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Sox piss down their legs against Oakland. And other ''measured" reactions/thoughts.

The Youk is not happy about extra-inning losses to Oakland @ Fenway. (AP Photo/Winslow Townson)

More photos » by Winslow Townson - AP

The Youk is not happy about extra-inning losses to Oakland @ Fenway. (AP Photo/Winslow Townson)

I am tired of Jonathan Papelbon. There, I said it. Blame Nick Green all you want; Paps allowed 3 hits (one a double) and a walk in one inning of work. That ain't got it for your closer, and it's the kind of results we've been getting all season. Tito and Theo were man enough to change the guard after Foulke had done more than most to win us a World Series. Can they be again?

Among all of our RPs, Paps is first fourth in FIP, first fifth in WHIP, first fourth in K/BB. Of all of our relievers, the only categories in which he is first are LOB% and difference between ERA and FIP. On some teams, such a RP would be in a 6th inning or long relief role. 

And while we're at it, Nick Green. Two errors, one of which was completely his fault, and one (the Mark Ellis GB) where someone should've been screaming their lungs out for him to not throw. The ball was down, his head was down, it's up to someone (I don't care whoTF gets that responsibility) should be telling him to eat the ball.

Jason Bay still doesn't play shallow enough in front of the monster. Also, would be nice if he went on a streak soon.

People get way too pissed about J.D. Drew these days. When I read that Nick Cafardo wants to trade him to the Tigers straight up for Magglio Ordonez (of the .689 OPS and the -10.9 UZR/150 this season), it made me want to punch somebody. Preferably, in this case, Nick Cafardo. Obviously I'm joking, but apparently Cafardo was not, and that's a problem. I understand he's been slumping, but hey, has anyone been suggesting that we trade Jason Bay off lately? He's been in a longer slump. Don't take this the wrong way; I'm not suggesting it. But it's just as logical a suggestion in my opinion. Maybe we should just throw Daniel Bard and Jon Lester off a bridge as well?

Starting pitching? Beckett, Lester, and Brad Penny can all leave the room. All right. WTF are you guys doing? Clay: Throw strikes. You've got the stuff, everyone pretty much agrees on that. It's way too early to be giving up on you, but you're definitely making it difficult to not want to. Smoltz? Good peripherals, bad results. The results are bad enough that another sub-par start should make us start looking at other options.

It's been highlighted a lot lately, but if you're mad about Jason Varitek's inability to throw runners out, then I don't know where you've been the last few years. This has been a significant problem for him for awhile, and it's not helped by the fact that we simply don't have many pitchers who think a lot about the running game. Anyway, the point is that it's a complaint that we just need to swallow; there's no solution for right now or the near future.

Yes. I realize this is all very reactionary, and I'm likely to be accused of such. That's okay. In balance, I'll try to get a much more positive post up in the next few days.

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Clay

I agree about throwing strikes, but it is kinda hard with an ump like that. I don’t know what a strike was. I don’t blame Geren for arguing. There were 35 hits in that game! That is 1.6 per inning for each team. That crap only happens when the strike zone is so small that the pitcher (Clay and everone else) has to throw the ball right down the pipe to register a strike. I am not blaming the ump for the loss (there is enough to go around on the team) but the high pitch counts and hits were distributed all around to all pitchers in that game. To me, that screams ump.

by Buzzy on Jul 29, 2009 10:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jul 29, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great Rant

All of which was warranted. Another one I have. What happened to hussling out ground balls?? It is as if the whole team decided to give up on trying to win.

What happened to playing good defense?? It is as if the team decided that they are not going to try and catch the balls hit into the gaps. I am also sick of our outfielder’s arms. We have let so many singles become doubles because they can’t play the ball and throw it well enough.

I thought Clay pitched well. The Ump was AWFUL on both sides and it showed.

Tito is really pissing me off too. He is not running the bullpen very efficently at all. He needs to make Paps pitching in something besides the ninth to let him know “Hey learn how to pitch”.

Tito needs to give the whole team a kick in the ass.

by drabidea on Jul 29, 2009 10:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Biggest Problem IMO

Lack of leadership. There is no one stepping up in the bullpen or on the field to say “Hey, lets beat the snot out of these guys.”

by drabidea on Jul 29, 2009 10:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Highly agreed.

Nothing more to add… I just highly agree with everything here. Papelbon has been less than effective and I’m always nervous when he is in a save situation. I also don’t think training the members of the bullpen to pitch only one inning is helping them out if they get into a situation where they have to face more than three batters in an inning.

by mhawkins0612 on Jul 29, 2009 10:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Bay and Drew

I have no idea why Jason Bay gets such a pass. I’m not saying throw him off a bridge, either, but he seems largely immune from venom.

I suppose a lot of it has to do with the contract differences between Drew and Bay. And that Bay in the anti-Manny.

by Bloggy on Jul 29, 2009 10:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Bay = anti-Manny

By that do you mean that Manny hits and Bay doesn’t? :)

BTW I agree about Bay and Drew, and have posted about that a few times.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jul 29, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

You be nice to the nice columnist!

Ha ha ha…SOMEthing like that. And the ever-important “clubhouse guy” that the Boston media seems to enjoy.

by Bloggy on Jul 29, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great post Drugs

Love it!!!

"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."

( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)

by MassGal on Jul 29, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bay

I think Bay is getting a “pass” right now because he looks like the kind of guy that might cry if the media laid into him. Don’t get me wrong, I like Bay alot, but I’m really starting to wonder if he will snap out of ths funk… and whay the media hasn’t talked about his collpase more.

Also… Big Papi seems to have the smae pass that Bay has. He’s earned it here in Boston and media is probably sick of talking about his struggles, but he has yet to crack the .250 mark and he and Bay are creating a huge hole in the middle of the lineup right now.

V-Mart anyone…?

by bottomlinesox on Jul 29, 2009 10:55 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No on VMart

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jul 29, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's wrong with VMart?

DD – your not the first to say they don’t want VMart, but Ihave yet to hear a reason…

Is he a bad club house guy? Is he too old in your opinion?

I don’t see why we wouldn’t try for a guy that can play 1B, C and DH…especially with Ortiz slumping and Tek on the back 9… what am I missing hear?

by bottomlinesox on Jul 29, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ditto on the no

If the Sox want a bat, let’s gut some of the farm for A-Gon.

by Randy Booth on Jul 29, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yea not worth the cost

He’s older, not a great hitter just a very good one.

Also, I don’t understand why people talk about how he can “play DH.” Can anyone not DH. You’re just hitting. Even Roy Halladay can play DH.

by BigRedDog42 on Jul 29, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This.

@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 29, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why Gonzo over VMart?

Again… I see no reasons for not wanting Martinez.

And SD will not trade Gonzo… he may hit better with a better offnese arondhim, but right now all he does is walk… pitchers have no reason to throw anything over the plate to him and he’s suffering badly.

by bottomlinesox on Jul 29, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gonzalez is a younger and better

If you’re going to trade prospects, you want to get a young player in return. People always cite the Hanley for Beckett trade. Remember, Beckett was 25-years old when the Sox acquired him.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jul 29, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lets see:

1)He is a better hitter
2)He has way more power
c)He is a better fielder at 1b
d)He is near/in his prime and younger
e)He is cheaper in terms of contract.

are those good reasons?

by Buzzy on Jul 29, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

When you give up a lot for an older player, you’re paying a premium for past performance.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jul 29, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

all he does is walk

check again-he has 25 HRs hitting in an absolute cavern. He has way better wOBA than VMart-thus is a better offensive player. End of story.

by Buzzy on Jul 29, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

true

Okay… it was silly to ask “why Gonzo…”

I know he’s the better player… but I see no reason for SD to trade him and the log jam you guys spoke of earlier will still be there (Youk, Lowell, Ortiz)… where do you expect Gonzo to play?

by bottomlinesox on Jul 29, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The difference (assuming Gonzo is available)

Lowell will be in the last year of his contract and, thus, easier to sit or move. Ortiz’s contract ends after 2010 too, although the Sox have an option for 2011.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jul 29, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

unlikely SD deals him. But VMart is not worth anything to the Sox. Consider that when he catches this year, his OPS is 709 (below Tek by a lot). At 1b his OPS in not really better than a L/R split of LaRoche and Lowell. So if we play Lowell against LHB and LaRoche against RHB and Youk at 1b/3b we have VMart without trading anyone…

by Buzzy on Jul 29, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gonzo is on my fantasy team...

… and before hitting 2 dingers this week he had one in July…

Bottom Line: He’ll finish with 35 HR, 100 RBI like always and he probably would do even better in BOS.. .but I don’t see him coming here unless the Sox handover every prospect in the farm.

I say we shoot for Halladay and hope Bayand Ortiz wake up…

by bottomlinesox on Jul 29, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Halladay will cost every prospect in the farm + one, too.

by Randy Booth on Jul 29, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And we've already covered why Halladay's not worth the trade.

AGon gets walked a lot b/c he never has any protection, like you said, bottomlinesox. So why are saying he’s not a good batter? Also, fantasy =/= player eval.

@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 29, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, he's a good clubhouse guy

He will cost way too much, is over 30, and really has no place to play on the Sox. VMart is a good hitting/poor defensive catcher. He is a poor receiver, and now plays mostly at 1B.

Right now, the Sox have a logjam at the corners with Youk, Lowell, and LaRoche. If Boston trades for VMart, they’ll have to open a roster spot (LaRoche? Lowell?). Cleveland will want something substantial in return for VMart. The Sox will likely have to give up more in future value than VMart will give them in the present. How much of an upgrade is VMart over LaRoche or Lowell? He simply isn’t worth it.

The Sox were interested in VMart early in the season because it looked like they’d need a DH. Papi had an OPS of .570 the first two months of the season. Since then, Ortiz has hit well. The Large Father has the highest OPS of anyone on the team since June 1st (.896) . So, the Sox don’t need a DH.

What the Sox need is better production from LF. Jason Bay has been bad for two months. Since June 1st he has an OPS of .710. That won’t cut it.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jul 29, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

all good points

so does giving up the farm for Gonzo make any more sense? I guess I’d rather see them go after Halladay after reading your thoughts…

also… LaRoche will be gone after 2009 and Chris Duncan will be the back up 1B/OF.

and… RE: Ortiz… other than Pedroia, I think my dog has a better OPS than the rest of the Sox through July… I’m just saying…

by bottomlinesox on Jul 29, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gonzo is an elite player coming into his prime

So the answer is yes, that’s the kind of player you “empty the farm” for (although I can’t see Theo gutting the system for any one player).

In terms of OPS since June 1st, Papi, Youk, Ellsbury, and Drew all have a higher OPS then Pedroia.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jul 29, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're ridiculous

Baseball is a game of peaks and valleys. Have you not watched this game before? Have some confidence in our team and stop trying to get shock value out of your emotional titles. Two of those 3 hits that Paps gave up were infield singles… funny that you forgot to mention that. As bad as that loss was, it only counts as one loss. As long as we get that kind of thing out of our system before Sept/Oct, we’ll be all good. Have some faith my man.

by DrewL on Jul 29, 2009 11:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Faith is good

but that one is on Paps. He has sucked all year, and always walks the first batter. Forget the 2 infield singles. Stop walking every one. And while it is good to have faith, it is not like this is the first time. Whe have blown big leads late in games to KC, the Os and now the As. Those are 3 last place teams when historical win probability for those games were 95%, 99% and 96%. In case you have not noticed, we can’t really afforde to blow games to last place teams when not only the Rays are a concern but the Rangers don’t seem to be falling of the WC pace either. I think the rant is fully justified.

by Buzzy on Jul 29, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The rant is DEFINITELY justified

I think it’s harsh to say that he has “sucked all year”, but he has definitely been trending downwards and it’s very concerning. Add that on top of him running his mouth on a semi-regular basis about wanting piles of money and being underappreciated, well…he doesn’t quite get the pass that others might.

by Bloggy on Jul 29, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Paps

20 BB in 43 innings. How has he not sucked all year?

by Buzzy on Jul 29, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cuz.

He’s saved 25 games thus far, blown only 3. At the end of the day, it’s the Double Yews that matter.

Has his stuff diminished? Undoubtedly. Were we all getting sick of him doing his circa 2008 Dice-K balancing act? Absolutely. And I was feeling pretty confident that it wasn’t gonna last forever.

I’m saying that “sucked all year” is strong terminology. C’est tout.

by Bloggy on Jul 29, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

save shmave

Joe Borowski had 45 of them in 07-and he sucked. If anything Paps pitching of late has been better-at the time of the AS game hist tRA was above 4…he sucks in context-he is not doing what he is paid to do.

by Buzzy on Jul 29, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sucks in context? I dated a girl like that once...

he is not doing what he is paid to do.

What’s that? Save games?

by Bloggy on Jul 29, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Forget save

look at the process not the result. First off-save is a BS stat in the first place. However, let’s say we believe it is a good one, the fact that the pitching has been shaky but the “result” ok simply implies he will crap his pants sooner or later-he has been lucky, not good.

by Buzzy on Jul 29, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hairz. u splits them

We’re basically saying the exact same thing and arguing semantics. We are both dissatisfied with his performance and for the exact same reasons (even though you’re using stats that I will admit that I don’t understand). :P

by Bloggy on Jul 29, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Think of tRA as ERA, but a lot better because it determines how many runs the PITCHER

actually allows, instead of the pitcher, defense, weather, and ballpark.

@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 29, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh

and I forgot to include in that list Pap’s blown save against the Mets (hard to even write that). I mean, he walks Sheffield (of course). Then gives up a HR to Omer Santos-a guy with a career 695 OPS and 6 career HRs…

by Buzzy on Jul 29, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bay

Because of Manny, I think Sox fans were bound to have complicated ideas about Bay. On one hand, you do have to give him credit for being an improvement defensively; that catch he made on Suzuki’s liner in the 10th was, well, not something that Manny brought to the team. But the hot start he had got a lot of people thinking he was going to replace Manny’s offense as well, and Bay just isn’t Manny in that regard. I think he’s a better hitter than he’s been this past month, but he’s not an elite hitter.

While I’m not a Drew fan, I agree that the straight-up trade for Magglio Ordonez would be a terrible idea.

More casual than the average fan.

by baseball conspiracy theories on Jul 29, 2009 11:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

All of the above.

I agree with it.

(Although, Manny plays the Monster better than Bay.)

by Bloggy on Jul 29, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Manny had 8 years to learn it

Bay has had one. it will come. Despite the slump I see Bay getting a contract.

There are two theories on hitting the Knuckleball. Unfortunately, neither of them work. ~Charlie Lau

by BHeebs on Jul 29, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Minor point (rant)

What’s with these “indifferent” stolen bases? Just allowing a leadoff hitter to take second base. You are big-time closer and you can’t hold runners on? A possible double play on the next batter didn’t happen because of it….and you know the rest.

Drew, Ortiz, Bay, Varitek…..generally .all weak performances this year at the plate (and a weak hitting bench) while Dice-K, Smoltz and Buchholz have done almost nothing on the mound but THE KEY CONCERN, is Papelbon. Without a lights-out closer, we’re dead. Those save numbers for him, by the way, are misleading. The other night he comes in with a 3-run lead, almost blows the game leaving the tying and winning run on base – and still gets a save! Ridiculous. We’ve all watched him this year – he’s not the same dominant pitcher he was in the past. What’s the deal with him?

What happened last night is not an abberration. He’s struggled a number of times this year. The Red Sox have to straighten him out…..or the rest of the problems are moot. as far as a championship goes.

by ccthemovieman on Jul 29, 2009 12:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Way to say exactly what we've all been saying.

Aside from the evaluation of Bay, Papi, Drew, Tek, Smoltz and Buch.

@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 29, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Paplebon and Hanley Ramirez

Paplebon has not been himself this season people are hitting him I say we put bard in the tight situations.

Also I think we could trade Paplebon to a team that needs a decent closer like the Marlins. We package Paplebon, Lowrie, and Bucholz for Hanley.

by Bigpapi34 on Jul 29, 2009 12:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This.

They wouldn’t be able to afford him – Hanley’s the big draw right now.

@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 29, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Drew for Ordonez

Until I hear from someone who knows more than I about what’s wrong with Magglio this year, I’d take that straight up trade in a heartbeat! He’s a carreer .310 hitter, 273 HRs and a .881 OPS…compare that with Drew’s…
DB

by db24 on Jul 29, 2009 12:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That is an awful trade for so many reasons

Here’s a few:

(1) Magglio makes more money. He makes $18 million a season. The contract ends after this year, but there are two options. The first one has a buyout. I’d be shocked if the Tigers didn’t buy him out.

(2) Magglio sucks as a hitter. Right now, he has a .689 OPS. How bad is that? Well, that’s worse than what Jason Bay has put up for the last two months. That’s signifcantly worse than JD Drew. Drew was a better hitter than Ordonez last year too.

(3) Magglio is bad with the glove too. He has been a minus RF by UZR the past wto seasons. JD Drew is by far the Sox’ best defensive OF. RF in Fenway is no picnic. Imagine Ordonez and Bay on the corners—yikes!

(4) Drew has a better career OPS. You’re right, Magglio’s career OPS is .881. But Drew’s career OPS is .888—and Drew is 2 years younger. Thus, going forward, it’s likely that Drew—the younger, better player—will put up better numbers than Magglio.

(5) Never listen to Nick Cafardo. The fact that he proposed this trade should tell in an instant that it is stupid.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jul 29, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd.

@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 29, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ordonez

He has better career numbers than Drew, but he is having a bloody awful season. I saw the Tigers play the White Sox recently, and Magglio just looked lost at the plate. So you’re talking about trading one slumping player for another slumping player with an even more massive contract.

More casual than the average fan.

by baseball conspiracy theories on Jul 29, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of trades....

The Phils just got LH Cliff Lee from the Indians. The Phillies are not resting on their laurels!

by ccthemovieman on Jul 29, 2009 2:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No a bad gamble

for the Phillies. I doubt I would do it since they are already coasting into the playoff and are the defending champs-so shouldn’t be itching to trade tomorrow for today, but still, Lee is a good pitcher and they hold on to Drabek. I Think Lee is better value than Halladay: He is 2
years younger and cheaper in salary and in prospects, his WAR over the last 2 years is almost the same, plays with a shitty defense behind him and in a pitchers park. halladay is great, but plays with a great defense behind him and in a big park. Also, Halladay is having his best year in the last 5 or so-this is not what one should expect from Halladay.

by Buzzy on Jul 29, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LAST NIGHT

Paps is an absolute disaster this season. To get through ANY of his performances requires 5 rolls of Rolaids, three quarts of Jack, and a handful of Paxils.
Theo needs to weave the magic and pick up both a bat and an arm. Heck, I’d even settle for a Marco Scutaro if it were attached to a Roy.
What makes this L so horrific is the fact that not only do we lose the chance to gain on the Yanks but that Texas is now breathing right down our necks

by lisoxman on Jul 29, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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