Jason Bay has NOT adequately replaced Manny Ramirez
by Gnick on Jul 30, 2009 12:47 AM EDT
196 comments
Since coming to the Boston Red Sox last July, Jason Bay has endeared himself to the fans of Red Sox Nation. But is this love merited? Has Bay really replaced Manny, or even been an all-star caliber player since joining the Sox? My answer is no. I also think that the Sox should have hung on to Manny (discounting the steroid scandal that did not factor into the decision making process), despite his lack of hustle and effort here in Boston.
For all that was made of Manny not trying here in 2008 he still did remarkably well. His final line was .299/.398/.529. Bay, for all his effort, has managed .254/.380/.500, and that was before tonight's 0-4 1BB performance. For all the crap Manny took in the field his UZR/150 last year was a slightly below average -3.2, Bay's this year is -11.1, and it was -18.2 last year. For all the talk of Manny dogging it last year he still managed a 136 OPS+ and a slightly below average performance in the field.
In terms of the contract situation, well, just look at how it turned out. Manny re-signed for a very reasonable 2yr/45mil, whereas Bay will probably be looking for 5yr/75mil after the season is over. I'll take the shorter, safer, Manny deal any day of the week. I don't have the information for it available, but I can guarantee that Manny jerseys and memorabilia would be generating more than the Bay's, which means the team would have a little more money to spend.
Bottom line, Bay is getting off way too easy here. And his treatment as compared to Manny's really bothers me on many levels. I honestly believe there is a bit of not-so-subtle racism at play here, from both a historically racist city and a historically racist industry. Bay is white, and as such can get a pass from the media by being "gritty" and a "hustle player", but when is the last time you heard these adjectives applied to Chone Figgins, or Carl Crawford? Manny, however, is immediately called out for being lazy and not caring, despite his superior performance on the field. When it comes down to it, performance on the field is what wins games, two guys can try as hard or as little as they want, but when it comes down to it, the guy who hits and fields better is the player more beneficial to the team.
In conclusion, stop giving Jason Bay a pass. Sure he's a good player, but he's not an elite one, and he is no where close to as good as Manny was, or is. When it comes down to it we have to face facts: Jason Bay has accumulated 4.7 WAR in his last 2 1/2 seasons, a timeframe spanning 397 games played by him. Manny had 6.5 WAR in 153 games last year alone. To give a further point of reference, Marlon Byrd has been worth 7.1 WAR over the same time-span, Shin-Soo Choo has been 5.7, and Aaron Rowand 9.7. In fact, Randy Winn was worth just .2 WAR less last season alone. These players are the company Bay deserves to be mentioned with, not the stars like Braun, Kemp, and Holliday. Regardless of how hard he tries, all that matters is how he produces, and if that continues to be unsatisfactory, then maybe it is time we should show him the door this offseason.
0 recs |
196 comments
Email
Print
Comments
This seems an unnecessary post.
We all know he’s been bad for a few months.
by USG on Jul 30, 2009 1:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
bay got helped alot
by both the league division and team he was on for putting up stats
by Chris Schlitz on Jul 30, 2009 1:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We all knew Bay isnt Manny
But Manny had to go and the Sox got atleast a decent player, which could have ended up in almost nothing. So permanently comparing Bay to Manny doesnt help us now.
On the other hand I’m also the first to admit that watching Bay swing for the next breaking ball in the dirt is painful. I sometimes wonder how he could even put up the numbers he had, when i see his approach of breaking balls.
I don’t think he gets more that 4/50 anywhere and he shouldn’t. But there will be other outfield options if he really demands more sings somewhere else: Holliday and Abreu just to name 2. I can very well imagine someone else playing LF for the Sox next year.
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 30, 2009 2:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A few things:
You are including Bay’s 2007 season in the WAR calculation, which was an injury filled, horrible year for the guy. Also, we all know how wierd UZR is in the Fenway OF (and UZR is used to calculate WAR by FG’s).
The whole race thing seems a little odd. I mean, Chone Figgins is loved by the media and fans alike. The guy has been a league average hitter most of his career, but made an all-star game and has recieved MVP votes. “Gritty” and “hustle player” are the exact adjectives used to describe him.
And don’t forget some of Manny’s transgressions. He refused to pinch hit; he physically assaulted a team employee; he never, ever ran anything out. ever. But he is still an immensely popular player in Boston. More than Jason Bay will ever be. I love Manny, but the guy has his flaws.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jul 30, 2009 2:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So because he had a crappy year in 07 we should just discount it?
by Gnick on Jul 30, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Injuries.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His horrible past few months are made even worse considering how well he did early in the season
In reality, he’s sitting with an .890 OPS over the whole season so far, and he’s a career .890 OPS kinda guy (although that’s dragged down a bit by 2007). People expecting him to hit as well as Manny were deluding themselves.
by South Coast Ghost on Jul 30, 2009 3:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
THE RACE CARD??
Did you seriously just pull the race card?
This post just became null & void.
by Bloggy on Jul 30, 2009 6:03 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Oh I pulled it
Do you really disagree? I’m not the first person to bring it up in this context. Fire Joe Morgan brought it up like 1,000 times, usually when talking about Eckstein.
by Gnick on Jul 30, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Child, PLEASE.
Yeah. I really, really disagree. Who’s been the most beloved member of the Boston Red Sox over the past five or six years? David Ortiz. Reminds you a lot of Ron Howard, does he?
Heaven forbid the reason that people crap on ManRam is based on any of his actual actions or perceived actions. Nope…it’s racial. Give me a break. I could give a hang what was brought up over on FJM. That’s flat out stupid.
by Bloggy on Jul 30, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
For that matter, contrast the treatment of Ortiz with that of Drew
Drew hasn’t been very good by any standard, and he certainly doesn’t have the history with the Sox that Ortiz does, but he’s taken all kinds of crap from the fans this year when he’s been far superior to Ortiz, who has made us wonder with his play this year whether the Large Father is really more of a Grandpa.
by RSNexile on Jul 30, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not saying that it’s not possible for a black player to endear himself to the fans, years of game winning home runs will do that. But why do you think some black players say they don’t want to play here?
by Gnick on Jul 30, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably for the same reasons that some white players, some Hispanic players, some Asian players, and some players who are green with orange polka dots don’t want to play here. It’s a tough place to play and not everyone can hack it.
But here’s the thing: if you want to play the race card, you damn well better have something to back it up. Otherwise you’re just being obnoxious and inflammatory.
by RSNexile on Jul 30, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm... Papi and Manny are not black.
Just pointing that out.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They’re not African-American. But Papi is definitely black, Manny a little less so I guess. But, really who cares?
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jul 30, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
I used black because I was once yelled at for calling an African (like, he lives in Africa, was born and raised there, and has never left it), black, and not “African American.” Plus, there are white Africans.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I once met an albino negro in Trinidad...
It left me wondering how he would be discriminated against – for being black or being albino.
by ericsoderstrom on Aug 4, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So very sad...
Too bad we can’t feel sorry for him without being discriminate. Damn PC world.
@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 4, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See above comment.
To me, black = what most people call African American. I just refuse to use that term b/c it’s stupid.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 1, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drew was great last year.
And he should get more love than he does.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
And, he hasn’t been bad this year.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 30, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you imagine how other players on the team felt as Manny
walked down to first many times and was out because he felt he did not have to play be ther rules. Do you want every player to act like that, and would that lead to a winning team?
You cannot manage a team with a player like Manny who won’t play by the rules. This is important. BTW, you did not that he was suspended for 50 games (more rule violations), which also makes it hard for him to do well.
by NG on Jul 30, 2009 7:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He said:
(discounting the steroid scandal that did not factor into the decision making process)
So, unless the Sox FO knew that Manny was using (I mean had concrete evidence), they we’re simply trading a problem away. They didn’t know that they would dodge a bullet with the suspension.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What a joke...
What a joke that someone is still writing about Manny and Boston.
First of all, get over it. Second… the guy did not want to come back. How fn obvious did he need to get? Management did all they could over the years with this guy. What a waste of time to even talk about this. But finally… who else was out there for the Sox to bring in? Get over it and move on … I’ll take Bay any day over the “cheater”.
by dhoude on Jul 30, 2009 8:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Manny
Had team options on his contract, he had to come back in management said so. Not to mention that they could have explored appeasing him with an extension. The steroid scandal took place this year, so nowhere is that part of the discussion.
by Gnick on Jul 30, 2009 10:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He could have refused to play, demanded a trade, or pulled a Colon on us.
Just because the rules say he has to play doesn’t mean he actually has to.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Manny...
Was a cancer on the team. He had no hustle, he was taking himself out of games and plainly didn’t want to be here anymore. I guarantee you that if Manny said “Don’t pick up my option because I’m not playing for you next year” then he would have been released from his contract. We should be grateful that we got something for him. Bay is having a tough time this year but he isn’t causing off the field problems with the team, problems that could affect the performance of ALL and not just himself. He was a headache for everyone and it didn’t do the other players on the team any good watching a guy who was supposed to be a leader walkout a ground out or not try for the diving catch in left once in a while.
Of course Bay isn’t as good as Manny. No one uses the words “One of baseball’s greatest hitters” to describe him, they do Manny though. Also, Chone Figgins and Carl Crawford are coveted everywhere for their grit, hustle and attitude, don’t pull a race card, Manny was beloved in this city for many years before he quit on us. And that is exactly what he did, he quit and everyone knew it. I’m not a huge fan of being quit on, especially in an era of Boston baseball where we expect excellence, heart and hard work from our players.
Bay hasn’t quit on us and that is why we aren’t crucifying him for his performance. We know that every game he is going out there trying to fix his game, trying to become a better player for us. This team is much better off with Bay than Manny.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jul 30, 2009 10:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is it weird that we mentioned CC and Chone in the GT today as unlikely but preferable FA signings?
I hadn’t read this thread yet, either. I’d say the majority of us couldn’t give less of a crap about what race a player is as long as he’s good.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again
Not really talking about us, talking about the media.
by Gnick on Jul 31, 2009 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get that
but the Media loved Manny too. “Manny being Manny” was coined by the local media, it was a freakin slogan for the Globe and WEEI. If you are saying the boston Media which consists of old white dudes for the most part is racist? Gordon Edes, Nick Cafardo, Shaugnesssey, Borges, et al? Of course they are racist. They are old white dudes. And they all flat out make shit up. A lot!!
Only Borges got caught at it. At least he uses spell check though.
But to say the city itself is racist is just wrong dude. Seriously. I am from here and maybe some cops are bad, and defintely the pols suck, but the people? They are pretty good. I am tired of people including the majority for the acts of the messed-up few.
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Jul 31, 2009 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is that in terms of sports the writers listed have major influence over the average fan.
by Gnick on Aug 2, 2009 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately.
But it’s not our fault most fans are stupid.
@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 2, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously????
WTF are you smoking Gnick? Manny was ultra-beloved here in Boston. In fact he still is by the majorit of “Red Sox Nation”! I’m sick and tired of complete idiots like you saying that this town is still racist towards its sports stars. I mean dude let’s just look at the last decade of Red Sox greats that have been swoooned over and their heritage. Idiot.
Mo Vaughn ~ White Guy
Nomar Garciaparra ~ White Guy
Tom " Flash " Gordon ~ White Guy
Pedro Martinez ~ White Guy
Jacoby Ellsbury ~ White Guy
David Ortiz ~ HUGE White Guy
Manny ~ Really White Guy
Youk ~ Oh wait he is white. Dang. Well maybe we are racist. I hate white guys! Wait, I am white. Awww.
Idiot.
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Jul 30, 2009 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Rec'd
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jul 30, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CONFESSION:
I still love Manny.
I miss him.
That is all.
by Bloggy on Jul 30, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MassGal alt account?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where I grew up, Youk wouldn't be considered white because he's Jewish
Lots of racists where I grew up.
by RSNexile on Jul 30, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't that be anti-semitic, not racist?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but it's pretty much the same thing.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jul 30, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meh.
At least they’d be insulting a chosen characteristic, rather than one that was pre-determined.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Religion is not really chosen by many.
And being Jewish is an ethnicity as much a religion.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jul 30, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, most people just go with what they're raised as.
Semantics, but isn’t the proper term Hebrew for race?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
Hebrew is the language spoken by Jews i believe
by Schulz on Jul 31, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shows how much I know.
I’m going to step out of this conversation now.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 31, 2009 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We speak lots of languages
For instance, I’m Jewish and I’ve been told my English is passable.
by RSNexile on Aug 1, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd.
Awesome.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 1, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anti-Semitism is a form of racism
Hell, the term anti-Semitism was invented by Wilhelm Marr for the express purpose of promoting hatred of Jews on the basis of race rather than religion.
by RSNexile on Aug 1, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the distinction he was making was that it is not racism because being Jewish is not a race. Certainly anti-Semitism is a form of despicable prejudiced hatred, but literally it would not be considered racism. Literally, people who hate Irish-Catholics based on their heritage are not racists either. Just semantics though.
Interestingly, a Semite is also literally a person who descends from ancient people from the area. So an Arab is actually a Semite. Which is weird.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Aug 1, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you want to play semantical games with the definitions, why stop there?
Why not just admit that there is no such thing as race? Or you could go the other way, as several leading scholars do, and say that there is no difference between race and ethnicity? If you take the semantical argument to its logical conclusion, there is no such thing as racism because there is no such thing as race; there is still bigotry, but that’s not the same thing. If you go with the leading experts, though, anti-Semitism is racism, and so would be hatred of Irish-Catholics based on their heritage. Considering that in the heyday of anti-Irish-Catholic bigotry in this country Irish-Catholics were treated as non-white by many bigots, that would certainly seem to fit.
And while no one with any sense would dispute that Arabs are Semites, anti-Semitism has never referred to hatred of anyone other than Jews. In fact, these days, the only people who seriously claim that it does are themselves anti-Semites.
by RSNexile on Aug 1, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Weird.
They’re experts on the different forms of hate?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 1, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why wouldn't there be experts on different forms of hate?
You can’t change a pervasive antisocial attitude until you understand it. And if you’re a victim of it, you’re going to want to know the tendencies of the people who hate you so you can protect yourself.
by RSNexile on Aug 1, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess.
Just doesn’t seem like something you could make a career out of – probably means I don’t know nearly enough about it to understand how much of it there is to learn, I guess.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 1, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s all agree that the best race is the human race. Oh, and the Boston Marathon.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Aug 1, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only agreeing to the first.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 1, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Woah.
Exactly, this is all semantics.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 1, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only two of those players listed are African-American.
by Gnick on Jul 30, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude you are
Hilarious. Only 2 out of 8. 25% Not good enough?
Ellis Burks. Loved him.
Troy O’Leary best TWO postseason HR in sox history before 2004. Remember when they walked Nomar the second time in Game 5 ? I knew Troy was going to hit it out.
Reggie Jefferson the Hit Cat.
Darren Lewis Best Defensive Center Fielder I have ever seen play.
Pokey Reese One of the Best Defensive Shortstops I Have Ever seen.
Is that enough? Do you really intend to continue this?
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Jul 30, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn’t matter in least bit who you like more. The discussion is about the media and the city.
by Gnick on Jul 30, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure that RSN is not limited to NESN and the confines of the city of Boston.
Maybe we need to do a post to est. where everyone is from on here.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not in Arm Strength
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Jul 30, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
I figure Mo Vaughn and Tom Gordon are African American. Manny, Pedro, and Big Papi are all naturalized American citizens, if I’m not mistaken, and I suspect if they were filling out Census forms they’d each be more likely to check the box for “black” in the section asking about race than they would “white,” though no category excludes others.
So that’s five African Americans on the list, plus others mentioned by jkeough. And Nomar is Hispanic, and Ellsbury is Native American, but they don’t count to you why? Is race only a matter of black and white to you?
by RSNexile on Jul 30, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are there only two options for race on a census form?
I’ve never seen one, but I’d assume not.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are a lot of options
On all federal documents that ask about race, there are at least five options:
1) White
2) Black or African American
3) American Indian or Native Alaskan
4) Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
5) Asian
Hispanic is not considered a race; it’s a panethnic category that is asked about at the same time as race but separate and distinct from it.
by RSNexile on Aug 1, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I think Hispanic is now a race, IIRC.
Or maybe it’s just Florida – I don’t really know. We were given forms to take home and get signed about it in the Spring, and I didn’t really give it any attention.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 1, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Papi, Manny, and Pedro
Probably all filled out “hispanic” on their census forms.
by Gnick on Jul 31, 2009 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably, but whether or not one is Hispanic is a different question on the form
First you get asked your race, then you get asked if you’re Hispanic. For a wide variety of reasons, the Hispanic category is treated differently.
by RSNexile on Aug 1, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still not sure why it matters though.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 1, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Red Sox ownership (ie the Yawkeys) have a long history of being racists...
Many African American players don’t want to play in Boston. The whole “Darryl” chant was looked upon as racist, for example.
If it wasn’t until Jean Yawkey died, that the Sox FO tried change the Sox’s image with African American players.
by superferret on Aug 1, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The whole country has a long history of being racists.
That’s the past. Saying that Bay gets a pass when Manny wouldn’t because of race is the issue at hand, and it’s horseshit.
by Bloggy on Aug 1, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the Yawkeys have nothing to do with the
Current issue. Thanks for not contributing.
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Aug 1, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was just trying to explain why some people still associate the Sox with racism, I think.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 1, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes they do..
Because the Sox FO has to try twice as hard to get rid of stereotype that Boston Red Sox isn’t the best place for African American players to play ball at, and the fans are racists.
It is easy to identify the archetypes of racism of the past, it is difficult to identity the archetypes of the present…
Two words can describe Tom Yawkey’s racism : Willie Mays.
by superferret on Aug 2, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the
sterotype still exists for players that is a travesty of their own making. If you had the oppurtunity to play for a championship contender that pays well and chose not to because you didn’t research a team thoroughly or a city thoroughly enough to know that pretty much any player here that performs is worshipped, then you probably are not smart enough to play here anyways whether you are black, white or purple.
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Aug 2, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still exists!?!?
The United States is trying to figure out slavery and its impact. It took pretty much federal troops and strong arm tactics of the Dept of Justice to break segregation in the South, which was less than 40 years ago. Bussing was a big issue in Boston. Roxbury was poor Irish Catholic once upon a time. (many years ago, probably pre WW2) The segregation and racism in Northern Cities was more de facto than the de jure segregation in the South. you are not going to see many Red Sox hats in Roxbury and Jamaica Plain, compare to other areas in New England..
The Sox have made strides, starting with Duquette in having better community relations, but they still look a bit too lily white to many African Americans…
by superferret on Aug 2, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
opps..
I meant less than 50 years a go, when the Federal Gov’t strong armed many Southern State Governments, specifically, Alabama and Mississippi.
by superferret on Aug 2, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reply to superferret
Seriously? Is this something intelligent people think about? Do you want to know why the amount of black players have dropped in the major leagues? Football and basketball are cheaper to play at the school-grade level. Baseball is not only more expenisve equipment wise(and travel wise!) but MLB alsos does a terrible job promoting it’s black stars. The NBA and the NFL however makes their marketing effort even handed. AND the college level Football & Basketball teams that produces pro-level atheletes cheat profusely, doesn’t happen as much in Baseball(except at Texas & LSU, but they cheat in all sports & by cheat I mean pay their players).’
None of these issues have anything to do with the city of Boston. Which I grew up in and still work in. Boston is one of the most diverse middle-sized cities in the world as far as population. It’s stars are treated like royalty if they produce regardless of ethnicity. My entire original response was to the fact that Gnick though Bay was getting a pass because he is white and Manny got the raw end because he was not white.
That original point was completely uninformed. Manny got the raw deal because he quit. Bay hasn’ t been here long enough to be said to have gotten a “pass” and it is certainly not because he was white.
If the media, cops & politicians in this city are racist that has nothing to do with the people of Boston. If players across sports are dumb enough to not see that then they are just dumb. If you equate the great struggles of 50 years ago with today you are also misinformed. It is a generational issue. I grew up on the corner of School St and Center St which is the heart of JP. There are more real Red Sox fans in those neighborhoods than anywhere in the city. Superferret do not speak of what you do not know. Just because we don’t buy six shirts in six different colors or 6 hats in six different styles doesn’t make us not Sox fans. I live and die with this team. My best friend for the last 22 years lives and dies with this team. My favorite player is Big Papi my buddy likes Pedroia. I am white, he is black. When it comes down to it, racism exsits only in the minds of people who are racist. Those of us who see the human race as one race are clearly fewer than those who dont’t.
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Aug 2, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're incredibly ignorant
How many articles have you seen crucifying Bay for his struggles since June 1st? None.
For the last time, I am not speaking in regards to the educated fan, like most people who post here, I am talking about the average fan who listens to everything the media says about the sport. The guys who still rely on RBIs and Runs to determine who is good.
Lastly, “racism exists only in the minds of people who are racist.” Wow, just wow. If you cannot recognize the fact that racism still exits in America then you need to open your eyes and stop acting like a jackass. Just because you have a couple black friends doesn’t mean that racism isn’t alive and well. For a recent local example check out the Henry Louis Gates affair. I find it extremely disappointing that there are people who believe all the work to be done about racism is finished. And you’re setting the progress of the country back with that naive thinking.
by Gnick on Aug 3, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And here we go
with Gates. It was not a racist incident. It was two jackasses acting like jackasses. Both of them were wrong. Both. Once again you are proving my point.
Have you ever tried to teach a child a skill? Of any kind? say the first time they do it wrong, how do you correct them AND reinforce them? “great job! now do it again and add this and you will be better” and so on.
Teaching the rest of the world that we are not made up of races is like teaching a child. Slow work. Very Very Slow. Humanity is one race. Just different skin colors and shapes. Like dogs or cats or lizards or trees or bees. Just different colors and shapes.
It’s not about “a couple black friends” its that I do not view them as black except for these types of arguments. Manny isn’t Dominican to me, his name is Manny Ramirez and he played left field for the Red Sox. Your point has no place here.
Jason Bay has sucked for 4 months. SUCKED. And there have been articles, and there have been radio & TV stuff on it. But the criticism he faces is for his sucking. Not for his qutting.
The articles about Manny last year were not about his sucking, it was about his quitting on the team in key moments AND pushing down an old guy AND acting like an ass(more than he usually did). Management made the change because the clubhouse demanded it. This was never about race it was about being a shitty teammate.
Jason Bay apparently is a great teammate. Even though he currently sucks, and doesn’t play the monster right.
My whole point is that you brought up race for no reason. The issues were different. Manny never sucked on the field. He an asshole to his teammates and he deserved the venom directed at him.
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Aug 3, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I have to say is that I cannot believe there are people who think that racism only exists in some other people’s minds.
by Gnick on Aug 3, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes it was a racial incident..
Gates is chair of the African American Studies department at Harvard. He is going to look at pretty much everything through a racial relations paradigm. Especially matters dealing with Police. It doesn’t mean I agree with Gates’s actions or condemn the Cambridge officer’s actions, it is just that that nerve is very close to the surface in the fabric of United States’ society. Much like if a Freudian psychotherapist got arrested instead, he would frame the debate in id, ego and superego terms.
On Bay, it is not that I think people are giving him a free pass because he is white. It is that I don’t think Sox fans have not made a firm judgement on Bay yet, or an up or down vote, compare to someone like Lugo, who pretty much most Sox fans wanted off the team, or someone like Mike Timlin. Much like fans are losing patience on the promise child, I mean Buchholz.
No matter if race is not a direct or indirect factor. It is going to be in the background with the Sox for some years to come…
This NPR piece in 2002, with the change of ownership gives a bit of what mountain the Sox Management has to climb to improve community outreach in Boston.
http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2002/oct/redsox/
by superferret on Aug 4, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Bay does seem to be getting a pass,
but I think it is terribly over-simplistic to think this is because he is white. Jason Varitek received a substantial amount of criticism last season when he sucked. JD Drew was basically crucified for his failures in 2007. These men are both obviously white. Why are there different standards for different players? I don;t know. But to say that it is simply because of the color of their skin is just plain wrong.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Aug 3, 2009 4:23 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
Goddammit, I can’t believe this thread is still going on. Wait a minute, yes I can. Gnick pulled the race card…that’s all it takes.
Anywho, I think the word “over-simplistic” is the best possible word to use. What’s the difference between Manny and Bay? Well, look at them!
Must be race.
That, of course…is over-simplistic, and doesn’t do look at anything like attitude, work-ethic, and most importantly….THE DRAMA-LLAMA. Manny rode around on a Drama Llama. Bay doesn’t. People got sick of the Drama Llama and in contrast immediately took to Bay’s Canadian normalcy. And that’s why he gets a grace period….because people are still remembering all the @#$%ing drama.
He keeps hitting two-fitty then it will all start to wear thin, and you can already tell the grace period is coming to an end.
by Bloggy on Aug 3, 2009 8:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even though this is about Sports
As Sox fans, we have to realize that the Sox had a pretty unseemly bigoted past with the Yawkeys, and many African American athletes didn’t have a very good time living in Boston. Bill Russell complained about it. If someone broke into your house and shit in your bed, which happened to Russell, because of his ethnic heritage, I think he has a right to be pissed off.
As an Irish American, I tend to remind those who tout the British way of life and British Civilization that there was another side of British rule that was more akin to Tsarist Russia’s Pograms, and what is happening in Dafur, happened in Ireland for many years in the 19th Century. The way to not to repeat the past is to learn it, that is all.
It is still going to take some time. The good thing for the Sox, is that they are the religion in New England.
by superferret on Aug 4, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did
you just buy an encyclopedia? I mean references to Tzarist Russia, Darfur, The Yawkeys, Britsh Rule and Bill Russell. Wow.
All that and you are still incorrect in your (and Gnick’s) view of the current state of Boston.
Ian Browne aspires to be like me.
by jkeough on Aug 4, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bay
I’m not saying he’s getting a pass specifically because he’s white, but rather he can get a pass because of his “hustle” and “grit”, which are only applied to him because he’s white.
by Gnick on Aug 3, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was because of his very good start that he is getting a pass. He put up really good numbers when he got here and at the beginning of the season. When that happens, you have to be bad for a while to get fans’ attention because the aggregate numbers are still good.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Aug 3, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the words of the Etrade baby
“This isn’t the venue”
This place is filled with the educated fan you aren’t trying to reach. If you want to talk to the “average fan” please to go the ESPN or yahoo boards.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Aug 3, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not that I’m trying to talk to the average fan, but rather I’m trying to talk about the average fan.
by Gnick on Aug 3, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, we all agree, they're morons.
Next topic…
@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 3, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I sort of take the attitude of that known "capitalist" Zhou Enlai
When he was asked about the impact of the French Revolution, he stated it was “too early to tell”, spoken by a person who’s nation recorded history goes back to the late Neolithic age.
Race relations is going still be an issue for this country and cities like Boston, long after we are no longer on this planet.
by superferret on Aug 4, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you
just copying full text from the paragraphs of the Internationalist? Seriously?
Ian Browne aspires to be like me.
by jkeough on Aug 4, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
i just read alot. I was a history major once upon a time…. The only I looked up was some of the links about the Red Sox racist problem deep within the organization.
by superferret on Aug 4, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Deep within
YEARS AGO. Not now.
Ian Browne aspires to be like me.
by jkeough on Aug 5, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn’t matter if the organization isn’t racist now (it isn’t), there still is a racist image left from its past.
by Gnick on Aug 5, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only Gnick knows that it isn't racist now.
None of them dumb jocks are smart enough to figure it out.
Man I love that tuna casserole.
by Bloggy on Aug 5, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes Bloggy
Because everyone knows how easy it is to dispel long-lasting images of racism.
by Gnick on Aug 5, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only you know.
And that’s only a-cuz you go to a big boy’s school.
Man I love that tuna casserole.
by Bloggy on Aug 5, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I highly doubt most players do much extensive research on the cities of the teams with which they are considering signing.
by Gnick on Aug 2, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Teix's wife did some research. :)
@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 2, 2009 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they
don’t and there are millions of dollars on the line, then they are complete idiots. And if their agents don’t do the same thing they should be fired. How can a person not pay attention to such an important issue that could affect them for years to come?
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Aug 2, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They do
It’s just that they probably don’t go far past the stereotypes.
by Gnick on Aug 3, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How the hell do you know?
Yes because I’m sure Bloggy is in close contact with every major league free agent. His Friday night consists of shooting the shit with David Wright before going out to a club with Barry Zito and Troy Tulowitzski. Thank God the Red Sox have such a close contact with all the players in Bloggy, he can dispel any myths and perceptions about Boston and the Red Sox.
by Gnick on Aug 3, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How the hell do I know?
Simple, child.
Because I have common sense. Not only that, but I have actually MYSELF moved places, and haven’t been stupid enough to not go there because they might “hate Nova Scotians” or something as ridiculous as that. Oh, I wouldn’t move there, Bloggy. They don’t like guys with beards.
You know, if someone was gonna pay me millions of dollars to move to a place, I’d look into it.
I find it interesting that you are attacking me because you think that I’m acting like I have the ear of all the free agent market, when you did the exact same thing, assuming that “they don’t go far past the stereotype”. I guess you learned that when you were poolside with Matt Holliday and Bobby Abreu.
by Bloggy on Aug 3, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Comments by players like Bonds, who said that Boston is a “flea market of racism”, makes me think they don’t go far past the stereotypes.
by Gnick on Aug 3, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow. Bonds. SERIOUSLY.
Good example. rolls eyes
by Bloggy on Aug 3, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So because of Bonds’ steroid controversy he loses credibility in terms of racial issues?
by Gnick on Aug 3, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Aug 3, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So he’s imagining a racial issue in Boston that actually isn’t present because he’s a belligerent ass?
That opinion of him obviously comes from his actions in regards to his steroids controversy.
by Gnick on Aug 3, 2009 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
He really was an ass before steroids too.
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Aug 3, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Explain
What is your definition of “obviously”?
How do things become obvious to you? Are you one of the free agents that I am in close contact with? Is that why it is so obvious to you that my opinion of him is due to his actions in regards to his steroids controversy?
by Bloggy on Aug 3, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bonds
Because although he was kind of an asshole before the steroids stuff, that is where 90% of the media regarding him comes from. And thus that is where people’s opinions of him comes from. Did you read Game of Shadows? It actually makes you feel sort of sympathetic for him.
by Gnick on Aug 4, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okee dokey
Well, you only have to be “kind of an asshole” to label a place a flea market for racism based on…what? All the years that he spent in Pittsburgh? Or Frisco?
by Bloggy on Aug 4, 2009 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was actually Bill Russell who called Boston a “flea market of racism”, Bonds was quoting him.
by Gnick on Aug 4, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From Wikipedia
“As a consequence, Russell was extremely sensitive to all racial prejudice: according to [John] Taylor [author of The Rivalry: Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and the Golden Age of Basketball.], he often imagined insults even if none existed.”
In other words: Whatever.
by Bloggy on Aug 4, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The biggest star of the era in a certain city calls that city racist, and you say “whatever” because sometimes he imagined racism that wasn’t there.
I’m sure he imagined the time his neighbors banded together to petition his move into a neighborhood, or the time people broke into his house, destroyed his stuff, and wrote racist stuff on his walls.
by Gnick on Aug 4, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bill Russell retired in 1969.
The whole @#$%ing country was racist in ‘69. What I’m saying, is that someone who was uber-sensitive to racism will make the jump to “flea market of racism” quite quickly and a belligerent ass (Bonds) will quickly quote him.
I could give a crap if he’s the “biggest star of the era of a certain city” or the @#$%ing tooth fairy.
Just cuz he said it doesn’t make it a universal truth, and the fact that it originated from the 60s doesn’t make it particularly relevant.
Same article:
“On December 2, 2008, Boston Mayor Thomas Menino and The Mayor’s Office of New Bostonians awarded Russell the 2008 We Are Boston Leadership Awards. Russell, who according to the mayor flew a “red-eye flight” to be there, attended the annual event with his daughter. He was visibly grateful and shared anecdotes of racial bigotry when he first came to Boston as a player and bought a home in Reading, Massachusetts. Russell congratulated the mayor on wanting to be a “mayor for all of Boston” and commented that it was a city that truly changed."
by Bloggy on Aug 4, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So hold on.
I have been kind of understanding of your claims that the sports media treats black and white athletes differently. However, now you seem to be claiming that Boston is unique in this regard. Do you think Boston is worse than other places in terms of racism? Do you think Barry Bonds is correct (if he actually said that) Boston is “a flea market of racism”? I find all of that very hard to believe. We have had so many popular black athletes that I don’t know how it would be possible for a knowledgable person to think Boston is more racist than anywhere else.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Aug 4, 2009 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It depends
On where “anywhere else” is. In terms of treatment of professional athletes, it’s probably near the bottom, in terms of overall history of racism, it’s probably near the top. The top meaning the more racism.
by Gnick on Aug 4, 2009 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you are
saying Boston ranks near the top of American cities when it comes to racism?? Really?
Ian Browne aspires to be like me.
by jkeough on Aug 4, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Not all racism was in the South and before 1967. Boston had the worst anti-busing riots, some of the worst anti-segregation riots, the Charles Stuart case, not to mention countless other lesser incidents.
by Gnick on Aug 4, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You need
to read more.
Ian Browne aspires to be like me.
by jkeough on Aug 4, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah
Like what? Give me an example of something I need to read.
by Gnick on Aug 4, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The
back of a shampoo bottle to start. Anything other than the crap you have been reading which is all based on the past and not the current, actual composition of this city.
Ian Browne aspires to be like me.
by jkeough on Aug 4, 2009 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
Man I love that tuna casserole.
by Bloggy on Aug 4, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hilarious
What a great sense of humor you have. Comedic timing, a satirical touch, what don’t you have? I mean a shampoo bottle, brilliant. I guess I should stop reading stuff like this:
http://www.weeklydig.com/news-opinions/news-us/200801/boston-racist-city
http://racism.suite101.com/article.cfm/justin_barretts_racist_comments_not_unnoticed
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-309342
Or any of the famous Harvard Civil Rights Report.
No, I should just stick to what jkeough thinks I should read, because everyone knows racism was a fad that died out in the late-60s. I think it went out about the same time the pet rock did.
by Gnick on Aug 5, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From
the first article you posted
“Flynn admits that the national memory of the 1974 busing crisis is most likely what inspired Matthews’ comments. Images of Boston’s intolerance — such as the iconic photograph of white protesters trying to impale a black lawyer with an American flag in City Hall Plaza — still burn in the national memory”
So the majority of people are retarded and remember things from 1974 and apply it to current opinions.
From the 2nd article, you are sourcing the idiot who sent an email and we are supposed to take that guy as the proof Boston is racist? How about the fact that the Mayor and Comissioner got rid of him in 4 days? And that his union did not fight it?
And the third article you referenced used a Wesley Snipes movie to craft an argument.
Now why I still think Passenger 51 is an underrated movie, is Wes the best actor to use to craft a race argument upon?
Seriously dude. I will never agree with you because your opinion is not based in fact.
Ian Browne aspires to be like me.
by jkeough on Aug 5, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First article
Proved my point. People remember sensationalistic stuff, like the busing riots, and apply it to stuff today. Meaning any opinions having to do with race is incredibly hard to change.
by Gnick on Aug 5, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.counterpunch.org/zirin06232004.html
There’s the quote, along with a pretty good article.
by Gnick on Aug 4, 2009 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correction
Bonds was actually just quoting Bill Russell by calling Boston a “flea market of racism”. Anyway, everyone should read that whole article.
by Gnick on Aug 4, 2009 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No..
Boston, like any big American city has its own problems of different ethnicities and their hang up all living in a densely populated area, besides some usual heavy handness of the police, combine with quasi corporate structure of organized crime.
I would probably say that a city is having serious racial problems at this moment is Cincinnati, OH. A combination of serious urban poverty and de facto segregation in the Over the Rhine neighborhood.
The Red Sox has had the stigma of the management at one time, the Yawkeys, were bigots, (especially Tom Yawkey) and the fans were/are more lily white than others. Many African American ball players didn’t want to play in Boston, or if they had a no trade clause, they would veto a trade there.. Bonds’s comments are kind of stereotypical response that the Red Sox wasn’t the greatest place to play for African American players.
Players like Milton Bradley and Gary Sheffield, who tend to shout racism very quickly, wouldn’t have a fun time in Boston, (I don’t think they would have much fun anywhere) but they probably be twice as miserable in Boston, which is saying much, given Bradley’s antics with the Indians, Dodgers and A’s.
Mo Vaughn got the Boston Media and Manic treatment during his stay here, for example. I am not saying it is racist what happened to Mo Vaughn, but for an African American, where they are 100% of the time aware of their racial identity, it is difficult not to see something like that.
The Cubs have a bit of the same problem as the Sox. The Cubs are looked upon the North Side’s team, with Yuppie Wrigleyville, the beer garden known as Wrigley Field, and half or rural Illinois and Iowa rooting for the Cubs. I doubt you will see many South Siders and many African Americans wearing Cubs hats.
by superferret on Aug 4, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't
haveanything to do with the original point that Jason Bay is getting a pass because he is white. We are saying that is ridiculous.
Ian Browne aspires to be like me.
by jkeough on Aug 4, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bay
Is getting a pass because he’s a “hustle” player, and is “gritty”, two attributes that much more readily are applied to white players.
by Gnick on Aug 4, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are nootz.
You honestly think that white players are thought to hustle more than non-white players.
To quote Sean Connery offa SNL’s Celebrity Jeopardy:
“Boy, I think you might be legally retarded.”
Man I love that tuna casserole.
by Bloggy on Aug 4, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes
I think that because they are. And I’m not the only one.
Also I find it ironic that you are now insulting my intelligence yet unless you went to Harvard, Princeton, or Yale, I’m going to a better college.
by Gnick on Aug 5, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the
final stroke in the useless category.
“NAH, NAH, NAH I”M GOING TO A BETTER COLLEGE" “WAAAAH, SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH ME” “WAAAAAAAAAAAH”
Ian Browne aspires to be like me.
by jkeough on Aug 5, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
Because that’s what I said. It’s not like someone insulted my intelligence and I then defended it in a completely logical manner. No, it’s nothing like that at all.
by Gnick on Aug 5, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why colleges aren't the best way of comparing intelligence:
Both Bush and Obama went to Harvard, but Bush went to Yale as well. And which one is generally regarded as the more intelligent of the two?
@bs_uf15bosox9be The Original Gameday; Learn to use SB Nation
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 5, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taking the short bus to college
Looks like someone got himself a whole lotta book learnin’ and not a whole lotta life experience.
Don’t worry, little shaver. It’ll come.
Man I love that tuna casserole.
by Bloggy on Aug 5, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah you obviously know my life experience.
by Gnick on Aug 5, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you're 19 and going to an Ivy League School
If you’ve come up from the streets battling racism to get there, I look forward to the movie starring Morgan Freeman and Jeff Bridges.
But you sound like a well-read, reasonably articulate kid who hasn’t been able to fully apply logic and context to what he’s read yet.
Man I love that tuna casserole.
by Bloggy on Aug 5, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We all loved Mo Vaughn, from what I remember. What treatment did he get?
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Aug 4, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In no way am I saying that non-white players cannot be loved by Boston fans. What I am saying is the media and to an extent the fans of all the entire country can discount poor performance due to effort and “grit”. And almost always, the players being let off the hook are white.
I’ve seen hundreds of articles written about how tough guys like Erstad, Pedroia, and Eckstein are, but I rarely see that type of thing written about Crawford or Figgins.
In regards to Boston specifically, yes, it has a huge history of racism. The busing riots, the Charles Stuart case, there has been a huge amount of racism here. In fact, Larry Lucchino himself said the team has “an undeniable legacy of racial intolerance.”
by Gnick on Jul 30, 2009 3:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In the
1970’s. It is 2009. Only people like you still see it that way. As far as hustle & grit, Carl Crawford is described in every game he plays as the “hustling outfielder of the Tampa Bay Rays” What about Kirby Puckett’s grit or Torrii Hunter’s Hustle?
How about how big a star Dontrelle Willis was?
How about all of the Dominican Players? Miguel Tejada was a very coveted player by Sox Nation for years until he started to suck with Baltimore and everyone found out he was 65 years old.
You make no sense and base your arguments on stuff that happenned 20 years ago+ You are just making it up. Today regardless of race stars here are universally adored. Thanks to Jim Ed. Fact.
Even Ken Girffey Jr said he regretted not coming to Boston. Barry Bonds backed off after Rodent Harrison told him he was wrong.
Finally you rarely see it because you actively look for things to enhance your argument. I can pay any scientist $$ and he will find the results I want and then I can say “the results of recent study find that” BLAH BLAH BLAH. Racism does exsist but mostly for older genarations. Stil stuck in the past? Pull the race card, get some attention.
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Jul 30, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you fucking kidding?
“Racism does exist but mostly for older generations”. Are you absolutely insane? Go look at the state allocation of funding to schools in black districts as compared to white districts, look at compensation discrepancies, look at the judicial system, look at how much more likely a black man is to get pulled over than a white man. If you think racism isn’t alive and well then you need to open your eyes.
by Gnick on Jul 30, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See How Much
You made my point. Younger kids don’t participate in racism as much as your generation. The older folks are making decisions to not fund or fund. To pull over innocent people or not. To make terrible judicial decisions. Racism will go away when you all are in the old folks home.
I grew up in an all black neighborhood in Boston and I didn’t realize it until a 54 year old teacher told me, “you know you are the only white kid on Blue Hill Ave right?” Didn’t care then, don;t care now. Race isn’t important to me because “race” in and of itself is made up.
Humanity is only one race. Except for people like you who look for reasons to bring it up.
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Jul 30, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right so I’m continuing racism by bringing it up in a respectful way. I guess the better solution would be to just ignore it, then it would just all go away.
by Gnick on Jul 30, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody says ignore it
just bring it up when it makes sense.
And see how racist we are when Papi gets a cakewalk through roid anger here.
Fact. When he wins the first Yankee game with a 3-3 2HR 2BB 4R 5RBI night the entire New England region will forget about steroids. Until Mike Felger brings it up. Every day for the rest of his life, because he guessed this one right. Skinny loser.
How the hell did he end up with ??? Seriously.
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Jul 31, 2009 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, this Boston. We don’t get “hundreds of articles” about Erstad, Eckstein, Crawford, or Figgins. But if we did, this being a fan base that understands statistics better than most, we’d be talking about Erstad and Figgins being overrated and Eckstein being way past his use-by date, and worshiping Crawford like the greatest leftfielder to patrol the Monster since Yaz. Except we might move him to right to cover more ground.
Yeah, there’s a long history of racism in Boston. But it’s not what’s going on in this case.
by RSNexile on Jul 30, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just ask yourself honestly. Did Manny play his as hard as he could during his last year or two with the Sox? Now ask yourself honestly, do you think Bay is trying as hard as he can to pull himself from this slump? My answers are NO and Yes absolutely I think he is.
The answer isn’t race, the answer is that Boston fans appreciate effort. The sort of effort that Bay shows every night. Manny didn’t get a pass at the end of his time in Boston because it was hard to appreciate his lack of effort, if you were cheering his attitude through 2008 then your head needs to be looked at.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jul 30, 2009 6:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Manny vs. Bay
Obviously Bay plays harder than Manny, but really, all that matters is on-field results. Even given Manny’s lack of effort he did better in 2008 than Bay is doing now. Plus it’s not like Manny didn’t try at all, by all accounts he was a huge fitness and preparation freak.
by Gnick on Jul 31, 2009 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't
disagree that Manny worked hard when he wanted tobut he clearly took games off. Not only that he clearly took At bats off, seemingly intentionally. I am not giving Bay a pass but when he struck out the other night he looked upset with himself and when Manny struck out the same night he gave the thumbs up sign to the crowd. Just a different manner of attitude. Part of the reason why Manny was and is so good is his ability to forget the last at-bat. But combined with his antics last year people had enough. It seems like you want to crucify Bay because he currently sucks. We all know he currently sucks. He just isn’t sucking while actign like a lunatic, he is sucking while trying. So we give this kind of sucking a break. Same break we gave to Ortiz earlier this year. When you suck and try you get a medium pass while we explore trade options for you. Whne you suck and are “manny being Manny” we fawn over you until you push down an old dude and fight with the Youk.
BTW, don’t think that didn’t do part to get rid of Manny, people really really like Youk, including all of the Pink hats. All of them. And his funny beard.
The real culmination was the at-bat against Mariano where Manny took three called strikes at the end of a MFY game lst year towards the end of June or mid-July on national tv with a chance to win or tie it. That was the last straw.
I still miss that foolish dreaded right handed monster.
Bastard.
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Jul 31, 2009 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree, on field results are important and no one will argue that Manny was more productive than Bay. However other things are important in this game, like how a player represents the team and the city. Bay represents the team and city very well, he tries and has heart. The episode mentioned above about his AB against Mariano Rivera is a great example, how embarassing was that? 1-2-3 Out! He caused fights, just bad for the team.
Look at Terrell Owens, he goes from team to team disrupting their routine. He took the Eagles to the Superbowl and then caused off the field issues that really affected the team. Then he went to Dallas and had issues on that team that I believe really changed the outcome of the games. How a player acts off the field is important and does have in an impact on on-field results.
He can hit all the home runs he wants but if he gets in fights with team personel and other team leaders it will start to affect the on-field product. Did you want Youk going up to bat without anything other than hitting that sucker over the fence going through his mind? Manny had to go, it had been quite obvious to nearly everyone that it was in the best interest of the team.
Also Bay was NEVER asked to be Manny and Bay has NEVER been Manny. We knew that when we got him. If you expected Bay to put up a .320/.415/.610 line like Manny would then you really didn’t do your research when we got him. Bay has never been that kind of hitter, he’s a good hitter, but not future HOFer good. So we give him a pass, not because he is white but because we see him struggle, we see him try and we don’t have our expectations set way too high like you do because we know he isn’t Manny and shouldn’t be held to the same standard that we expected from Manny.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jul 31, 2009 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not that I necessarily expected Bay to put up Manny’s 2002-2007 numbers, it’s just that we needed/need a big bat in the middle of the lineup.
I don’t really see the T.O. analogy as a great one, because T.O.’s skills were clearly deteriorating while his was being a distraction for the Cowboys.
by Gnick on Aug 2, 2009 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Manny got rid of Manny
I get tired when people defend someone who no deserve the defense. Manny do everything so no other choice for team to make. If Manny stay, it show that a spoiled brat actually run team. No player who act like that deserve to play. It not important for Jason Bay to replace Manny. Jason work very hard and do great job. It only important that Jason give 100%. I think Jason super in other ways. He much better role model than Manny ever was. And I no like the race issue added. He not leave team because of color. He leave because he no follow the rules. It not depend on color when a man act like a child. It time for Manny to grow up. It also time for Gnick to write something not just to make people angry. Maybe another job fit him. Sound like color problem in his own mind.
by Chantal L on Jul 30, 2009 10:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ha.
Interesting to read the opinions from outside the country (I assuming, and I apologize if I’m wrong), esp. about Boston’s race issues.
Completely agree with you.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you serious Chantal L?
I’ve been posting on this blog for like three years, and this is the first time I’ve really ever said anything to get such a fiery discussion going. And you haven’t said anything to disprove my claims.
by Gnick on Jul 31, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Point
I not try to disprove your claims. Your mind all made up. It not open. But just because you have last word, not make you right. Just last.
by Chantal L on Jul 31, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's absolutely not true
If you make good points maybe I will change my mind, or at least further consider a different point of view. Plus that’s what debate is: discussing different points of view using factual evidence.
by Gnick on Aug 2, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So...
I think what Gnick is trying to say is that the media tends to overemphasize certain attributes of athletes depending on race. For blacks (or hispanics), “gifted athlete” or “pure athlete” is usually the term that is used. For white athletes, it is words like “gritty” “full of hustle (or energy)” or “gives it everything he has.” I think this is true at times. However, I think it happens less and less. Jacoby Ellsbury is usually not talked about for his hustle; it is his athleticism that is made the issue. Same with Grady Sizemore and many other white players. However, players that look like Dustin Pedroia (short, balding, etc.) are certainly described in ways based mostly on appearance. But being white is not the only part of the appearance that seems to matter. It is also body type, facial hair and many other attributes. Just look at football; black players are very often differentiated as to sho hustles and not, even though they are almost all black.
Gnick, I think the mistake you made was bringing this up in response to Manny. He was loved in Boston for many, many years. Even when he repeatedly asked for trades, assaulted an employee and clearly did not try his hardest at all times. The relationship fans had with Manny was more complicated than his heritage. It simply is not strong evidence for your point. Carlos Beltran on the other hand…
And everyone else, stop trying to claim that racism does not exist. It does. And it exists in sports media.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jul 31, 2009 2:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, thank you.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 31, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I said it before here but I will say it again.
Manny being Manny was cute until David Ortiz came back from the DL. The front office had to find a way to make him the villian … so all of the Manny being Manny stories that were cute before were spun differently by the front office.
Red Sox nation bought it hook line and sinker. Should have traded Ortiz and kept Manny to DH as Manny has many more years of good hitting in front of him than Ortiz does. Now if you acquire Adrian Gonzalez a left 1b power bat. You would still have Manny in the lineup to protect him.
If they do acquire Gonzalez … Bays’ stats should increase as teams will pitch more to Bay rather than Gonzalez.
by PewterPirate55 on Jul 31, 2009 10:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nobody is pitching around Jason Bay now
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because he isn't Manny
He won’t put up the numbers Manny ever put up.
When Manny and Ortiz batted in the lineup you had to pick your poision. The Red Sox don’t have that in their Lineup right now.
As much as I hate the Yankees they do with Tex and A-Rod batting back to back in their order.
Gonzalez and Manny batting back to back in that order would give you roughly the same effect as Papi and Ortiz.
by PewterPirate55 on Jul 31, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We know, Bay's no where near the player that Manny was.
I’m not sure how you can say the FO “spun” the stories – he wasn’t running out grounders, was making dumb plays in the OF, wasn’t swinging or playing when he didn’t want to, etc. That, combined with the stuff about fighting with a team employee and Youk, really pushed most Sox fans over the edge. We put up with him b/c he was so great, but eventually we realized he wasn’t worth it.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 31, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Manny wanted out..
He was listening to Iago, I mean Scott Boras, that his value would go up if he played as a rental for three months. However, it was just the opposite, Teams in these tight economic times, saw 24 + 1 roster, and a guy who wasn’t exactly going to be PR friendly if he was given $25 million a year.
Bay isn’t Manny, but he helped get the Sox to the ALCS.
The Sox FO made the best out of a bad situation. Any team would love Manny’s stats, but not the clubhouse headaches, and manic behavior.
by superferret on Aug 1, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crazy
To think that Jason Bay has not adequetly replaced Manny Ramirez is preposterous. Bay plays like he wants to be here, unlike Manny. Bay runs out ground balls, unlike Manny. Bay makes the easy can of corn, well, an easy play. Unlike Manny…
Manny was a cancer and I for one am glad he is gone.
"Hi, I'm Bob Geren, I need to be fired today!"
by slkierley on Jul 31, 2009 3:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Absurd.
We won 2 WS with Manny. He is a much, much better player than Jason Bay.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jul 31, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure that was the best way to prove your point, BTLove, but I agree.
Manny is/was a HoF (depends on the BBWAA’s view of his PED issues), and Bay’s likely not.
That said, if you knew what Bay was capable of, you didn’t expect him to fully replace Manny.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 31, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trot Nixon
replace “Bay” with “Trot Nixon” above and you are still telling the truth.
Do you really think Trot was as good as Manny because he had a “good attitude”?
And, FWIW, Bay has terrible fielding range.
by RickD on Aug 1, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Way
I would just like to point out that there are plenty of team who would love someone hitting 250 with 20+ HR’s and 70+ RBI’s at the end of July. While he may not be replicating what one of the greatest hitters in baseball is doing, he is also keeping his mouth shut, not in steroid reports, and while he may play bad defense, at least he shows some hustle.
by MistahFAB on Jul 31, 2009 4:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's what I mean
You said “while he may play bad defense, at least he shows some hustle”. Why do we care if he’s hustling? He’s playing bad defense and hurting the team by doing so, this is a major strike against him regardless of his “hustle”.
by Gnick on Aug 2, 2009 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it is clear
Manny Ramirez is one of the best right-handed power hitters ever. Jason Bay is not and will never be. If he were a good fielder, that would compensate somewhat, but apparently he’s not even a very good fielder.
That’s part of why I was so upset last year at people minimizing Manny’s talent. Manny is one of the rare hitters who has no weaknesses, who can hit any pitcher. The only other ones in recent years have been Bonds and Pujols. (ARod, by contrast, is an easy out for a good pitcher in a pressure situation.)
by RickD on Aug 1, 2009 4:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
GIDP's are bailing Buch out.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Aug 2, 2009 2:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ha. thought I was in the game thread. so nevermind.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Aug 2, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
