WTF?
by 75bandwagon on Jul 1, 2009 2:31 AM EDT
23 comments
How can we expect to do anything in the post season or even get there for that fact if we are going to do what we did tonight?
Tito blows it again with his disgusting display of handling his bull pen? Regardless of the rain delay wouldn't you send Smoltz back out there? And why would you sit in the dug out and watch Okijima load the bases with nobody out? He did the same thing in DC for Smoltz's first start. After a rocky first inning he settled down and even struck out the side to end the 5th inning. We got a run back in the top of the 6th and got some momentum back. Regardless of the pitch count they had him on Smoltz should have gone out for the bottom of the 6th. Instead they bring in Bard which is pretty much the same as giving in to defeat. I know everyone loves Bard, but I just don't think he's ready to pitch at this level. I know he throws hard, but he has no control and can't pain the corners. They put him in with either a big lead or if the game is out of reach (which that game wasn't). He ends up giving up 2 runs and our backs were broke. The same thing happened tonight. You could feel it when Masterson gave up the homer and when Okijima was left in too long. Every season has a few pivotal games that can make or break a season and this one was one of them. We blew a 9 run lead in the last two innings to the worst team in our division. And the Yankees and Rays won tonight. This is no way to go into the All Star break. We were up by 5 games over the weekend and now look what's happened.
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This is the kind of reactionary thinking I don't like.
The Sox had a shit game. We can cry and scream all we want, but let’s not point to it as a herald of our October doom.
No, you don’t send Smoltz back out there. His arm has tightened up, he’s old. You don’t do it. Ever.
Were guys left in too long? Certainly. Tito has NEVER, to me, been a good bullpen manager. He was fine when it was Oki 8 Paps 9, but give him too many choices or mess up his favorite 1-2 combo and he crumbles. Masterson and Oki were left in 2 hitters too long, Delcarmen was pulled far too early, and putting Saito in instead of a Ramirez or, yes, a Bard, was probably a poor decision.
You talk about our record and how this is no way to go into an All-Star break, but if we manage to win tomorrow, we’ll have won 7 straight series. Hell, go back further to June 1st, and we’ve swept 2 teams and lost 1 series. We’ve played BETTER than .667 ball. That’ 108 wins projected. 108! Last team to manage that was the ‘01 Mariners. And in a month we’ve played on the road more than at home.
We lost a bad one in depressing fashion. Get over it. We’ve still got the best record in the AL and the second best in the MLB. We’re a team to be reckoned with, not just a postseason hopeful.
by USG on Jul 1, 2009 3:19 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ditto, yo.
Yeah…I can’t necessarily say anything above and beyond that. It’s one game, and all it counts for is one “L”.
I would, however, like to repeat this:
No, you don’t send Smoltz back out there. His arm has tightened up, he’s old. You don’t do it. Ever.
Good Lord. Send Smoltz back out? It’s hard to take the rest of the post seriously if you are taking Tito to task, but suggesting this.
by Bloggy on Jul 1, 2009 6:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree about Tito
All managers make mistakes. Francona is better than most. If the one criticism is that Tito pulled MDC too soon, then there isn’t much to bitch about. Oki got the final out in the 7th and the Sox still had a 10-6 lead. Oki and Saito sh*t the bed. Would you have brought Paps in for 6 outs? No. Most managers would have started the inning with Oki, the Sox’ best reliever for much of the season. Tito used his best pitchers. They failed. RamRam and Bard weren’t legit options.
RamRam has not been good lately: 3 HR in 7.1 IP. He is weaker against left-handed hitters, and 6 of the 9 hitters in the O’s line-up were lefties or switch-hitters. 5 of those hitters are some of Baltimore’s best: Roberts, Markakis, Huff, Scott, and Wieters.
Bard has a 5.40 ERA in June. He isn’t exactly a control pitcher: 10 BB in 18.1 IP. No rational Sox fan would rather see Bard than Oki, Saito, or Paps with the game on the line.
The fact is Masterson and Oki imploded quickly. But this was a collective bullpen failure. If 4 or 5 top relievers can’t hold a 9-run lead, how is that the manager’s fault? You don’t play mix-and-match with large lead. That’s a bad way to manage your pen over a long season. This was an ugly loss (sort of like what happened to TB in Game 5 of last year’s ALCS).
I agree with your other points, though.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 1, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed to disagree
I also disagree about Francona. This seems to be entirely on the ’pen to me. It happened. We move on.
by Bloggy on Jul 1, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My problem is the timing. It was just poor all around.
Masterson and Okajima were both allowed to surrender something like 4 baserunners in a row a piece before getting pulled. Delcarmen threw a total of 6 pitches, and could’ve gone into the 8th. He’d gotten two weak ground outs. That’s what I want to put an end to the Orioles comeback.
When you use your bullpen, there has to be a concerted effort to use as few guys as possible, because on any given night some of them are gonna **** up. The balance a manager has to make is between giving guys too much leeway and being reactionary with his pulls.
In this game he gave WAY too much leeway to Masterson and Okajima, and far too little to Delcarmen. And as shaky as Ramon has been, he’s had 4 straight scoreless innings whereas Saito had given up a couple of runs to the Nats a few games ago. I understand that Ramirez has had trouble against lefties, but except for in the small sample size of this year, Saito hasn’t exactly locked them down either.
Either way, the biggest problems came with the hook, not the choice of who to throw out there next. Anyone else remember game 2 of the ALCS last year? He’s always had trouble going out there and pulling guys when they DESPERATELY need to be pulled.
by USG on Jul 1, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not that it matters
since it is NL, but Saito has a career BAA 0f .216 and an ops against of 592 against LHBs-that is pretty damn good, no? RamRam has always been an oil can against LHB-a 750 career OPS against. I get your point about timing, maybe it would have been best to use MDC longer, but history has shown that often MDC goes into the tank when that first runner gets on. This seems a really minor complaint. I mean, you are taking Francona to task for leaving all except MDC in too long. But MDC SUCK in his second inning. No way Tito starts the 8th with him even if he did get the last out in the 7th (which Oki did anyway). So it is a moot point-regardless of how long he used guys, they all blew (save the minor point above which matters for 1 batter). If you pull guys faster-who is left sitting there on the pine? Bard?
by Buzzy on Jul 1, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW
have you ever looked at MDC’s splits on results/metrics for pitches 1-15 vs 16-30? You should, you will find it interesting. He is clearly a one inning guy…
by Buzzy on Jul 1, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which could've been one great inning.
When MDC’s on, he can get 3 pitch outs consistently.
OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was joking
about the 9 pitches. Look, MDC wasn’t sharp, he let an inherited runner score. The reason he sucks after 15 pitches is that he sucks in his second inning of work-we have all seen it. Where as Oki is usually awesome in his second inning of work (and hence from 16-on in pitches where he has actully been better then 1-15). You have to go with what you know. MDC had at most one more batter in him. Sure, Oki blew up, and Bard and RamRam were strong today, but you go with what past experience tells you (unless you are Jimy Williams ;-)).
by Buzzy on Jul 1, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Epic rec.
OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude
I feel your pain, and the pain of all Sox fans. But, really, this is just one game. It is not on Tito, it is on the team collective. It is hard to take any loss that should have been a win. Remember the Rays in the playoffs? We were down 7-0 with 7 outs to go in an elimination game and won 8-7. That was far worse (for the Rays) than what happened to us last night. Who won that series? How did that “devastating” loss play on the Tampa psyche?
Masterson+MDC+Oki+Saito+Paps could not hold a 9 run lead with 9 outs to go. I fail to see how that is the manager. Sure, he could have brought in more pitchers. Like Bard, who is young, has not been put in those situations, and has crapped his pants most times out of late (eg against the Phils and Nats) or RamRam who has sucked so much lately that he has been demoted to 6-7 inning work. But, really, it is not on the manager. If your vaunted relief corps can’t change more than 1 out out per run what can you do? Live with it-there will be many more turns in the season.
by Buzzy on Jul 1, 2009 9:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 1, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW
is RamRam even healthy? He has pitched VERY little of late? The team is either hiding an injury or he is in the doghouse for something.
by Buzzy on Jul 1, 2009 9:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm curious about that too.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 1, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they got so high on him
That when he burned them once or twice they got reactionary about things.
by USG on Jul 1, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
it seems more than that. He has pitched only 3 innings in the last 2 weeks-and they have been lowish leverage. Even if you soured on someone, that is not a good amount of usage. There might be something amiss that they don’t think requires a DL.
by Buzzy on Jul 1, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everytime
We lose a game because the bullpen blew it (which hasn’t been too many at all) this guy comes in here and freaks out about how this team is going no where. What do you want to do? Fire Tito? That isn’t going to happen. Do you want to pitch relief for us and do it perfectly like you apparently expect our pitchers to every night? Probably wouldn’t happen either. Our relievers are among the best in the league and I think have been used pretty well so far this year. Long relief had to happen in this game, you don’t send an old guy out there after letting him tighten up for an hour on the bench.\
Pitchers aren’t perfect they have bad games sometimes, unfortunately last night a lot of our pitchers decided to all have theirs on the same night without consulting each other about it. Also, Baltimore may be last in the division but really in the AL East what does that mean? Baltimore would probably be a #2 or #3 team in most other divisions in baseball where they didn’t have to play among 4 of the best teams in the AL.
We’re winning the division with the best record in the AL and you’re complaining about a loss? That really tarnishes the image of Sox fans every where.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jul 1, 2009 1:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WOW!!!!!!!!
you could blame that on alot of things, lets pick one. the best bull pen in baseball this year? hands down one of the best managers in history? the fact that our bats couldnt compete with theirs that particular night? now me, i guess im just a little strange or something, but im just gonna say what the hell, you cant win em all, especially at the rate of 162 games a year
just my 2 cents
"Yeah, why rely on "facts" and "evidence" to support your arguments? Stupid me." BTLove
by irish republican army on Jul 4, 2009 8:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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