Why is Tito leaving the bullpen in too long?
by lone1c on Jul 4, 2009 4:41 PM EDT
27 comments
Now that the bullpen has blown a third game this week, it bears asking: why is Terry Francona leaving in pitchers from the bullpen when they are clearly struggling?
In Tuesday's infamous game, Justin Masterson was left in after already having given up two runs, with more lefties due up in the order, and after having already pitched 2+ innings. There was no logical reason not to turn to another member of the bullpen at that point to finish off the inning. Beyond that, Manny Delcarmen gets pulled after one hit.
In last night's game, Ramon Ramirez was clearly struggling with his command, but was still left in the game and proceeded to give up a two run lead. (Had he thrown to third instead of first on the grounder to him, the game may have had a different outcome.)
Then, in today's game, Takashi Saito walks the bases loaded, and is still left in the game, even though Papelbon and Bard are both available.
I'm normally a big supporter of what Francona's done for the team, but this last week has just been completely mystifying. Handing away three games in this division is never a good idea. Can somebody help me understand what's going on here?
0 recs |
27 comments
Email
Print
Comments
This doesn't really answer the question, but
my Capitals had an issue with playing up/down to opponents’ levels last regular season. I know that baseball isn’t hockey, but maybe the Red Sox get more amped to play teams like the Yankees than the Mariners.
ZING! ZANG! ZUNG!
by crabchowdah on Jul 4, 2009 5:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You
are only asking this question because the bullpen, nearly across the board, has been shaky, thus magnifying what look like poor decisions. There have been some decisions I have questioned (eg could have gone with either masterson or Oki for 2 innings today), but they are not really blatantly stupid things. Masterson was absolutely crusing when the roof fell in in Baltimore. He Ked 4 of the first 6 he faced. He also had a 10-1 lead. Under these circumstances, no manager in the world would have serious activity in the pen. What you guys have to remember is that warming guys you will not need puts undue stress on your pitcher’s arms. Delcarmen is known in his career to be a short guy (will not be trusted with more than one inning of work). In his career, he is far worse in his 2nd inning of work. On the other hand, Oki is great in his 2nd inning of work. Thus, it made sense for Francona to pull MDC (who gave up a hit to let a run in) to get the matchup he wanted for one out and have him come back in the 8th. Plus Oki had been our best guy of late. That move makes sense, and at best it makes no difference (Oki ended the 7th).
As for RamRam who was not used in that game-he has been spotty of late. This has led to use in low leverage situations (where his #s have looked better but he has not pitced better). This is a guy everyone was creaming over, and now we say he is being left in too long.
Papelbon has been used in 4 straight games (!). I hardly think using him in a tie game for the second night in a row after using him in all of the Os games makes much sense. Bard is completely hit or miss. He is young and has poor control. One game he looks unhittable and the next he can’t find the plate. Maybe he could have used Bard instead of Saito, but who knows what you will get.
This is all monday morning quaterbacking. Thing about the process not the result. Decisions will look bad when you know you have had a bad result. Our pen has been wobbly for a month, let’s not act like there were obvious fixes for clearly bad decisions that have been made.
by Buzzy on Jul 4, 2009 5:47 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 4, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
These losses are frustrating, but ...
Aside from the Tuesday night disaster, I’m not sure all the blame rests with the pen. In last night’s game, MDC and Paps pitched well. RamRam didn’t. Tito put Ramirez in a spot where he should have been able to succeed: the bottom of Seattle’s line-up is overwhelmingly right-handed (only Langerhans hits from the left side).
Even though RamRam struggled and got the loss, the offense has to take the blame. Youk, Ortiz, and Bay—the 3,4,5 hitters—were 1 for 13 with 2 BB. Jakubauskas, a pitcher who has struggled this year, retired all 6 hitters he faced—Drew, Pedroia, Youk, Papi, Bay, and Kotsay. One run would have won the game.
As bad as Saito and RamRam were, the Sox will need them going forward. You can’t just bury guys and ride others. It’s July not October. I like Bard and think he will be a good pitcher. But the Sox have always brought young players along slowly. Once Saito got into trouble, he was on his own. Bard was only coming in if Saito blew up. Bard has 10 BB in 20 IP, so he isn’t really a control pitcher. Also, Tito is going to use Bard in situations where he is likely to succeed. Saito wasn’t effective, but he didn’t blow up, and Bard stayed in the pen.
Today, Tito may have extended Masterson. However, the top of the M’s order—Ichiro and Branyan, both lefties—were due up in the 8th, so Oki was used. That’s the right move. As bad as Saito was today, the Sox lost because they only managed 4 hits against Garrett Olson, Roy Corcoran, and David Aardsma (not exactly all-star pitchers).
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 4, 2009 5:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't arguing for burying guys in the 'pen
It’s just Tito’s self-proclaimed mantra about pitching has been “It’s better to pull the pitcher out one batter too early than one batter too late,” and it seems like lately, he hasn’t been following it.
by lone1c on Jul 4, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and Aardsma's been pretty good this year.
Olson and Corcoran—-not so much. But on the whole, Seattle’s pitching staff has been the stingiest in the AL.
It’s quite disheartening, overall, though: this year’s team is playing some of its worst baseball in a stretch where it’s facing some of its weakest overall opposition, and its five-game lead has been whittled down to just one game.
by lone1c on Jul 4, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Until
this series the Sox had not lost a series since Texas. They won (off the top of my head-correct me if I am wrong) NYY, PHIL, FLA, WASH, ATL, BTL-6 series in a row. Like all teams, the Sox always have stretches that are disapointing and puzzling. The offense has been as big a problem as the pen. Jason Bay looks completely lost at the plate. Dusty and Youk are spotty, and no one is killing the ball. But we have won 6/7 series. The Yanks and the Rays are playing well right now, but we always know this was going to be a tight race, right?
by Buzzy on Jul 4, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the problem.
We’re winning games we shouldn’t be winning, and it’s going to start turning the other way soon if they don’t fix it.
OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 6, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paps needed the day off
Think about it — he pitched on the 24th, 26th, 27th, 29th, 30th, 1st, and again last night. That’s seven times in ten days. Sure, he probably would have done better than Saito in the ninth inning, but it would be stupid to have his arm fall off because you want to keep the score tied in any one game.
by RSNexile on Jul 4, 2009 10:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This thread should be titled "Why is Tito not Joe Torre?"
We can complain about Francona’s slow hook, but over the course of a long season, it seems to work out fairly well. By squeezing pitchers for extra outs, Tito reduces strain on the bullpen. He’s also fairly conscientious about not overworking anyone. There are flaws with this strategy, but the alternative – going to the pen or switching relievers at the first sign of danger – is also risky. By having a fast hook, you may overwork and exhaust your bullpen, to the point that they are injured or weak come October (or crash in the stretch run and keep your team out of the playoffs altogether).
Tito’s continued presence in the organization, without any sign of conflict with Baseball Operations staff or the GM, suggests to me that Theo and company are fine with Tito’s management. That’s good enough for me.
Honestly, I’m surprised that anyone is shocked by this any more. Tito’s been with the organization for years, and his style hasn’t changed perceptibly. The anger is understandable, but what we need to realize is that Tito’s management ordinarily works out well (see 2009 league-leading record, 2 World Series titles).
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
by 0157H7 on Jul 4, 2009 11:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Do you remember that playoff when the manager left Martinez in too long?
I forget the year, but the outrage likely cost the guy his job. So Tito may want to play this slow hook game carefully.
by NG on Jul 5, 2009 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS against the MFY (the Aaron Boone game)
And that’s all I’ll say because I don’t want to be mean about it.
ZING! ZANG! ZUNG!
by crabchowdah on Jul 5, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's OK, NG's been receiving some criticism for other stuff recently too.
OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 6, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your point?
Grady Little wasn’t fired for one stupid decision. He made far too many to count. He didn’t work well with the FO. Grady managed by instinct and refused to use the scouting reports provided by the FO. He was an awful manager (he was better than Jimy, though).
Terry Francona isn’t Grady Little.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 5, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
As a manager, your situation is always fluid.
Make wise calls because scapegoat or not, when bad, UNEXPECTED things happen, some decision makers will be called upon to pay.
by NG on Jul 5, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lucky for us
the people who make decisions in the FO know the difference between process and post-facto examination.
by Buzzy on Jul 5, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a place for post-facto exams before an otherwise inevitable bad ending.
In other words, if you see that your tire is going flat after a trip, it might be good to fix it before the next trip or bad bad things may happen. I am not sure you can do this at the last minute in the playoffs, but during the first half of the year, do not hide from post-facto exam of reality so far!
Now you and I might see reality different at this juncture of the season, but the next week or two will show us real post-facto indicators fconcerning this current team. Are we prepared to act if this post-facto analysis shows real weaknesses??
by NG on Jul 5, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You simply don't understand
what you are talking about, and your example of Grady show it. Grady made a completely illogical decision (and as Drugs points out-it was not the only one). He ignored the data showing that Pedro was poor after 100 pitches, he ignored the fact that his pen was fantastic in the playoffs and was rested, and he tried to cover his ass because he was criticised earlier in the season (by people like you) for pulling Pedro “too early.” Tito, on the other hand, has largely played it right. In baseball, sometimes you lose to teams you are better than, even when you play the odds right.
by Buzzy on Jul 5, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you also should go back and find out WTF put the hole in your tire, to continue the metaphor.
OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 6, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which goes to show that your Grady Little example doesn't work
Everyone knew that Pedro was done. Why? Because he’d already thrown 100 pitches and his history showed that he fell apart after 100 pitches. But Grady Little didn’t know that because he made a habit of ignoring data. That made leaving Pedro in too long not merely a bad decision that cost us the pennant, but rather part of a larger pattern of bad decisions that showed he wasn’t qualified to be a manager.
The Sox came a game away from the Series despite Little’s lousy managing, not because of it, and that is why he was fired. And it’s why the Sox front office trusts Francona — because they understand that every team is going to have the kind of unlucky stretch we’re having now over the course of a 162 game season, and that the overall record over the course of those 162 games is far more important than the outcome of a single game.
Stop panicking, Chicken Little. The sky isn’t falling.
by RSNexile on Jul 5, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and really
OMG! Grady leaving in Pedro was the single worst managerial decision I have ever seen. I do not engage in hyperbole here. Of the 300 million people in the USA, 299,999,999 knew that Pedro was done for the day. He was notorious in 2003 for not having gas past the 6th inning and he had barely gotten through that 6th against the Yankees. And Grady’s reason for leaving him in…he thought Pedro was a “competitor”.
by RickD on Jul 5, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was screaming at my television set
This wasn’t like Wakefield’s start after the 12-inning disaster with Matsuzaka earlier this year. There was a bullpen ready to close out the last two innings at that point.
Grady’s incompetence that day is at least part of the reason why Wakefield didn’t get the Buckner treatment—-he probably wouldn’t have been in that situation in the first place if Little had done his job properly.
by lone1c on Jul 6, 2009 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think we were up to 300 mil yet in 2003...
But I get your point, even with the unintended hyperbole.
OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 6, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are struggling do not panic
Saito pitched regularly as a closer in LA. He then had surgery – his use is unpredictable this year so I think he needs to find a groove – Tito is fine the Sox need more offense you just cannot win every game. I am concerned about 3rd base and Mike Lowell more than anything else – the hole is huge when he is not in the lineup
by Dave D on Jul 5, 2009 10:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I guess I'm a little "old-school" in my paranoia
It’s hard not to panic during a short-term panic, especially in a division where four teams are still potentially in the running for the WC.
Thanks everybody for talking me down from the proverbial ledge.
by lone1c on Jul 5, 2009 5:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
JUMP!!!
OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 6, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Over the Monster
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
