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Sox consider moving Ortiz down in the lineup, but where?

According to Extra Bases, Tito and Dave Magadan are considering moving Ortiz down in the lineup. The question now becomes: and then what?

Star-divide

The most likely scenario that I can see is the top 5 in the lineup becomes:

Ellsbury--MVP--Drew--Youk--Bay

But it remains what to do with Ortiz. Here are the issues I see:

  • For obvious reasons, Ortiz can't be put behind Bay. 
  • Ortiz behind Lowell would create such an overwhelming possibility of double plays that Bay, if left at fifth, would probably get IBB'd every time he came to the plate with first base open.
  • Ortiz in front of Ellsbury creates too much of a left-handers' glut in the lineup (at 9, 1, and 3).

Given all of these, I suspect that the best spot to move Ortiz to the 8 spot in the lineup rather than the 7 spot, so we have

Ellsbury--MVP--Drew--Youk--Bay--Lowell--Slowly Reanimating Corpse--Ghost--Shortstop

Other theories as to how this might play out are also welcome.

Poll
Where should Ortiz be moved in the lineup?
Sixth
9 votes
Seventh
17 votes
Eighth
32 votes
Ninth
6 votes
Other (includes leaving him in the third spot)
8 votes

72 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 35 comments

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Comments

Display:

Makes sense.

If he continues this trend he will not be in the lineup. It is hard to write that, but he really looks like by far the worst hitter in the lineup (by a fair margin). I really wonder how long the Sox wait. Would they really be patient enough to wait till the ASB?

by Buzzy on May 24, 2009 8:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes, unless his slump deepens even more than it has already

Sox management has tended not to make panic moves in-season. So, I have no doubt they’re exploring options, but I doubt they’ll pull the trigger at least for a few more weeks.

by lone1c on May 24, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree,

but just watching him, can you imagine him being a productive hitter?

by Buzzy on May 24, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not for a top-of-the-lineup guy

But as a #8 hitter, yes, I can. If he ends the year in the .240 range with 60-70 RBI, I think that would be acceptable for the #8 spot.

by lone1c on May 24, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Forget RBI

as that is not useful. He currently has a OPS of 618. Unless he can get that up to 750/800 it is a problem. It doesn’t matter that he is hitting 8th. The Sox have an offense that could be top 3 in runs. Currently we are 6th. If we even have last year’s Papi we are an extremely potent offense. But with a sub 700OPS Papi we are not (still good) and that is a problem even at 8-you don’t want your DH to have a marginal OPS. You can live with it when it is a good defensive SS or C, but not DH.

by Buzzy on May 24, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I figure if he gets to .240-.250

Then he’s hitting in the .270-.280 range for the rest of the year, with an OBP of about .330 or so. He only has to slug .420 to make it to an OPS of .750.

by lone1c on May 24, 2009 8:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

sounds easy

but looks really remote right now. I mean Kotteras looks like a better hitter right now.

by Buzzy on May 24, 2009 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There has been the occasional glimmer

That Papi was coming alive. However, I’m not bullish on the chances of it happening—-I only see a 50-50 shot (at best) of him getting there.

by lone1c on May 24, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you can find examples from time to time

of guys this young just totally falling off the face of the earth like this but it is really scocking nonetheless. I mean, just last year he had an 877 OPS and the equivalent of 32 HR/full season.

by Buzzy on May 24, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I also think

He’s closer to 35 or 36. (The Dominican has been notorious about lying about ages of recruits.)

by lone1c on May 24, 2009 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Totally.

I’ve long been suspect of his age.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on May 25, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's already been caught for that when he was a minor leaguer.

"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on May 27, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Delgado

Was in the exact same situation last year, and he really turned it on after the ASB, perhaps Big Papi will do the same.

by Gnick on May 25, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You don't move him down

in the lineup – you move him OUT of the lineup! It isn’t rocket science.

by ccthemovieman on May 24, 2009 9:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

How?

You can’t trade him without his consent: he’s a 10-5 player.
You can’t send him down to the minors without his consent.

The only options are to send him to the DL or release him. In either case, the Sox still owe him another $20 million or so for the next two years.

by lone1c on May 24, 2009 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Option #3 is benching him

and giving Rocco and (eventually) Kotsay more ABs.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on May 25, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's an option

But at the same time, probably the worst possible outcome of the three, because then you have a(nother) spot on the 25-man that is completely wasted.

by lone1c on May 25, 2009 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not totally benching him.

Just not writing his name in magic marker, rotating him in with the other guys, and seeing who gets hot.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on May 25, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can't bat him after Tek.

I just don’t think it’d work. It’d kill his confidence even MORE.

by USG on May 25, 2009 12:33 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

At this point, it's gotten beyond simple confidence issues.

There are no simple fixes.

The Sox have done everything they can to keep him in his comfort zone. At this point, something has to change. They also have to do what is best for the team. And right now, that means they should bat Tek ahead of Ortiz.

Lowell, Tek, and (a functional) Ortiz right now all have similar characteristics: aging, slow bats with some power. I’d rank them in the order Lowell, Tek, Ortiz. With Lowell and Ortiz hitting back-to-back, I believe there’s no incentive whatsoever to pitch to Bay if first base is open. You can just IBB him and take your chances on getting a double play ball from Lowell or Ortiz—-anything catchable in the infield will do the trick, thanks to their lack of speed. Tek doesn’t hit a lot, but he’s also not GIDP too much, either.

by lone1c on May 25, 2009 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can't IBB Bay because Lowell has some Pop, and Bay has some speed.

About half of Lowell’s hits are for extra bases this year. And Bay, while certainly no Ellsbury, is likely to score on anything that’ll get Lowell to second.

Let’s not forget about Drew, either. Use him to separate Lowell and Ortiz, or use him to separate Bay and Lowell. Either way he’s a good buffer.

by USG on May 25, 2009 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's call it the Red Sox conundrum!

 As stated so well by the above author:

“Lowell, Tek, and (a functional) Ortiz right now all have similar characteristics: aging, slow bats with some power.”

Well said!

by NG on May 25, 2009 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW, let's also add to the list the following category:

Pitching.

Not really sure what to say about the pitching age-related conundrum, but surely Wakefield and Smoltz would be in this group!

by NG on May 25, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would absolutely love Bay being IBB'd every time up

Getting a walk of any sort is always a great thing, so if you’re saying that Bay could get even more that would be fine with me.

by Gnick on May 25, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Waive the magic wand?

And teach him how to HIT singes and doubles not homeruns! All he wants to do every at bat is hit a homerun.

by beantownkid10 on May 25, 2009 12:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it's a teaching thing.

He’s like a assisted living patient who still believes they can do everything the way they used to. He’s going to need a big shock, like being moved into the last 3rd of the lineup before it finally hits him.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on May 25, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As much as i love Papi and what he has done for the Sox; I would not feel bad for a moment if he were to be released. If Papi hit were ever to hit the free agent market and be offered more than the Sox were willing to give him, he would leave.

Sports have become a “what have you done for me lately” business. I know as a sports fan often, we are delusional that this may not be the case. Sure, there are some players that will take a little less to stay, but its not typically the norm. Since Ortiz is not producing,the team is suffering, so these emotional decisions like batting him 3rd for the last 7 weeks are crap. I would be interested in knowing if the team had not been winning how long Francona would have stuck with Ortiz in the 3 slot?

Ortiz probably doesn’t care about you or I, so we shouldn’t care as much as we do about his career right? (even though I do, just not as much as some)

by matzushocka45 on May 25, 2009 9:57 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That's the kind of selfish attitude that started the movement to said "what have you done for me lately" business.

Just because it’s where we’re headed doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do – a team that cares about it’s players deserves more respect than a team that dumps a player if he goes 0-4 in a game.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on May 25, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gotta side with matzuschoka

Yes we care about the players, but don’t feel too sorry for them, Ortiz makes $12.5 million a year, placing him in the 99.99999% of the wealth in the world. He gets paid gross sums of money to hit a baseball, so I think his life should be fine either way.

That being said I would not be at all in favor of releasing Big Papi right now.

by Gnick on May 25, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True.

But loyalty is still important – at the very least it helps our reputation with other players.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on May 25, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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