Over the Monster: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Spencer Hall's Sports Meme Power Rankings

Bloody Sox Laundry - 8/29/09

DENIED!!!!

More photos » by Winslow Townson - AP

DENIED!!!!

This has been a weird season - some of us are rooting for the MFY to help us in the Wild Card race, while others are hoping for some of our key players to fail. We're arguing about the roster for next year and beyond, when there's issues with it right now (more on that later). Sometimes, we need to look to our enemies for a better perspective.

The Difference Between Boston and Tampa Bay - DRaysBay
Disclaimer: there's a lot of very weird stuff that is talked about regularly in the comments over there. The post itself is what I'm linking to, but I'm going to give fair warning for the possibly offensive comments. That said, I completely agree with what RJ says - the extra money and fan pressure make the situations harder to compare, but the Sox really do need to find a way to keep a hold on guys who are likely to regress.

Another semi-related link from the same author, but at another blog (RJ's a hard working blogger):

A Quiz - FanGraphs Baseball
This help any of you anti-Smoltz guys get what we're trying to say?

After the jump, we try to figure out the motives for the MFY-Chris Carter claim and plan Nick Green's next adventure.

Star-divide

New York Yankees-Boston Red Sox rivalry reaches waiver wire - ESPN

But the Yankees, sources said, placed a claim on Carter -- perhaps to create some 40-man roster discomfort for the Red Sox. In order to complete the Wagner trade, the Red Sox are now pulling Carter back from waivers, and for the rest of the year they must carry him on their 40-man roster.

And now we have another excuse to call them the MFY.

Martinez's Presence Bringing Out the Best in Big Papi - NESN.com
The logic at the beginning of this article makes me want to throw stuff, but hey, whatever works.

Q+A with 'untouchable' prospect Ryan Westmoreland - Fire Brand of the American League

USG, when are you going to start getting these? Wonder what he'd think of our nickname for him.

Green's your man in a pinch - Extra Bases

With last night’s outing on the mound, Green has now played all but one position: catcher. And it’s not like that thought hasn’t crossed his mind.

I'd suggest that Green could be the solution to our baserunner holding issues, but after Tek's awesome block last night (see pic), I'm back on the "keep Tek" wagon - unless he wants to become the catching coach.

Find links, post them, try not to get banned if you visit blogs of other teams. Hurray weekend!

0 recs  |  Comment 39 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

I agree with RJ's post

more than I disagree. I think there has been a high degree of quick triggered operating by our FO. It bothers me. There is a high degree of pressure to make such moves due to expectations. Further, the “low risk high reward” signings seemed to come with the unwritten notion that “you are not really Sox, you are trial low cost rentals.” It seems to make releasing guys mid season so much easier…

by Buzzy on Aug 29, 2009 8:09 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

Better hope that Henry&Co. don’t have sudden financial issues.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 29, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because they could just cut him?

They don’t want him, they could easily just let him go to another team. Plus, we’d have to replace Carter with a similar player to give to the Mets.

DFA Beckett

by South Coast Ghost on Aug 29, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah but,

he’d still be on our 40 man roster when we send him to the Mets? Waiver deals are confusing. :(

Chowdah Chatter
Fear the Rebel Polar Bears

by crabchowdah on Aug 29, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Umm... no.

The 40 man roster is the 25 man + 15 minor leaguers that they don’t want picked up during the Rule 5 draft. Since this trade is being made after the July 31 deadline, we have to put a player through waivers to trade him, even if it’s just sending him back for another player acquired on waivers.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 29, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is what confused me
In order to complete the Wagner trade, the Red Sox are now pulling Carter back from waivers, and for the rest of the year they must carry him on their 40-man roster.

Oh well

Chowdah Chatter
Fear the Rebel Polar Bears

by crabchowdah on Aug 30, 2009 7:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They have to wait until the end of the season to send him to the Mets now...

Because he didn’t make it through the waiver process that would have allowed us to send him to them NOW.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 30, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, nice interview with Westmoreland

Too bad last night he broke his collarbone, will be out for the rest of the season but should be back by ST next year.

DFA Beckett

by South Coast Ghost on Aug 29, 2009 11:55 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

They should put up a Surgeon General's Warning on Fire Brand interviews

“Warning: Answering questions from a Fire Brand correspondent can cause sudden and season-ending injuries such as running into walls while making spectacular catches. Please direct any and all interview requests through Over the Monster for safer results.”

DFA Beckett

by South Coast Ghost on Aug 29, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, said and rec'd.

I’d also like to add that maybe if you could get Rays fans into the stadium without bribing them with powder blue cowbells, they might have more money to work with.

Man I love that tuna casserole.

by Bloggy on Aug 29, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still, can you ever really have enough cowbell?

“Penny and Smoltz were stop gaps until Buchholz and or Bowden/Tazawa were ready to move into a rotation spot.”

Absolutely. Let’s face it, Tazawa isn’t built to last an entire season. Maybe he can grow into that kind of shape, but not yet. Same’s true, maybe to a lesser degree, of Buchholz. Penny/Smoltz were intended to bide time. If one or both actually took hold, great. But what was the alternative? Take a chance on Buchholz/Tazawa from Day One, and then when one or both breaks down after the AS break, what then? Would they be able to pick up a Penny or Smoltz to fill out the season at THAT point? Of course not. As SoxAcumen says, it’s a chess game. (The Sox FO approaches its business much like I suspect the owner’s hedge fund does.)

Penny’s built to be a bullpen arm, not a starter. But he’s in serious denial. Really, he’s his own worst enemy.

And:

“Carl Crawford welcome to Boston…”

Oh, baby! If only. Double steals EVERY night.

by Mister Snitch on Aug 29, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except he's got a team option for next year.

I would LOVE to sign him for like 1/2 of what Holliday or Bay would get, but it’s not going to happen this offseason.

Also, the argument is that Penny and Smoltz are good enough that we should have been willing to wait for them to regress b/c they would have been better than our current #5 option(s).

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 29, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

@#$%...me and my unnecessary commas.

EMBARRASSING.

Man I love that tuna casserole.

by Bloggy on Aug 29, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

rec’d and…god i wish we got king felix….whatever the price.
And i actually find it kindv sad that the rays were willing to get rid of kazmir like this.

by spinz on Aug 29, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still think there is an excellent chance to get King Felix

Its up to Seattle really, but if they do not want to pay him, Felix becomes the most important arm on the market and I expect Boston to dump the farm for him and this time the Yankees cannot compete.

by SoxAcumen on Aug 29, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The AL West might actually be winnable in the next few years for Seattle

I think that’s the key. The Angels have money but never seem to spend it, and the Rangers are slowly ramping up with their minor league talent. Mariners might have a small window to win it here before the Rangers young guys become more consistent.

But there are other young pitchers who will be looking at extensions in the coming year. King Felix is the big one, but there are others like the Marlins’ Josh Johnson. Considering the FA market for pitchers this offseason, a trade is probably the best bet. Do you think they’d be comfortable going into next year with a rotation of:

Beckett
Lester
Dice-K
Buchholz
Wake

I’m not sure.

DFA Beckett

by South Coast Ghost on Aug 29, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It all depends, really.

If Dice can prove that he has the stuff and that this year was strictly due to fatigue and lack of conditioning due to the WBC, then I think it looks pretty solid.

I think the order would be this at the outset based on this year:

Beckett
Lester
Wakefield
Dice-K
Buchholz

Wake and Dice could be switched depending on performance. I am also unsure if Buch starts in Pawtucket or Boston next season. Most likely I think he’ll stay in the majors but one never knows.

I know it's early, but it's never too early for a little optimism and hope. All I know is that Soxtober is the best month of the year.

by BHeebs on Aug 29, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Move Buch up to #3 and I agree.

And that’s the rotation we would have had if Buch beat out Penny and Smoltz for #5 and everyone stayed healthy.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 29, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I reacted pretty strongly to this DRays post the first time it was recommended...

…and in retrospect, I think it was because I took it to be something of an “Anatomy of a Jackass” post like the far superior one from LGT! concerning CC Sabathia and the Yankees – some fact, but definitely an us = good guys; them = bad guys (on either a performance or a “moral” metric or both). The performance argument is largely unsupported by the historical results (and displays the typical Rays fan’s impression that only 2008 counts), or the present unfortunate situation. Its also an argument (as SoxAcumen points out) which mistakes the regrettable roster-shuffling clusterfrak this year for an organizational philosophy, rather than a “flood-waters rising” back-up to the back-up plan. The average organization’s plan would have been to pull stakes on the season. The moral argument obviously has no traction at OTM.

R.J.’s work is good stuff, but this is not his best (although audience appropriate at DRays Bay).

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Aug 29, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kazmir is 100% NOT the best Rays pitcher

As of now, he’s barely above average, which makes his contract right on the money. However, the Rays can’t afford to pay market value per win.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 30, 2009 7:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

of course

but many on this site don’t understand things like this. Funny however, that I had this discussion with RJ after Kazmir’s 3rd start. RJ contended he was a #1 starter, while I thought that was a vast overrating of Kazmir. Of course he wouldn’t say that now, but it is true that 06-07 Kazmir was a very effective starting pitcher. He is past his prime and way overpriced at this stage.

by Buzzy on Aug 30, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

by overpriced

i mean = to fangraphs value which is above or at the upper limit of what teams will pay.

by Buzzy on Aug 30, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Fangraphs thing:

not very interesting. Those are all good to very good pitchers. Im aware that Halladay has had a few bad starts his last few times. But that was preceded by four months of awesome. But you want to compare him to Smoltz.

by revived0103 on Aug 29, 2009 6:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

You know from a larger sample size that Halladay’s better than that 40 innings says. Why wouldn’t you use Smoltz’s career over the most recent 40 innings, even if he was injured recently?

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 29, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it is and was clear

that Smoltz can still pitch. We saw flashes of excellent pitching (not just results) in his starts here, along with big command issues. He lost little velocity on his fastball, and still showed at times a nasty slider and splitter. He was inconsistant to say the least, but what do you expect from a guy who had not pitched in 14 months coming off major surgery? I really do think he could have been effective with us, but it was not clear how long the process was going to be. I wonder if his last bad start was not against the Yankees if the decision would have been so abrupt. If the team didn’t think a pennant race was the place to let a guy work out his command issues (which is logical) they should not have signed him in the first place. Fans on this site are a bit funny. They always want “the next thing;” they are happy when Dice goes down because “we have Smoltz,” then they are happy to dump Smoltz. They are happy when Wake goes down, because “now we get to see Clay.” The want to dump Penny because Tazawa, a raw AA pitcher threw a few lucky games. Then when Tazawa gets the inevitable shelling…well you get the picture. It is one things for fans to have thins kind of mentality, but when it seems to rub off on the FO it is a bit worring.

BTW-one thing that RJ is wrong about is “regression to the mean.” He is misusing this term. The mean that one regresses to is the hypothetical infinite sample mean. We can’t use someone’s 40 inning sample to define that, and as you say, it is not clear what this hypothetical mean is. You can use someones FIP, etc, but these things are also still strongly fluctuating quantities over such a sample size. For example, Smoltz luckily didn’t allow a HR in his first 3+ starts…

by Buzzy on Aug 30, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He was saying that Smoltz is more likely to be the pitcher he's been for the past decade plus...

And that his performance should regress to it – making his career numbers the “mean.”

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 30, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hard to

make that argument for a guy this age who has not pitched in more than 1 year coming off serious surgery.

by Buzzy on Aug 30, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

He would regress to his population mean statistically. Which is all 42 year old pitchers coming off of surgery, who still have good stuff.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 31, 2009 5:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see.

How does one know what the hypothetical infinite measurement baseline is for a 42 year old guy recovering from surgery? That was my point. You can look at his numbers (swing strike rate, K rate, BAPIP…) but these are also not static, and the sample is very small. I don’t see a reasonable rigorous argument here. Do we know the population mean for “42 year old pitchers coming off of surgery, who still have good stuff.”?

by Buzzy on Aug 31, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, that's the problem

Which is why it’s almost impossible to judge a pitcher based off a small sample size using stats. You can use Pitch f/x data, which is much more stable, but it’s not perfect.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 31, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Over The Monster, an SB Nation community that delivers news and analysis while encouraging discussion regarding everything regarding the Boston Red Sox organization. OTM was founded Feb. 22, 2005.
Start posting about the Red Sox »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Rorscach_small
The Adventures of Statman: Attack of the Scioscier
Rorscach_small
RED SOX VS. YANKEES (TEAM OF TEH TWO CENTURIES = 1900 TO 2100) - JUST THE FACTS

Recent FanPosts

Military-explosion-20799_small
Bay to the Yankees? Holliday to the Red Sox?
Small
Jason Bay rejects Sox offer
Small
Damon may not sign with yanks....scary
Small
Baseball Prospectus' Top 11 Red Sox Prospects
Small
Wagner could accept Arbitration
Redsoxlogo_small
Free Agents
Img587561916661595
Top 15 high school MLB draft prospects
Life_is_brighter_after_guinness_small
Sox, Wakefield Agree to 2-year/$5 Million Contract
Chewbacca_pitch_red_sox_small
Who is your daddy and what does he do?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

N32606527_32219358_6072_small Randy Booth

Editors

Master_shake_small Allen Chace

Rorscach_small 0157H7

Authors

Zissou551_small SoxDevil

Helmet_icon_small bs.uf15bosox9bears23

Pedroia_small ltrain2

Red_seat_small USG

Small soxstats