Nick Johnson a "perfect" fit for Red Sox
by Randy Booth on Jun 5, 2009 1:23 PM EDT
in News
227 comments
The rumors have been flying around about Nick Johnson being traded from the Nationals to the Red Sox. The trade seems to make sense: the Nats need pitching, the Red Sox have it, and the Red Sox need a power bat. Now Buster Olney relays the message that Johnson would be perfect for the Red Sox:
"He'd be perfect for the Red Sox," the evaluator said. "You put Johnson and [Kevin] Youkilis together in that lineup back-to-back, and the opposing pitcher would constantly need eight or 10 or 15 pitches to get through just those two guys every time through the lineup."
Johnson currently ranks 26th in the majors in pitches per plate appearance, at 4.12, while Youkilis ranks second, at 4.47. The Red Sox won't part with someone like Clay Buchholz for Johnson, who is often injured and is eligible for free agency after this season. But a good second-line arm for Johnson might be the framework of some arrangement, given that Washington is going nowhere and that they could save about $3.7 million by dealing Johnson sooner rather than later.
Olney suggests a top of the lineup that could look like this:
Pedroia, 2B
Johnson, DH
Youkilis, 1B
Drew, RF
Bay, LF
Lowell, 3B
But I think this one might be a bit better. Maybe Drew in the three-hole could be good, too:
Pedroia, 2B
Drew, RF
Youkilis, 1B
Johnson, DH
Bay, LF
Imagine the opportunites for Jason Bay in this lineup. Pedroia, Drew, Youkilis and Johnson get on base at a ridiculous rate (not to mention Bay himself). Bay would have a field day with runners in scoring position. What if Drew raised his average, too? Then we'd have 5 guys in the first five spots of the order with OBPs over .400.
I don't know about you, but I'm liking Johnson in this lineup. I said before I was skeptical about what Johnson could do in Boston, but why not give it a chance? We know one thing's for sure: he'd be better than Ortiz. At this point, my baby nephew would be better than Ortiz.
What do you say? Should the Red Sox trade for Nick Johnson?
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Hey Buzzy, Randy stole your thunder.
:-)
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 1:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's good.
To tell you the truth, Johnson’s fragile nature scares the crap out of me. But, of all the fake trade rumors we have heard, this one makes the most sense to me. I just don’t see us being on the books for 12 million next year for a DH-it is not the way this tean has been run.
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think people have to understand
if Papi is done, the Red Sox will have to pay someone to play DH next season. Its kind of a non-argument to state that Theo will view Johnson’s FAgency as a bonus since he will be back at the trade tables or FA market in the winter looking for a DH.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why
is that a non-argument? It is a total argument. Dunn is way overpriced for what he gives at 12 Million as a DH. Johnson, on the otherhand, nets us a cheaper year this year, plus picks when he goes. The only aspect that makes sense in the anti-Johnson argument is health. And that is a fair argument.
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I asked this in the other posting
but I guess Buzzy the question comes down to how you view Dunn as a hitter v. what is out there and what you are looking to attain?
Are we trying to replace Papi? or just get through the season? Nick Johnson is a bandaid for 3 months possibly. Dunn would not be playing the field(this is also a non-argument), he would be our DH for 2 years and 12 million for a solid bat in a Lefty power park is worth the expense.
Its a non argument bc Theo is not going to sign someone in the off season for $4 million to replace Papi. This is a little bit of a fantasy. He would look for a solid bat to fill the spot and probably pay a premium for that bat. Are there players out there better than Dunn for cheaper than $12? Maybe, I haven’t looked at the 2010 FA class.
Once Papi leaves or retires or whatever, thats it, the money is gone. The Red Sox will eat it regardless of who they get to play DH so its a non-argument to say that Theo will consider the cost of a new DH bc he probably already understands that Papi’s money was lost before the season even started. His replacement will cost the Red Sox regardless.
BTW the cost of Papi’s replacement is not a negative towards Johnson as a player its just does not work against Dunn, since the Red Sox will be shopping again in the winter.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
$12M isn't that much.
Especially on a one year deal. If you disregard the negative play in the field (b/c Dunn would not play the field for us), he has been worth right around 3 WAR the last few years. $12M seems pretty on target for that amount of production.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jun 5, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO
It is a shitload for a guy who has no other value in the field. Name one other DH who approaches this salary? Papi-and that is it. And Papi got that bank in a good economy when he was putting up 1000+OPSs…
Look, If you agree that Johnson costs less, is more versatile, hits as well, and allows us to get value back while giving up less (not sure if you do agree with these things) then the ONLY argument that can be made for Dunn over Johnson is the health issue. To me that is still not enough. I don’t see any reason the guy can’t hold up for 5 more months.
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matsui, but i might be wrong on what he costs.
Giambi?
And another reason why Dunn is a different and better choice is that no pitcher fears Nick Johnson. Dunn would make pitchers throw to Bay and Youk…Every pitcher will choose Johnson over those two.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Check again
Giambi is making 4mill this year. 4MIl!!! Who pays a DH 12 Mill?
Matsui was signed by the overpaying Yankees to play LF. He is a FA and will not make close to that moving forward…
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matsui
is the MFY DH, the guy is a horrible OF.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is now
but when he was signed he was the LF, and he was signed to play LF.
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, not debating that, but currently he is their DH and costs a boat load of cash.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But does that mean we are supposed to pay a boat load of cash for a DH? When we could pay a canoe full of cash and get a guy who can play the field and be a productive DH as well?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jun 5, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn is easily worth the $12 million
He’s one of the top hitters in the game. And there are plenty of guys with bad defensive abilities who get signed to big contracts; Miguel Cabrera, Derek Jeter, Manny Ramirez, and Alfonso Soriano to name a few. All those guys really should be DHs.
by Gnick on Jun 5, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is incorrect.
that is why people were surprise that, in a market where Abreu, Giambi and Burrell signed for 4-6 Million, Dunn signed for what he did. Second, the guys above you listed do play the field. None are nearly as bad as Dunn in the field and some actually have value in the field. For example Cabrera actually plays a decent 1b. Jeter has been + in UZR for the last 1.3 years. The other 2 guys are not so bad.
It is not that they should be DH’s-they have a net value from the position alone that can only be offset in value if you are at the real nadir of your craft-like Dunn.
by Buzzy on Jun 6, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 6, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cabrera does not play a decent 1B his career UZR/150 there is -3, besides he signed that massive extension as a 3B, a position where his career UZR/150 is -6.2.
It’s true that Jeter has improved but he still was slightly below average last year. And his career UZR/150 is -5.7 from a very important defensive position.
As for Manny, well he’s worse than Dunn, with a UZR/150 of -12 as opposed to Dunn’s -11.2.
The point being that many sub-par fielders get big money.
by Gnick on Jun 8, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look - both line-ups are good
Pedroia
Drew
Youk
Bay
Johnson
Lowell
Tek
Ellsbury
Lowrie
or
Pedroia
Drew
Youk
Dunn
Bay
Lowell
Tek
Ellsbury
Lowrie
I favor Johnson over Dunn a few reasons:
(1) Johnson is more versatile (he can actually use his glove)
(2) I think Johnson would be cheaper to acquire
(3) Johnson makes far less than Dunn
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think (2) is debatable, but sure ok he might cost more, but you have Dunn for 2 years v. 4 or 5 month rental. Which is a wasted prospect.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All of this depends on what Washington is asking. Because Johnson is a FA, he’ll probably be cheaper in terms of what the Sox have to give up. Also, you don’t know that Theo values Dunn—especially at $12 million. The Sox gave Papi in his prime, a far superior hitter to Dunn, $12.5 million at a time when teams were throwing money at players. That time, at least in the short run, has passed.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
People seem to be saying that they would rather have Johnson because of the short contract, but that Dunn would cost more because of the longer contract. This is a contradiction. If the Sox would rather have a shorter deal, then the Nats probably would too.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jun 6, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Sox are a team with playoff aspirations, looking for a player to help. The Nats are a last-place team, going nowhere. They’ll likely lose Johnson regardless. They might want to get something for him besides draft picks.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 7, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your lineups are a bit screwy, Drugs.
Johnson would be before Bay, give him more runners to knock in.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
Johnson and Drew would be interchangeable: 2nd or 5th.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thome makes $13M and Hafner makes $11.5M.
Even if he is overpaid, the fact that it is a short-term deal makes it palatable. It would only be a few million dollar difference for one year. This is not a big deal for the Red Sox.
Now, if we can get Johnson for a cheaper package of prospects then I say go for him. I just do not think that the money ought to be a deciding factor in the deal. We have money; that is an advantage the Sox have over other teams. We can afford to take on a little extra payroll if it means significantly upgrading the team.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jun 6, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe having him rotate from 1B to DH would help with the injuries?
And better conditioning?
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How'd I do that? We've talked about Johnson a lot before, right?
by Randy Booth on Jun 5, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he means that
I posted Olney’s link this morning…;-)
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like this idea
The two best options I’ve heard are Adam Dunn and Nick Johnson. Johnson seems to be a better fit and also seems like he’d be the best value. The fact that he’s in the final year of his contract means we wouldn’t have to give up as much. I say go for it.
by BigRedDog42 on Jun 5, 2009 1:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nick Johnson will not be there when the Red Sox need him
….the playoffs. Man this is a really bad move.
Plus, is Johnson gonna be happy DHing 80% of the time?
Everyone knows my opinion on this…if we are going to have to give up Bowden, I would much rather have Dunn.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 2:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I have an Eric Gagne feeling about this whole thing.
Maybe I am bias bc I REALLY like Adam Dunn and what I saw from him in the WBC, but Nick Johnson has BUST written all over his face.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sox
what the hell does the WBC have anything to do with? If I recall Lowrie and Chris Carter were our best hitters in the Spring, which seems to me as good a barometer as the WBC. If you want to go on “feelings” think you should instead ask fans of Arizona or Cincy if they were said to see him go. I suspect most were not too broken up. There are other reasons that make no sense aside from the ones we have been through. Dunn, I suspect, will have at least a short-term dropoff in the AL (and we need him short-term). The AL is much less a fastball leauge than the NL, and Dunn struggles with off-spead stuff. Johnson is a better contact hitter who has been in the AL East (and produced before).
“Maybe I am bias bc I REALLY like Adam Dunn and what I saw from him in the WBC, but Nick Johnson has BUST written all over his face.”
This has to be one of the least well-reasoned thoughts I have heard from you. Stick to the health argument-it least it has some merit.
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for the critique
The WBC was the first time I saw him bat and made me a believer. Adam Dunn is an EXCELLENT hitter. He works counts, sees pitches and punishes pitchers for mistakes. Its not his stats that impressed me, even though he killed, its his approach.
And to be fair you have got to acknowledge that Nick Johnson is in NO Way a 100% sure thing even if he stays healthy. Your arguments assume Nick Johnson will continue at his pace.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn’t need to continue at his current pace, his career stats show he is a solid offensive player.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jun 5, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well thats not really an agrument for Johnson
since Dunn is a solid offensive player and the lure of Johnson is his current pace.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is NOT the lure of Johnson.
The Lure of Johnson is his nearly 130 OPS+ when healthy over his career…
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I posted below
The Sox are already one of the top offensive teams in the league. If you subtract Papi and add a 130 OPS+ player, they’re vastly improved.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This argument could be made for many players.
It does not make Johnson more appealing than Dunn or Huff or whomever. Papi’s lack of production does nothing for anyone’s side.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
But the Dunn argument places a lot of stock in his HR ability. The Sox don’t necessarily need a HR threat.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, I think Dunn's approach is excellent but his power is most appealing
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except it's not.
Johnson works the count better, K’s less.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HR threat
Every team always needs another HR threat. Are you suggesting that we go for a lighter version of Dunn, which is Johnson, because we’re already hitting enough home runs? We could always hit more…
by Gnick on Jun 5, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
it is just that Johnson and Dunn have basically the same net offensive value. It is not that Johnson is a lite version of Dunn. Yes he hits fewer HRs, but he has a nearly identical wOBA, makes better contact and has played in the AL east before. The argument here is not that Johnson is better than Dunn, it is that he is similar in impact and likely much more cheaper in players +money+picks for next year…
by Buzzy on Jun 6, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And
If need be, Johnson has a legit glove. Dunnmakes Wily Mo Pena look like Willie Mays.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 6, 2009 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cheaper
Perhaps he would be slightly cheaper in terms of prospects, but we intentionally left lots of payroll flexibility, so if this would be our big deal I’m sure the extra money for Dunn wouldn’t be too much to handle. I’m not sure what you mean by picks, since Dunn would be more likely to garner type A status.
by Gnick on Jun 8, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
huh?
really? How many “available” players can you say this about? Maybe only Johnson, Thome and Dunn. And it makes Johnson the virtual equivalent of Dunn offensively (and better/worse in different ways).
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
point is that anyone would be an upgrade from Papi.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but we don’t really need another Papi to upgrade from Papi. Dunn is a good offensive player, that’s a given, but we simply don’t really need to pay another guy to belt HRs anymore, we can pay Johnson less than half as much to do what we need to do, get guys on base and make them score while working up the pitch count.
If money wasn’t a deterrent and we had clones of all our top prospects then Dunn is probably the way to go. But those things are issues, Dunn will cost more in terms of prospects because he is a HR hitter which is valued by many teams, we just don’t need it. His salary is too high for someone who would just hit. We could get Johnson for less and he would make less and then give the Sox time during the winter to sort through the FAs and maybe sign a guy to a couple year deal until we get Lars.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jun 5, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In truth this will all come down to what Washington asks for.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But who would they ask more for? Their “face of the franchise” (still funny to say about the Natinals) who is a 40 HR slugger, the guy the signed because they couldn’t get Tex and wanted to get someone to put people in seats? Or Nick Johnson, the solid offensive player, but not the face or the slugger for the team? They alienate their fans if they trade Dunn and don’t get much for him ( Buccos fans are irate over the McLouth trade). Dunn is the closest thing to an MLB star that they have on that team, Johnson isn’t as well known of a talent and should cost less.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jun 5, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
again RN,
if they want to unload Dunn’s contract he might be the same, but its just who they ask for.
Theo did not want to give up MDC or Bowden for Johnson, so if he is cheaper than that, I say sure do it. If the Mets get involved and run the price up, maybe the Red Sox look elsewhere.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But why would we want to eat it?
$12mil is just rediculous for what he does (or doesn’t do). That would be about 10% of what our payroll would ideally be. We can’t give 10% to a player who only hits HRs (which I maintain we don’t need to pay someone else to do).
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jun 5, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn
How does Dunn “only hit HRs”? His OBP this year is .391 and he’s slugging .553. I don’t understand why so many people dislike Dunn. He accomplishes the two primary goals of the hitter excellently, he gets on base at a very high rate and hits for tons of power. Also why would it be bad for him to “only hit HRs”, isn’t that the best possible result a hitter can have in a given at bat?
by Gnick on Jun 5, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
see above.
Dunn is a very good offensive player, but his offesnive impact is the same as Johnsons. He hits more HRs (a plus) but Ks way more (a minus). It is a wash. The argument is not that Johnson>Dunn, it is that Johnson is likely a far better value for a similar net product in terms of impact.
by Buzzy on Jun 6, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is Dunn really the “face of the franchise”? Hes been playing their for 2 months.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jun 6, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but
Nick Johnson has the same approach, and has seen more pitches per at bat than Dunn (in his career, not this year), and he K’s less, and he has played in the AL East, and he can have utility in the field, and we get something for him when he goes (this year), and he is cheap, and he will likely cost less in terms of prospects…
but I fully agree about the health ;-).
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They will probably cost the same in prospects
Nats need money and they are rebuilding. Unloading Dunn’s contract is very appealing when you have to come up with $30 million in signing bonuses/contracts.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A question
Assuming Washington’s FO aren’t a bunch of idiots, they had to know that they had the #1 draft pick this year—right? Yet, they still felt they needed to spend $20 million on Dunn for 2 years. Why do they need salary relief now?
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe they knew they could trade him for some good prospects mid-season? They are paying him more the second year. Could make sense.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jun 6, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You need to watch more baseball, lawyer boy. :)
And, again, Johnson sees more pitches per PA than most batters, including Dunn.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adam Dunn P/PA – 4.32
Nick Johnson P/PA – 4.15
What am I missing?
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn, my bad.
Completely glossed over Dunn’s name. I take back all I said, except the stuff about Dunn still K’ing a lot.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think we give up Bowden for either one.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jun 5, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
solid but...
I don’t think he’s the best fit for the Sox. So we need a power bat and a guy whose best year was 23 HR’s. Johnson may be solid (when healthy) I would look for someone with a little more power.
by boondock_saint812 on Jun 5, 2009 2:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bay, Youk, Drew, Tek, Lowell provide all the power we need. We don’t even need Papi to blast it out of the park like he used to, we just need people who can get on base and Johnson is very good at doing just that and has a little power of his own.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jun 5, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
we have been through this before. Dunn is not a superior offensive ballplayer to Johnson, home runs or not…
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the Dunn v. Johnson conversation has gone on in at least 4 different locations.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jun 5, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I posted this elsewhere
but here it is again:
Currently, the Sox are 4th in the AL in runs scored per game. They are 4th in HR and tied for 3rd in team OPS. All of this was done with no production form their DH. If they had a healthy Lowrie and an average DH, they’d be in the top two or three.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong
they need someone who cah hit from the DH spot. Read Drugs’ critique of this point on the other thread. This means that Lowell and Youk can DH and rotate, and that when Lowrie comes back we have 3 guys who can play 1b (Youk, Lowrie, Lowell) and 3 guys who can play 1b (Youk, Kotsay and Johnson). Imagine who much better that would have been in the playoffs last year when Lowell went down…
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That first 1b supposed to be a 3B?
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not necessarily
Youk has already missed 14 games due to injury and Mike Lowell is coming off hip surgery. A trade for Johnson gives them insurance against future injuries. A trade for Dunn ties up extra money at DH.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly, I don’t trust Dunn out on the field, Johnson can give us decent production in the lineup and spell Youk and Lowell on the field.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jun 5, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Sox don't trust Dunn in the field either..
When the Sox played at Riverfront Stadium last year, the management was seriously looking over Dunn’s fielding. They weren’t impressed. One reason they didn’t even consider him during the off season…
I am guessing it is going to take a middle reliever and a position player like Baldelli to snag Dunn. I think the player I would aim at is Russell Branyan, 1b of the Mariners. They can probably put him in right field in Baldelli’s role as utility player.
I think the Sox should be thinking of trading for an outfielder/dh than a 1b/dh or a Victor Martinez super hybrid.
I guess Johnson is okay, it is more what in the world will the Sox give up for him.
by superferret on Jun 5, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would Washington want Rocco?
It’s going to take Bowden + two good prospects or young players on the roster to get Dunn.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 6, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
again a non-agrument
Nick Johnson is a bigger health risk that Youk and Lowell. If we are talking hypothetically well what if Youk and Johnson get injured? Red Sox would be out a 1B and DH. The chance of injury works for Dunn bc he has never to my knowledge had problems.
With Dunn you would have Kotsay at 1b and dunn as DH regardless of injury. With Johnson you have nothing at DH. The only scenario that works in your favor is if Lowell gets injured, then Youk can play 3B and Kotsay would be what ? DH? Still not that appealing and comes down to your impression of who is a better hitter.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding Johnson's injuries
What are the odds that Johnson will sustain another fractured hand, femur, or cheekbone? Those are the injuries that caused him to miss the bulk of time he was on the DL.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please
no Dunn in the field. Even at 1b he is a total laibility-they guy put up like a -20 UZR/150 his last full year at 1b. And it is not a non-issue. It is not like Johnson is the only guy who could go down. At the very least the possibility of a healthy Nick Johnson spelling an injured Lowell via coverage at 3b by Lowrie/Youk mitigates to a degree the issue with has past health concerns…
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn is not going to play the field. come on Buzzy you know that.
He will be Papi.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another question
If Dunn will be another Papi, a player sans glove, what will you do with Papi?
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn't have a buyout option
You’d have to release him, which may affect the clubhouse. Papi is very popular with his teammates. This isn’t fantasy baseball.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
at this point
papi has only sentimental value. although i can’t help but still hope against hope he’ll get out of it. i don’t know if we can release him. it’s so delicate
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then they will eat his contract and release him.
This maybe emotional but its not that difficult financially.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats the issue
hes on the bench at that point
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
at that point
we will officially have given up on papi. thats a little scary isn’t it?
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah it will be sad
but its like boxing, even Muhammad Ali got his ass kicked. Such is sports. Its why I love College Hoops. Players leave but go to a far better place, the NBA. I went to UNC and we won this year….WHOOO HOOO!!!, while it was sad seeing Tyler Hansbrough go, I am happy he will see him playing in the NBA.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whats the better place
that papis going to?
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
down in DM
i don’t think they even have birth certificates, never mind old folks homes. thats why we dont know how old he really is.
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't need a birth certificate to get into a retirement home.
And he could pay to buy his own.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hansbrough
Will you really be that happy to see Hansbrough sit on the end of the Bobcats bench for 11 years before retiring with a career average of 4.7 points per game?
by Gnick on Jun 8, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have to..
the AL East is sort of like the “Group of Death” that World Cup Soccer has during its tournament. Instead of the Netherlands, Argentina and Cote D’Ivoire, we have the Sox, MFY and the other manic depressive team in the division, I will say for argument sake, Toronto. Papi should get his number retired by the Sox, because he did something that Yaz or Williams didn’t do, beat the MFY, no humiliate them and win two World Series.
However, Papi’s mechanics are all screwed up. He also is cheating at bats and swings, which just makes it easier for pitchers to strike him out, because he has to swing early, so they just throw him a breaking ball and he is all flustered.
You can’t trade Papi, I would give him until the end of June, then release one of the greatest Red Sox players in history. We have the MFY in town this Tuesday, and they aren’t going to settle for a three game sweep like last time.
by superferret on Jun 5, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
its just the way it is.
business of pro sports. I agree if Papi does not turn around by July 1, he will be released.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IF we get Dunn or Johnson
Papi has played his last day in Fenway.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is a huge problem. One way or another he still gets paid but it seems like there is no easy way. Even if we got a Nick Johnson what happens to Papi? Does he get “sick” and go on the DL or do we designate him? Ask him to retire? It sucks, he has been the heart of the team for quite a few years now and will always have a place in my heart and it does pain me to talk about replacing him.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jun 5, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
With Johnson and Papi, you’d get rid of Kotsay and hope Baldelli holds up (otherwise JVE is your 4th OF). That way, you only have one player without a glove (Papi fills in and pinch-hits). With Dunn, you’d have to release Papi (you can’t carry two non-gloves), and deal with the consequences.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
JvE's not that bad of an option.
I’d like to see him as our 5th OF if Kotsay has to replace Baldelli at any point.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys argue
that Dunn is not the right choice because of his lack of defensive skill and versatility but then want Papi to be on your bench with no position except PH or fill in DH?
Does not matter who the Red Sox get, Papi is done, exception being JJ Hardy or maybe V. Mart, but again why keep Papi, he does nothing for your team.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where have I said this?
I want to keep Papi and give him the chance to turn it around, yes, but if we can get him to accept a demotion or retire, I’d be even happier. If he’s forced to leave, it’s gonna be hard on a lot of us, me included. Expect several “OMG Papi was so good to us, let’s wallow in pity for him and remember the better days” type posts when it finally happens.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
False argument
Papi is already on the team. Dunn isn’t. The Sox would have to trade to get him. Dunn is a one-dimensional player. I’d be shocked if Theo acquired him (unless he came cheap). When the Sox first got Ortiz, they gave up nobody to get him and signed him cheaply. Papi turned into one of the best hitters in the AL, so they re-signed him. Dunn is nowhere near what Ortiz was in his prime, makes roughly the same salary, and will likely cost two or three good prospects.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasnt talking about Dunn
I was saying that having a player that gives you nothing is a waste of a spot on the bench.
This has nothing to do with Dunn, its a business decision. regarding Papi Papi will not be put on the bench or demoted, he will be DLed or released.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to go on a totally random tangent but this quote is awesome.
“John Smoltz told Heyman that he once turned down $53MM from the Yankees to sign with the Braves for $30MM.”
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 3:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I want to hug this man.
Esp. if he can convince Glavine to join the Sox as a AAA pitcher until the rosters expand.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
never thought of that
Yeah id take Glavine if he wants to go to AAA and work on his stuff until Aug.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we must...
[Theo pulls out a full contract, ready to signed, from his back pocket]
Glavine: You always carry one of these? I mean, it’s kinda thick.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
300 game winners don't settle for AAA
Glavine is washed up, he will probably retire. He isn’t going to go down to AAA. He is a HOF player, he isn’t going to spend his summer at Pawtucket, and taking a bus to Scranton.
by superferret on Jun 5, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stereotyping much?
He still wants to play, and I could see him at least pitching in the minors starting in August to get ramped up for the roster expansion.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 6, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are enough contenders that need pitching.
Especially if he would go cheap. Phillies maybe?
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jun 6, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I am stereotyping a 300 game winning pitcher, all 24 of them...
He either is going to be assured a spot on a Major League team rooster or he is going to retire, he is not going to pitch in AAA with no assurance of a spot.
Like all MLB pitchers, Glavine spent years in the Minors, he has no need to repeat it, especially since it appears he would be hammered in the Minors.
The most likely course is he will retire.
Wanting to pitch at the Major League level and not having the tools to pitch at Major League level are two different things.
by superferret on Jun 7, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just saying, he's been a great team player for his entire career, IIRC.
He was really mad that the Bravos betrayed him – I think he’d love to join his friend, Smotlz, and prove to Atlanta that he can help a team in search of the playoffs.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 7, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You do realize Glavine has been pitching in the minors this year, don’t you?
by Gnick on Jun 8, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shh...
He’s crazy – see his icon?
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 8, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I fail to see how we match with the Nats
They’ll want at least Bowden for Johnson – and they can go fuck themselves if that’s the price.
"Hey we got a lot in common here... I'm gonna rape you"
by MerryGoByeBye on Jun 5, 2009 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
True
But they’ll probably want more for Dunn.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a shame Bowden isn't still the Nats GM
Theo could probably talk him into trading Dunn for Papi, straight up.
by vlock1 on Jun 6, 2009 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give em a week or two
Pittsburgh already gave up, it’s only a matter of time before the Natinals accept that they aren’t making the playoffs and start hording prospects.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jun 5, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought they accepted that at the beginning of the season. :)
Plus, Boras could help us by demanding a load of cash for Strasburg.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
see that is the X factor to any trade with the Nats
Boras is going to hold Strasburg until the Nats pay him ridiculous amounts of money. That $12 million for Dunn becomes a positive for the Red Sox.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where does having to pay a DH who does nothing else $12mil become a positive for the Sox? We don’t need HRs out of the DH anymore. See way up there ^ that’s about 10% of our payroll going to one guy who can’t do anything other than hit DH for us. Not Theo’s MO anymore.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jun 5, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we don't need a great fielder in Dunn
we need a DH. we need a replacement for Papi.
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, we need a guy who can be the DH about 60% of time, and play another position or two to give other guys some rest.
Johnson can spell Youk at 1st, allowing Youk to DH or play 3B while Lowell DH’s.
We don’t NEED homers anymore – we are stacked with guys that are constantly on base, and all of them are at least minor power threats. All we need is a guy who can keep the chain reaction of base runners going.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do we NEED a guy that can spell other players when Papi didn’t do that?
by Randy Booth on Jun 5, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because Youk is turning into the balls of the team.
Everyone goes after him when they try to send us a message. And Lowell’s getting old and the time off would help him recover more from his hip issues.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 6, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
although i agree
that it would be nice to have more versatility with johnson
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im not gonna get into the pros and cons of Dunn
my point was that the Nats are not a big spending team and have to come up with a HUGE nut in $30 million for Strasburg and #10 pick. Dunn’s 2010 contract if shed helps in making these deals, which is a positive for the Red Sox in a negotiation.
So his price in prospects could be lowered.
Theo signed Papi? What was Papi’s position? DH right? Seems like Theo makes exceptions for certain situations.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Nats' payroll is around $60 million
With Dunn, they have $29 million in salary obligations for next year. They don’t have to move Dunn.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 6, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Papi
signed for 1 million, and whe he proved to be a rediculous offensive player (like 160 OPS level, WAYYYY better than Dunn) got the $…
by Buzzy on Jun 6, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you avoid the point
that Papi cannot play the field, his salary is irrelevant.
DD, so with the Nats adding a possible $30 million which is half of their current payroll you cannot see why jettisoning $12 million is not appealing to them?
Again, I believe you guys fail to see your own arguments. You state that 12 million is too much for a DH of Dunn’s caliber, you state their 60 million payroll but fail to believe that the Red Sox taking a 12 million contract from a team who is not a big spending team would not be a positive in negotiations?
Getting rid of an over paid player to help pay for a chunk of money half of their current salary obligations does not work for both parties…?
You cannot mix the arguments, I am not debating Dunn as a player I am debating his salary as a negotiation tool that will eventually bring the price for Dunn down as well as the fact that if Theo wants a pure DH he will sign or trade for one.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 6, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Losing Nick Johnson, Ron Belliard, and Dmitri Young, gives Washington $12 million in free payroll. Only one for those players is currently making a contribution to the Nats. Dunn’s contract isn’t the dead weight you think it is, SoxAcumen. Washington can afford him next year. In fact, they probably back-loaded the contract because of the payroll flexibility they’ll have in 2010.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 7, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very true
I totaly agree with DD and Rogue on the Johnson/Dunn controversy, Jonhson is the way to go because:
He cost less in a trade,
He gives more versatility and the possibilty to rest guys without downgrading your defense
He fits in the offensive philosophy of the team because he takes a lot of pitchs per PA
We Don’t need a big time slugger, we have a LOT of OBP machines, if we can’t get someone who can hit for avg, we’ll produce a lot of runs: some 2B will do the job
And by the end of June, The natinals FO will be very happy to have Masterson in a straight up deal
and like you said, They can go fuck themselves if they want Bowden!!
The only Red Sox fan in a country where nobody cares about basball!
by radiohix on Jun 5, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You would rather give up Masterson than Bowden?
I don’t agree with that, Masterson is proven.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
can johnson
play defense? im not totally sure. and to me Masterson is tradeable. much more so than bard or buch or bowden or any of them
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying that he'll play defense evrey day but 2 times a week maybe to let Lowell rest his hip when the season wears on
The only Red Sox fan in a country where nobody cares about basball!
by radiohix on Jun 5, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
but is he gonna be a butcher when he’s out there? after seeing us lose games this year and watching that detroit 8th inning the other day, i value defense much more than i used to.
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's usually pretty good:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=828&position=1B#fielding
Don’t know why he’s struggling this season.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's a 2 pitches reliever and WAY overrated 'cause of his "versatility"
Bowden could be a solid number 3 starter plus he’s a valuable chip for a mega trade if the Padres would trade AG this winter (which will happen)
The only Red Sox fan in a country where nobody cares about basball!
by radiohix on Jun 5, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And?
Bowden has been great in his two appearances, and could become a #2 pitcher.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have no idea what Bowden will do in the bigs
but Masterson has pitched in big games against the Yankees, Angels and Rays and succeeded. Bowden is a prospect. There is far more of a sample proving Masterson’s value than Bowden.
Could be a #2 pitcher, Masterson has and is successful in the MLB.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree to disagree?
B/c it appears you’re in agreement with Matzushocka about the value of prospects.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 6, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that prospects are valuable
but I also believe that players who prove themselves in MLB situations, if everything is relatively equal, are more valuable than prospects.
Bowden is very nice, but Masterson has been in the playoffs and succeeded. I just think experience and knowing that he will compete at a major league level means more than what “could be” or what the scouts might think a prospect has potential to become.
This is why I was not in favor of trading the Jon Lester Package for Johan Santana and would of jumped to trade Clay Buchholz in a package.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 6, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't have done either.
And you said,
if everything is relatively equal, are more valuable than prospects.
They aren’t equal, because Masterson isn’t going to be more than a long relief/spot start guy, while Bowden will be a #4 guy at least, prolly a #2-3, possibly an ace.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 6, 2009 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
on what we'd give up for Johnson...
NOT DELCARMEN. He is our SU man of the future, and maybe an elite closer. if that is what they’re asking for, which it is, then we can forget about it
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 3:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I love MDC
But he is out 6th inning reliever.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MDC
has been so good this year. he could be part of closer by committee if paps can’t pull it together. i think its not worth it for johnson.
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he isn't being used that way
You have to give up something to get something. Bowden and Buchholz project as starters, and are therefore more valuable (as starters > relievers – even closers). Bard may end up being better than MDC. The simple fact is the Sox have a deep pen. They can afford to move MDC, even if I’d be sorry to see him go.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad Paps isn't gonna be cheap for long.
Or we’d jettison him to get Johnson.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theo can give the Nationals FO the "godfather offer"
Masterson for Jonhson!
The only Red Sox fan in a country where nobody cares about basball!
by radiohix on Jun 5, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
*Masterson for Jonhson
The only Red Sox fan in a country where nobody cares about basball!
by radiohix on Jun 5, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MLBTR Red Sox rumor
According to ESPN.com’s Buster Olney the Braves are “in conversation with the Red Sox” about Brad Penny, who is pitching better as the season progresses. The Red Sox have been scouting Jeff Francoeur, who the Braves may be interested in moving, in part because he makes over $3MM this year and the Braves are watching their payroll carefully.
by SoxAcumen on Jun 5, 2009 4:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
thats the other possibility
francouer has major potential, and i have no qualms with parting with penny.
plus francouer is incredibly durable. hes played 162 games twice in conssecutive years.
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
first of all
wily mo wasnt that bad for us. in 2006 he hit .300 with 11 homers in less than 300 at bats. then next year in limited playing time he was bad. whatever.
francouer has had two great years, way better than anything pena has done.
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
plus
we got chris carter for wily mo, who should be DHing for us right now.
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You sir, are crazy.
Both Frenchy and Pena had insane issues comprehending OBP – Frenchy’s even on a shirt for it.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
please
don’t argue this. However you are reaching your conclusions, they are incorrect.
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what conclusions?
im just giving numbers and facts. and besides, wily mo is beside the point.
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wily Mo was awful
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes he was… remember the few times they played him out in LF? I’ve never been so scared watching someone run down a routine fly ball.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Jun 5, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
And by UZR, Wily Mo is better than Dunn.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
I’m now officially convinced that Dunn fielding in Fenway would be the apocalypse.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Check out the highlights of last night's Mets-Nats game
Dunn butchered two plays.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 6, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ESPN.com highlights don't show it.
And MLB’s highlights aren’t going to, obviously. You know anywhere else that might have them?
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 6, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
It’s probably too late for MLB Newtwork.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 6, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, darn.
I’ll have to wait for someone on YouTube to violate content rights, I guess.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 6, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
plus the braves just got nate mclouth,
which is gonna force out one of their outfielders. francouer has been bad for two years now, so his value is low. another low risk high reward deal.
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CF
The Braves have sent there rookie CF back down to the minors…
~ ROLL TIDE ~
GO SOX!!
by Bama Sox on Jun 5, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The guy with the PED story?
Really?
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what conclusions?
im just giving numbers and facts. and besides, wily mo is beside the point.
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 4:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the 2
“great years” that you are referring to are OPS+ of 83 and 103. Maybe league average. And that is the best you will see of him. He has been totally exposed.
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
And the Braves are a smart organization. They don’t just dump valuable palyers. Francouer has little value.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 5, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree
his ops is too low. but for brad penny? its either him or a non-hitting SS. either deal would be acceptable to me
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
other
“sources” are reporting that both deals are not likely, so we will just have to wait and see…
by Buzzy on Jun 5, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
Braves don’t want Penny.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about
Penny for FranKouer (spelled with K on purpose) and use Rocco and/or Kotsay for our DH (Dunn/Nick/AG, etc…)
~ ROLL TIDE ~
GO SOX!!
by Bama Sox on Jun 5, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh
What about Adam Dunn? He would be a good pickup but in rallies he would be more of a buzz kill than Buzz Killington
Big Numbers
by homerun013 on Jun 5, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You funny.
For the name spelling and the trade proposal.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no doubt
it would be an improvement, but that doesnt mean it will be good.
by revived0103 on Jun 5, 2009 4:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
but it will be
We could give up some small talent. I don’t know what we should give thoguh
Big Numbers
by homerun013 on Jun 5, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am thinking Johnson
but he is almost a corner stone to the Nats, so it might cost like 2-3 prospects
Big Numbers
by homerun013 on Jun 5, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh.
I thought revived might had a reply fail.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about
Kearns? Could we get him for cheap?
Big Numbers
by homerun013 on Jun 5, 2009 5:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Eh.
He’s an average bat with a average glove. Why not just bring up JvE?
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 5, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“just say no to Nick Johnson”
DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!
by matzushocka45 on Jun 5, 2009 9:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Any particular reasons why?
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 6, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
scrap parts
DO NOT BRING JACK WILSON OR NICK JOHNSON TO BOSTON !!!
by matzushocka45 on Jun 6, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Que?
So that we can keep “scrap parts”?
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 6, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a thought.
If we get a one year rental in Johnson, and Papi is in fact done, then well need a DH next season.
Here’s the list of available FAs. A couple names that jump out at me are Abreu and Thome. Either could fit the bill for a one year signing.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
by tommy.otm on Jun 5, 2009 9:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep
And they’d likely come cheaper than $12 million.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jun 6, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Question for Buzzy and Drugs:
I alluded to it up above. Around here we seem to have come to a conclusion that Nick Johnson (when healthy) is just as good a hitter as Adam Dunn. He is cheaper and signed for fewer years. Given his contract, a bunch of people (me included) think that he is actually more valuable than Adam Dunn. Then why are people operating under the assumption that it will take less to get him than Adam Dunn? If we come to these conclusions, then the Nats must have as well.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jun 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The contract thing makes him more valuable to us, not to them, I think is what we've arrived at.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 7, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But why?
If anything, smaller contracts are more valuable to teams like the Nats because we have the economic advantage.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jun 7, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But, they need Dunn because he's a more marketable player.
They don’t have the giant fanbase, and they need him to keep fans aboard until they develop their young guys. Johnson will be gone in a few months, whereas they have Dunn for next year, when Strasburg will definitely be up, and their other young guys will be better too.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 7, 2009 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Injury history too.
While some have been freakish, Dunn has definitely proven more durable.
Not that it’s much of a difference, but Johnson is older too.
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
by Allen Chace on Jun 7, 2009 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the biggest
reason is likely health. He missed nearly all of 07/08 with the Nats. While many of his injuries have been of the freak variety, it has correctly been pointed out by SoxAcumen that he has had back problems. I think the other reason is that I would guess the Nats value Dunn more. They payed him a lot of money. He is a much bigger Hr threat, which is often overvalued. I think that there are still “market inefficiencies” as they pertain to players like Dunn and Johnson. Most bad teams, even in the NL where both have to play the field, would value Dunn over Johnson even if Johnson never had health issues. I would bet that at least half of the GMs out there do not use sabranalysis, or don’t rely on it that much. The look at things like HRs, etc. and see that Dunn is a 40/100 guy. Theo has always taken advantage of this. From Ortiz to Mueller to Millar…
If I could have Dunn for the same price in players/money as Johnson, I would take Dunn. But even then it is only because of the health issues. Johnson is taylor made for Fenway. Dunn on the otherhand is not. His contact rates are poor enough that the most of the OPS inflating aspects of Fenway would be lost on him. His power would still translate, but the lack of foul ground, etc would not be of much help. He has not really played in the AL before, and the style of pitching would require a short-term adjustment (think Drew). Also, while Johnson is fragile, so are Lowell and Youk. Until last year Youk was always known to wear down at the end of the season, has already missed a bunch of time this year, and gets hit by a ton of pitches. Lowell looks like he is 40 in the field. I am sure the Sox value the extra buffer that this gives with Johnson, even if he himself is fragile.
It is funny, that while Jhonson’s name has been mentioned in many rumors, Dunn’s has not. While Dunn’s name is used in the context of a player the Sox could target who fits the Sox OBP philosophy and plays on a non-contending team, his name has never really been mentioned in any specific trade context. I think it is clear that the Nats value him significantly more than Johnson.
by Buzzy on Jun 7, 2009 12:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If it is true that Johnson will cost less in terms of prospects, then I’d go for him for all of the reasons everyone has mentioned. The question, I guess, is how much they will hold out for. How tradable will the Nats make these guys?
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
by BTLove on Jun 7, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn's salary
People keep saying that Dunn gets $12 million a year, but this isn’t completely true. He will get $12 million in 2010, but he’s only getting $8 million this year, so if we traded for him we could still add someone else down the line this year.
by Gnick on Jun 8, 2009 11:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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