PEDs. We also know everyone one of them lies about it when suspicion comes anywhere near them. And they don’t lie just once. They, like McGwire, lie about over and over again for years. Why lie about it if it’s not such a big deal? Why do players take PEDs? To gain an unnatural advantage over others. That’s cheating plain and simple. It was cheating before the increased testing and it’s still cheating today. If McGwire and the others “could” have accomplished what they would have without PEDs why didn’t they? The notion that grown men have to be told not to cheat is ridiculous by the way. No more cheaters in the Hall.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-mcgwirenew011110&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

by AJBlue7 on Jan 12, 2010 12:01 AM EST reply actions  

Ridiculous argument

You’re expecting athletes to tell the future. They were in a situation where they were essentially allowed to cheat, and that it could get them more money. That is far from proof that it did anything to help performance.

The best line from McGwire is that he had good years on steroids and bad years on steroids, just like good and bad years without.

AJ, do you want to kick Gaylord Perry out of the hall? What about all the other cheaters?

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Jan 12, 2010 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

AJBlue7

good points. good scribe.

by Mick Lowe on Jan 12, 2010 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

want to kick Gaylord Perry out of the hall?

if his making the hof based on his use of roids, then yea.

if it’s based on spitters, yea.

if your argument is based on the one or 2 times he was actually caught, and your conveniently forgetting all the times he was checked but found not to have foreign substances, then no.

by Mick Lowe on Jan 12, 2010 1:16 PM EST reply actions  

So how many times does someone need to get caught?

3 times.

baseball is about 3 chances as in strikes and outs per inning.

of course, if he went to spit on his glove and just edged his glove, that would also be a time unless he had already been caught twice then we would call it a foul spit and give him another chance.

by Mick Lowe on Jan 12, 2010 3:07 PM EST reply actions  

::facepalm::

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Jan 12, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

ha ha

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

by Bloggy on Jan 13, 2010 8:26 AM EST up reply actions  

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