Will Theo Make a Move?
As today's 4pm trade deadline approaches, the question on everyone's lips is this: will Theo do it? Will he pull of the trade of the decade, and grab us Adrian Gonzalez or Roy Halladay? OTM is covering it all.
The conventional wisdom among sports writers seems to be that Theo will / has to pull off a big trade. And many of us are excited about that possibility.
Unfortunately, the odds of a huge trade are very slim. You need to understand his history to get why:
Let's look at the major midseason trades Theo has done in his tenure here. Read on for more.
Mike Gonzalez, Freddy Sanchez and $$ for Brandon Lyon, Jeff Suppan and Anastazio Martinez (2003): Theo's first trade deadline exchange sent two prospects to Pittsburgh for reliever Lyon and starter Suppan. Suppan was a good back-end starter who Theo wanted to steady the rotation. Sanchez went on to win a batting title.
Nomar Garciaparra for Orlando Cabrera, Doug Mientkiewicz (2004): This trade worked on several levels. First, the unhappy Nomah, by that point a problem in the clubhouse, was removed. Second, the new guys significantly improved the Red Sox defense. OCab also hit well for Boston, but that was a side benefit rather than the goal of the deal.
Kason Gabbard, David Murphy, and Engel Beltre for Eric Gagne (2007): Ah Gagne. Expectations were high when he came in, but his role was that of set-up man / backup closer. He would help spell Okajima and Papelbon, keeping both rested for the postseason. For that luxury, we traded a decent 5th starter, a serviceable outfielder, and a young prospect with a high ceiling. None of these players were essential to the Sox long-term plans.
Manny Ramirez, Craig Hansen, and Brandon Moss for Jason Bay:(2008): Like the Nomar trade, in the Manny trade Theo changed the clubhouse dynamics by removing a source of tension. Two young players had to go out with Manny to sweeten the pot, but they got an extra year with Bay.
Of these, the only trade that screams blockbuster to me is the Nomar trade. Manny for Bay is almost a wash - sure they're big names, but they're also almost identical. Both are right-handed sluggers who play poor defense. The trade didn't really add anything to the team, at least on paper. The extra year of Bay and the absence of Manny in the clubhouse may have been benefits that motivated the trade. Gagne was not coming in to a big role, so I wouldn't call it a huge trade.
What is the take-away? Theo Epstein is reluctant to make big deals at the trading deadline. Most of his moves are minor. His goal is to shore up an area of weakness, such as defense (Nomar), bullpen depth (Gagne) or rotation depth (Suppan).
At the trade deadline, Epstein has NOT traded prospects for a superstar slugger, or an ace pitcher. There's a first time for everything, but all the talk of blockbusters strikes me as a misreading of his philosophy. Theo and co. talk about a $100 million player development machine, and that's the best way to think of the Sox. Boston develops prospects into players and supplements them with free agents and waiver / trade pickups. He doesn't make big moves just because, and especially not at the deadline.
Given this interpretation, let's consider the names discussed.
Victor Martinez: Hitting well, poor defensively. VMart has been connected repeatedly to the Sox. But where does he fit? Catcher is occupied, and first base is a bigger logjam with LaRoche. The only way I see this going down is if Varitek is traded. Putting Martinez at first isn't a big improvement over Youk / LaRoche, and putting him at catcher could be a defensive liability. Although Tek isn't lighting the world afire with his defense, he also knows the staff and they like him, which can't be dismissed (Theo did resign Tek, after all).
Roy Halladay: The Sox, despite their atrocious defense, have allowed the fewest runs in the AL. Beckett and Lester make a strong front rotation for October, and between Buchholz, Smoltz and Penny someone should be a fine #3. Halladay would be a very expensive luxury, both in terms of prospects and money. Also, none of Theo's major trades have been intra-divisional.
Adrian Gonzalez: This seems the most likely of the proposed trades, if only because AGon is a player in the Red Sox mold: young (27), cost-controlled, OBP-oriented, and plays great defense. Much like Jason Bay, he's a contender for Iron Man awards, playing in every game the past two years and 161 games in 2007. Acquiring AGon would also be a major improvement, as Youk moves to third, Lowell and his bad defense gets traded, and the Sox gain substantially in both OBP and defense. Unfortunately, AGon would probably require both a boatload of talent and another trading partner, which makes the whole thing complicated and the likelihood of a deal very slim.
If Theo makes a move at all, it'll almost certainly be a minor, lateral move. Don't expect the jewels of the farm to leave Boston, and don't expect a superstar to come in.
130 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Unless someone like Shapiro has a brain fart.
/hindsight
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
We will see
a nice move but nothing huge. Blue Jays are asking why to much for Halladay. The Indians are in disarray but I don’t see them moving Victor even though they should. I voted for the last one because it was funny not because Theo would be that dumb.
Baseball is God's sport! All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident. kinesiologist
Baseball’s biggest busts Andy Marte
i become more and more opposed
it will cost us Buch (and more obv) and we have no replacement right now, he might be our 3rd starter going forward. I think a team with Agonz but a rotation of Beckett, Lester, Wake, Penny and Smoltz might be worse than the team we have now
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 31, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is why I'd rather wait till the offseason. But I do want AGon.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
No Victor Martinez.
Who already has a catcher who can’t throw out more than 15%? Oh yeah, we do.
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
According to Jon Heyman
Pads want Lars and Westmoreland.
Sox offer Buchholz, Lowrie and Masterson
I would do that second deal. Definitely
Compromise:
Buchholz, Lars, Masterson
No Westy TYVM
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh.
If you really want A-Gon without Westmoreland or Kelly as a PTBNL, I think you’d have to be open to that possibility.
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
We loose our 3rd starter and our best SS
dont like that deal at all, we atleast have to get another SS ofc.
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 31, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
So did a bunch of other teams.
Mariners response was predictably “Pry him from our cold, dead hands.”
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
The Sox inquire on everyone
Theo does his homework.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. I imagine it went like this...
Theo: Hey, Jeff. It’s Theo. How you doing?
Jeff: Great man, just great. What can I do for you?
Theo: Oh, nothing much. Say, could you look in the mirror for me?
Jeff: …um, okay.
Theo: See anything that could be a lobotomy scar?
Jeff: Nope, nothing like that.
Theo: Okay, well, just thought I’d check. Talk to you later.
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
by Allen Chace on Jul 31, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Who's Jeff???
Did you mean Jack?
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Stephen Schmidt on Jul 31, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Funny though
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Stephen Schmidt on Jul 31, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Bill Bavasi says "for Mike Lowell and Jason Varitek: proven winners!"
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
Now OC has been on 4 teams since 2004
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I love the thing on MLBTR
That an executive believes the Red Sox prefer Adrian Gonzalez to Victor Martinez.
What a g.d. revelation. :)
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
Much like one would prefer Roy Halladay to say, AJ Burnett.
Or Hanley Ramirez to JJ Hardy
Or Chase Utley to Dan Uggla.
Really? You bothered to quote an unnamed executive for that?
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
That's why these unnamed executives get paid the big bucks
because they aren’t afraid to speak their minds, anonymously, and show off their wisdom.
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
They should be getting a lot of money just
for going all this time without a name.
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
yeah but who is the check made out to?
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
by MassGal on Jul 31, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We Need a SHORTSTOP!!!
I’d love to have Agon fer sure but we need a SS more than anything right now!! Is the biggest and most glaring hole in the overall picture for Boston right now. Green is GREEN!! Man…..
He is pretty keen on recycling, that Green.
Also got the Sox to change to those energy-efficient lightbulbs.
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
Oh, man, we should look into that kid, Lowrie.
I hear he’s a doubles machine, an above league average batter at an offensively starved position and he plays solid defense. AND he was injured last year and at the beginning of this year, so we should be able to get him for nothing!!!
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
MLB trade rumors
states Sox about to acquire VMart…I am stunned ;(.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From MLBTraderumors:
USA Today’s Bob Nightengale via Twitter: the Red Sox are about to acquire Victor Martinez from the Indians.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
Nothing yet
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
It better cost us nothing but Bowden and that's it
I like V-Mart, but the upgrade between LaRoche and V-Mart isn’t that much.
by South Coast Ghost on Jul 31, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
hope it is wrong
cant see why trading for an 850 OPS bad defending guy soon to be on the other side of 30 makes ANY sense…
FUCK
I swear to God if this cost us Buchholz I’m going to go crazy.
by Gnick on Jul 31, 2009 2:05 PM EDT reply actions
i really hope this isn't true.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
Ed Price of AOL Fanhouse, trying to confirm, says it "looks good."
-MLBTR
Wow, Theo, what a fucking panic move. Unless we get one of their catching prospects or give up next-to-nothing, this is a joke trade.
I'm hoping this is premature.
Noone else is reporting it yet anyway.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
3 sources
are saying-but I hope it is like the Bay to Rays last year. Please, Nooooooooooooooooooooooo.
You never know
There are always false reports.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
just Martinez for Buch??
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
I was asking
because I’d think the Sox would get more
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
I hope not
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Just a thought
Assuming the Sox get VMart, Theo might not be done. Supposedly the price for Gonzalez was “three times the price for Halladay,” according to one writer. Maybe the Sox are looking at VMart and Halladay.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
hmmm
2:17 p.m.: According to the FoxSports report, the Martinez deal is straight-up between the Red Sox and Indians with no third team is involved. The report also notes that the deal will “almost certainly end” the Red Sox’s pursuit of Gonzalez, who is likely to remain in San Diego.
If we do aquire Vmart do you think it's possible,
We are simply picking him up, than shipping him out as part of a bigger deal?
IE: Pick up Vmart, and include him in a package for Adrian Gonzalez or Halladay?
Would need to be a 3rd team involved.
Some sort of NL contender. Neither the Jays nor Pads will be interested in VMart.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh well wishful thinking,
I’m really not a fan of a Vmart deal in which we give up anything meaningful.
This is good news, at least
From FOXSports:
The Indians’ exact return is not known, but the Red Sox did not include either right-hander Clay Buchholz nor right-hander Daniel Bard in the deal, according to a source.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
But from Will Carroll:
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
More could mean it's not just VMart straight up.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
What I don't understand is,
If Wake/Dice down if we traded Buch + More for Vmart, what do we do about a 5th starter?
Now for Kelly, Westmoreland, and Reddick.
After that…I guess I’d be willing to accept it.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Jonathan Mayo from mlb.com
Hearing Hagadone is a big part of the package for V-mart
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 31, 2009 2:30 PM EDT reply actions
Maybe it will be for much less than we think.
Indians under pressure to cut payroll maybe?
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
It's going to be interesting to see how Vmart is used.
Do we DH him, does he play 1st with Youk at 3rd, Lowell on the bench?
or
Does he watch everyday, Tek starts catching Wake, Kot is released?
Mayo says Hagadone AND Masterson?
WTF
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
FIne with me
I didn’t really see Masterson as a very valuable player and Hagadone is a huge question mark.
by Gnick on Jul 31, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
If that's all it is, I'll deal.
But the way people are writing about it, there’s another name, which would piss me off.
Gonna need a LR type. Bowden to the ML?
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know
That seems like a lot to give up for a guy who isn’t THAT much better than LaRoche, who will have to be moved now.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
How does VMart look as far as Elias rankings are concerned?
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh wow, VMart is currently type A.
Stop the presses. I’m liking this.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
interesting
there is only an option for next year or he is signed? you think the sox let him walk?
Actually, does anyone know?
Can a team buyout a player and then offer them arb? I’d assume not.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Caveat: Just on the cusp.
But he’s got plenty of room before he falls below type-B. Getting to redo the Hagadone pick post TJS might be good.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
yes
VMart career OPS+118
LaRoche 113
VMart=30
LaRoche=29
Tell me why?? And if we want Vmart to catch-who catches Wake?
The answer to your Wakefield question:
The backstop.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I've always loved that answer
How do you catch a knuckleball?
Go to the backstop and pick it up.
Introducing the new 2008 Big 12 Football Champions: OU, UT*, TT*, and MU*!
Now Introducing the new 2009 Big 12 Baseball Tournament Champions: UT, KSU*, BU*, and MU*!
Brandon Inge
Basically answered that way when asked about potentially catching Wake in the ASG.
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
Yes
Although that’s been said many times by many people who can’t catch one. Add me to the list. I can throw a crappy knuckler, but I sure as hell don’t want to catch one.
Introducing the new 2008 Big 12 Football Champions: OU, UT*, TT*, and MU*!
Now Introducing the new 2009 Big 12 Baseball Tournament Champions: UT, KSU*, BU*, and MU*!
What's his OPS as a first baseman, though?
If we’re looking for an upgrade to Kottaras and LaRoche individually, we may have that in VMart.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we’ll carry Vic, Kottaras and Tek
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
Really?
Seems to me like that’d be a bit crazy when we need a 5th OF.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
If they want to play Vic at DH, then they need another catcher.
And are they really going to ask Tek to catch Wake? or the aging and poor fielding new guy?
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
They're going to ask Martinez to catch about every 5th game.
It’s not a big deal. Kott wasn’t doing a great job there anyways.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
That would be nice.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
as GRSF said
Sox to acquire Martinez; report says Masterson, Hagadone dealt-according to globe.
Mayo also says the two clubs are looking at additional names to add for Cleveland.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Any chance it gets expanded to include Asdrubal Cabrera? ...pipe dreams.
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
Well then count me as confused.
If Hagadone and Masterson aren’t enough for V-Mart, then let’s pull this car over right now.
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
Could be very minor names.
Either organizational depth, or a guy like Tejeda, Gibson, etc.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm hearing PTBNL
which implies a recently signed guy.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
Comment to be made later.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
GM guy on MLB network said,
He heard Tazawa is possibly part of the Vmart deal.
Wow.
If so, can we say panic move?
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
3 good young pitchers for a 30-year old C/1B/DH
Cleveland would have to throw something else in.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah.
I really doubt Tazawa is in.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
I agree, I think it's just a name throw out there.
To me Tazawa would be a bigger haul than Masterson or Nick Hagadone.
From FOX
Even with Indians catcher Victor Martinez headed to the Red Sox, there is still a possibility that the Padres will trade first baseman Adrian Gonzalez.
The Dodgers are making runs at both Gonzalez and Padres closer Heath Bell, either separately or in a blockbuster, according to major-league sources.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
really?
inter divison, inter-state? hard to believe…
This
A-Gon is gonna be with whatever team gets him for a while if you ask me.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Who's the Dodger's 1B?
Introducing the new 2008 Big 12 Football Champions: OU, UT*, TT*, and MU*!
Now Introducing the new 2009 Big 12 Baseball Tournament Champions: UT, KSU*, BU*, and MU*!
The Padres
Should take full advantage of the fact that the Dodgers’ bigwigs do not like Matt Kemp.
…maybe we should be taking full advantage of the fact that the Dodgers’ bigwigs do not like Matt Kemp.
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
We should've traded Paps for him.
Would’ve been a great deal.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Whoa.
Meant to be a reply to Mystman
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
Braves Interested In Adam LaRoche
First baseman Adam LaRoche becomes expendable for Boston if they complete the Victor Martinez trade; Jon Heyman of SI tells us via Twitter that the Braves are interested.bq.
Via: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/07/braves-interested-in-adam-laroche.html
They traded him to Pittsburgh for Mike Gonzalez.
We could just do that exact trade.
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"

by 

























