Trade Deadline Open Thread
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 9:34 AM EDT
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PrintBy the time the Red Sox next come to bat--tomorrow against the Orioles--the trade deadline will have come and gone. In an attempt to keep conversation hopefully concentrated and less cluttered, post all trade talk here.
Current Sox-related rumors, per MLBTR:
One way or another, pitcher Roy Halladay can get some peace of mind about six hours from now when the trade deadline passes. Until then, it's rumor-mania. Yesterday night, things seemed to heat up with the Rangers, but Blue Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi labeled trade talks "dead" in a general sense. Earlier in the day the Red Sox and Dodgers were considered the frontrunners.
4:23pm: Jack Curry of the New York Times has additional comments from Ricciardi on Halladay:
"We've got nothing going on. We expect him to be with us."
1:14pm: Yahoo's Tim Brown sees the Dodgers and Red Sox as the frontrunners for Doc in what is shaping up as a two-team race. Brown says the only Major Leaguer in the Dodgers' offer is James McDonald, while the Sox will part with Clay Buchholz, one of Justin Masterson, Michael Bowden, and Lars Anderson, and some lesser prospects.]
1:35pm: MLB.com's Jonathan Mayo says (via Twitter) pitchers Nick Hagadone and Justin Masterson are in the deal (ESPN's Peter Gammons agrees). Gut reaction: nice haul. Mayo also says the two clubs are looking at additional names to add for Cleveland.
USA Today's Bob Nightengale via Twitter: the Red Sox are about to acquire first baseman/catcher Victor Martinez from the Indians. Ed Price of AOL Fanhouse, trying to confirm, says it "looks good." FOX Sports agrees.
7:44am: Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports describe the Indians as "pessimistic" about their chances of trading Martinez.
6:36am: Yesterday ESPN's Jayson Stark brought up Victor Martinez as part of a possible three-way trade involving the Red Sox, Indians, and another club. Let's see what's cooking today...
Sean McAdam of the Boston Herald says the Red Sox already rejected a "one-for-one proposal that would have sent Clay Buchholz to Cleveland for Martinez."
Orlando Cabrera
9:30am: Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle has a few hot stove notes on the A's this morning.
- Slusser debunks a Providence Journal report from Daniel Barbarisi that the Red Sox turned down a trade for Orlando Cabrera. Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe agrees with Slusser, saying Cabrera "is not keen on returning to Boston."
12:04pm: SI's Jon Heyman hears the Red Sox are still in talks for Gonzalez. Buchholz, Lowrie, and Masterson are "in the mix" with the Padres asking for Westmoreland and Anderson. Heyman adds, "However, the sides are still pretty far apart, and Boston is still in the mix for Martinez."
12:51am: We heard yesterday that the Padres and Red Sox spoke at length Wednesday night about a possible Adrian Gonzalez trade. However, there was no indication the talks had developed by the end of the day. Not only are the Red Sox discussing a three-way deal with the Indians and another club, they're involved on the Gonzalez front as well. Here's the latest:
- Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe reports that there are indications the talks were active late last night and will likely peak today.
- It would be surprising if this were not the case, but Kevin Towers is asking for "a ton" in return for Gonzalez, according to Cafardo's source.
- A rival executive told Jon Heyman of SI.com he believes the Red Sox prefer Gonzalez to Victor Martinez
11:19pm: Olney reports that the Padres and Red Sox had made very little progress in their discussions about Adrian Gonzalez as of 9pm CST.
11:58am: All kinds of good stuff from ESPN's Buster Olney (Insider required and recommended).
- The big news: the Red Sox and Padres talked "at length" about an Adrian Gonzalez trade Wednesday night. Those discussions are expected to resume today; of course you can expect top prospects to be involved.
The teams are discussing Clay Buchholz, Lars Anderson, Jed Lowrie, Ryan Westmoreland, Justin Masterson and others.
Adam LaRoche
First baseman Adam LaRoche becomes expendable for Boston if they complete the Victor Martinez trade;Jon Heyman of SI tells us via Twitter that the Braves are interested.
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For the record, my take:
Roy Halladay: Not at the price it’s almost certainly going to be at.
Victor Martinez: Not at all.
Adrian Gonzalez: Unless it’s unreasonable, pull the trigger. I’d give up plenty for AGon.
It looks like Washburn and Halladay won't be moved
Seattle just picked up a player, Jack Wilson. Why would they do that if they’re going to dump Washburn? Also, I heard the M’s are asking a lot for Washburn, meaning they won’t move him unless they’re bowled over.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 30, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
while the Sox will part with Clay Buchholz, one of Justin Masterson, Michael Bowden, and Lars Anderson, and some lesser prospects.]
for that price I’m totally onboard
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 30, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
So you'd give up Buch, Lars, and "lesser prospects" for 1.5 expensive years of Halladay?
Side note – by “lesser prospects,” is it meant to be lower level prospects (Kelly, Manifest, etc.) or lower ceiling/ability prospects?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Lesser means lower ceiling
Lesser means like lower on the list of top prospects.
P.S. According to soxprospects.com, Westmoreland can’t even be traded until August meaning next year. So despite the all knowingness of Gordon Edes rumors, Manifest is not a possible chip.
Kelly is offlimits thats what the sox always said he was the number 1 prospect in a couple midseason ranking
a deal of Buch, Masterson + lower prospects seams very good indeed (i prefer to keep lars over bowden and masterson)
You guys always make the argument of Halladay being expensive while he has outperformed his contract by a bigger total amount than Agonz in the past and he wouldn’t create a 12M bench player for 1,5 years. This year both will be outperforming their contract by the same aprox. 12M margin same for next year. While the cost for Agonz would be definitely higher. All I’m saying both deals would be not that far apart with a pitcher having a much bigger impact in the playoffs.
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 30, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe
but remember that AGonz is entering his prime while Halladay is past his (historical) prime. That is a big difference. It could also be argued that a position player bat is a greater need.
This.
Halladay would force us to spend a lot more to keep Beckett and Bay (or get another OF, whatever).
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
why would Halladay force us to spend more to keep Beckett?
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 30, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I meant our budget would go up.
Because some of the money we intended to use on him would be used on Halladay.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
next year both deals are finacially pretty mush a wash
cause lowell would be a 12M benchplayer. Just WAR increasement the Halladay Deal would be way better if you only would compare the next 1,5 years. I see no reason to believe that Agonz becoming even better than he is now. I think he allready peaked. WAR of the last years: 3.9; 3.3; 3.4; 3.5 (sofar this year) so i think its safe to assume that he is that kinda player he might reach 4.2 or so for a year but its safe to assume he will be around that margin. If you wanna extend Agonz contract over 2011 you prolly have to pay him something like 15-17M per year, that what a 3.5-4 WAR player is worth. If you wanna extend Halladay after 2010 you have to pay him somewhere around 20M per year i think. Even if he goes down from being a 6 WAR player to a 5 WAR player he still is outperforming his contract slightly. So after 2011 its fair to assume both will be worth somewhat their salary. Now the only difference in both deals is that you get Agonz cheap for 1 more year but that will cost you atleast 1 more elite prospect, so it prolly ends up a wash again.
So it comes back to the point that Halladay is worth significantly more in the Playoffs than Agonz.
My perfect scenario would be: I’m giving up Buch+Masterson/Bowden+lower ceiling prospects. I can keep Lars, who will be our starting 1B 2011. Lowells 12M come of the books, Youk moves to 3rd and i still have enough money to resign Halladay and Beckett.
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 30, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Except AGon's never had consistent protection.
And his swing is great for Fenway – lots of oppo-power. I’d rather trade for him and have him the starting 1B for the next 2 seasons with Lars at DH. I think the cost comes down in the offseason when we aren’t losing leverage by being desperate to find the little extra push into the Series.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
i agree with you that trading for Agonz would be better in the offseason rather than now
what kinda package would you think it takes to get Agonz then?
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 30, 2009 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
looks like red sox turned down OC for Carter/Cabrera
which seem like AAA filler, non prospects
Rumor Mill: Sox pass on season two of the OC? 07.30.09 at 11:10 am ET
By DJ Bean
Conflicting reports this morning in regard to the Red Sox potentially bringing back shortstop Orlando Cabrera. Dan Barbarisi of the Providence Journal has the Sox turning down an offer Tuesday of Cabrera for Chris Carter and Fernando Cabrera, while Susan Slusser of the San Fransisco Chronicle refutes the notion, citing an Oakland representative.
http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/r ed-sox/2009/07/30/rumor-mill-sox-pass-on-season-tw o-of-the-oc/
A’s basically wanted AAA filler, non prospects…maybe to help the AAA rivercats championsip…didnt seem like a steep price to me
Fernando Cabrera
Chris Carter
The Sox don't want OC
He isn’t very good. Jed Lowrie is better.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 30, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
He's good.
That’s what Keith Foulke’s wife said…
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 30, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Adrian Gonzalez
If God willing we could get Gonzalez, how would the already crowed 1B situation shake out? Conventional wisdom has Lowell going out but age and $ prevent that it would seem, Would the Sox send out newly acquired LaRoche, certainly he is no good for the thrifty Padres?
AGon wouldn't be a salary dump.
So it’d probably be fairly even money wise, AGon for LaRoche. They would pass on LaRoche’s option, letting him walk in 2010. Money wouldn’t be a huge issue.
I think we’d see a lot of split time between Lowell and Ortiz, generally speaking, with the occasional day off for Youk and Gonzalez.
But Gonzalez is the one deal we’d make that’s have a long-lasting impact on the Sox. He could be that big bat we need on the team.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 30, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Note: Of course I don't mean we're trading LaRoche for AGon,
Just that he’d likely be included as a way to relieve the backup and give the Padres someone to stick at first for a year. Obviously prospects would be the big part of it.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 30, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
I’m still really against trading prospects for pitching but I think we’re going to need a bat soon with a couple guys on the way out. It seems that Lars isn’t coming around as well as we would have liked. If we can get AGonz for something that isn’t too outrageous then I think we should do it.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Marco Scutaro
Besides all the Big trades being discussed. I just want to throw in his name.
I’m not convinced that Lowrie will be the savior for our SS struggles and i think that Nick Green will regress back to career averages.
Lets just compare the 3:
Scutaro: .362 wOBA , ZiPS(update): .355; UZR/150:8.1; WAR 4.0
Green: .300 wOBA; ZiPS(update): .301; UZR/150:10.8; WAR 0.9
Lowrie: .176 wOBA; ZiPS(update): 283; UZR/150: 7.2; WAR -0.3
Ofc the Data for Lowrie is a very small sample so its fairer to post his last year number:
Lowrie 2008: .326 wOBA, UZR/150: 24.6
So Lowrie tends to be the clear best fielder of the 3, but I’m not convinced that his bat will come alive to his last years stats and the way Nick Green is playing the last few weeks he proves that he is not more than an utility infielder. Marco Scutaro tends to have the best bat by far, is a free agent next year so the cost of getting him should not be that high. I really think he could be a decent upgrade for small cost.
What do you guys think? Bad idea?
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 30, 2009 7:10 PM EDT reply actions
Scutaro
is a good player-a Sox type player and has flown below the radar for much of his career. However, I think the Sox stick with Lowrie. He is young and had good numbers both in the minors and last year (with both the bat and glove). I don’t think it is a stretch to think he can be at least a Scutaro level player, and is much younger. In fact, Lowrie’s OPS last year was superior to any year Scutaro has ever had except this year (which has been a great one for Scutaro). I don’t think it quite fair to post Lowrie’s numbers this year given the injury and limited sample.
thats why i also posted his last years numbers
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 30, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
yes
but his last year numbers are basically Scutaro’s career #s and he is 25, not 33.
And he was injured last year too.
For a LONG period of time.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
I'm not saying Scutaro is the future
but we all agree Nick Green ain’t gonna cut it and if Lowrie doesn’t get hot anymore this year we have a very decent SS in Scutaro who wouldn’t cost much.
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 30, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
he should
surpass last year’s #s eventually-as his minor’s number are a good predictor of a possible 800OPS guy. I think this team needs the youth, and they are high on Lowrie-so my guess is unless seriously hurt, it is Jed.
For one, you can't really look at Lowrie's MLB numbers as anything but minimums.
He had a broken wrist last year, which really affected his LHB, which was the majority of them (facing RHP). His bat will be a good tool – I see him as a 40 doubles per year kinda guy. I’d rather wait for him to come back fully from the injuries, which means adjusting to MLB stuff again.
Small note, German – best to look at as much data as possible for UZR – 3 years should be good enough.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
what is our greater need?
pitching or hitting? i would love adrian, but we do not need him. we have got the bats, youk and bay are just asleep right now. we all know lowell, ortiz, pedroia, youk, bay ,ells, can rake. even drew and tek can. don’t forget about laroche either. the hitting is there, i believe that. the worrisome point for me has been the rotation. i think that is where our greatest need is. but i am not willing to give up one piece of our current rotation in buchholz to make a deal, which is of course what it would take for halladay. it would make us better no doubt, but it would not help our depth. buck has been good since the call up, he should the number three or four for the rest of the year. we should have gotten Lee, we have the farm and it wouldn’t have taken Buck. and i guess my other choice washburn isnt available. basically, GET A STARTER, AND IF YOU CAN, A SERVICEABLE HITTER. GET ADRIAN IN DECEMBER.
Our rotation's been great:
47.1 pRAA, and that includes Dice-K’s stuff. Our rotation going into September should be Beck, Lester, Wake, Penny, Buch. We’d also have spot starters in Smoltz, Masterson, Bowden, etc.
AGon would improve our offense, our defense, and our health. If we got him, here’s how the depth chart would look, IMO:
3B – Youk (75%), Lowell (20%), Lowrie (5%)
1B – AGon (90%), Youk (10%)
DH – Papi (75%), Lowell (25%)
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Yes, yes it does.
Youk gets rest, AGon gets rest (would actually probably DH some, stealing a little time from Papi and Lowell, Lowell gets a LOT of rest to keep him fresh, Papi gets his days off to keep his knees fresh or shoot up or whatever, and Lowrie gets to try out 3B to see if he could play there when Casey Kelly comes up as a two-way player. :)
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Doesn't sound good
Wake, Penny or Buch pitching a playoff game……or Halladay? It’s a no-brainer.
A trio of Beckett, Lester and Doc give us the best chance at winning another ring, which is all that matters.
by ccthemovieman on Jul 30, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Wake won't be a starter in the playoffs ever again.
The knuckleball’s too fickle – he’d be a long reliever used to mop up innings in those games where it’s not worth using the pen b/c it’s out of reach. Penny is a fastball pounder – as long as he’s locating, I’d trust him to put up a QS in the playoffs. Buch will be MUCH better by the time the playoff roster is even started to be considered, and I’d expect the same out of him as I do out of Penny.
Halladay’s never pitched in the playoffs and has never pitched in a pennant race. And why do you think a ring this year is more important than multiple rings in the next decade?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
All of that is conjecture
Buchholz is still unproven and a guy with a pretty poor record. Hopefully, he will be a star but we don’t know that. I can’t see Penny beating the Yankees come October, either, but I know Halladay can because he’s done it multiple times. You can’t always just sit around and do nothing and HOPE that your young players will be big winners someday. The loss of Buch will not mortgage the future. Halladay can give us a great 1-2-3 punch for the next several years.
by ccthemovieman on Jul 31, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
But here's the thing:
Buchholz does not have to be a start to make him extremely valuable. In a vacuum, of course you would give up Halladay for Buch, but having players that can are good and make no money creates a lot of payroll flexibility. If we have Halladay on this team we will have a much better chance of winning this year, but next year and the year after we will have a rotation of $10M guys, and that might not be sustainable.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
Ooh, W-L record.
When has Halladay pitched against the MFY in October? Penny has in the 2003 World Series, which is still pointless b/c it’s a completely different team now.
I don’t think that we could’ve afforded to pay Halladay and Beckett after next year, esp. not with Lester, Youk, and Dusty’s salaries growing. We’d also have to replace Lowell, Papi, Tek, Bay, and Drew within the few years, and trading prospects to Toronto makes it much harder to do.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
you're right
you make it sound so good. why does it not seem that good?
Anecdotal evidence has more persuasive power than it should?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Make sure you wash out the brain control shampoo.
It bleaches your hair if you leave it in too long.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
We need A-gonz, overpaying for him is more than ok, regardless of what anyone else says.
I’d settle for Victor Martinez if we got him for next to nothing.
Halladay won’t happen but I’d be happy if we had him.
I also think we will get a replacement for Green’s utility role @ SS, and a lefty reliever somewhere in all this somehow.
Sox need a hitter (s)
Sox need another lefty in the pen, not named Lopez
Sox need a utility guy prefer one with speed
Sign Matt Holliday in 2010, trade Jason Bay before Friday
Dice-K will return, and he will be very good.
For the record, Westmoreland is not in the Lowell lineup today for a scheduled day-off.
This is not indicative of any trade.
Isn't he too new to trade?
1 year after signing the contract, right?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Adam Dunn
For as much as Washington has said he’s not available he probably is. Won’t be suprised if he gets dealt.
Sox need a hitter (s)
Sox need another lefty in the pen, not named Lopez
Sox need a utility guy prefer one with speed
Sign Matt Holliday in 2010, trade Jason Bay before Friday
Dice-K will return, and he will be very good.
I doubt it
no reason to claim he is not available if he is. Although it matters little, he has forcefully claimed in the past that he does not want to DH…
Why on earth?
That’s like wanting to date a girl who loves to go out dancing if you can’t dance…
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 30, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Break your foot, claim you can't dance with her.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Slightly unrelated, but JD's out for tomorrow:
BOSTON _ J.D. Drew suffered an unspecified leg injury on Thursday and will likely miss Friday’s game in Baltimore.
After the Sox’ right fielder doubled in the bottom of the eighth inning, and later scored on a Jason Varitek RBI double, Drew was removed from the game and replaced with Rocco Baldelli for the top of the ninth inning.
Drew, who has been hampered with back problems in the past, supposedly tweaked something in his leg and will not be available on Friday.
—JOE McDONALD
http://soxblog.projo.com/2009/07/drew-injured-wi.html
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Indeed
Drew was 11 for his last 25 (.440 AVG), with 4 doubles. Let’s hope he just misses a game or two. Otherwise the Sox are in trouble, as Baldelli can’t play every day.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 30, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Duncan? Anderson?
Who would get called up to replace him? Assuming we don’t trade for anyone…
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
I think a big reason to get A-Gon is his age
Halladay is great but I think we need a #2/3 starter over a proven ace.
A-Gon is under 30, still under contract for over 2 years, wouldn’t hesitate to possibly extend.
by South Coast Ghost on Jul 30, 2009 9:19 PM EDT reply actions
Would still rather wait till the offseason.
No need to over-spend just because we think he “guarantees” us a playoff spot.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
The one thing about trading for him in the offseason is that I bet a lot more teams will be in on it if they make him available. Right now from what I gather we are the only ones seriously interested. But by the time free agency starts teams are going to evaluate themselves and think they could use a player like A Gonz, because nearly everyone considers themselves “buyers” in the offseason. I say as long as their asking price isn’t outrageous we should pay a little extra and get him now before we enter a bidding war with another team in the offseason.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Hmm, true.
I don’t know what other teams will be able to give serious consideration to acquiring him in the offseason, though. I’d assume Theo has multiple guys who have been researching this for weeks on end, and I’d trust him to make the right decision here.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Heard a rumor that the Red Sox countered back for Carlos Santana instead of VMart in a trade of Buchholz, Indians declined, but some speculate that they may have picked up Marson (part of the Lee deal) in an attempt to flip him later (probably off-season).
So, wait, we asked for Santana in exchange for Buch?
Odd plan. We wouldn’t be looking for Marson though, we have Jed and other SS prospects who have higher ceilings, IIRC.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
I'm sorry, total brain fail on my part.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
finally going to bed
happy the MFY lost in the bottom of the 9th
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
+1
Good to know we aren’t the only ones who can lose to teams we’re supposed to beat…
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Cleveland and Boston looking for a third trading partner
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4368061
Starks is the one who broke the story on the Lee deal. Seems like he has a good read on things.
Rosenthal disagrees
Here’s the link.
A lot can change in the final hours before the non-waiver deadline.
A lot can change in the final minutes.
But as Friday began, the Indians were pessimistic about their chances of trading catcher Victor Martinez — perhaps an indication that the Red Sox were making progress in their efforts to land Padres first baseman Adrian Gonzalez, perhaps not.
The Red Sox have been involved in discussions concerning Martinez, Gonzalez and Blue Jays right-hander Roy Halladay.
“Not much here,” one Indians official said.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Texas in on Halladay
That actually irritates me, because I was hoping we could swindle the Jays out of Halladay – on the theory that we had the premier prospect of the interested teams (Buch), and basically because J.P. Riccardi =/= smart. Unfortunately, Texas has Smoak, Teagarden, Holland, Feliz, etc. and Tom Hicks =/= smart either.
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 2:26 AM EDT reply actions
Halladay to Texas scares me though
they are only 1.5 games back in the wildcard race
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 31, 2009 4:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow, my bad.....
I meant that it has fallen through. Sorry to scare anybody
Fehr is fair, but I like Laich
V-Mart/Buchholz 3-Way Deal
If we do this I might literally vomit at my computer. Buchholz is more valuable to the team right now, not to mention the six cheap years we will be getting from him in the future. Adrian Gonzalez is the real guy to target, and an offer of Buch, Masterson, Lowrie, Doubront, and a lesser prospect would have to be considered a fair offer.
by Gnick on Jul 31, 2009 2:46 AM EDT reply actions
Dont do it Theo
instead of being stoked, we might get an impact player i will be scared all day that this deal gets done. The Phillies get the reigning Cy Young and 4.2 WAR Lee without giving up any of their best 4 prospects and we give up our best for and injury prone Martinez? Makes zero sense! We need Buch in the rotation right now!
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 31, 2009 4:01 AM EDT up reply actions
4 Best is in the eye of the beholder. I’m pretty sure some of the prospects they gave were ranked #2,#3 and #4 in their system by BA. It was still a haul but they kept Drabek and Happ, pitching prospects they really needed considering their rotation, they were more valuable to the team but not better.
But yeah, I hope we don’t get Martinez, it just doesn’t make any sense.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Come on...
…what team doesn’t want umpteen first basemen who nominally play other positions?
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Problem would've been if we gave up Buch+ for him.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Gnick
While I’d love to have Gonzalez, your offer is an off-season package. The Sox cannot afford to trade Buchholz and Masterson without getting a starter in return, or they’d have a HUGE hole in their rotation this year (that’s even assuming Masterson is stretched out enough to start this late in the season). Lowrie can’t be moved right now without getting a SS back. Nicj Green, despite what NG says, is not an everyday SS. He has been huge this year. But his numbers are falling fast. Green is, and always will be, a marginal player who is best suited to the bench.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
!
Nick Green, despite what NG says, is not an everyday SS.
Isn’t it funny how we never see NG and Nick Green at the same place at the same time?
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good point
But it could be remedied. If we believe that Wake can come back strong and Smoltz can rebound, or that Bowden could step in, then we’d fill that rotational hole. As for the problem at SS, I believe it could be solved by trading for Jack Wilson, who the Mariners are reportedly willing to flip.
by Gnick on Jul 31, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I really want AGon.
If we can just keep Westmoreland out of the trade. I know it’s a weird thing to focus on a player at A-level, but I don’t want to trade a guy who’s got a chance to be the next Hanley Ramirez type.
I honestly might well do Buchholz + Lars + Lowrie + Masterson assuming we can find someone to ship us a SS.
Hey, I hear that Julio Lugo guy is doing pretty well. Maybe we can get him?
Am I missing something?
Can Westmoreland be traded? I thought for sure you couldn’t be trade with a year of signing the contract bit his name keeps coming up in rumors.
by BigRedDog42 on Jul 31, 2009 9:30 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Didn't even think of that
Guess that’s the reason behind all that PTBNL nonsense.
by BigRedDog42 on Jul 31, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
if the sox throw in Bard, they might get Heath Bell in the agon trade also.
by BoldandBrash on Jul 31, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I say NO to that!!!!
I really like Bard and think he is the next Paps closer for when he walks because he cant get the $$$ he wants…
~ ROLL TIDE ~
GO SOX!!
+1; Bard > Bell
It would be like trading Bard for a lesser relief pitcher… I wouldn’t be intrinsically opposed to including Bard in a package for Gonzales, but not as an extra bonus to get a second piece…
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
What is the Pads only do the deal if it includes the Bard for Bell swap? Does that change your mind a little bit?
Fehr is fair, but I like Laich
Well yes
But I can’t imagine that being so. There has been interest in Bell from other teams, it’s not like they would force him into the deal as a salary dump.
I agree that I would much rather have Bard right now than Bell. To me, this isn’t even prospect vs. veteran. This is just MLB pitcher vs. MLB pitcher.
by BigRedDog42 on Jul 31, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough. Unless the Pads agree with all of us and think that Bard is better, so they need to make it an even deal. Thats what Im thinking in terms of them including this in the deal
Fehr is fair, but I like Laich
They probably do agree with us
But then they could just ask for Bard in the Gonzalez deal, they have all the leverage. It’s not like they have to give us back a closer in return to make up for the fact that they’re asking for Bard; they’re already giving us Gonzalez.
by BigRedDog42 on Jul 31, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Lars
The Padres won’t want Lars, their top prospect is a 1B.
by Gnick on Jul 31, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Report: The M's send Washburn to the Tigers
According to ESPN radio and FOXSports, the M’s traded Washburn to the Tigers for Luke French and “another prospect.” At least Washburn won’t be pitching in the Bronx.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
MLBDD reports that Sox are trying to send Buchholtz to Indians, receive Martinez, and with prospects going every which way, and then send Laroche to a third team. I would not be happy about this….
Fehr is fair, but I like Laich
Depends upon where these prospects go...
But since Buch is necessarily a centerpiece for deals which might net us Gonzales or Hallady, I agree.
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Only way this works for me...
Is if we get a name like Santana with it.
Buchholz + Prospect from Team X→ Cleveland
LaRoche + Prospect → Team X
V-Mart, Santana → Us
Or something like that.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Santana is probably worth more than any prospect in our system. He has been absurdly good the last two years and is a catcher. I really do not think they would trade him. Maybe Lou Marson though.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
R/T JonathanMayoB3
I’m hearing odds of Padres dealing AGonzalez are very low at this point. #mlbtrades
Fehr is fair, but I like Laich
What is the appeal?
Two players,
A) .295/.334/.487 11HR 50 RBI in 298 AB
B) .284/.368/.464 15 HR 67 RBI in 377 AB
Player A is Mike Lowell and Player B is Victor Martinez. Martinez is a transcendant hitter just because he didn’t go on the DL is year? Martinez is a vital asset because he can occasionally catch poorly? I just don’t understand why we’re giving up Bucholz to improve slightly, if at all.
I'm All For A-Gon
He’s defintley worth it. I don’t like Youk at third not going to lie (his fielding has taken a hit) but if we can get A-Gon I’ll deal with it.
I don’t like V-Mart no way no how. I’d rather stick with LaRoche then do something to get V-Mart.
I think everyone would like a Halladay on their team but if the Jays don’t like the package currently being offered I don’t think they should escolate it by offering more.
So I say avoid V-Mart all together, make A-Gon the number 1 priority (he’d be worth a Buchholz-LaRoche type package), and should those trade talks look like they’re going nowhere then maybe up the offer without going overboard for Halladay.
by sonicdeathmonkey on Jul 31, 2009 12:55 PM EDT reply actions
Update 1:07 ET: John Heyman of SI.com reports that the Red Sox and Padres continue to talk about an Adrian Gonzalez deal, but the Red Sox want to include Clay Buchholz, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson, however, the Padres also want Lars Anderson and Ryan Westmoreland. Yikes!
Fehr is fair, but I like Laich
Getting closer
I’d do Bucholz, Lowrie, Masterson, Lars, and replace Manifest with another outfielder, maybe Kalish.
It seems like the Sox value Westmoreland as much as anyone in the system.
if we're gonna win this year
we can’t trade buchholz and lowrie. trading buchholz would leave us with a highly suspect rotation, as we would end up leaning heavily on smoltz or the the return of dice-k. i am not convinced of penny and he would also be a mainstay for sure. as for lowrie, if we trade him then our SS is nick green, and thats it. theres no one else unless we make another deal. i would be in favor of this deal:
Bowden, masterson, lars, reddick and/or kalish. if thats not enough then fuck them.
Bucholz has to be in there
I just don’t see them doing any substantial trade unless he’s part of it.
i think we're screwing ourselves for this year if he is
of course dice-k might come back, and smoltz might wake up, and then we have the surplus that we thought we had.
i believe that we have enough of farm below buchholz that we could pull off any trade outside of pujols without giving up buchholz. right below me nuthinboutnuthin listed how deep our farm is. lars, bowden, masterson, westmoreland, reddick, kalish, hagadone, exposito or wagner, tazawa. maybe five of those. i wanna keep bard though, and kelly.
Is Bucholz really a sure help this year?
I haven’t seen Bucholz be much better than Smoltz this year. Plus, in the rumored deal, we could still bring up Bowden to pitch who has had some success in spot starts and is also considered a very good prospect.
Not to mention that the way Tazawa is quickly rising through the ranks, he could be a possible september call up. He’s done nothing but pitch well in all levels and has been pitching professionally for years in Japan.
I don't see why we're all assuming Bucko to be such an improvement over Wake/Smoltz/Penny.
He’s been OK. But as far as this year is concerned he’s no great boost unless you’re talking about Smoltz’ numbers at face value alone.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
uh what?
responding to red dog and usg: buchholz has been MUCH better than smoltz this year. yes, i am looking at numbers to decide this. smoltz’s era is around 7. buchs is 3.52. he hasn’t had a bad start yet, he had the one quality start and almost another one the other day. he hasnt had a bad inning yet. he’s young, healthy, and at this point has better stuff than smoltz, no doubt about it. but i dont think wake needs to go. i think wake is essential to the rotation this year. when he comes back i hope to have a rotation or beck lester buch wake and penny.
tazawa is next year. i think he’ll start next year. he just got promoted to triple A, he needs more than a month there to be ready for the majors. hes not going to be an essential piece by september. and bowden is still only 22, a bit young to be called upon.
At face value, sir.
K/9: 8.22 vs. 6.46
K/BB: 5.60 vs 1.57
LOB% 57.6% vs. 82%
HR/FB: 10.5% vs. 9.1%
BABIP: .394 vs. .358
FIP: 3.61 vs. 4.03
Smoltz is the first. He’s pitching better quite frankly. He’s just getting unlucky by-and-large. Neither of them are particularly lucky as evidenced by their BABIPs, but unless you accept a theory that the around 20-year veteran is suddenly getting rattled by pressure situations despite being both a closer and postseason star in the past…Well, yeah.
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 31, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Bleh
I think Clay, Jed, Justin and Lars should be quite sufficient for AGon. Certainly adding Manifest on top of that is overkill (as would even Reddick at that point, I think)…
Here’s why I love our player development system, though. We’d still have:
Westmoreland, Bowden, Reddick, Kelly, Tazawa and Pimentel – all of whom would crack most systems’ top 10; plus guys like Hagadone, Navarro, Lin (whom I like more than most), Kalish, Exposito, Fife, Almanzar (who is young and needs to adjust) and our new guys from this year.
Unfortunately, this is why a deal rarely gets done before the last possible second. GMs all want the crown jewels, and won’t settle until there’s like five seconds left before the deadline.
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe too generous on Stolmy
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Definitelty an underrated point
The amount of players that we would still have. But if Buch, Lowrie, Masterson, and Lars is not enough, and all it would take to push it over the edge was a Kalish, or a Exposito than I would be happy to do it.
What would we do at short?
Scutaro from the Jays? Peralta?
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
i just read an unfortunate update from jayson stark
saying the asking price for gonzalez is “three times the asking price on Halladay.”
Can't say I'm terribly surprised
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting
Does that mean that Halladay’s price is significantly less than Bucholz, Masterson, Lowrie, Lars, + (Which I will hensforth refer to as BMLL+)
I think it is less...
…but not by much. Just that the Pads may be asking for BMBLLBW or something.
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
If you mean a straight-up...
… I can’t see them going for it. Gonzales is more valuable than Paps, and the Padres don’t need a closer because they’re never in the lead at the end of the game. Plus, I think that offering Paps closes the door on ‘09 for us. Don’t get me wrong, when his cost-controlled years are up I’ll be happy to take the two draft picks, but for now we need him.
Obviously, when I see “we” I’m not including my cardiac well-being…
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus, they have a closer in Heath Bell.
And why on earth would they want a closer who’s going to be demanding huge pay?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Twitter is blowing up with it
RT @mlbtraderumors: RT @BNightengale The Red Sox are about to acquire Victor Martinez from Indians #mlbtrades
Fehr is fair, but I like Laich
someone compared the avg/obp/slug of lowell and vmart above.
they were almost identical. this is worrisome
Looks like Buch is going to Cleveland and LaRoche to a 3rd team involved
but no other details from ESPN yet
It just updated at 2:19 pm, which is just when I clicked on it
maybe it wasn’t related to the pending deal, though.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4368061
By Mike Silva ~ July 31st, 2009. Filed under: Rumor Mill.
Joe Demayo just told me he heard Mets will be obtaining Adam LaRoche from Boston – details to follow. Working on finding out more info.
We should all go to the same thread. Going between this and the other is killing me.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
I chose this one.
but people were posting in the other one too.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
Masterson is part of deal.
http://twitter.com/JonathanMayoB3/status/3055664321
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
100% fine with that.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
As long as no Buch.
I can deal with Hagadone and Masterson.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
i still think its an unnecessary trade though
i think vmart is very overrated and slumping since july
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 31, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
masterson is one of the guys that i have no problem at all with dealing
although i do love him for last years playoffs
Thats why he is absurdly overrated by many fans. Lets use the bigger sample rather than the smaller one please.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
well it showed that he was cut out for boston
that he was at his best under pressure
yeah
he made me nervous, but got the job done.
by BoldandBrash on Jul 31, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
he was phenomenal
and i think thats the main reason that he has trade value. and the fact he can start or relieve
Or that he was lucky…do we really know?
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
well if we're trading him
then it doesnt matter. but hes got a great sinker, it gets you out of jams
Still a reliever though
There’s just not much value in middle relief and he really didn’t have a future as a starter here.
I still don’t understand why we want the guy. As I said before, we already have Lowell. At least Lowell doesn’t push Youk out of position.
by BigRedDog42 on Jul 31, 2009 2:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i disagree
i think he has a chance to be a fourth or fifth starter. he has been solid for us as a starter, hes a groundball pitcher, decent velocity and slider. and hes still getting better. the tribe should throw him right into the rotation
I agree
I think he is a starter and will do well in Clev. I just don’t he wouldve been a starter here. Between Buch, Bowden, Kelley, Tazawa, Stolmy … There was no way he couldve snagged a rotation spot.
by BigRedDog42 on Jul 31, 2009 3:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
no the reports are pretty positive
that we’re getting martinez
Doubtful
But I suppose Halladay is still in the cards. Unfortunately, Gonzalez appears to be out.
by BigRedDog42 on Jul 31, 2009 2:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
yeah interestingly
if we only give up masterson hagadone and a lower level, we still have such a deep farm system that another blockbuster is clearly possible, either for halladay now or someone else in the winter. maybe hanley, but im getting ahead of myself. the point is, the reports are pointing toward a good deal for us, our farm would be basically untouched if its just masterson and hagadone + 1 more, and we’d be getting a quality hitter in return. thats a win.
Jonathan Mayo from mlb.com
Indians and Red Sox still working on it; looking at names to add to Masterson and Hagadone
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 31, 2009 2:45 PM EDT reply actions
just no one else in the top 15
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
that would be ideal
and make me VERY happy. im expecting one more top 15 guy
i think we could get a decent relief pitcher for him
i think we got him way too easy from pittsburgh. it was a salary dump for them
i wanna know what we're getting for laroche
at least something
MLB netwrok says Bryan Price
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
i've never heard of price
gonna go to soxprospects
He kinda sucks
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
i knew cleveland would settle for other players than buch or bard.
good thing shapiro is stupid.
by BoldandBrash on Jul 31, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
his scouting report is decent, but we have so many good arms down there
he has the value of like a sandwich
Thats a big difference.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
wow once again good for us
is shapiro retarded?
the owners( the Dolans) want to dump salary.
they force trades. they are retarded too.
by BoldandBrash on Jul 31, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
you cant ever be a winner if youre always dumping salary
look at the players the pirates have traded since 2003. they would have the NL all star team if they hadn’t traded anybody.
I wonder what we could get for LaRoche
You know the drill.
Really, though, probably a mid-level prospect. Nothing too impressive.
he's a decent power guy
hits 25 a year, drives in 85. we should get something decent in return
Edes-to-fact translation
Adam LaRoche will be traded to the Atlanta Braves
actually means:
I watched The Rock and Braveheart on TBS last night
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Braves Acquire Adam LaRoche
bq.LaRoche has been traded to the Braves, according to Yahoo’s Gordon Edes.bq
Via: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/07/braves-interested-in-adam-laroche.html
to sum up my thoughts at the moment
if the reports stay this way, masterson + hagadone + price for Martinez, I am ecstatic. We aren’t even putting a dent in our farm system, we’re losing a little bit of long relief and starting depth in Masterson that can be replaced by Hunter Jones, but we aren’t even coming close to our top prospects. They are all safe, and we’re getting a very good hitter who although not a defensive wizard, has been getting better at catching. It is an offensive upgrade for us, no doubt. And we are giving up relatively little. I am happy.
Depth move
Also, he’s a juicer. I know, shocking…
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
And...
..we’re done…
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 31, 2009 4:01 PM EDT reply actions
Got Kotchman for LaRoche.
Defensive upgrade.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
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