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Bloody Sox Laundry, Aug. 23: Seeing the Yanks in October, Wagner confusion and is 2009 the new 2004?

The Boston Bash Brothers

More photos » by Elise Amendola - AP

The Boston Bash Brothers

After a 20-11 game and a 14-1 followed, it's a wild time in Red Sox Nation.

Before the Sox try to win the series against the Yankees tonight (your move, Mr. Josh Beckett), here's some nice Sunday reading for you to check up on.

Star-divide

Don't understand the Red Sox claiming Billy Wagner? Jonathan Papelbon doesn't get it either:

"Is he ready to pitch or is he not? You know what I mean?" asked Papelbon. "I think our bullpen is good where we’re at right now. Don’t get me wrong. But I guess you could always make it better. It’s kind of like the Gagne thing, I guess."

Ah, the Gagne thing. In 2007, the Sox had the best bullpen ERA in the majors thanks to the dominant work of Jonathan Papelbon, Hideki Okajima and Manny Delcarmen (among others). But the Sox worried about the toll of the season on Okajima especially (the Japanese lefty, in his rookie year, had to be shut down for a stretch due to fatigue), and so the Sox traded for Eric Gagne at the July 31 deadline.

Theo Epstein is all about depth and that's what Wagner brings. But even Manny Delcarmen is questioning if bringing Wagner on is the right thing. If it does happen and Wagner pitches poorly, how can you blame him? His future teammates are already shooting him down:

"We loved Gagne coming over here, just the stuff that he had, but it was an awkward situation this late in the season," said Delcarmen. "I think our bullpen is fine right now.

"It is what it is. If (Wagner) comes and helps us win, that’s what we want. But sometimes, shaking things up this late might work out different. We’ll see what happens."

Allan Wood is proving Jim Rice wrong. One quotation at a time:

Rice isn't worth this work, but here goes:

1. "baggy uniforms" - Throughout most of baseball history, players wore baggy uniforms. Pictures exist of this. However, baseball also often follows American styles and in the Rice era, players wore tight pants. Rice's generation is the anomaly, not the rule.

2. "dreadlocks" - Statistical studies have shown that your choice of hair style do not make you hit or pitch better (or worse) than another person with "normal" hair. And check out some of the Afros from Rice's day, like Oscar Gamble's. Plus, the Afro was a political statement first associated with the Black Power Movement.

And the list continues. It's unfortunate Rice is getting this much flake, but it's hard to say he doesn't deserve it. Let's hope he can leave this trainwreck with just a bruise and nothing more...

Did you know how good the AL East second basemen really are? I've never really thought about it closely before, but Tyler Hissey breaks it down: Dustin Pedroia or Robinson Cano is the question in this post:

New York Yankees beat reporter Joel Sherman recently posed an interesting question to seven front office executives. Sherman, who writes for the New York Post, asked each front office exec which second baseman they would rather have as their starter over the next five years: Robinson Cano or Dustin Pedroia.

Pedroia, the reigning American League Most Valuable Player, was the easy winner, collecting all seven votes in the informal poll. The reason, according to the article, was that the diminutive Boston second baseman has better makeup, is a "leader" and "winner."

[...]

Going forward, there are so many factors that will end up determining which mid-20s star will have the better career. Pedroia, to me, is the safer pick, though, and make-up is only a minor reason why. He is more consistent, has much better plate discipline and is the better defender. Cano has a ton of talent himself (with more power), and, if he can improve his walk rate and become more selective, could emerge into a real stud. Even if that does not happen, he should be a tremendous asset for the Yankees. He is an excellent player, indeed, and New York fans should accept him for what he is.

Pedroia, though, would get my pick.

Pedroia is a no-brainer over Cano, but like Hissey said, it's hard to take anything away from Cano. He's a talented ballplayer with a pretty good skillset. Brian Roberts, though, may take the cake out of all these guys. I'll still take Pedroia, but Roberts just wrecks the ball. 1. Pedroia, 2. Roberts, 3. Cano, in my opinion (let's not even talk about super utility man Ben Zobrist).

The "power of three" is great. But isn't two better than three? No? Well, maybe? For the Sox's sake I hope so:

If you believe in the power of threes, the Cardinals, Yankees, Red Sox, and Phillies have a chance to emerge as very good postseason teams, because having three top starters is important in the playoffs.

According to former pitching coach Rick Peterson, the two staffs that pop out are the Yankees’ and Phillies’. Philadelphia, he said, is "without question one of the best rotations in the game.’’ And the Yankees "look like they’ll be tough in the playoffs.’’

If we're talking twos, I'll take Josh Beckett and Jon Lester over anyone, in my opinion. If we're sticking with threes, though, I can't say the same for the Sox's No. 3 starter. Clay Buchholz could be good, but he's not proven yet. Tim Wakefield and Daisuke Matsuzaka are question marks as well.

And as Drugs Delaney pointed out, Red Sox's two > Yankees' two. No question about it.

Here's hoping that 2009 is the new 2004. I'd love for it to happen, but lightning rarely strikes twice.

In 2004, after 121 games (same as Saturday) they were 6.5 games back. On August 23 (that's today), they started a 10-game winning streak and finished three games back. They never caught the Yankees, but they still made the playoffs, setting up the magical four-game comeback that turned every Red Sox fan in America into an insufferable jerkoff.

So what happens next? One thing I can guarantee you is that if the Red Sox and Yankees do end up meeting in the ALCS, there won't be quite as many folks rooting for the collapse of the Evil Empire this time. Oh sure, the Yanks are still a boil on the face of baseball, but the Sawx have become the equally ugly wart on its nose. It's the kind of un-winnable choice that occasionally makes sports fandom seem futile.

Yes, please.

October: You, me, those guys -- let's do it. Red Sox and Yankees could find themselves in more matchups come October:

We're getting the Red Sox at their best and the Yankees at their worst. Or we're getting the Yankees at their best and the Red Sox at their worst.

There hasn't yet been one point this year where Yankees-Red Sox felt like an even matchup. But maybe there's still time for that.

Maybe that's what October is for.

Maybe that's where this is heading.

I would like to point out that the 15 inning, 0-0 game was most certainly a "matchup." That was the best game of the year, in my opinion. So I think Mr. Knobler is off a little bit in that sense, but the fact these two could face again in the ALCS is definitely a possibility. It's something that I think everyone in RSN would love to witness.

Beckett v. Sabathia -- to the death. Beckett and Sabathia will meet for the first time since game 5 of the 2007 ALCS:

Josh Beckett and CC Sabathia have faced each other before on a grand stage. Never, however, under the bright lights of the storied rivalry that is Red Sox-Yankees.

That'll change on Sunday night at Fenway Park, where the 14-game winners will square off in their first meeting since Game 5 of the 2007 American League Championship Series.

[...]

"They're both great pitchers who have great stuff," said Boston slugger Victor Martinez, who has had the privilege of catching both hurlers. "They're very focused on what they're doing. They know exactly what they're doing, and they're very tough."

Winning this series would be sweet and now it's all on Beckett's shoulders. If the Sox were to win one of these games in the series, this would be it.

Go Sox!

0 recs  |  Comment 28 comments |

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Who's side are you on?

You’re sounding like a Yankees fan, love site and the blogs, but didn’t like this article.

by Ronnie G on Aug 23, 2009 8:23 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like someone who can take a balanced perspective.

Which does not sound like you. Let me guess..your vocabulary when it comes to Sox-Yanks rivalry does not expand anywhere beyond “Yankees Suck”.

by upCHUCK on Aug 23, 2009 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Good, fair, informed piece. Rooting for the Sox without a doubt, but certainly not in that brain-dead way preferred by most Yankee fans. (And unfortunately, some Sox fans.)

by Mister Snitch on Aug 23, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does Not Like

I can’t say I’m a big fan of Papelbon and MDC making a bunch of negative comments about Wagner before he even gets there. Not professional in the least. I mean, I guess you expect it from Paps…but I hope this isn’t an attitude that is infesting the ’pen now.

Man I love that tuna casserole.

by Bloggy on Aug 23, 2009 9:23 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Why not?

Why not take a chance on Wagner? The team is reeling, we have ONE lefty in the bullpen, and it’s not like there’s any good bullpen September call-ups we have coming anyway.

by Ronnie G on Aug 23, 2009 10:20 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

MDC

is like another lefty they way he pitches to LHB. We don’t need another lefty. If we indeed “add” another arm I hope it is not an overpriced project like Wagner.

by Buzzy on Aug 23, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because he'd have to take someone's spot for the time until September...

And then if he’s on the 25 man roster on Sep. 1, he’s taking a spot in the playoffs – could be a wasted space if he sucks.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 23, 2009 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

PAP'S EGO COULD BE A PROBLEM

IF PAPELBON HAD BEEN DOING HIS JOB PROPERLY IN THE FIRST PLACE, THE WAGNER ISSUE WOULDN’T EVEN EXIST. PAP’S EFFECTIVENESS HAS DEFINITELY BEEN DIMINISHING THIS YEAR. PAP’S ADRENALINE ADDICTION HAS CAUSED HIM TO THROW MORE PITCHES, TO WALK MORE BATTERS, AND TO ALLOW MORE HITS IN SITUATIONS WHERE THEY ARE GOING TO CAUSE PROBLEMS. IF HE’S SO INSECURE THAT HE’S GOING TO BE CRITICAL OF THEO’S MOVE TO BRING WAGNER TO THE SOX, THEN PAP IS GOING TO BE THE DISRUPTIVE FORCE IN THE BULLPEN, WHICH IS GOING TO BE DETRIMENTAL TO THE TEAM. SO, PAP, MANNY ET AL HAD BETTER WELCOME WAGNER AND SUPPORT HIM OR THEY MAY BE THROWING ANY CHANCE OF VICTORY AWAY. (APOLOGIES/ALL-CAPS/VISION PROBLEM)

by ED4REDSOX on Aug 23, 2009 10:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

PAP'S EGO COULD BE A PROBLEM... or....

Getting Wagner could be just the thing to light a fire under the guy. (Though I don’t believe Wagner is being brought in to close. At most, he’s a bridge to Paps, and more likely he’s just another arm in the ’pen.)

“(APOLOGIES/ALL-CAPS/VISION PROBLEM)”
Eh? I hit Command-plus and enlarge the page. This works on my Mac, anyway, but it’s probably the same on any machine using a modern browser. All-caps isn’t much use to me in terms of imrpoved text readability.

by Mister Snitch on Aug 23, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wagner

I really think this is all a moot point. First, Wagner is not being looked at to take the closer role. Why people are focusing on this part of the trade is beyond me. Wagner is going to be the left specialist. He is not ready to assume a closer role and needs time to get his stuff together. What Wagner does is free up Okie to do what he does best, which is the 7th and 8th inning stopper role.

If Wagner can take some of Okie’s lefty v. lefty abs then Okie can do far more for the Red Sox than he currently is allowed. Francona has kept Okie in the pen more often than he probably would of liked to have him available v. tough lefty batters. With Wagner he would have a second option.

Why Paps and MDC are complaining is an enigma when Tek just got his time cut in half with the addition of VMart and he has taken the demotion like a team leader.

by SoxAcumen on Aug 23, 2009 11:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not to echo what MDC and Paps

said, because thier viewpoint is not so useful, but SA your first paragraph does sound like what we thought Gagne would do (aside from the lefty aspect)-and to me Wagner screems Gagne from the style to the injury…

The difference is that Wagner won’t cost in prospects like Gagne, but is expensive for the service. I don’t really care, but we should be honest and admit that it is sort of unrealistic to count on a guy that was sort of unreliable even before TJ surgery and that he has not pitched in a long while. I almost would prefer an internal option if we had one (although Bowden didn’t look like one Friday night). We don’t need a lefty specialist since both MDC and Oki are good against LHB.

by Buzzy on Aug 23, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then who is your 6th bullpen arm?

Penny? Gonzalez? Bowden?

Right now the Red Sox have Bard, Okie, MDC, Saito and Paps closing, with a handful of others in line to fill the 6th spot. Wagner will cost nothing but money and he is a veteran with playoff experience. This really seems like a no-brainer to me. The only person in the bullpen this affects is Okie and positively, IMO ill grant you.

Gagne v. Wagner were two completely different situations. Gagne was traded for bc the Red Sox had Okie and Paps as their only two reliable bullpen arms in 2007. Gagne was meant to be the 3rd option to help take the strain off of Okie and Paps. While there are similarities in Wagner and Gagne as players (injuries, former closers, cost), they will have much different roles in the bullpen.

If left v. right is not important, the bullpen hierarchy is something like this:

1) Okie
2) Bard
3) MDC
4) Saito
5) Wagner

All Wagner does is free up Okie to be the main guy to face tough ABs. Plus look at whom the Red Sox are going to be playing in the last month and playoffs. Many teams have very powerful lefty lineups like the Yankees and Phillies. As for need, I have to disagree. Why would the Red Sox waste Okie their best reliever or MDC one of their most experienced righty to face a left hand hitter when they could just pay for Wagner and keep their best two weapons for more important battles, like getting from the 7th to Paps? Penny is done and I do not want more than 1 rookie in the bullpen for the playoffs.

This is all much to do about nothing. Its just money, which the Red Sox have been throwing around with reckless abandonment this season. St. Louis has two of our players they got for dirt cheap and we are paying them over 10 million just to keep em on their roster.

by SoxAcumen on Aug 23, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ramirez?

We could carry 12 pitchers in the playoff rotation, I suppose…

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Aug 23, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

for a smart guy

you do have a it of trouble counting ;)-bard, oki, MDC, Paps, RamRam, Saito is 6. The proble for the Sox pen is not the number it is the type. And guess what-it is not L or R-is is length. They have no guys like Hughes or Aceves to give length. Wagner does not fit that bill, and he is exactly what has failed for us-the “once good injured flyer guy” (eg Smoltz, Penny…). I don’t think it is a big deal as you said it is just money for this year, but I have strong doubts about how reliable Wagner would be. He never was all that reliable BEFORE TJ surgery and a long layoff in the NL…

by Buzzy on Aug 23, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

B/c Wagner is going to take up a roster spot.

I’d rather not waste a playoff roster spot on a LOOGY, thanks.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 23, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They weren't dissing Wagner

Paps and MDC didn’t criticize Wagner specifically, just the idea of tinkering with the pen, which they think – as they did in 2007 – that “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!”

by ccthemovieman on Aug 23, 2009 12:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Sorry.

Comparing Wagner to Eric Gagne?

That’s a diss.

Man I love that tuna casserole.

by Bloggy on Aug 23, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gagne

in his prime may have een the nmost dominant closer in history for 1-2 years. Of course not when we got him. Wagner never was nearly at this level.

by Buzzy on Aug 23, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed all around.

Man I love that tuna casserole.

by Bloggy on Aug 24, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wagner...

…capable of striking guys out, probably won’t cost much in terms of prospects, could net a first rounder + sandwich pick, no requirement to pick up his option, won’t take up a roster spot after September, no need to place him on the post-season roster. Papelbon and MDC both get paid enough of money to STFU…

Yeah, there’s no problem with this…

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Aug 23, 2009 4:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That should be...

… won’t take up a meaningful roster spot after the September 1st roster expansion

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Aug 23, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

I guess-mostly fot the pick(s). I don’t expect Wagner will have much value, but I suppose if he does it is gravy. The problem is that he has to be signed by another team to get the picks, so if he blows, we suffer from his suckiness, pay him a crapload, and then get nothing.

by Buzzy on Aug 23, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very underrated.

Oddly, he was mentioned in the Sunday Comics today.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 23, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw that.

Man I love that tuna casserole.

by Bloggy on Aug 24, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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