Don't Count on Matsuzaka
by USG on Aug 30, 2009 4:54 PM EDT
56 comments
Scheduled to start on September 9th, Daisuke Matsuzaka is currently spending his Sunday afternoon getting rocked in the first inning of a AA rehab start against the New Hampshire Fishercats--one of the league's worst offensive teams.
Matsuzaka has allowed 5 runs on 3 walks and 4 hits including a home run in the first inning, and doesn't seem to be headed for two. It's worth noting that this is Daisuke's first start in months, but if he doesn't show marked improvement in his next rehab start, it seems doubtful the Sox would take a chance on letting Matsuzaka start again down the stretch before he's shown success.
UPDATE: Matsuzaka did come out for the second recording a short perfect inning including a pop up and strikeout. He appears to be done.
If Dice-K cannot return, the Sox would yet again be struggling to put together a rotation. Beckett, Lester, and Buchholz now seem locked into their roles. Paul Byrd pitched well today and will hopefully continue to be the reliable 5th starter he was last year for the Sox, but Tim Wakefield's health is questionable, which could leave an open spot.
The Sox would have relatively limited choices. The 2 obvious names are Junichi Tazawa and Michael Bowden, but both were shelled in their short MLB stints (as good as Tazawa's results were in a few games, he was hit hard). Another possible option would be Randor Bierd, who was recently converted from a reliever into a starter. He's had some limited and unimpressive major league experience in Baltimore out of the pen, and has been similarly mediocre in the minors, but it might be worth it to take a shot on a new face, and in the process avoid ruining Tazawa and Bowden.
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DoubleyouBeeCeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!
(a’la Wrath of Khan)
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Aug 30, 2009 5:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Judging from the belly, it was more like:
- KayEffCeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!*
Man I love that tuna casserole.
by Bloggy on Aug 30, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
well ...
He came to camp, acting like he was taking this year off anyway.
by Old Fan on Aug 30, 2009 5:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dice K
Please bring him up long enuf to win one, maybe two games and then trade him to the Rangers in the off season for one of the 1000 some odd catchers they seem have down there. They seem to want his style of play down there if all the rumors are true. I’ll even pony up a buck or two for his salary. Frankly his 18-3 last year was a fluke and he’ll never be more than a number four starter for the Sox. Which makes him too expensive to keep. Ahh, for the good old days when we thought the Sox actually had seven starters.
by papoonforpresident on Aug 30, 2009 7:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Those Ranger catching prospects haven't been so hot lately or for this year as a matter of fact.
I will agree with the 18-3 fluke, but the Redsox must understand the reprecussions a Dice-K trade would have in their Japanese market. Things would be just easier if he would start performing again. At this point, let him take the rest of the year off if he can’t get AA batters out.
"Hating the New York Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers and cheating on your income tax." -- Mike Royko
by sox-inda-south on Aug 30, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, how many games does the Japanese market win for the Sox?
Are they hitting .295? ERA under 3.50? Golden Glove? And although I have to agree that Salti and the rest of the catchers down there aren’t shining right now. I’d sure like to see a back up catcher next year to give Martinez some time off or even to play first to give the infield some relief or even the DH. And again I understand it’s all money all the time but I love to see the Sox win the Series again and again and again. BTW I’m no bandwagon Soxer, I grew up eating YAZ bread and my first fishing outfit was a Ted Williams special. Been a long time lurker though.
by papoonforpresident on Aug 30, 2009 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, how many games has the market had influence over so far?
We have our own set of really good catching prospects in the minors that could start coming up next year.
@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 30, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I love to see the Sox win the Series again and again and again"
Just think that if you were born in 1919, you would have gone 85 years without a Sox WS victory. Now after a stretch like that, it is okay to want “to see the Sox win the Series again and again and again” Even if you are only 65, it is still okay because 60 years is long enough to wait!
by NG on Aug 30, 2009 7:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And the way the team is being run, they have an excellent chance to win it...
EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Just think of where we’d be without Wake, Smoltz or Penny – the fact that you think we’re depending too much on Wake speaks to just how good he’s been, NG.
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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 30, 2009 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course we're not counting on Dice-K.
He’s got at least one more start to make before coming back to the majors – like you said, this is his first start in a while, so I’d want to see how he does in his next start, after recovering from his first start and working out in-between them.
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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 30, 2009 8:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And we've got a decent rotation and a couple of offdays around his start.
If he sucks, he might get one more start in the majors, but then he’d be put on the DL from there. Then the rotation is Beck, Lester, Buch, Byrd, and then Wake/Taz/Bowden/other callup. That’s a great chance to win 2 of those games, a push in a third, a slight disadvantage in a fourth and fifth, with a chance to get a good start from the last two spots. That’s a lot better than most other teams, and we have a good enough offense that we should be able to cover up a bad start.
@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 30, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course not...
we didn’t even count on him BEFORE rehab.
by Mister Snitch on Aug 31, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We don't need to count on dice as much as we need to see what he's got.
I think Theo will have dice up here for at least 2 starts as long as we’ve put a cushion between the rays & the rangers for the wild card. A big reason, to agree with a previous post, is to showcase him for a possible winter trade. Another reason will be to see if we can count on him for next year with any degree of certainty. Of course his performance, or lack thereof, will answer both questions.
by thaipatsfan on Aug 30, 2009 10:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't trade Daisuke...
This season is a lost, but if he gets into shape, concentrates on three to four pitches, instead of trying to have an arsenal of six pitches. Lowers his WHIP in spring training. He can be still a very good pitcher.
The Sox got Daisuke for one main reason: strikeouts. If he still has a very high WHIP, by the end of Spring training, comes to camp out of shape, and complains the Sox pitching staff is out to get him, then send him to a NL team for two prospects.
The only good game he pitch this year was against the Tigers at Comerica Park. I still think he can work it out, but the window for him to turn it around, is closing. He can’t be throwing meatballs high and in the middle of the plate, and expect to be a starting pitcher in the AL East. I still think he is a very good pitcher, if he gets his act together.
by superferret on Aug 31, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The sox got Daisuke for one main reason:
A japanese dog and pony show to attract the Japanese masses.
That’s why Boston paid all that money to get him.
Face facts:
Keeping Matsuzaka is – and has ALWAYS been -about pleasing a Japanese populace who are only interested in racial competitions; they’re not interested in the Red Sox, and turn the games off immediately once Matsuzaka’s stat-line is finished.
Essentially, he’s the same phenomenon as Ichiro in Seattle – and he will destroy the Red Sox organization as completely as Ichiro has done to Mariners if the Boston brass allows the Japanese phenomenon to dictate organizational direction.
by Terrekain on Aug 31, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is not that he is reliable
It is just batters from better hitting teams than the Jays like the MFY and the Rays will figure him out.
by superferret on Aug 31, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is just batters will figure out his deceptions
especially better hitting teams than the Jays, like the MFY and the Yankees…
See how he does in his next start, when is it ? Friday or Saturday? against the lesser Sox.
The two best games I ever seen Byrd Pitch was game 4 of 2007 ALDS and game 4 2007 ALCS..
by superferret on Aug 31, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
opps this was meant for byrd as the subject,
sorry, which there was a cancel command…
by superferret on Aug 31, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not a troll, Ferret.
He’s just saying that the Sox signed Dice-K mainly to draw the Japanese market and audience. I’d agree that it’s a big reason why, but he is also a good pitcher who could turn into a very good pitcher if he learns to pitch in the zone, not around it or to it.
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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 31, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or because they thought he'd be a good pitcher....
and they keep him because going forward he is fairly cheap.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Aug 31, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leave Tazawa & Bowden out of the mix.
As for the pitchers actually here and performing, I would settle in with Beckett, Lester, Bucholtz, Byrd (way to go old man) & fill in the blank. Hopefully Wake will settle in after a week or so. I’d tread with caution with Bowden and Tazawa. I think they have great potential as middle of the rotation type of guys. It’s always better, and significantly cheaper, to develop those types from within.
by thaipatsfan on Aug 30, 2009 10:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok
But fill in the blank, please, assuming Wake doesn’t come back. If he does, we obviously don’t have any huge problems. But it’s disconcerting that we’ve got to spot start for him.
by USG on Aug 30, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wanna know who would have been okay in the "blank"?
maybe Penny, or Smoltz. I wish we could get players like those guys.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Aug 31, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry
but they were useless. absolutely useless.
by revived0103 on Aug 31, 2009 3:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope - Penny would have been perfect for this role.
The #5 spot was what we signed him for.
And Smoltz would have been good if we could have convinced him to go to AAA until he regressed back to pitching like he should have been pitching.
@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 31, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really.
You could NOT keep giving Smoltz starts the way he was throwing. The guy was getting absolutely rocked each and every time out, and it’s not like he’s a long-term investment to begin with. Sox did well to cut their losses when they did.
Penny I sort of agree with you, but he’d been pretty awful for the last 2 months (5.93 and 8.31 ERAs) and given his tendency to do worse in the second half, it seemed like more of a typical post-ASB regression than a blip. A 6.00 ERA is bad even for a #5.
by USG on Aug 31, 2009 7:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with BT
Disclamer: I am fully aware that Smoltz and Penny sucked for us. This is not a post to start an argument about their performance.
The problem with the releasing of the two of them is that our options are so thin. Tazawa should not be pitching in the majors right now-if only for the sake of development. I thought this team had learned their lesson from the Hansen debacle. Furthermore, his pitching (depite the 2 godsend wins) was not at MLB level, and going forward I think I would have more faith in the veterans we released, as bad as they had been. The team had to know that Wake’s health is iffy-it cannot be relied on. So where does that leave us? We have 4 starters right now, and one is named Byrd. Smoltz had 4 awful starts in a row, but there are and were indications that he can still pitch. His peripherals are infintely better than Tazawa’s. 2 of those 4 starts were against the very same team that he looked good agaisnt in his second start-so we cannot just claim that he “can’t pitch to AL lineups.” Most distressing of all is that both were cut loose after bad losses to the Yankees. That is not a coincidence. It is the same kind of reactionary panic move the we have laughed at them for pulling over the last 5 years. So…now we can’t rely on Wake or Dice-K for the rest of the year. Please tell me-who is our 5th starter? And is Byrd our 4th?
by Buzzy on Aug 31, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I totally agree
With you an BT, that is.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Aug 31, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup.
It seems like we cut those guys almost as a favor to them. Why not just push Smoltz into the pen for a few weeks? or put one of them one the DL for a week or so? These are pitchers that have shown they can be useful in the majors, but we just gave them away and now it looks like we might need one (or both) of them.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Aug 31, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are the Yankees still
interested in Penny? There were claims yesterday that thy wanted to pick him up.
by Buzzy on Aug 31, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like we couldn't convince them that they were important.
Penny asked for his release, and Smoltz refused the assignment – perhaps the tag (low risk, high reward) offended them b/c they felt like they were just trials.
@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 31, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rec'd.
This is where the post RJ wrote comes in.
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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 31, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But with the time off he could have been able to bounce back.
And IIRC he got pretty bad defense behind him.
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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 31, 2009 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't rely on Byrd...
Byrd is all about deception. He is more in the same category as David Wells, where he is going to baffle hitters during a game or just get hammered… I think it helped Byrd that he hasn’t been pitching in the Majors this year, he was going against a struggling Jays line up, so it difficult to pick up his tricks. After a couple viewing of the videotapes, a few starts for Byrd, may not look so pretty for the Sox.
by superferret on Aug 31, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Byrd can be reliably league average
He is valuable.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Aug 31, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but I'd prefer the average starter be the #5 and not the #4.
At least Penny and Smoltz had the stuff that would allow them to be dominate once in a while.
@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 31, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fill in the blank?
Good question. How about a “by committee” approach. Tito could start Tazawa, but apply “Taza rules” and allow him to throw a set amount of pitches/innings. Perhaps the plan would then call for D.Bard to throw 2 innings which could also aid his development as well. With the addition of B.Wagner the pen is well stocked to allow that type of approach. Hopefully this could accomplish 2 things: 1. structured development of 2 young pitchers for the future (next year) & 2. 5 to 6 solid innings of work every 5th day. It could not be worse than the combined efforts of Dice & Smoltz (3-10 8+ era).
by thaipatsfan on Aug 30, 2009 11:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
to be honest i have never heard this idea before
starter by committee, like closer by committee. at least its getting me thinking.
by revived0103 on Aug 31, 2009 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
isn’t it one of NG’s ideas? to use a different pitcher every single inning?
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Aug 31, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Aug 31, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
Only problem with this approach is that Bard and whoever else is used on Taz days become unusable for a day or so.
@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 31, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His request
And his ~7 ERA since the end of June.
by USG on Aug 31, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love his WHIP when he hits me in the BUTT with it!
Also DICE-K isn’t that sucky. He only sucks right now.
by bucimislover on Aug 31, 2009 8:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WTF at all the butt comments.
@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 31, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we're only talking 5 or 6 more starts
this is a manageable situation for tito. given the three off days this month he’ll be able to juggle the 5th slot w/out too much trouble, which is why i suggested the “by committee” approach. there is a good possibility we’ll have the wild card wrapped up by game 156 or 157 anyway. in regards to penny, in a way he served his purpose relatively well. his first half was very respectable for a 5th starter & we couldn’t have expected anything more. he simply doesn’t hold up for the duration, so his second half numbers are not surprising. still, i’d rather have our young guys get a “taste” of a pennant race rather than run out a couple of guys who simply cannot get it done anymore. how much confidence would you have w/smoltz opening up against the rays? his resurgence has come against the pads & the nats, but we already know he can handle AAA lineups so this should be no surprise. there are no AAA lineups in the AL EAST however.
anyway, i’m new to this site & it’s a great discussion…
by thaipatsfan on Aug 31, 2009 11:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thai, use the "reply" button please.
Makes the thread easier to read.
@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Sep 1, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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