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Guys Who Don't Walk, and Other Offensive Thoughts

Ellsbury takes a lot of heat. But is he really the biggest question mark in the Red Sox offense?

More photos » by Ted S. Warren - AP

Ellsbury takes a lot of heat. But is he really the biggest question mark in the Red Sox offense?

There's been a lot of talk on this site recently about Jacoby Ellsbury, specifically whether he should lead-off or not. Many people expressed the view that his on-base percentage (OBP) was too low to justify leading off. People attributed this to Jacoby not walking enough, and being overreliant on hitting to get on-base. And the numbers would seem to confirm this: a .347 OBP largely stemming from a .306 batting average, with only 13 walks. Not awful, but commenters wanted more out of the lead-off spot. With Pedroia and his .414 OBP now leading off, this discussion has tapered off.

What I find interesting is the amount of attention Ells got at leadoff, when there are other issues with the offense. A closer investigation of the Red Sox offense reveals some interesting issues and unexpected observations.

Star-divide

Let's start with Ellsbury. He's been hitting much better recently (.340 avg / .404 OBP in the past 12 games), so his season numbers look better than when the discussion on leading-off started. . Among the 83 American League players with enough plate appearances for the batting title, Ells' .347 OBP is 42nd, which is very close to the median average. In other words, he's been pretty average. Moreover, there's a long list of players he's ahead of in his category, including Curtis Granderson (.344 OBP), Aaron Hill (.343), Jermaine Dye (.337), Alex Rios (.322), Grady Sizemore (.302) and Vernon Wells (.309).

I agree that Ells should be further down in the order, but it's not because he's a bad hitter - by OBP he's around league average. The Sox just have better options to lead-off. That said, Ells is taking an unfair amount of flak. His 13 walks are fourth lowest on the team among regular starters. Nevertheless, he's ahead of Lugo (9), Lowell (9) and Green (6). Lowell's low walk total is the real surprise, and his 3.9% walk rate is the lowest of the everyday players (Ellsbury's is 5.2%). Combined with his team-high 14 double plays grounded into (GIDP), and you're looking at a real drag on the Sox offense. It's a good thing he's hitting .300 and slugging over .500, because he's not getting on base at the rate you'd like. Nick Green gets a pass from fans because he's not Julio Lugo and he's hitting well for a AAA call-up. His OBP is decent at .341, but it's been inflated by 5 hit by pitches (HBP).

[Aside: the American League HBP leader is Kelly Shoppach, with 11. The Sox are 2nd in the league in total HBP with 30, after the Indians' 40.]

In addition to Lowell, I'm concerned about Jason Varitek. Unlike our third baseman, Tek can take a walk (10.8%). Moreover, when he makes contact, he's hitting the ball HARD: 22 of his 38 hits have gone for extra bases, including 10 HR. He's the only Sox regular besides Bay who has hit more doubles, triples and HR than singles. The reason I'm concerned is that Tek is one year removed from a god-awful season, and he still isn't hitting right handed pitchers (.239 AVG / .320 OBP). Given his age and recent history, I would not be at all surprised to see him go into another long funk for the rest of the season.

The biggest problem in the lineup is DH, obviously. Ortiz's 53 OPS+ is dead last among regulars, and looking through his stats, the only positive is that he's walking around 11% of the time. His K-rate has jumped to 27% which is higher than any point in his Sox career, and he is missing badly on fastballs that in years past he would have crushed.

Thankfully, even with Ortiz's struggles, the Sox have a good offense (4th in the AL in runs scored). In Theo's eyes, a short-term trade is probably not necessary. I don't expect to see Adam Dunn or Nick Johnson walk into the clubhouse; the Sox are more likely to get a bit player in the Eric Hinske or Mark Kotsay mold. The trade deadline is probably going to be very boring from the Sox POV.

Poll
Should Sox GM Theo Epstein be looking for a new hitter to improve the team's offense?
Yes. With Ortiz a shell of himself and other question marks through the lineup, the Sox need a new bat.
166 votes
No. The offense is still good, and it makes more sense to hold on to our prospects than trade them away.
79 votes
I don't know.
17 votes
Plaintiff objects to the question on the grounds that it is overly broad, unduly burdensome, seeks privileged information, or is irrelevant to the lawsuit.
39 votes
The answer is 42.
60 votes

361 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 161 comments |

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Comments

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For the purpose of comparing the number of walks drawn by everyday players, you really ought to consider Lugo and Green as Lugo/Green, given that they’ve really been something of a platoon, whereas the other players in the conversation really are playing most of the games.

by RSNexile on Jun 7, 2009 7:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

42!

Is that from the Impossible Quiz?

Well, I'll appreciate for you to keep my zingers outta your mouth!

by BoSox415 on Jun 7, 2009 8:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...

I had no clue what BoSox415 was talking about, so I left him with the weird question [about a Flash Game, now that I get bored enough to look it up].

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 7, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You game me a weird question?

Well, I'll appreciate for you to keep my zingers outta your mouth!

by BoSox415 on Jun 7, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No.

I mean I didn’t reply to it because it was a seemingly random comment.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 7, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

at least someone knew it was a game

Or, at least someone had an idea of what I was talking about.

Well, I'll appreciate for you to keep my zingers outta your mouth!

by BoSox415 on Jun 7, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ahh, stupid me.

0157H7 is almost definately into that stuff.

Well, I'll appreciate for you to keep my zingers outta your mouth!

by BoSox415 on Jun 7, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If we do not get a hitter we will miss the playoffs or be eliminated round 1.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 7, 2009 8:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed, kinda.

I can see us still making the playoffs without a hitter to replace Papi, but not much further. Now, that doesn’t mean we should be trying to get AGon or Miggy – no need to sacrifice the next decade for this year.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 7, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Sox aren't the Celtics

It’s not as if a window is closing. The Sox have a lot of rising talent, and there’s no reason they can’t be competitive for a while to come. One World Series is not worth selling the farm for.

by lone1c on Jun 7, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

Not gonna touch the basketball reference – all I know is Kobe is good. And on right now, but my sister’s watching The Passion for the first time, so I got overruled by Jesus.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 7, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The notion of a ‘closing window’ shouldn’t even be in any Sox fans thoughts. We’re one of the top clubs in baseball and one of the most recognizable teams. We’ve got arguably the strongest fanbase, one of the richest organizations and a smart GM. We’re not going anywhere.

by BOSPORTS on Jun 7, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget an incredibly deep farm system

3 pitchers who seem destined for the major leagues—at least 1 of whom should be a top-of-the rotation guy, and God only knows what Kelly will be—highly rated power prospects in Lars and Reddick, and a bunch of dice-roll guys who have big cielings.

by USG on Jun 8, 2009 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey Matzushocka

I asked this on another thread (that was dead so perhaps you didn’t see it) regarding Dunn and your signature:
a)How do you judge offensive ability?
b)Why do you think Dunn would be a long term solution to the DH issue?

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am not 100% for Dunn. But I’d rather have him than Johnson for his pop and the extra (cheap) year he is signed. Also, because I do not believe we will pay Bay what he will be asking, and we can put him in LF next season. This team needs a bat with 40 HR power, not another high OBP guy, although you get both with Dunn.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

$12 million isn't "cheap."

If the Sox acquired Dunn, he would be the 4th highest paid player on the team (based on players signed for next year). Teams don’t hand out large DH contracts anymore. Only four DHs were given a larger yearly salary than Dunn would earn: Hafner $14.25 million, Thome $14.2 million, Sheffield $14 million, and Ortiz $13 million (yearly averages over the life of the contract). All of these contracts were signed years ago. Thome’s large DH and Sheffield’s contract expire this year (Thome makes $13 million this year).Ortiz is paid through 2010 (with an option for 2011). Hafner’s contract goes until 2012.

Look at last year’s FA crop and what they signed for. $12 million isn’t cheap, and I can’t imagine the Sox will look to pay a one-dimensional player like Dunn that much.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let’s see what Bay gets who is also pretty one dimensional.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Compared to Dunn, Bay is Willie Mays

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll give you that but i do not want the Sox to pay Bay what he is going to ask for. I don’t think it matters though because i believe Theo and company will sign Holliday.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What makes you think that?

Holliday’s agent is Scott Boras.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because we have been tied to him several times in the past in various rumors….

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and Boras reps plenty of Sox

Tek, Drew, Ells.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah,

we sign Boras clients all of the time.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Things are different now

The Teixeira negotiations were bitter. When the Sox signed Ells, Dice-K, and Tek they had all of the leverage. The MFY had no interest in JD Drew. The chances are NY will be looking for an OF because Matsui’s and Damon’s contracts expire this year. I think the Sox will move quickly to lock up Bay after the season.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You don’t want them to pay Bay what he is going to ask for but you want us to pay Dunn what he asked for last year? Dunn is making way too much for the little he does for a team. He at least “makes it” with the Natinals because he actually plays the field, we would never (at least I hope not) put him in the field so we would be paying him the same thing for doing less for us. Plus why do we need another power bat? We have plenty of bats with power in Youk, Bay, Drew, Lowell, and Tek that’s half our lineup, we need folks that can get on base and let these guys hit him in.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Jun 8, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dunn does get on base.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So does Johnson, and other players that might cost less in players and salary.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

We don’t need homers – our pitching is great and we get enough runners on that a single or a double often score runs.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Guys.

I like Johnson a lot too. I agree with many of you that I think he should be our target because of cost and positional flexibility. However, it is kind of absurd to say things like “we don’t need a power bat” or “We don’t need homers.” Homers are good. They are valuable. Adam Dunn is a highly valuable offensive player. To think we should target Johnson because he fits our offensive needs is misguided. We need a good hitter; Dunn and Johnson are both good hitters.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes

homers good.

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But we shouldn't overpay for them.

If the difference between Dunn and Johnson is the same as the difference between Bowden and MDC, I’ll take Johnson now and Bowden in a few years.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sure

not advocating that. anyway this is all just runon speculation on our parts regarding trades. if one or two come down, i thing it perahps more likely it is not one we considered…

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bay’s career UZR/150 in LF: -7.5
Dunn’s in LF: -12.8

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bad argument

Dunn has been trending down in the same ball park at -20+ for 4 years (1 yeat in Wash). Bay made a bad jump to the UZR-fluky Fenway. I don’t buy this argument. Not that Bay is good…

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Dunn is clearly worse,

but if we sign Bay long-term it will only be a few years before he is a DH.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sadly
Did you see the game yesterday? It was my new high of Bay-fielding-frustration...

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw some of it.

Which play? The one that was called foul but was fair but Bay should have caught pissed me off.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was one

Another was a sharply hit single to LF. Bay was deep as usual and came up on the ball slowly. Bay didn’t get off a quick or strong throw. Lowell cut it off and threw home, just missing Murphy, who scored from second. Any other LF would have thrown Murphy out.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Missed that one. I think Bay is worse than Manny out there.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

manny’s d was under-rated

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Especially at Fenway, where the LF should play shallow.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the media chose to eat him up based on some silly plays, over all we did well with him. 2007 ALCS he nailed Lofton in a huge play.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep.

I think if someone told Bay about playing shallower, he’d probably at least try it.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw that one.

But I don’t know if Bay could have thrown much faster.

Well, I'll appreciate for you to keep my zingers outta your mouth!

by BoSox415 on Jun 8, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw that one

but I also saw all of the catches he has made in foul territory that Manny or Dunn wouldn’t even get to.

by drabidea on Jun 8, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

look, i am old school, not a stat guy. watch a lot of baseball, since im retired/disabled. i can only go by what i see when i watch games. a lot of these stats are new and to be honest i do not understand them. lol it is what it is.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

While not "cheap" its also not exorbitant.

Burrell will be making $9M next year in a similar role. We have to keep in mind that it is only one year which means it is much less risk than $12M at more years.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and 12 million is prob less than Holliday or Bay will get paid.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bay and Holliday play a position

Dunn in the AL is just a DH.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

correct, and last time I checked we need a Dh pretty badly. sounds like a good fit to me.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We have a DH on the books for $13 million next year

If Papi is released, no team will touch him because of his contract. If that happens, the Red Sox will be paying him in 2010. Theo’s track record has been to shy away from expensive one-dimensional players.

All of this Dunn talk is just speculation because there is no evidence that Washington is shopping him, and even less evidence that the Sox are interested.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s called a sunk cost. We have two named Lugo and Ortiz. Once again-I’m not 100% for Dunn specifically. All I know is this team needs a legit “masher”. We don’t have one. Our offense has regressed since last year, you do remember how last season turned out still right? You think we lose in the ALCS if we have Manny?

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A funny quote on "sunk cost"

Don’t look now, but reports of David Ortiz’s demise may be exaggerated. As Joe McDonald of the Providence Journal reports, Ortiz is hitting .280 over his six-game hitting streak, including a home run, two doubles, and four RBI.

Remember that when it comes to Ortiz, the Red Sox, due to the enormous contract Ortiz carries, will likely be like Lloyd Christmas in Dumb and Dumber. If the numbers point to a one in a million chance of an Ortiz recovery, GM Theo Epstein may take a look at the $12.5MM owed to Ortiz in 2009, the $12.5MM in 2010, and say, “So you’re saying there’s a chance? Yeah!”

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is from

Howard Megdal today…

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw that, I don’t buy it for a moment.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't say

I agree with it, only that the notion that it is just sunk cost, and not a big deal is completely wrong.

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

“A husband? What was all that one in a million talk?”

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can call it what you want. We can also talk about loss aversion and other economic theories. But baseball teams are not run like other businesses. The Sox’ FO has shown a reluctance to spend more than $130 million. Getting Dunn (which I don’t think will happen) would put a strain on the team’s payroll, as $25 million would be spent on players that do nothing but bat. I can’t see Theo doing that.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The bottom line is not giving Tex what he wanted to seal the deal was a mistake.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We'll see

He is locked up for a very long, very expensive contract.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He is worth it.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is stupid.

for the same money it seems pretty clear that Tex would sign with the Yankees. Thus the Sox would have to outbid the Yankees. That would just be a bad contract. You do understand that at a certain price, a contract is bad, don’t you?

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

People said the same thing when we signed Manny.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Manny's

contract was a bad one that we got lucky with. It is rare (look it up) that long term contracts like this work out.

So you think that Tex at 27 million a year for 8 years is a good contract? Hmm…

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think it’s that high.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

to overcome

Tex’s barrier to play in Boston I bet that is about how much we would have had to pay to get him here…

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m saying Tex would only have costs $$, that the organization is swimming in.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Sox aren’t swimming in money. They still haven’t paid off the debt from when they bought the team.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Disagree.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you

disagree that the team sill has standing debt? go look it up? please don’t “disagree” about things that are public record.

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you do know you can have money and have debt right?

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where are we swimming in money? I think the proof we aren’t is when the Yankees got Tex, CC and AJ and spent nearly half a billion this offseason and we signed high risk high reward low cost contracts. We ARENT THE YANKEES! Stop thinking we have unlimited resources to throw around and fix our holes, if we did then our team would look at lot like the MFY and it doesn’t.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Jun 8, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

We aren’t the MFY we have a much lower spending max than they do. Our target is <$130 mil a year, theirs is somewhere near the national deficit.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Jun 8, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Boy

you are really silly. Look up Jason Bay’s stats in the playoffs. They are as good as any year Manny ever had for us in the playoffs.

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

are doubles power?

Because Dunn has not hit more than 27 of them since 2005. Johnson, in a full year in Fenway would likely hit 50. Dunn would be fine as our DH, but I actully think Johnson would improve the offense more. He would be improved by Fenway, Dunn would not. He has faced ALeast-type pitching before, Dunn would likely suffer in the ALEast. His wOBAs+ are nearly identical-saing that in a context-neutral environment thay are have very similar offensive impact.

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree to disagree. For what Johnson will cost, we can do better.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What would Dunn

cost? Do you think he would come cheaper w/r to cost than Johnson? What would be fair for either of them for you?

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think johnson would cost Delcarmen +
I think Dunn would cost Bowden.

Dunn’s the better deal because of the extra year. We are dealing from a position of strength.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm

what is the “+”? If, say it were Johnson for Delcarmen vs Dunn for Bowden (which the Nats would never, never due just for Bowden), you think the Dunn deal is better?

I also don’t understand the extra year thing. Is there a provision that says we can’t sign Johnson after this year, for say 6 million? Or someone else similar to Dunn (say Thome) for 7 million…?

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol if you think Johnson will get us over the hump, I’ll take that bet all day.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what bet?

what bet are you talkingt about? Look, let’s just agree-you simply don’t understand anything about baseball. I bet even your fantasy team is struggling…

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha!!, right. you are saying I do not know anything about baseball while making an argument that NICK JOHNSON is a better score for this team than ADAM DUNN. You are trying to play the role of stat boy here.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

JOHNSON is a MUCH better deal for the Sox than DUNN.

He would be cheaper in terms of prospects and much cheaper in terms of actual contract.

He can do more for the team, hit and play the field to give Youk/Lowell a day off.

Is in his on right a very good offensive player.

Don’t get starry eyed by Dunn’s HRs. Hitting a homer isn’t all there is to the game and we have guys who do that. The days of Manny and Ortiz and us being an over powering team are over. We have guys now who can all hit well and get on base.

Dunn would be a horrible move for the Sox because he can only hit and simply costs too much. Hitting yes is a good thing but not at that cost. Bowden is too steep a price to pay before you even take into consideration the contracts.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Jun 8, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

read what I have posted. I said that on equal ground I would prefer Dunn. But I think that Dunn will cost much more in terms of players and money. That is simply a rational argument. And it is rational to say that they have similar offensive impact. You can’t argue otherwise, unless you want to admis you don’t understand baseball. Sorry-the “masher” argument is just flat out dumb.

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Everyone’s gotta opinion on the internet. It’s an interesting place.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

there is a difference

between opinion and fact. The facts are that, as judged from the standpoint of team stats vs. team runs, OPS correlates nearly completely with offensive output. Fact: Dunn and Johnson are nearly identical OPS players. How can you argue against this???

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And again i will say, Dunn is the better option for power. As I have been saying all along. I do not want either but given the choice I’d take Dunn.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

??

this is beside the point. “power” as in HRs don’t correlate with offense nearly as well as OPS does. So who cares? Further, Dunn’s slugging percentage (due to the paucity of anything other than HRs) is not so high. It is higher than Johnsons, but not greatly.

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But hes hit 40 HR’s every year!

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol you are arguing with yourself. I don’t like Johnson, you will not convince me otherwise. Get over it.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't

want to win the argument or get you to like Johnson. I wan’t you to start to take a look at the statistics that really matter and stop making irrational argments.

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, you have done just that.

Buzzy Matzushocka45
 1 0

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

despite

its advantages, it actually doesn’t, although there is a debate as to if it should. Anyway, it is close.

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Its a complicated discussion that I do not entirely understand.

TangoTiger says its value is best shown in its derivation, not its correlation with runs scored. I just do not see why it should not correlate with runs scored better than it does.

I love wOBA. It’s calculation is so much more conceptual than OPS.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's

cheating, like saying x=x ;-). the goal of the game is to take context neutral information (eg things like slugging and on base) an devise a metric to see how it correlates with runs…

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

i had a :-) too, ya know…:-)

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, totally missed that.

It blended into the x=x thing. My bad.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure thats necessarily the goal.

This article concludes that wOBA is better.

Also, I remember reading that 1.8*OBP+SLG correlates to runs scored better than OPS.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But

you didn’t answer my question: Why is Dunn a better offensive player than Johnson? And why is he a longer term solution? I mean, the Sox could resign Johnson for far less than 12 million, no?

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I did answer, i said his power is what I like more about him VS Johnson. And he is a longer term solution because he is signed for another year beyond what Johnson is.

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I voted option 4, mostly because none of the other options totally agreed with what I wanted.

Yes, we need a hitter, but like I said above, not a masher. I want a guy that can get on base a lot, play at least 1B or the corner OF spots, and be a decent DH from time to time.

Also, Lowell might need a DL stint, and soon. Unfortunately, we don’t have anyone better than Kotsay at 1B if we have to play Youk at 3rd. Unless we picked up a better version of Kotsay (Hinske?) or a good defensive 4th OF (SPAN!!! – I wish), a DL trip for Lowell would hurt us defensively.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 7, 2009 8:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Span wouldn’t be the 4th OF. He’s either start over Ells or he’d be in CF, Ells in LF, and Bay DH. That said, there’s no way the Twins would move him.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd take either of those options.

But, as I said before, it’s just a wish.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't believe the Sox will make the playoffs without

such an increase in offensive potential. Either Papi and Lowell quickly share in Wakefield’s fountain of youth brew or get some young productive bats.

by NG on Jun 8, 2009 7:22 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Lowell?

Seems to me Lowell is having a pretty decent season. He’s about on pace for his typical about 20 HR and 80+ RBI with a near .300 average. Is there something I’ve missed? Granted I’m just looking at stats, I’m in PA so I don’t get NESN so I haven’t gotten to see him play a whole lot.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Jun 8, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

aside

from his play at 3b and the 15 DPs-I would agree with you.

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

I’m in Tampa and I know that he’s struggling with runners on. The defense thing does require a bit of game-tape to observe, but you can tell from looking at his defense ratings:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=527&position=3B#fielding
His UZR/150 has fallen off the table after increasing dramatically last year.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OBP is more valuable than slugging

Lowell gets on base about as much as Julio Lugo does (.326 OBP for Lowell, .330 for Lugo). His average is around .300 and he’s hitting for extra bases, both of which are good things, but the low OBP and bad defense plus GIDP (as Buzzy noted) aren’t positives.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Jun 8, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure

but Lowell has never been a great OBP guy.

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eh.

He was pretty good in 2007:

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think bs officially loves FG’s more than I do.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eh.

They need more splits, like BBRef.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

but he had to hit 324 to do it!

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True.

Almost an Ells-ian way of arriving at an above average OBP.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Up and down! I am very concern about Youkilis s health and this teams mental daily really stink! no spirit!!!!! bum team!!! Sorry i spoken truth!! Glad see Bostons pitcher getting going expect K-Dice!! Drive me crazy with his control on plate! Look like this is Yankee’s big year! I hope not!!! Come on Boston!! Wake up and smell coffee!

by Craig O on Jun 8, 2009 11:32 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He Craig

are you a Yankee fan? You post like one :-)

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Non-english speaker maybe?

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's what I was thinking.

Until he said this:

Look like this is Yankee’s big year!

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You’re right. Because the FA that the Yanks picked up this off season are all monsters in the post-season, just like A-Rod.

by BOSPORTS on Jun 8, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't get it.

We are currently 6th in the majors in runs. Our DH is hitting .197 and our shortstop platoon has been subpar. I don’t know why we need another hitter.

 Once Lowrie comes back we will atleast get an upgrade at defense and will atleast stay the same with offense, if not get better.

Ortiz will either start hitting better or will not be hitting in less then a month. We will probably put Lowell at DH because his defense has been awful. This will mean either Green, Kotsay, or Baldelli will get more at bats. All of which are better then Ortiz right now.

Bottom line, our defense will get better and our offense will get better and we don’t have to make a single acquisition.

by drabidea on Jun 8, 2009 1:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree

Most of these topics are all panic related anyway. Our offense has been fine without Big Papi and tweedle dee and tweedle dum at SS. The bigger thing is though how long will it last? I don’t know how much longer we can keep it up with a lineup like this. Our bullpen has been keeping us in these games with their tremendous work but they won’t always be this solid and we will probably start losing games because the offense isn’t producing. Kotsay, Green and Baldelli are bench players, not players we will want to be starting full time. If we went out and got say Nick Johnson, he is a better offensive player than any of those three and can give Youk and Lowell rest if they need it while coming at a pretty reasonable price.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Jun 8, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, I really should've read your post first, Rogue.

It pretty much agreed with everything you said – my bad.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We don't need a hitter...

But I don’t think anyone is comfortable having Youk being forced to play 3B every day, or any of those guys batting more often than they do. Plus, we don’t have a good defensive 1B to replace Youk. If we got Johnson, we’d have a guy that can DH and play 1B pretty well, allowing Youk and Lowell to switch to DH for some rest.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes and No

I would be alot more comfortable with Youk playing 3B then Lowell. Ideally, I think if the team should sign anyone, it should be an above average defensive 3B with an average bat.

Our offense isn’t bad, it’s our defense that needs improvement. I just don’t think Johnson is a very good 1B.

by drabidea on Jun 8, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But it would make him a lot more vunerable to injuries, what with all the diving and hard-hit liners.

Then again, he does get a lot of those at 1B.

Johnson was an above average defensive 1B until this year, according to UZR. Not sure what caused the change, but it’s still only a third of a season compared to several seasons worth of data.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow.

This is a LOT more discussion than I expected to precipitate. Granted, it’s been hijacked by the Sundance and Butch Cassidy of 1B/DH-types, Nick Johnson and Adam Dunn.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Jun 8, 2009 2:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Who are those guys?

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 8, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure I want to know.

I think the Ells thing has blown over now that Tito has given in to our demands. Now we’re trying to bubble wrap what offense we have.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

bad options

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree

that we do not need to make any panic moves. Matzu-if these are bad options, what would be a good option for you? Just curious…

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Buzzy, why are all your post towards me making me feel like you are trying to bait me into internet arguements?
If it were up t me the Sox would part with some higher end prospects for a front line hitter. I’m not going to get into names becaue at that point it becomes “that person is not available”. “Thats giving up too much” etc…

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok

sorry-not really trying to bait. Just that both Dunn and Johnson, to me, are front line hitters, and you claim they are bad options. I would not give up too much for them, in part because I am not sure we really need a front -ine hitting option, but I am curious what you mean by this because those guys are pretty damn good…

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

reply fail

was suppose to be reply/question to Matzu above…

by Buzzy on Jun 8, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols for Lugo

DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!

by matzushocka45 on Jun 8, 2009 3:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Lugo's not available, silly.

He’s the cornerstone of our organization for years to come.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just an idea

What do you think the Mariners are asking for Beltre? He would atleast bring in a defensive upgrade to Lowell, who we could put at DH. He would hit better then Ortiz, I have a feeling they would want a good prospect though.

by drabidea on Jun 8, 2009 4:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Also

What do you think the cost for Juan Uribe would be?

by drabidea on Jun 8, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's cheap, signed for $1mil for one season.

Horrible SS, decent 3B by UZR. Better by wOBA than Beltre, but still like 50 points lower than Lowell. He projects a lot worse for the rest of the season, too.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting idea.

It would be more like 2004 in that we would be focusing on defense. He is in the last year of a $12M deal. I would think it might be cheaper than Nick Johnson and definitely cheaper than Adam Dunn.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True.

It’s not like our offense wouldn’t be able to take the hit from losing Lowell. Now, to look at it from a PR point of view – Lowell signed for less to play in Boston, and is a clubhouse leader. Would we be playing him as a DH, or totally benching him? The latter would be a huge hit to our reputation, while the former isn’t a great option considering his affinity for GIDP’s.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking DH

with some time at 3rd. Atleast until he shows he can atleast run to 1B

by drabidea on Jun 8, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, thats what I was thinking too.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 8, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm, his contract expires this year.

But he has a no-trade clause and is a Boras client. His UZR is a lot better than Lowell’s this season, and he’s been consistently above average, save for a weird 2007. Unfortunately, his wOBA is around 70 points lower than Lowell’s this season, and projects to be around 45 points lower for the rest of the season.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't know about the no-trade clause

Maybe he would consider it to be on a team that contends. He would add a TON of value defensively and would be hitting better then Papi so he would still be an upgrade offensively.

by drabidea on Jun 8, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The no-trade clauses are weird.

Players always have their own reasons to nix a deal.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 9, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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