Sox-Rays Postgame: You Expected a Victory?

by 0157H7 on Sep 2, 2009 11:28 PM EDT in Game Stories Comment 48 comments

I don't know about you, but I pencil in a loss every time the Sox play Matt Garza. Especially in the Dreaded Pagan Temple that every night residents of Florida pack, hoping to watch football and coming away disappointed each time. But the Sox made this one a closer game than I expected, and that's the silver lining in this cloud of a game.

Oh, you want a game recap, do you? Well, sonny, in my day we had to walk twenty miles in the hailing snow, uphill both ways, to get the parts for our transistor radio, and half of the time the Sox broadcast was overlaid by Soviet Propaganda radio ("Союз нерушимый республик свободных Сплотила навеки Великая Русь!")... What was I talking about?

Oh yeah, recap. Josh Beckett was good for a while, before he started giving away the game. One batter, if you must know. Carl Crawford took Jawsh deep in the second at-bat of the game, which was a surprisingly non-auspicious way to start the game. 1-0 Rays. In the second inning, the Sox struck back: Kevin Youkilis doubled, and Jason Bay tripled. 1-1. Unfortunately, Beckett had more runs to hand out to Rays hitters: a HR, three singles, and some fielders choices produced three more runs in the 2nd, and a rare Youkilis error led to a run in the 3rd. 5-1 Rays. Sox batters mounted a valiant come-back, chipping away until the score was tied at 5-5 heading to the bottom of the 8th.

Unfortunately, Ramon Ramirez and Manny Delcarmen allowed three runs, to put the Rays on top permanently.

I'm not sure which Sox player deserves recognition for this game. JBay had a nice RBI triple, but he also struck out with men on against a Rays pitcher who probably doubles as a talk show host (Russ Springer). Youk had two doubles and a walk, but he also committed a key error. Joey Gathright managed to cross homeplate without getting punched in the face, but he's not that good at baseball. Takaski Saito showed the Sox what good pitching looks like, but he only pitched two thirds of an inning. I'll leave this gut-wrenching decision in the OTM electorate's capable hands.

Poll

Who is the Sox player of the game?

Jason Bay (1-3, RBI triple).

18 votes

Kevin Youkilis (2-4, 2 doubles, 1 BB).

92 votes

Joey Gathright (run scored, not punched in face).

36 votes

Takashi Saito (.2 scoreless innings).

27 votes

Josh Beckett (why yes, I love the taste of taser!).

33 votes

206 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 48 comments | Share

Story-email Email Printer Print

Read More: Boston Red Sox, Tampa Bay Rays

Comments

Meltdown crew

If Tito had gone with Saito and Wagner and we may have won this game. I feel as the season has progressed Manny and Ramon have become increasingly unreliable, very hit or miss. That said, I hope the sox hang on to Saito and picking up Wagner was a very smart move.

by Mike Dzzz on Sep 3, 2009 2:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

wagner was unavailable

but youre right, ramon and mdc have been bipolar. the wagner deal makes more sense to me now.

by revived0103 on Sep 3, 2009 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I HATE (yes, capital letters, sorry) bullpen second-guessing.

You did not do it, E-Coli, but I can already tell that this is what the thread will turn into. Maybe RamRam should not have come out, maybe MDC should not have been used. Maybe. But who knows? Every pitcher gives up runs and sometimes they give up runs in inopportune times. That is baseball and that will happen.

Sometimes we have reason to be pissed at our managers, but not tonight. We had two of our game-tested, reliable relievers out there and they got hit. It happens. Wagner was not available, Paps pitched 2 innings last night. If we don’t trust RamRam and MDC in that spot then we’re up shit-creek anyway. Its not like he ran Javier Lopez out there.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Sep 3, 2009 4:05 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs

"If we don’t trust RamRam and MDC in that spot then we’re up shit-creek anyway"

We can not trust them, and thus we might want to take action because of that non-trust. That is called strategic planning, and in case you have not noticed, we have been doing quite a lot of it lately. No reason not to focus on what happened to these 2 last night. They did give the game away, and the last time I checked, the objective of the game was to win.

by NG on Sep 3, 2009 7:02 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

On further thought,

I am not saying they need to go; however, there may be something wrong with them or in using them in certain situations. Are they tired or do they need some pitching advice/couching. That sort of thing. MDC has been slipping so he may well be tired or hurting. Don’t know enough about Ramirez. Why wasn’t the flamethrower Bard USED LAST night in such an important serie?? I like flamethrowers in tough relief. No substitute for speed.

by NG on Sep 3, 2009 7:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The :flamethrower Bard" has flamed out in more than a few big situations

I sh*t the bed in Tampa in August. Remember? It was during turning point #437 for you this year, NG.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Sep 3, 2009 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's why.

Why wasn’t the flamethrower Bard USED LAST night in such an important serie??

He was up three times the night before, throwing about 40 pitches. So he was available, but not a first choice.

Man I love that tuna casserole.

by Bloggy on Sep 3, 2009 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But...

the same could be said of Beckett as of late. If you have to rely on RP as often as we’ve had to this season mistakes are bound to occur with increasing frequency.

And just to vent: Beckett’s HR #s are disgusting.

by AJBlue7 on Sep 3, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And they're the only part of his pitching that's sucking.

Which is why it’s so boggling.

@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Sep 3, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

One more thought,

Okajima seems to have the same malady as Rameriz and MDC, so we may well be in your initial situation of , and you can throw Okajima into this mix: “If we don’t trust RamRam and MDC in that spot then we’re up shit-creek anyway”.

Some kind of bullpen strategy that works now is needed, IMO

by NG on Sep 3, 2009 7:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree completely ... with BTLove

Rec’d.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Sep 3, 2009 7:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree with what youre saying but

Tito should have never brought out RamRam for that second inning after sitting in the dugout for that long. The Rays used 3 pitchers during that half inning. He should have started out that inning with MDC, and things might have been different.

by drabidea on Sep 3, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tito has been AWFUL this year with bullpen managment

I honestly don’t think he knows what he is doing.

by drabidea on Sep 3, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know, totally.

He should manage it so that the pen gives up zero runs, every night. Then he should make the hitters get three hits each, every night. There’s really no reason the Sox shouldn’t go 162-0 this year.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Sep 3, 2009 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs

Rec'd

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Sep 3, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rec'd

but this seems to be what people are saying…

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Sep 3, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So RamRam should never pitch a second inning? or never after he has sat for more than 20 minutes? or just never when it turns out he gives up hits?

My point is that people make these critiques only after the guy gives up runs. What kind of procedure should Tito follow? The guy just pitched a 1-2-3 7th and was looking good. Why do you not bring him out? I don’t get it.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Sep 3, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He should never be left in to face a great LHH after sitting for a while.

And most of us were questioning this in the GT last night, as it was happening.

@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Sep 3, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That makes sense.

But with Wagner and Paps unavailable, I think Tito was just trying to conserve his guys. The game was tied and he had to save guys in case of extra innings.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Sep 3, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And

1)MDC sucks-please look at his numbers over the last few months (although to be fair RamRam is no great shakes either).
2)Pena is totally hit or miss-I would not describe him as a great LHB-he is dangerous.
3)There were 2 RHB just behind Pena. Do you was MDC just to get by 1 hitter?
4)Did you like MDCs first pitch to Longoria? That was perhaps the worst pitch I have ever seen. If you want to make sure Longoria homers, just thow that pitch. As bad as the situation was, it actually made me laugh. MDC in the game will amount to damage just like we saw anyway.

by Buzzy on Sep 3, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

MDC's looked a bit better in August though.

Perhaps make some crazy NL switch with the pitcher moving to the OF for a batter? (probably forfeits the DH – I really don’t get those rules)

@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Sep 3, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

RamRam was lights out in the 7th

Taking him out and starting the 8th with someone else is irrational. Terry did not make a bad decision there. He probably should have gone with someone other than MDC, but if Oki got roughed up last night, it’s hard to say that anyone in the pen would’ve been better than Manny. The Rays have a strong offense and they can score runs off anyone.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Sep 3, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rec'd

Seriously…

Man I love that tuna casserole.

by Bloggy on Sep 3, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He left the guy who sucks against LHH in to face Pena.

Instead of bringing in the RHP with LOOGY splits.

@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Sep 3, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The righty with LOOGY splits (MDC) sucked last night

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Sep 3, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Against one of the best RHH in the game...

And a guy that had been good all night.

If he was brought it to face Pena, we don’t know whether he’d be sucky or good, but chances are he would have fared better against him than RamRam did.

@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Sep 3, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is Edward Norton a Rays or So fan? Anyone else see the look-a-like (or maybe him) along the first base line front row?

by BOSPORTS on Sep 3, 2009 9:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Tito, Game managment and the bullpen

I think people are way off base about the pen management in this game. Tito could not use Paps, Oki or Wagner. The last time Bard was put in the very same situation in Tampa (trying to hold a 2-0 lead in the 8th that Lester staked the Sox to) he crapped his pants facing the very same hitters (Longoria) that he would have to face here. The options were:
a)Start the 8th with RamRam
b)Start with MDC
c)Start with Saito.

(a) is the right move. MDC has sucked in the second half of the year. The game is tied and you have a shallow pen after the night before-thus option ( c ) is wrong. RamRam looked great in the 7th. Right move-bad result.

If you want to harp on a management issue-the one to harp on is not letting Lowell pintch hit for Gonzo in the 8th. Bases loaded, and we are letting the worst hitter in the american league hit becuase we are worried about a DP? That is playing to lose. Lowell mashes LHP, has seen Howell a lot, and I would take the risk of a DP over the sure Gonzo out with another LHB coming up after. We were lucky Howell WPed in a run.

by Buzzy on Sep 3, 2009 9:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Disagree

The AL East is a very hard division to pitch in (Smoltz, Penny), I don’t think any relief pitcher besides a long relief pitcher should go out and pitch more then 1 inning. The rare example is Paps pitching the last out in the 8th.

There is absolutely no reason to put a relief pitcher back out for another inning after getting cold in a dugout for that long of a period of time. Especially when we just expanded our roster to a 40 man roster.

RamRam looked great in the 7th, why push the limit? Let him leave on a good note and build some confidence for the playoffs. We still had Saito, MDC, and Bard available. If it stays tied and went into extra innings put in Jones, MacBeth or Tazawa. If you see a chance to win a game against the Rays, you do it.

by drabidea on Sep 3, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with Buzzy, but ...

Let’s assume MDC was the “correct” choice. How do you know he wouldn’t have sucked just as badly starting the inning as he did coming in down a run with a runner on first? As for Saito, he got two lucky outs: a runner thrown out at the plate (he was safe, by the way) and a runner thrown out at third.

If you want a chance to win the game, you don’t use Jones, MacBeth, or Tazawa. Tito tried to get an extra inning out of RamRam, who looked great in the 7th. The Sox had a short pen last night, only 4 “reliable” relievers: RamRam, MDC, Saito, and Bard. Bard is come up small in big spots. It’s understandable that Tito is careful with him. You don’t want to kill the kid’s confidence. The game was tied in the 8th. RamRam pitched a great 7th. By your reasoning, you would have thrown either MDC, Saito, or Bard for an inning each, thereby making it a 50-50 shot that you would try to win it with Jones, MacBeth, or Tazawa.

The problem is, there are not always “correct” choices. All I expect from a manager is: Does the move make sense? Starting the 8th with RamRam made sense given the game. Was it the right move? Probably not. But, then again, MDC and Saito weren’t good either—so the results might have been the same regardless. The one BIG mistake Tito made was letting the pitcher (Gonzo) hit with the bases loaded. Lowell has to hit there.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Sep 3, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

well said.

by Buzzy on Sep 3, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I understand your view

and that’s fine but I think you are dead wrong. RamRam has pitched multiple innings multiple times. He threw a total of 11 pitches in the 7th. MDC has been so bad in the second half (look up the numbers) that if you have a beef it is using him at all in this situation. RamRam was going to face 2 righties (that he usually dominates). So, I don’t see how having MDC available is so meaningful. How did he look to you in that inning? As for Saito and Bard, you don’t use Saito there. If we do, we basically only have Bard and MDC left for a game that very reasonably looks to be going to extras. Also, Saito is no more reliable than RamRam, and as I said, RamRam didn’t even work up a sweat in the 7th either in terms of pitches or difficulty. Bard is not to be put back in that situation in that place against those hitters, at least for now. He has given up a lot of homers lately (4 over a 4 inning span in August), and you might want to use him to shut the door later in the game. There was noting wrong with the move, it just didn’t work out the way we would all have liked.

by Buzzy on Sep 3, 2009 10:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

reply fail-to drabidea above...

by Buzzy on Sep 3, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And the expanded roster

is meaningless. Who are we going to use from the expanded roster, Bowden? Don’t get me started on how this team has panicked to the point of jettisoning usable arms to the point where we have no viable pitching options both in our starting rotation (eg we have no 5th starter, a lagging #1 and Byrd as our 4) and in the expanded pen.

by Buzzy on Sep 3, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This made me laugh...

“Especially in the Dreaded Pagan Temple that every night residents of Florida pack, hoping to watch football and coming away disappointed each time.”

Thanks E for making my lunch break better.

by upCHUCK on Sep 3, 2009 11:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

pitching coach?

Penny and Smoltz go to the NL and pitch great , I can’t believe the NL is ‘That’ weaker. Sox starting pitching has been suspect/ inconsistent all season … maybe it the way the coaching staff is handling the pitchers. They didn’t leave spring training ready for the season.

by Old Fan on Sep 3, 2009 11:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Still a...

really small sample size to make any conclusions about that. But as a fellow fan I understand the head-scratching at Penny pitching 8 shut-out innings, and against the Phillies no less

by AJBlue7 on Sep 3, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

after smoltz left I just thought he was a lot more comfortable in the NL. But if Penny keeps that up, I’m going to be seriously questioning our coaching staff. None of our pitchers have been completely reliable through the year for pitching except wakefield and Lester once he got over that awful beginning of the season. I guess Saito has been pretty on, too.

by wolf9309 on Sep 3, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs