Sox offer Buchholz, Bowden, Westmoreland for Roy Halladay
by SoxAcumen on Jul 28, 2009 4:29 PM EDT
96 comments
Editor's Note: According to Yahoo's! Gordon Edes, the Red Sox have offered Clay Buchholz, Michael Bowden and Ryan Westmoreland to Toronto for Roy Halladay. No word if those are the only three prospects involved, but the Jays have said before that teams inside the division will have to pay a "premium price" -- an extra player -- for Halladay.
Theo is by far the smartest GM in baseball. I am convinced that he has played these negotiation perfectly. Over-valuing Buchholz's potential, claiming he is untouchable, then turning around and offering him as the key piece to Toronto, Cleveland and San Diego to get an established All star caliber player who switches the pressure to Anaheim, NY and Tampa Bay. Theo is playing chess while the rest of the AL GMs are playing checkers.
At worst, Theo has just made the Yankees and Angels nervous and given Toronto the leverage to demand Kyle Drabek, Dominic Brown and JA Happ and Cleveland almost a lock to trade Lee, probably to the NL. If Boston gets Haladay everything changes for the playoffs and Lee becomes extremely important to LAA, LAD, Yankees, and Philly. Even if Boston does not get Haladay, a very likely scenario is he goes to Philly, Lee possibly goes to LAD, both are out of the AL and neither is on the Angels, Rays or Yankees. Win/Win.
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Does anyone believe Edes?
I am quite confident this is pure BS. Just recently Edes claimed that the Sox offered Buchholz straight up for Victor Martinez and were rebuffed. Several other articles the same day had it the other way: The Tribe offered VMart for Buch and were rebuffed. I can be pretty sure that Theo would never make this deal-JP has stated that the Sox and Yankees will ahve to pay more than teams out of the AL East, and Theo is not going to dump several prospects to get a 32 year old pitcher who will cost craploads of money and increases the Sox chances of getting to the playoffs marginally. If this has been discussed at all, I would think it has been just to drive up the price for the Yankees.
In other news, SoxAcumen-I think this will be an interesting read:
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/07/matsuzaka_criti.html
Now, don’t you think if you criticize Buchholz for simply saying he wants the chance to pitch your boy is in line for a whole crapload of abuse for this?
by Buzzy on Jul 28, 2009 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Dice-K's excuses are tired
He came to camp out of shape and is now making excuses for his failure. He is probably embarassed by how bad he was this year. Hopefully, he’ll be better next year. If he is, I don’t think there will be much fallout from this.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 28, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
This may also be the whole “different messages to different audiences” thing, because I had thought that Dice-K was receptive to coaching and rehab from the Sox earlier. We’ve (rightfully) crapped all over Dice-K’s 90-pitch marathon in mid-April in a game as meaningful to the Red Sox’s season as if he were throwing wadded up tissue paper in the trashcan, but supposedly the WBC is a big deal to the non-US contestants. Maybe he or someone advising him felt he needed to say this to not give credence to any hard feelings?
Total speculation on my part, obviously. Also, I agree that a solid 2010 campaign erases any memory of this comment.
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 28, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops
Farrell apparently doesn’t feel there’s been any increased receptiveness to coaching on Dice-K’s part:
“Do I think he’s more open? No. This couldn’t be any further from it,” said Farrell. "There is no openness.
“There’s been a lot of conversation back and forth. Thoughts have been exchanged. The disappointment comes from him airing his dirty laundry,” said Farrell.
Farrell also disagreed that Matsuzaka’s suggestion of throwing more pitches would have any positive effect on his shoulder.
“The rigors of this schedule presents energy and taxation regardless of where you’re from,” said Farrell. "The body needs a recovery and recuperation period. It comes to a point of diminishing returns when you pile on volume.
“If you’re going to throw 115 pitches, you’ve got to go out and be effective. At some point there’s got to be some accountability and responsibility from the player,” said Farrell."
Sounds like it’s Dice-K (or Douche-K) being Pedro…
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 28, 2009 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dice K is a winner
He is also a vet, speaks almost no english and knows little about our culture, so i will give him some slack. I would put a lot of money on Dice-K being back in Aug. or Sept. and being the magician he was in 08. Dice-K is a professional, he will bounce back.
I love that you guys are still running the “Haladay wont help us that much” BS, its hilarious.
Haladay is a Cy young winner who just mowed the Red Sox down in 9 innings, but he cant help us in the run to the playoffs or in the a series where he pitches twice? OK. I mean as if Buchholz will even get to pitch in Sept., let alone the playoffs.
You guys seriously have to get over this man crush, its killing Clay’s career. What cracks me up the most though Buzz, is that if what I believe is going on (and I admit I have no way of confirming until after friday), Theo played a lot of people, including most of the Nation.
by SoxAcumen on Jul 28, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's just wait and see.
Let me be clear about some things in my post:
a)The Dice-K thing was just to bait you SA! Of course I want Dice to succeed for the sake of the Sox. I do think, however, if what he says in translation (regarding Japanese shoulders being different) then he is nuts. I mean, a better explanation for why Japanese pitchers do not have sustained success in the majors might not have to do with strange racial theories but just that their pitching styles take getting used too (their deliveries are funky), but once you see them enough, they are simply not good enough.
b)Don’t get me wrong-Halladay would be a big upgrade over Clay this year, and maybe for a few years. But he will cost a bunch and he is past pitching prime years. Not a great idea to go with. Two decent starters who are young and cheap are worth more to your team than one great but aging guy who will fall off the pace sooner rather than later.
c)As for chances, you should do the computations based on WAR values and expected starts. Halladay would likly be worth 1 win, maybe 2 wins. That will increase the Sox chances by 5-10%. This kind of analysis can be found all over the web, go to beyond the boxscore and read multiple articles on this. In fact, Cliff Lee is likely a better value than Roy Halladay, despite the fact that Halladay has been better for much longer.
OK-anyway that is all I mean. Let’s just wait and see. Maybe you will be sorely dissapointed in Theo.
by Buzzy on Jul 28, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree totally
Let’s see what happens.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 28, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What man-crush are you talking about, SoxAcumen?
You have an irrational hatred of Clay Buchholz, and a love for all Japanese pitchers.
What makes Dice-K a “winner”? Julio Lugo has as many rings as Dice-K. Is he a “winner” too? In 7 post-season starts (averaging 5 inning), Matsuzaka has a 4.79 ERA 1.57 WHIP. He has made one good start (Game 1 of last year’s ALCS) and one eh start (2007 WS). The rest of his starts have been bad. In his other 5 starts, Matsuzaka has thrown 23.1 IP (4.2 IP/start) with an ERA of 6.56 and a 1.80 WHIP. That’s not exactly the stuff of legend.
Don’t talk about the WBC, a meaningless Spring Training tournement, or Matsuzaka’s success in Japan. The competition in the Japanese leagues is comperable, at best, with Triple-A ball in North America. Dice-K is a decent pitcher. But he is nothing special. That said, I also hope he bounces back.
However, I have no doubt that Buchholz—even if he doesn’t come near his ceiling—will be better than Dice-K. In 443 minor league inning Buchholz has an ERA of 2.42, a WHIP of 1.00, and has averaged 10.3 K/9. There’s a reason every other team asks for Buchholz in any big trade with the Sox. Maybe you’re smarter than all the GMs. Then again, you would have been happy to include Jon Lester in a trade for Johan Santana.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 28, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have an idea for a post...
Using this calculator to find what Dice-K’s expected performance would be in the MLB based on his Japanese stats (assuming the Jap=AAA thing), and then finding what level his Japanese performance matches up with based on the reverse calculation (MLB stats → different minor leagues).
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 28, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clay-Man
I really think we can use Clay to our advantage. Never in my life have I seen such an overrated Boston SP (well maybe I have….Dice-K er….umm…). He did throw a no-hitter, yeah, but so have a lot of pitchers who we never hear from again. If we can land Halladay, who can beat us? We’d have Beckett, Lester, Wakefield, and Halladay for Pete’s sake, not to mention Penny, Smoltz, and Dice-K (if they can turn it around). If we can get him, then it will be Red Sox in the Series. I guaruntee it.
by RockofAges on Jul 28, 2009 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Forget what you think about Clay
which is fine. How much do you think:
a)Halladay increases the Sox chance of making the playoffs?
b)Increases the Sox chance of winning the WS once in the playoffs?
by Buzzy on Jul 28, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a) Not that much
b) Significantly
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 28, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a)according to http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/7/26/963183/playing-the-odds-previewing-the, the red sox have a 76% chance of making the playoffs right now. Halladay would ad about 14% to that so the red sox would be around 90%. i call that significant
b) pitching 2 games in a 5 game series and 2-3 games in a 7 game series is huge so it will probably be greater than 14%
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 28, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
firat of all-I don’t think 14% for this year is worth trading away young, talented guys who will cost nothing to get in return a guy who will be 33 in his first year with your team and will require a big raise, thus making mandatory a big raise for Beckett, etc. Even the Yankees are saying that they are overextended fanancially and can’t take on big contracts (even Arroyo’s). It is a new economic world, my friends. I would be all for throwing Clay and others to go for someone like Adrian Gonzalez (probably in the off season)-it is a greater need for us, and he is much younger and cheaper. If we shoot our wad with Halladay, then we are not at all in a position to go for anyone else where we really need it. Figuring the playoff odds is harder, but let me say this-Schilling and Beckett were already known playoff performers. How has Roy been in the playoffs? Ask Braves fans about having a “can’t beat” 1-2-3.
by Buzzy on Jul 28, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I posted that in the – Roy Halladay is not the answer – fanpost:
“Halladay is the 3rd best Pitcher in the Majors right now with a WAR of 5. So if you put him into the rotation for Penny u gain 2.9 WAR. For Smoltz youd gain a whooping 4.2 WAR. If you compare other positions you realize you cannot increase your WAR by around 3 for the same cost of the Halladay Deal.
Lets see the WAR of other Players often discussed:
VMart 2.6 (0.8 increase over Tek and he wouldnt even catch all games)
AGon 3.1 (2.6 over Lowell if Youk plays 3B and he would be more expensive than Halladay)
The only other trades which increase the WAR by 3 and more are completely unrealistic ones like HanRam or Pujols or Lincecum.
My whole point is although the rotation is good and one of the strengths right now, it isn’t necessary the best idea to upgrade the weakness. In this case it might be better to further improve your strength.”
I understand your reluctance according to Halladay. But the increase in WAR is bigger with him than with Agon, who would play in a New League, in a ballpark build for righthanded hitters (ok still better than current ballpark). Yes he is younger but you only get 2,5 years guaranteed from him and he would probably cost even more than Halladay.
Smoltz and Penny come of the books freeing the Red Sox of around 15 mil, Halladay makes a little more, but he has proven to be Elite in our Division that is a huge plus for me.
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 28, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But
that is not my point. First, he is worth a bit less than 3 war for the rest of the year. He would not replace Smoltz immediately, he would replace Buchholz who we would trade for him. If Wake is out for, say 3 more weeks, you have to adjust again. This means his value to the team is something like 2-2.5 WAR. Which is not anything to laugh at. On the other hand, the value of someone like AGonz is not the absolute WAR comparison for this year-it is his contract and his age. He will give us more WAR for longer without costing an amount that will make it impossible to extend guys we want or sign new players we want.
by Buzzy on Jul 28, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 28, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW
you might not have seen Gonzalez play, but he goes the other way with power-actually while Fenway suppresses left handed power, it increases left hand wOBA more than for righties-especially guys who hit the opposite way.
by Buzzy on Jul 28, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course Agonz adds more financial flexibility and guarantees extending other players. The Padres know what they got in Agonz, a Mexican superstar who is the “only” reason some seats get filled in Petco Park. With a very attractive contract: (09:$3M, 10:$4.75M, 11:$5.5M club option (no buyout)). The Padres are greedy (see Peavy Rumors) and getting Agonz would cost significantly more than Halladay. But if you get Agonz now you have a 12 Mio Bench Player in Lowell. You dont have Buch and Bowden anymore so you have to atleast get a 5th Starter costing around 5-10M. So the Agonz package is close to a Halladay package. Add to that Agonz changes to a new league and it takes some time to adjust, while Halladay is a proven Beast in the AL East. Your point is you get 1 more guaranteed year of a 3 WAR player which is big, i agree. But if you extend early you have to pay him close to what he is worth around 15M. But you could also extend Halladay, to lets say 18-20M per 3. And soon you have packages in equal size. With a WAR edge in the Halladay package and you dont have Agonz, who would be also blocking the organizations best hitting prospect Anderson (if he isnt involved in the Deal). I prefer the pitcher in this deals because of the bigger impact in the Postseason and the inning eating Halladay also preserves your Bullpen.
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 28, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s unfair to compare him to Smoltz in terms of WAR because Smoltz has been hurt for more than half the season. What you have to do is use Smoltz’s WAR + the WAR of the guys who filled in for him in the first half of the season.
by Gnick on Jul 28, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those odds came right at the end of the Sox slump/MFY surge.
Might be a bit off, if I understand VEP’s methodology correctly
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 28, 2009 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"If we can get him, then it will be Red Sox in the Series. I guaruntee it."
God damn, I am so sick and tired of hearing **** like this. You’d think NEW ENGLAND fans would know better after February last year, but no. It seems that everyone still believes in playoff locks.
by USG on Jul 28, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well..
A seven game series – and even a five game series – is a much truer measure of which team is better. But point taken.
* Mumbles under breath about how Harrison should’ve taken more HGH. *
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 28, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That makes no sense
How is playing a small sample a better measure than playing a large one???
by Buzzy on Jul 28, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
????
A seven game or five game series is a larger sample than a single game. Unless I’ve f’ed up the years, and thought the NYG-NWE Super Bowl was last year.
Which I apparently have.
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 28, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
I saw what you meant after posting my idiotic post-I already retracted it before (see above). Serves me right for not reading first.
by Buzzy on Jul 28, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No need to apologize
I read your response, and temporarily forgot how time was rendered. Then I was embarrassed that I didn’t realize USG was talking about the Rays-Sox series. Then wondering why that was played in February, and why I didn’t notice the snow in Fenway. Then I was mainly confused. And sadly, I’m dead serious about that sequence…
Getting old is a terrible thing.
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 28, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really hate when you forget that Curt Schilling and Josh Beckett played on the 04 and 07 WS champions….
Selective memory.
by SoxAcumen on Jul 28, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is Halladay
a proven winner in the playoffs? Schilling and Beckett already were both WS MVPs. And, as for mancrush-how about yours for Dice? You call him a winner, yet he has pitched 4 crappy playoff games and one good one…;).
by Buzzy on Jul 28, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halladay is only not thought of as a proven winner in the playoffs because he hasn’t gotten to pitch in them. If he did, it’s highly probable he would do just as well as he does in the regular season.
by Gnick on Jul 28, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
just trying to be a pain in the ass again to SA…but you could have said the same about Peavy or CC…but they have blown in their short stints in the playoffs…
by Buzzy on Jul 28, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Peavy and CC
Small sample, not indicative of their true abilities in the least bit.
by Gnick on Jul 28, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
USG - curb the language
You are the only person on this board who consistently uses the Lord’s name in vain. It’s very offensive. Let’s make OTM a little classier. Thank you.
by ccthemovieman on Jul 28, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry about that.
Not really lived in an area where people mind that, but I can understand how a lot of people would be upset by it. I’ll try and watch that specifically.
by USG on Jul 28, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm... he's not the only one who uses indecent language.
I do it often, but keep certain words off limits because of personal belies.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 28, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh, I'm not going to drop the obscenities entirely...
But I’ll do my best to avoid making religious references when I do. It’s a legitimate request.
by USG on Jul 29, 2009 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"A little classier"
That was handled in a very classy and respectful way, I must say. If I didn’t know better, I’d swear you were new to the Internet. Not used to that kinda stuff ’round here. ;)
by Bloggy on Jul 29, 2009 7:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you kidding
That was obviously a joke regardless of whatever my person religious beliefs are.
by Gnick on Jul 29, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You misunderstand, my friend.
I wasn’t responding to you, I was responding to USG.
I got your joke and was not offended by it.
by Bloggy on Jul 29, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To my own faux-pa
Yeah, I guarunteed a WS berth if we land Halladay. I was wrong to do so and I’ll admit it. We really should look long term in this thing. We need more young guys right now, and Halladay isn’t that. We are getting extremely old at C, and we will need someone to fill Ortiz’s void when the time comes. Youk could do that, so a 1B/3B would be nice. So sorry about the guaruntee.
With Kiffin on our side, maybe we'll actually have a winning record this year.
by RockofAges on Jul 28, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boy I hope this is a ploy
… To keep the Yankees out and make sure he goes to the Phillies while driving up the costs to acquire any other starting pitcher.
Our team is pretty good the way it is, of course it could be better but at what cost? All of our top prospects? For players that are gone after this or next year and limit our ability to re-sign our current players?
I hope Epstein is really playing this one smart.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jul 28, 2009 3:40 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 28, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
personally,
if the phillies do end up being the ones getting halladay (and not the yankees), why do we want to drive the cost up?
would it not be better for the cost to be low? such that the jays get less prospects back and be less of a threat in the AL East as compared to them getting a ton of high upside prospects because we dabbled in the bidding?
by sgsox on Jul 28, 2009 3:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Either way
the Blue Jays are not quite ready to contend for the AL East with the emergence of the Rays, regardless if they have prospects or Hallady. The MFY on the other hand, will be a lot tougher team to beat with the likes of Roy Halladay pitching every five days.
Introducing the new 2008 Big 12 Football Champions: OU, UT*, TT*, and MU*!
Now Introducing the new 2009 Big 12 Baseball Tournament Champions: UT, KSU*, BU*, and MU*!
by mystman995 on Jul 28, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this helps put the screws to Philly.
Forces them to make a move on Haladay or Lee.
by SoxAcumen on Jul 28, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i like what Theo is doing.
Even with halladay, i don’t think Philly is a world series favorite.
by BoldandBrash on Jul 28, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Yankees can’t afford to give up as many prospects as the Phillies can. I’d rather see some prospects that may or may not work out in Toronto (who doesn’t have enough money to field a competitive team in this division) than Halladay in New York. If we drive up the price so that only the Phillies can afford him I think that is the ideal situation for the Sox.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jul 28, 2009 4:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Reply fail
Meant to be a reply to sgsox ^^
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jul 28, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not Manifest Destiny!
I love that kid. Local boy, signed with his favorite team the Sox instead of going to college, showing a good power/speed combo in Lowell. I’m almost more willing to replace him with a more advanced OF like Kalish.
by South Coast Ghost on Jul 28, 2009 4:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Quickly becoming one of my favorite positional prospects
I agree with replacing him with a more developed player.
by BigRedDog42 on Jul 28, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 28, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DISCLAIMER: prospect overvaluing here
Jays fans should hang Riccardi if he turns that down. Well, they should hang him anyway, but that’s a worthy catalyst.
I – for one – hope the Jays do say no, mainly for Westy – whom I love down in the cockles of my homeristic, Sox-loving, non-objective heart – at least until he puts up an 0-5 line as a late season call-up (plus, he’s a Rhode Island product). When you consider the crap-fest that it the back 60% of most team’s major league rotations, these are premium prospects. I’d prefer to expend my premium prospects (if necessary) on an area of weakness, rather than strength. The Sox have pitching for the next two years, but there are some gaps in the offense. We’re lacking some pop, (Bay is great, but =/= Manny), and a true lead-off guy. We’re also going to need a 3B and a C soon. Let’s use these bargaining chips for those purposes…
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 28, 2009 4:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Edes
I think he’s just reporting stuff he thinks is likely to be true as fact, knowing that the Sox have better things to do than refute his reports. If it turns out that he is wrong, he’ll just stick the phrase “In a stunning reversal of course,” before the sentence describing what actually happened.
Lame.
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 28, 2009 4:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Nuthin
Can I agree with you? Thanks.
With Kiffin on our side, maybe we'll actually have a winning record this year.
by RockofAges on Jul 28, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See!
From Twitter, via MLBTradeRumors:
Dan Roche, an anchor for WBZTV, hears that the Red Sox did not offer Buchholz, Bowden and Westmoreland for Halladay.
Yes, because we’re not morons.
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 28, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon Edes has never been a reliable source
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 28, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saw on ESPN bottom line that Gammons was reporting this
And to me, Gammons word is law so I at least believe it was offered. Gammons also called the deal extremely unlikely.
by BigRedDog42 on Jul 28, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh Geez
Gammons word is crap. He is friends with all of the GM’s so he plays the game for them, don’t you know the “high-placed” sources all fedd intentional information now? These things are reported FOR A REASON. It is the teams ways to gauge interest, sponsor support(bigger role than people think) and play the other GM off the media as well.
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Jul 28, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
THEO IS EXTREMELY OVERRATED
At the risk of sounding like a troll, I think Theo is extremely overrated. Look at this trade and free agent signing history at this link:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/files/boston_red_sox_theo_epstein.xls
Other than the Ortiz signing, he has done little to improve the team via signing or trade. I think he is much more talented at scouting and cultivating players through the farm system. His trade and sign resume leaves a lot to be desired. That spreadsheet is littered with poor, poor decisions.
This being said, I think getting Halladay for Bucholz, Bowden and Westmoreland
by UGotRondo'd on Jul 28, 2009 5:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He’s won two World Series.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jul 28, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you kidding
The Schilling trade was brilliant and the reason that we went on to win the 04 WS>
by Gnick on Jul 28, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theo overrated?
Let’s look at the 2004 roster:
He inherited: Jason Varitek, Doug Mirabelli, Manny Ramirez, Johnny Damon, Kevin Youkilis, Trot Nixon, Pedro Martinez, Tim Wakefield, Derek Lowe, and Alan Embree.
He acquired: Kevin Millar, Mark Bellhorn, Pokey Reese, Bill Mueller, Gabe Kapler, David Ortiz, Orlando Cabrera, Doug Mientkiewicz, Dave Roberts, Curt Schilling, Bronson Arroyo, Keith Foulke, Mike Timlin, and Curt Leskanic.
In 2007, only Tek, Youk, Manny, Wake, and Lester (drafted by Mike Port, although Theo was with the organization) pre-dated him.
The team has won 2 WS, been to the ALCS 4 times, and the playoffs 5 times in 6 seasons with Theo as GM. The Sox have averaged 94 wins a year in that time, and have a pretty well-stocked farm system. I’d say he has done very well.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 28, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theo built the farm system from nothing.
We have him to thank for all this young talent we spend this time talking about.
by USG on Jul 28, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would say Okajima's signing was as important as picking up Ortiz on waivers..
Okajima was cheap, and he had numerous scoreless innings in 2007. He made the bullpen better by giving rest to others and helping Paps. Oki is fragile and sometimes his change up is a bit too high, but he has been an incredible piece added to the Red Sox. In early 2007 he was as close to lights out as any pitcher in MLB at the time.
Okajima’s perfomance in Game 2 of 2007 World Series was pretty incredible, yeah he didn’t have a great game 3 with the Holliday blast, but he was absolute incredible pick up by the Sox, and responded well to Farrell’s coaching.
Whether Theo had responsibility or not in the signing, it was under his watch, so he gets some credit, compare to the Beckett/Lowell trade.
The MFY got Kei Igawa for $26 million. If Theo signed Igawa, he would had been hung in effigy in Brookline.
Theo has made some mistakes, but he pulled the trigger on Nomah trade, and got the Sox to the World Series in 2004. He signed Tito, he pulled the trigger on the Manny trade, he let Pedro and Judas go without trying too hard to keep him. He didn’t pull the trigger on the Johan Santana trade.
All in all, Theo has blown it here and there, especially with some of his trades and signings from 2003 to 2005 with the exception of Ortiz (and the help of PEDs) However he got two world series rings. Something that New England has been waiting for 86 years. He has emphasize pitching and OBPs. Boston hasn’t had a below .500 record under his watch, so he has been an incredible GM.
Some GMs were like Dan Duquette, who had some big strengths but some glaring faults. Part of the 2004 team was bits of Duquette and bits of new management. Wake and Tek are probably the last bits from the Duquette era that also signed Petey, Lowe, Manny, Judas.
by superferret on Aug 1, 2009 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And yet
Okajima helped us win 1WS and Ortiz 2.
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Aug 1, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who's been on the team longer?
Exactly.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 1, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Testing mobile commenting!
I think the sox need to hold on to their prospects.sure halladay is tempting but we would be royally screwed if halladay gets hurt. Too big a risk to try it. Hold on to prospects and watch Buch and bowden each become halladays equal or greater.
Well, I'll appreciate for you to keep my zingers outta your mouth!
by BoSox415 on Jul 28, 2009 5:58 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Lucky SOB.
What are you using for mobile?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 28, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bowden will never be Halladay's equal
and I don’t think Buchholz will eather. Halladay has been a top-5 ML pitcher for years and will continue to be so.
by Schulz on Jul 29, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
5:00pm: ESPN.com's Keith Law hears that the Red Sox have no intention of including Westmoreland in any deal.
Per MLBTR, as usual.
by USG on Jul 28, 2009 6:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i heard peter gammons say something like his contract would not allow a trade.
by BoldandBrash on Jul 28, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He just signed less than a month ago, no?
Can’t be traded then.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 28, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From the Globe:
The report is bogus. The Globe claims to have sources from both the Red Sox and Blue Jays saying this package has not been proposed. At this point, I’m having a hard time believing anyone, but especially Gordon Edes. He seems to be trying to prove to Yahoo! that he is an “insider.”
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jul 28, 2009 7:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Edes and Cafardo are two of the least reliable sources
Both had Buchholz being offered by the Sox.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 28, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1,456,723
Seriously.
Once again, more informed.
by jkeough on Jul 28, 2009 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha!
Yahoo! “staff” pretty much debunks the entirety of Edes’ earlier postings – essentially admitting they were wild and unfounded speculation of some random douchebag, without mentioning said douchebag by name (i.e., Gordon Edes).
The Red Sox have apparently “added” Buccholz to the deal, along with “one of Lars Anderson, Justin Masterson or Michael Bowden, and ‘lesser’ prospects.”
Yeah. Not buying…
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 28, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cliff Lee
How is he a lock to be traded. Cleveland has no one close to replace him & he only make 9 mil next year. He probably will re-sign for 60mil 5 years before next year. Give the tribe the farm & sure they’ll trade him, but makes no sence. Please give up something for Victor, he’s injury prone & Cleveland needs to get something for him NOW!!!
by SWip on Jul 28, 2009 8:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You have it backwards. It’s Martinez who’s likely to sign a reasonably priced extension with the Indians. Cliff Lee has already ruled it out.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 29, 2009 8:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cliff Lee was traded this morning
Now you look silly, don’t you?
by Schulz on Jul 29, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halladay
The Bluejays won’t except this offer the Sox need to give up Casey Kelly(who no one is even sure what position he will play) Bucholz(who has shown no ability to pitch at the major league level and Lars Anderson(who has struggled for most of this year in double a) to get Halladay why not do it
by Bigpapi34 on Jul 29, 2009 12:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Punctuation
Don’t fear it. If you love it, it will love you back.
by Bloggy on Jul 29, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i read on mlbtraderumors.com
that the Phillies are very close to getting lee. This would make boston the front runners for halladay.
by BoldandBrash on Jul 29, 2009 1:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
I think it would probably make nobody the front runners on Halladay. Or, if you prefer, the Jays.
by Bloggy on Jul 29, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the sox are dumb
if they wont trade clay in my opinion the sox system is very overrated clay hasnt proven anything except one no hitter and those are known to be flukes. the only untouchable i see is bard the rest should be given up in a second for halladay who is the 2nd best pitcher in baseball behind lincecum
by Chris Schlitz on Jul 30, 2009 1:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Very Coherent!
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jul 30, 2009 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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