A's trade Matt Holliday to Cardinals
by Randy Booth on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 PM EDT
in News
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PrintIn what may be considered the first "blockbuster" trade this season, the A's traded Matt Holliday to the Cardinals for three players, including third baseman Brett Wallace:
The Athletics and Cardinals have completed a trade that sends outfielder Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for third baseman Brett Wallace, outfielder Shane Peterson and right-handed pitcher Clayton Mortensen, sources confirmed to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney.
In addition, sources said the Athletics will throw in $1.5 million to the Cardinals.
Holliday's name was thrown out there in trade talks with the Red Sox, but thankfully that is dead now. Some thought Holliday could fill a gap in the lineup for the Sox, but as we've seen from this latest trade, it'd take a lot to get him. Personally, I wouldn't touch Holliday with a 10 foot stick, but one man's trash is another's treasure.
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don't forget about Lugo
They got double-HOSED
Introducing the new 2008 Big 12 Football Champions: OU, UT*, TT*, and MU*!
Now Introducing the new 2009 Big 12 Baseball Tournament Champions: UT, KSU*, BU*, and MU*!
My prediction: Lugo hits .300+ rest of the way for Cards.
by Randy Booth on Jul 24, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
While playing great defense.
And he’ll bat .500 in November and become World Series MVP.
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
Thought for debate:
let Bay walk at the end of the year and sign Holliday when the Cards cant. Discuss-
I felt the same way this off season
but…look at the numbers-they don’t lie. We now have a better sense of what Holliday can and can’t do outside Coors. There is a case to be made that when factoring in all aspects-he is the superior player.
How can we say he’s the superior player? Bay has spent a year in Boston, Holliday played in Oakland for a half a season and Coors Field the rest. I just don’t think it’s very clear-cut.
you are right
he has been better this year. Given that plus how his road OPS was getting better every year in the NL +his defense, I still feel it is reasonable to say.
Personally, I wouldn't touch Holliday with a 10 foot stick ... Why?
On a bad team, in a severe pitcher’s park, Holliday is putting up similar numbers to Bay. And, Holliday is much better defensively. To me, it comes down to contract: which player is more expensive.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
I am not a fan of Holliday. I think he was helped way too much from being a Rockie and I don’t think he’s ever going to do much more than what he’s doing now. I’ll take Bay, personally.
OK
but Hollidays defense is worth something like 20+ runs over Bay’s. Holliday this year (no Coors)
wOBA+=112
Bay
wOBA+=114.
That accounts for park. So this year so far, Holliday is better (clearly) and that has nothing to do with park. Perhaps by the end of the year it will look different (except the defense-Holliday is damn good at least by UZR the last 3 years…)
Bay had the monster start and Holliday had the terrible start. I think this cemented a lot of people’s views when comparing the two. But consider this: In Holliday’s terrible first two months he put OPS’s of .648 and .872. In Bay’s last two months he has OPS’s of .701 and .673. Totals for the year, Bay has about 50 point more in OPS, which is definitely significant, but when taking into account park that gap closes some.
To me, it looks like neither is going to be worth the $15+M that they’ll be asking for.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
True
but at least with Holliday you get quality defense.
Yup.
I’m on board with you on this one. Though let’s not forget how funky Fenway UZR outfield numbers are.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
The only problem with Holliday
Scott Boras.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 24, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
I’m not in love with the idea-just thought I would spice up this discussion!
Agreed
Holliday may be a slightly better player, especially when you factor in defense. But Boras makes it likely Holliday will be more expensive.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 24, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Hoping the $180mil+ reports are wrong?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Sandy mentioned them several times.
I’m probably stupid to assume he wasn’t making them up, but I’m going to search a little harder right now.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Hmm... not finding it.
Sandy, you wanna direct us?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Gammons
Sox need a hitter (s)
Sox need another lefty in the pen, not named Lopez
Sox need a utility guy prefer one with speed
Scott Boras is evil
I’ve got no major problems with Holliday as a player, but the very mention of Scott Boras gives me a headache.
St. Louis is a slight pitcher's park...
not nearly the pitcher’s heaven of Oakland. Let’s see what he does in a nearly neutral setting, then decide between the two. Bay and Holliday appear to be close at the plate, Bay is better on the bases, and Holliday leads in the field, so it comes down to money and who’s better in the clubhouse.
In defense of Holliday's hitting:
He put up a 860 road OPS in 07 and a 892 road OPS in 08 even though his overall OPS was better in 07. Outside of Coors, the NL west features 2 pitcher’s parks and one hitter’s park. I would say that is pretty good. In Oakland he got off to a slow start, but since has really heated up. I think we have a fair idea at this stage of what he is as a hitter outseide of Coors. He is likely an overall 850-900 OPS, 370-385 wOBA guy in a neutral park who looks like a stiff to me in the field but UZR loves him. I will trust UZR on this, and say he is good offensively and very good defensively.
Since were on the subject of Bay v. Holliday, how about this:
Bay v. JD Drew.
A lot of people who post here write that the Sox “must” re-sign Jason Bay. Many of the same people denigrate JD Drew. I’ve always thought of the two as very similar players. Bay has more power. Drew is better defensively. Here’s a comparison of both players last year and this year using Fangraphs stats:
Player – Year – Salary Value – Batting/Fielding – WAR – RAR
Bay – 2008 – $13.2 million – 32.6/-18.4 – 2.9 – 29.4
Drew – 2008 -$18.6 million – 25/6.4 – 4.1 – 41.5
Bay – 2009 – $8.1 million – 16.9/-8.1 – 1.8 – 17.8
Drew – 2009 – $8.1 million – 4.7/5.7 – 1.8 – 17.9
I think far too many fans (and sportswriters) overrate Jason Bay and underrate JD Drew.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
I love Drew's
defense and arm. Far superior to Bay. However, he has been poor offensively in 2 out of the three years he has played for the Sox, hence people’s dislike. He was really good offensively last year.
But
Last year Drew was far better than Bay. This year, down years so far for both players, they are of equal value.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 24, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Both players are great
I am happy to have both on our team. My biggest problem with Drew is his health. He is constantly getting injured, where Jason Bay plays 150 games a year.
And yet JD's contributed more wins.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
oh i agree
just trying to rationalize the dislike.
I understand
I find the dislike of Drew largely irrational. While I haven’t liked certain players, I have never understood fans that need a scapegoat.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 24, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Holliday has tons of talent
In Fenway he could put up some serious numbers. I’d take him over Bay any day of the week. But you can’t go wrong with either player. Slight edge to Bay since Boras is not his agent?
Sox need a hitter (s)
Sox need another lefty in the pen, not named Lopez
Sox need a utility guy prefer one with speed
Assuming the reports of a huge contract demand are false, yes.
I believe having less Boras clients will help this team – once JD and Tek are gone, we’d only have Ells, right?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Then I hope Chris Carter can play LF
every game next season.
Sox need a hitter (s)
Sox need another lefty in the pen, not named Lopez
Sox need a utility guy prefer one with speed
Que?
He’d be worse than Bay with the glove. JD and Tek are locked up for two and (effectively) one more year after this season, respectively. That is, unless Boras thinks Tek will get more this offseason than he did last, and JD doesn’t completely break down.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Tek cant leave this winter
id the sox want to keep him right?
My point is if we do not sign Bay who the hell else goes to LF ?
Sox need a hitter (s)
Sox need another lefty in the pen, not named Lopez
Sox need a utility guy prefer one with speed
I like Bay and all
But honestly we should sign Holliday after the season is over if their contract demands are at all similar. The only thing is I’m afraid we’ll feel obligated to extend Bay given his solid performance since coming over and the fact that the fans really like him.
by Gnick on Jul 25, 2009 12:39 AM EDT reply actions
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