Phillies trade for Cliff Lee; One less team in for Roy Halladay
by Randy Booth on Jul 29, 2009 2:35 PM EDT
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PrintThe Philadelphia Phillies traded for pitcher Cliff Lee from the Indians today:
The Philadelphia Phillies seriously bolstered their chances of repeating as World Series champions by outbidding several teams for reigning American League Cy Young award winner Cliff Lee(notes) of the Cleveland Indians, according to baseball sources.
The Phillies also received left fielder Ben Francisco(notes), and in return, the Indians netted a strong group of prospects: Class A right-handed pitcher Jason Knapp, Class AAA right-handed pitcher Carlos Carrasco(notes), shortstop Jason Donald(notes) and catcher Lou Marson(notes).
It's not huge news for Red Sox fans, but it does mean one less team is in the race for Blue Jays' ace Roy Halladay. If the Sox are serious contenders for Halladay, then the chance they land the All-Star is quite good with the Phillies out of the picture now. There aren't too many teams out there that can now compete with the Red Sox when it comes to dealing minor league talent.
So where does this leave the Red Sox?
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i learned my lesson last offseason
when it comes to reports saying that the sox are the front runner for a big name (teixeira). i guarantee you the yankees are in on it as well. at this point i think he can only go the red sox or yankees. lets just all hope that he stays in toronto.
But
This involves prospects which the Yankees are short on and Halladay has no preference for NY like Tex
Halladay has said he would accept a trade to NY
And technically the Yankees have the prospects to make it work, including Joba, Hughes, Montero, and a lesser prospect or two.
The problem is that they don’t really have any A prospects if they give up those guys (except maybe Jackson, but he’s barely an A at this point)
by South Coast Ghost on Jul 29, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Sadly...
If the Yankees really wanted Halladay they could get him, but it wouldn’t be because of who they’d give up. If they did with Toronto what Boston did with Florida during the Beckett trade and eat Vernon Wells’ contract the way the Red Sox took Lowell has a throw in they could probably get Halladay on the cheap.
by sonicdeathmonkey on Jul 30, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Don’t forget how we were the front runners for Santana for like two months.
by Gnick on Jul 29, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Great move for the Phillies. I think this does put us as the front runners for Halladay as much as I don’t want us to trade for him. Hopefully though it will drive down the price a bit. If he HAS to make a trade I’d rather us give up a little more and get AGonz.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Yes it gives us a better chance at Halladay,
But equally important, is our chance to acquire Victor Martinez. It is clear now that the Indians are in a ‘sell now’ mode. I think we need a bat more than an arm, and Martinez would be cheaper in terms of prospects than Halladay.
It doesn’t make much sense to trade for Matinez right after acquiring Laroche, as that leaves us with 5 corner IF / DH players. This is pure speculation but what if a three team deal is in the works in which we trade prospects and Laroche/Lowell and get Martinez in return
so people think V-Mart would be at 1B and not catcher?
just asking I always assumed V-Mart would platoon at DH, C and 1B?
Then you have 3 catchers on the roster.
Not very efficient either. And he’s not much better than Tek when he’s having to focus on game calling.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Which contender would need LaRoche though?
He’s only signed through the end of the year, so why would Cleveland want him? They’re not contending, and they have guys like Marte and Laporta to play 1B instead.
by South Coast Ghost on Jul 29, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
3 team deal = someone else gets The Rock or Lowell.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
This lowers the price of Halladay. New front runner? The Phillies.
They’re not desperate anymore and Toronto has less leverage. Toronto still won’t want him in the division, and the Phillies still have all the prospects Toronto wanted. Why wouldn’t they go for both?
still dont get the division argument
the jays arent going to win in the next 1 1/2 years anyway so why does it matter? After that time he maybe in the division anyway. the Sox have much more to lose facing “their” young prospects for years to come. As the Toronto GM i would just look for the best package
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 29, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Halladay is the face of the franchise
Facing him 4-5 times a year is a reminder that they couldn’t hold onto him. Here’s a local view.
Also, remember, Ricciardi wants to keep his job. He has to justify why he just moved his best and post popular player to one of the Jays’ two most hated franchises. That’s why he’ll ask for more from the Sox or MFY.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 30, 2009 7:16 AM EDT up reply actions
This move also makes V. Martinez's move assured
Cleveland is done, they are going to sell off V-Mart.
Possibly at a lesser price, good for the Red Sox. Also, watch Theo work his magic now. He now has the best offer on the table with Haladay, with only the Angels and Dodgers as legitimate competition, both teams do not have the prospects to match Boston.
Theo has put out that he will trade Buchholz, which gets the attention of Cleveland and San Diego. Theo’s move, the Buchholz offer, made Philly either put up Drabek or move on to someone else. Now that the deal is done, Theo has complete control of his primary target, which I am guessing was V-Mart or AG all along.
My guess is that Haladay or V-Mart are on the Red Sox by Friday and there is a good chance the price for both just dropped down to just Clay Buchholz or a package of players like Bowden and Masterson without Buchholz.
STOP THE VMART INSANITY!
Haven’t we been over this like 100 times already?
a)VMart does not play catcher much anymore. When he does-his offense suffers. Do you want a catcher whose OPS is 70 points below Teks? Because that is what you will get.
b)Lowell has a 915 OPS vs LHP/La Roche has a 840 OPS against RHP. So…why not use Lowell/La Roche for L/R with Youk? How is that significantly worse than VMart even if you remove his hitting splits as a catcher?
c)VMart is 30 and has had injuries.
Guys, do you even look at the statistics? The worst part about the Sox losing is not the losing it is that it brings the nuts out of the woodwork!
by Buzzy on Jul 29, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
+1
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
clap.....clap....clap..clap.clap!
We are not normal. We are legends.
by NittanyAlum02 on Jul 29, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
@#$% YES.
I am only hoping that Theo is looking at the statistics. There is no upside to this, and I want no part of it.
Considering this was the team that employed Bill James, I would assume he looks at stats.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Agree completely
Rec’d.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 29, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
im with you on this
vmart would be a horrible trade
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 29, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
OK --- the stats dont support the Martinez trade
There is no need to call people “nuts” because they think he might be a fit somehow.
We are ‘living in a society" , this isn’t Pinstripe Alley.
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
Call it
whatever you like-whenever the Sox lose, masses of people come out and post (often with stark confrontational vigor) moves that would be insanely detrimental to the team. It is not that I worry Theo might be reading all of our rants, but it is irritating nonetheless.
wow, you just dont give it up.
sorry Buzzy, but its just debate. if it hurts your feelings well I cannot help that.
I have no problem
with debate, but that does not mean that certain arguments are not irritating. It does not hurt my feelings. I am sure I post irritatingly wrong things all the time. Why are you hurt? What is the big deal-did I insult you? If so, I am sorry. I should have said “this argument” is nuts, not that “you” are nuts.
You know you guys are correct. See, i was under the assumption people wanted to debate the Red Sox, but you guys seem more inclined to just pat each other on the backs for statistics analysis.
My apologies. This is personal to you guys, so ill back away and say best of luck for the season.
I still think Haladay would be a nice addition to the Red Sox rotation and ill leave it at that.
No one believes Halladay isn't a great pitcher or wouldn't make the team better
What we are debating is cost and the long-term implications of getting him. What’s wrong with that?
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 29, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I get that: "debating long term implications" and what Buzzy is saying
I do & had Epstein called me and said " hey I am gonn pay Drew X for X numbers of years" I probably would have said : “ARE YOU NUTS?! THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS? OUTLANDISH!! RIDICULOUSLY NONSENSICAL!!” using all the “stark confrontational vigor” I could muster.
But I’d be basing that on a less than indepth analysis of stats and moreso on what I’ve seen over the years. I get it defense wins games, offense drawas a crowd but if the Sox were more prudent in the “long term implications” of areas like Drew ( & maybe even Renteria,) they’d be able to fudge a bit more when a potential deal for someone like Halladay comes along. So now it seems going after Halladay complicates things that were complicated by , well- management.
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
MassGal
In my mind you are missing the point. Drew and Renteria were FAs. Bad FA signings are bad for your team, but bad trades are absolute poison. Why? If a player that you signed is bad, you lose money (see, Lugo, Julio J), if a trade is bad you lose good prospects. Good prospects that are young, have their best years ahead of them for your team, and are cheap-allowing you to sign your players and others long term. Papelbon, Lester, Ellsbury, Youkilis, Pedroia, Bard, Masterson, DelCarmen are those guys.
Secondly, the Drew signing was not really a bad signing. He has been pretty good, if somewhat dissapointing. he playes good D, has played fantastically in the playoffs, and had a great year for us last year. He is 14 Million, it is not so bad. Renteria is a different story. In large part the tragedy of Edgar is that we lost the draft pick that became Colby Rasmus. It comes back again to good young players.
As for Halladay, he is in fact my favorite pitcher in baseball. I love the guy. I love guys who wear tee shirts that say “Bullpens are for P****s.” But it really will take the farm to get him, and the odds say we will be paying a lot for his services that will be really good years for only a handful of years. He will sure help out in the short term, but he alone cannot fix crappy pen leaks, spotty hitting or the like. A trade like the one the Phillies made makes sense-they kept the 4 guys they value most in their farm system. We, trading for a better guy still under contract in our own division will not afford us the luxury.
by Buzzy on Jul 29, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you didn't rec him.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
Musta missed the button.
My bad, Buzzy. Fixed now.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Rec away- I am not missing your point, I have a different view
Money IS money. A loss is a loss.Losing money, losing prospects still/both hurt the team in the long run.
You don’t know how the prospects will turn out— but you can feel the loss of $$. It’s palpable. I do not agree about Drew- defense is a dime a dozen; Crisp played great D and couldn’t hit a lick. Picking the few bright spots in Drew’s career is no different that what our mystery guest ( Julio Lugo) is doing on another thread.
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
I agree
that money lost is bad. But a bad trade is money lost+prospects lost. Isn’t that worse? And as for Drew, you are simply wrong. Defense is NOT a dime a dozen. Run prevention is as important as offense. Lets look at it by measurable numbers. For example last year Drew had a wOBA of .400 and a UZR/150 0f 12.9. Manny Ramirez for the Sox last year had an aggregate wOBA of .432 and a UZR/150 -28.3. With positional adjustment for LF vs. RF, this make Drew a player that is at least as valuable as Manny, perhaps more. See-he prevents far more runs scoring on defense, and still contributes a fair fraction on offense. These things are facts-they are what took the Rays to the WS last year, and are a large contributor to why the Yankees are the best team in the AL right now. You may not watch the game this way, and it may not be sexy, but you can’t arue agains the numbers-they don’t lie so it is illogical to argue against it. Comparing Drew to Coco or Lugo makes no sense-it would just make more sense to say you don’t like Drew than to try to argue that he is a failure of a player.
dude
you lost me at : “You may not watch the game this way, and it may not be sexy, but you can’t arue agains the numbers-they don’t lie so it is illogical to argue against it.” Please don’t tell me what I can & can not argue against. Run all the hypos and possible chances you want to- they are just that hypos! There are many factors that took the Rays to the WS . The teams with the best defense don’t always win, teams with the best runs diff don’t always win, etc.
You get the Drew/Lugo comparison- not positional at all —think outside a bit-it is separating the good stuff from the junk. Yeah, I do know that errors cost games….
This isn’t like or dislike : I don’t think Drew was worth his K. I don’t think Lugo was worth his K. Do I LIKE them? Pffft, please. Yeah I like them, maybe I will ask them to the prom or to go steady. Get real. Defensive players are indeed a dime a dozen, many teams carry weak sticks bc of their defense.
You are making my point for me. I am saying a loss is a loss. but you are saying " oh no,I mean the OTHER kinda loss"
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
What?
You make no sense, so this will be the last time. Argue all you wan’t but don’t act like there are just views and not right and wrong views. First of all, you clearly don’t even understand how defense is measured, since you talk about errors. Second of all, I did not say that comparing Drew to Coco or Lugo made no sense because of the position, I said so because of the fact that Drew is a combination of a good defensive player and a decent to good offensive player. Get it? Coco was a poor offensive player and Lugo a poor defensive one. Even this year, Drew has a wOBA of 354-not bad at all. If it is not about like or dislike (the only viewpoint that can coexist with the objective facts) then it just proves you don’t understand baseball. And don’t tell me I am making your point for you-you don’t even understand my point.
take your ball & ego & go home
thanks for explaining baseball to me
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
I'm going to try to say this nicely, MassGal.
Buzzy’s right here – defense is important. Finding a player who can save you runs is just as valuable as finding a player who will score runs.
Buzzy, it’s worth mentioning that MassGal doesn’t buy into stats and trying to perfect them.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
you don't have to be nice
or tell anyone what I don’t buy into. Metrics , metrics, metrics. Whatever. Tell me a gazillion times how certain stats should be thrown out in light of metrics, fan graphs, etc. I say : yawn. A hypo is just that a hypo.
Look, I never said errors were the be all end all defensive stat & I never said defense wasn’t important.
This series was basically me saying overpriced FA signing, or bad trade, both = a loss; which led to my statement that Drew isn’t worth his K ( op says " not really a bad signing") & admits both are bad for the team – sorta) which is what I am saying. I stand by that. That is my opinion.
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
When did Theo offer Buchholz?
The only reports came from Cafardo and Edes, not exactly credible sources. The Phils got Lee without trading Drabek. Why would the Sox then move Buchholz?
Bowden doesn’t seem to have much value, and Masterson is a spot starter/long-reliever. Neither will net Halladay. And VMart doesn’t fit on the current Sox roster—unless Boston moves LaRoche or Lowell (which is unlikely). Regarding Halladay, I don’t think the price dropped. Ricciardi has said he’d want more from an AL East team. Why would he lower his price? Halladay is the face of the franchise.
The Sox are interested in Gonzalez. But he won’t be moved this season, if at all.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 29, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Bc
Haladay’s price is cut in half 1 sec after 4pm Friday and Toronto is not winning in 2010, not with the Yankees, Red Sox, Tampa Bay and Baltimore who has better and young talent coming up.
So, just like San Diego they can either hold onto a player who does nothing for their team now or make a deal and revamp their system… and just like San Diego again the Red Sox match up. So your argument is the Jays sit on Haladay when financially they really cant and take the two picks ? Seems like a waste if the Red Sox really did offer Buchholz.
Why should the Sox move Buchholz? Maybe bc he gave up 9 hits, threw 107 pitches, at home with no pressure to one of the worst teams in baseball.
The question isn't should they move Buchholz, it's have they offered Buchholz
I’m not interested in how many hits Buchholz gave up last night. As a team, the Sox gave up 21 hits. Paps gave up 3 in 1 inning; Oki gave up 3 in 0.2 IP; and MDC gave up 3 in 1.2 IP. Should we trade all of them too? By WHIP (baserunners allowed), here’s how last night’s Sox pitchers stack up: Bard (1.49), MDC (1.80), Buchholz (1.94), RamRam (2.00), Saito (3.00), Paps (4.00). Perhaps our entire staff sucks, or maybe the strike zone was extremely small last night.
I don’t understand your hatred for Buchholz. Sure, he has struggled. But the start of his major league career is pretty similar to Lester’s stats-wise. If the Sox rate Buchholz highly—and they do—why would last night’s start skew their thinking? By Dice-K standards, Buchholz was pretty good last night.
The Jays are in a bind. They probably won’t get what they want for Halladay. However, you never answered my question: When did Theo offer Buchholz? Aside from Edes and Cafardo—two extremely unreliable sources—no reports have mentioned the Sox offering Buchholz. And, if Buchholz sucks so badly, why does every team ask for him when negotiating with Boston?
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 29, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope
That the Sox get Halladay. Vmart seems like a dead end and a waste of prospects. He can’t catch for long and we have a lot of good 1st basemen like Youk, Anderson, and Laroache who is hitting. And then there is Ortiz at DH
I agree
for several reasons I posted on another thread. I will post them again:
a)Same WAR over last 2 years
b)Younger
c)Cheaper in cost and prospects
d)People are overrating Halladay. He is great-but pitches in a pitcher’s park with a great defense behind him. He has not had a year like this (in terms of stats that matter) for 5 years. This is not what you should expect from Halladay moving forward…I say pass.
u convinced me on Lee
although he has poor numbers in Fenway
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 29, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't get me wrong
Halladay> Lee, but when you factor in age, contract and amount to give, Lee makes sense. This deal was a good one for the Phills. Also-Halladay career at Fenway=4.29. Such split howver don’t mean much. Players get used to their parks.
If Lee has an off day at Fenway it'll be bad
A left-handed pitcher without plus velocity won’t survive here without excellent control, command, and plus offspeed pitches.
If Lee’s on, with good defense (okay, so maybe he’s not the best fit) he’ll be fine.
by South Coast Ghost on Jul 29, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus, he was pitching AGAINST the Sox.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
read what I said-
it was a response to the comment about Lee’s stats at Fenway. And I said that the splits for visiting pitchers don’t matter much. But-again you don’t actually look-Lee’s stats at Fenway are no worse than Halladay’s.
Fenway performance
It’s unfair to look at how a pitcher has performed at Fenway simply because every time they’ve pitched there they have by default been facing one of the best offenses in the league.
by Gnick on Jul 29, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn't see you comment, Gnick.
My bad.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Me too.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 29, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Wouldn't it be funny...
Philadelphia still has ALL THREE prospects that Toronto wanted for Halladay. They could still make a deal, theoretically.
Philadelphia really did get the better end of the deal here
They got an incredibly solid pitcher for 8 months without giving up Drabek, Brown, OR Taylor. Halladay is better than Lee, but not two of the three above prospects better.
by South Coast Ghost on Jul 29, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
That would be great for Philly
A friend of mine, a Yankee fan, just said “Philly seems desperate to repeat”. I guess Yankee fans know about desperation.
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
Everyone is saying that this hurts the market for Halliday, but...
now he is the only elite pitcher available. Yes, demand for pitchers is down, but now so is supply. If the Sox had been pursuing either one aggressively, then this might drive the price up for Halliday.
Personally, I hope he stays put. But I would give up a hell of a lot to keep him off the MFY this season.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
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