Youkilis NOT an all star

by 5percenter on Jun 30, 2009 4:53 PM EDT Comment 75 comments

The fans of Boston continue to stuff the ballot box with hometown favories instead of who is most deserving.

Justin Morneau is batting 309 with 18 HR's

Miguel Cabrera is batting 330 with 16 HR's

Kevin Youkilis is such a force offensively that he doesn't start in my fantasy league. I'm in a ten team league and you tell me which one of these guys you would sit for Youkilis

Pujols, Cabrera, Berkman, Fielder, Morneau, Teixeira, Gonzalez, Pena, Howard, Martinez

Youkilis has numbers that are more comparable to Todd Helton. That would be fine if we were talking about Helton in his prime. After all this is Youkilis peaking and Helton dwindling. As far as career goes Youkilis isn't in the same conversation as Helton.

So I ask,.....how does a player who is not even one of the 10 best at his position get to be an all star. The so called knowledgeable fans of Boston is how. Your sports opinion can't be taken seriously with such homerish antics.

You want to talk about defense. I agree Youkilis is better than some, maybe most. I'll tell you something else. Some of those guys are better than you think as well.

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Oh really?

Based on the statistics you presented, Youk matches up fairly evenly with the other leading contenders. But why don’t we look at OPS, which is a better measure of offensive value? Youk’s is 1.008. Morneau’s is .960, Cabrera’s is .953, Martinez’s is .922, Teixeira’s is .962, and Pena’s is .925. So by OPS, Youk is way ahead of each of his competitors.

How about some fielding statistics? Youk has a UZR/150 of 10.7 at first. Morneau’s is -6.6, Cabrera’s is 6.9, Martinez’s is -2.5 (plus he spends half his time at catcher, not 1B), Teixeira’s is -3.1, and Pena’s is -4.8. So defensively, Youk has been superior to each of his competitors.

I guess that’s how Youk can be an all star — by outplaying all his competitors at 1B on both offense and defense based on measures that tell us more about performance than the traditional measures Luddites get stuck on.

by RSNexile on Jun 30, 2009 5:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Oh, and don't forget Youk plays a pretty mean 3B, too.

by lone1c on Jun 30, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 30, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and Cabrera

3rd base and left field

I see things you don't see.

by LouieTheLip on Jul 1, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Umm... Cabrera wasn't great at 3B. He was actually below average most years, by UZR.

He was always below average in the OF, at any spot.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

Throw BA and RBI and HR and Slugging right out the window and focus on the one stat he happens to be leading in,…..at the moment. It’s not like he’s a league leader in this particular stat year in and year out. He just happens to be leading at the moment.

He has never hit 30 HR’s in a season, and may never. He had a lifetime 175 avaerage going in to last season and all of the sudden he’s an elite. All I know if I were starting a team I’d pick about 10 guys to play first before I got to him.

I see things you don't see.

by LouieTheLip on Jul 1, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The “one stat” you speak of is the one that is most indicative of performance. He is second among 1B’s in wOBA and OPS which correlate best with runs. Oh, and he never had a lifetime .175 AVG.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jul 1, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Assumed that he meant .275, which seems possible.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OPS = OBP + SLG, Louie.

Includes BA, in a way.
RBI are to contextual – can be changed dramatically by a bad lineup around a batter or poor hitting w/ RISP.
wOBA includes pretty much everything.
Can you become the MFY GM, please? Would make things a lot easier.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, let's.

Because when we’re talking about who’s producing and who’s not, those stats are largely inconsequential in the face of wOBA and its derivatives. It’s not using the convenient stat, it’s using the correct stat. It takes meaningless drivel like RBI and applies obvious logic to it (IE: How often are their people on ahead of him? How fast are they? If 2 players go 1-2 with a double, guy A got out with runners on and doubled without, and guy B doubled with runners on a got out with bases empty, does that make player B a better player?) in order to basically reduce and remove all the useless happenstance and produce a number that best quantifies that player’s offensive contributions. Not who has the best team. Not who can hit the ball the farthest the most number of times. Not who happens to play against loaded pitching and iron-tight defenses. But which player can, separated from that random chance, produce the most offense.

There’s a reason why the best GMs are the ones who follow the SABR gospel, and why so many more are chasing after them. Those largely meaningless stats are obsolete. Get with the times, or get ready to have nobody take you seriously.

by USG on Jul 2, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

Teh Dumb is strong in your comment.

Youk leads in OPS, which is a far superior measure of offensive production than BA — which is inherently included in OPS anyway — RBI, HR, or slugging — which is also inherently included in OPS. And he also has been the best defensive player of all the candidates named.

Now granted, that’s this year. But the All-Star Game isn’t a lifetime achievement award. You go to the game because you’re one of the best at your position based on performance this year. If you aren’t one of the best this year, then you don’t deserve to go.

So maybe Youk isn’t the 1B I’d pick if I could take any 1B. But overall, his numbers make him the best 1B in the American League based on performance this year. That makes him the most deserving pick to start the All-Star Game. Teixeira might get it anyway, but that’s what happens when MFY fans and people with less understanding of the game than a common rodent jam the ballot box.

by RSNexile on Jul 2, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I play Fantasy baseball too, but I'm not deluded enough to think that fantasy production equals actual baseball production.

Fantasy values AVG, HR, R, RBI and SB, while those of us that understand baseball look at other things like OPS and wOBA. wOBA has him second to only Albert Pujols in all of baseball. If you want to talk about fantasy baseball, I bet SBN has a site for that, but we talk about actual baseball here.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jun 30, 2009 5:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

+1

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 30, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They do.

Something like Fake Teams or something.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 30, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes in Actual Baseball

There are 10 better offense players and I just named them.

Pujols, Cabrera, Fielder, Berkman, Teixeira, Martinez, Gonzalez, Morneau, and Howard.

I would take youkilis over Pena however, and delgado, and Helton, but not the others. Actual baseball he’s not one of the elite

I see things you don't see.

by LouieTheLip on Jul 1, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Okay, for one, why is everyone calling VMart a 1B? He's still a catcher for now - more starts there.

Plus, Youk would be on the AL All Star team, so take off the NL guys.
Now we have 3 guys left – Miggy, Teix, Morneau.
Let’s compare them:
Player – WAR
Youk – 3.3
Miggy – 2.8 (tied with Branyan)
Morneau – 2.6
Teix – 2.4
For shits and giggles:
Pena – 1.9
Morales – 1.4
Konerko – 1.2

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You obviously do not take fielding into account. By UZR/150, Youk has been the best so far this year. He projects to be almost 20 runs better than Fielder on the year. That is 2 full wins. He is a better hitter and fielder this year than everyone you list except Pujols.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jul 1, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who, by all accounts and measures, is most likely not human, and therefore should not be allowed to play baseball.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

I like the comment

“You want to talk about defense. I agree Youkilis is better than some, maybe most. I’ll tell you something else. Some of those guys are better than you think as well.”

Well reasoned and well supported! As is the blank statement of Teixeira’s and Pena’s name with no supporting argument. First rate stuff. But who cares about the all-star game. What team has the best record in the AL?

by Buzzy on Jun 30, 2009 5:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

First off, this guy has been banned.

Checked his membership elsewhere, and he basically just trolls Pats Pulpit a lot (Fanposts like: “Cassel a Fraud”, “Go Colts!”, and one in which he says he loathes Wes Welker for keeping his most hated team in the race. Oh, and this little line “I’m a Yankee fan living near Boston.” on Pinstripe alley.

That being said, I don’t think it looks good to erase what would be a perfectly good post if it had any truth behind it. So, for the sake of not appearing entirely fascist: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=1b&stats=bat&lg=al&qual=y&type=6&season=2009&month=0

Youkilis, despite missing a fair number of games, is outproducing all other 1B except for V-Mart, who I don’t really know where he’s eligible according to the all-star votes. And let’s not forget that his production is that high DESPITE missing a fair few games in the middle.

In short, he’s just been that damn good.

by USG on Jun 30, 2009 5:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

VMart gets less positional runs adjustment because of his time at Catcher.

So, really, Youk is a better 1B than him as well, it would seem.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 30, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you can ban me

I have 15 screen names

I see things you don't see.

by LouieTheLip on Jul 1, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

IP Ban dumbass.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This

You want to have constructive conversation, you can. But there’s a difference between that and trolling

by USG on Jul 2, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Have you posted the same thing about Mark Teixeira on Pinstripe Alley?

I believe he and Youk are the top two in the voting.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 30, 2009 6:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

actually

Youkilis doesn’t bother me so much he’s a hell of a player. I just think that there can be an arguement made against him,….and i did that. However the lobbying for wakefield truly bothers me!

I see things you don't see.

by LouieTheLip on Jul 1, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This guy is a joke!

I guess that’s normal when you call your self a five percenter and because this blog doesn’t discuss politics I’ll pass on that!

The only Red Sox fan in a country where nobody cares about basball!

by radiohix on Jun 30, 2009 6:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

For the sake of accuracy:

We don’t discuss politics now, esp. after I managed to create a 300+ comment thread out of a FanPost suggesting Bush as the next commish. :)

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 30, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

MVP?

Which of those AL 1st basemen finished 3rd last year (quite unfair to include any NL players since they CAN’T play on the AL All-Star team)? Youk. As noted above, all the numbers must be considered. And looking at those numbers, Youk is in the All-Star conversation.

"simul justus et peccator"

by cavman on Jun 30, 2009 6:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Last Year

He was an all star!!! Monster season, yet he still couldn’t hit 30 hr’s. He was lifetime 279 going in to last season and had he had another 13 hr and 278 season you would have been calling for his head

I see things you don't see.

by LouieTheLip on Jul 1, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not really.

We don’t need him to be a power guy. Plus, he’s already at 14 now, and got robbed at least twice, IIRC.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for the reminder.

I still had to vote for Youk.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Jun 30, 2009 9:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This is an absolute waste of space.

I’m trying to decide whether it’s even worth deleting or not.

"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"

by Allen Chace on Jun 30, 2009 10:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think it's not worth deleting

Our regular readers’ comments have already destroyed his argument, and while the piece is irritating, it doesn’t go as far as trolling, flaming, etc.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Jun 30, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

seems to me

people are enjoying my thread.

I see things you don't see.

by LouieTheLip on Jul 1, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who doesn't enjoy stress relief?

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

YOUKILIS SHOULD DEFINITELY BE AN ALLSTAR!

by Mike-Dub on Jun 30, 2009 11:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jun 30, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

dude

I’m a Yankee fan and even I can say this post is complete crap. I hate Youkilis with a passion, but I can’t with a straight face say he isn’t deserving of being an all-star.

by NumberSeven on Jul 1, 2009 1:52 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Teix deserves to be there to, as much as we'd hate to admit it.

He’s still a pretty damn good player, and the fan voting has been pretty accurate so far, what with the back and forths.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

so

Miguel Cabrera shouldn’t be the starting first baseman. Do you see the season he’s having.
Do you live in Boston. Didn’t think so, you have no idea how truly ridiculous these fans can be until you have. A Boston fan would never defend a Yankee fan so why are you hear kissing their azz when they give ZERO credit. You can’t watch the local news or read the local paper or watch the local game without a CHEAP SHOT at the Yankees. I’m not talking about stats. I’m talking about cheap shoots. They even make fum of the players wives and mothers. They are obsessed with the Yankees and you have no idea how bad it is. So do me a favor and don’t respond to my thread, but please don’t drfend these people who would pour beer on your childs head if he had a Yankee shirt on. I seen it happen. It goes beyond sports with them

I see things you don't see.

by LouieTheLip on Jul 1, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I grew up in the Boston area,

and I’ve never seen any of those things happen, especially in the last 5 years. It seems like you are obsessed.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jul 1, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Plus, I like that he goes on about how no one gives the MFY's credit...

As a comment right below mine, in which I acknowledged Teix as being almost as good.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Louie: i'm kissing anybody's "azz"

i merely stating my opinion.

i hate yankee fans who say ridiculous, non-reality-based things just as much as i hate red sox fans who do the same. i’ve been to boston plenty, i have seen how yankee fans are treated, being one myself. that doesn’t mean i can’t think that youkilis is a good player.

you rant about how it goes “beyond sports” for them and yet you sound just as bad. you’re not doing yankee fans any favors by posting this crap on a RED SOX blog.

by NumberSeven on Jul 1, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For the sake of clarity...

The subject line is supposed to be “not kissing,” right?

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 2, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This

Louie, this guy summed you up just about right. You are nothing but a hypocrite. Honestly, you never really have a legit case when you argue- you just throw around blatant lies.

I guess you do have a point though. In Boston, we pour beer on kid’s heads. Do you understand how stupid you sound? I was at a Yankees/Angels game once, and I witnessed a couple of Sox 13-15 year old Sox fans cheering for the Angels. A bunch of drunk Yanks fans walked up to the kids, ready to start a brawl before being stopped by other fans. Do I raid Yankee blogs claiming that all Yankee fans are child-beating belligerents? Do you see how that would seem a little silly?

by Charger567 on Jul 5, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, I guess he might not be an all star in your Yankee-fan fantasy league

but he should be, even there.

WAR 2009

Teixeira: 2.4 (6th among AL 1B)
Youkilis: 3.3 (1st among AL 1B)

Batting Runs
Teixeira: 20.4
Youkilis: 24.1

Fielding Runs
Teixeira: -2.0
Youkilis: +3.0

By ANY MEASURE, Youkilis has been the superior player in 2009. In the field AND at the plate. Teixeira has been above average – and in large part helped by playing in that clown little league stadium.

by alskor on Jul 1, 2009 2:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Good use of numbers.

Coulda sworn Teix was closer in WAR – maybe he fell off the pace.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I never saib Tex

I think Cabrera should be RUNNING AWAY with it

I see things you don't see.

by LouieTheLip on Jul 1, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's half a win behind Youk right now.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why?

Youk gets on base more, hits for higher slugging, is only two HRs behind him despite missing 15 gmes on the DL, is a better fielder, and in a pinch can play very goo third base.

Youk is an all-star. Deal with it.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Jul 2, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

1) I never responded to you. I made a new point. This wasnt a reply.

2) Youkilis has been better than Cabrera this year.

by alskor on Jul 2, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You did post it as a comment on a post he wrote.

It could be assumed that it was a reply, esp. since the beginning of it was directed at Louie.

But yes, you’re correct – Youk has been better than Teix, and both have been better than Cabrera.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 2, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The starter of this thread was 5percenter

I didnt realize the dbag has 19 screennames with which to try to work out his anger at the Yankees choking games away.

by alskor on Jul 2, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Got it.

Forgot that he posted that a while after. My bad.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 2, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But this ignores...

…Teixeira’s overwhelming advantage in TORP (tradition over replacement player) – a measure of how much better a player is because he is a Yankee. It’s one of those great Reality-Independent Statistics Louie likes so much.

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 2, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs

Ha. nice.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jul 2, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also, his PB content % is MUCH, MUCH higher.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 2, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can I say it?! can I say it?! can i say it?!

(long breath in) ………dousche

by Brad West on Jul 1, 2009 5:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

just like a Boston Fan

you have no arguement just name calling

I see things you don't see.

by LouieTheLip on Jul 1, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Though you don’t respond to the actual arguments…

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jul 1, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I respond often to arguments

There was no need to respond further, because my fellow OTM users already said what was necessary. Why be more redundant & say the same thing in different wording? I completely agree with RSNexile, USG, alskor, & bs.usf15… Why go further?

by Brad West on Jul 2, 2009 4:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and also your comment, BTLove, on the UZR

by Brad West on Jul 2, 2009 4:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I meant Louie, not you. The whole dousche thing seems pretty fair to me.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Jul 2, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh

haha, fair enough.

by Brad West on Jul 2, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What the hell?

USF?

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 2, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

USA

USA USA

by USG on Jul 2, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, no, no, he said my name was bs.USF15...

I’m hoping he isn’t taking a jab at UF by comparing them to USF, but maybe I’m just paranoid of UT fans. :)

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 2, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you should be :)

and i didn’t even notice that i typed “usf”, but we can say it’s intentional if you like….football season’s coming up

by Brad West on Jul 3, 2009 6:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can't get here soon enough.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 6, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Like how you say 'arguement'

It’s like ‘denouement,’ except since you’re saying it there’s no resolution of conflict and movement towards the conclusion.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Jul 1, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Umm... us Boston fans just gave you a load of "agruements."

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah, I typo'd something when I was mocking what I thought was a typo.

Damn, oh well.

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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Take a look at games played also!!!!

I agree w/ tommy.otm. Missing 15 gaes would have given you another 60-75 plate appearances, a bunch of AB’s 10-15 RBI, 3-5 HR, 10-15 BB’s, all of his current stats are relative to time played. Check him out in 15 more games and compare to the others at this point. You’ll be surprised.

by Aaron Favereaux on Jul 3, 2009 6:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

fantasy baseball?

Yes, Tex would be starting in a fantasy league. So would Manny Ramirez. That doesn’t mean he should be an all-star.

Tex missed a lot of time. That is not important when you are deciding who to start in a fantasy league, but it’s very important when deciding who the all-stars should be.

by RickD on Jul 5, 2009 5:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs