What would you give up for Victor Martinez?
by ritz on May 18, 2009 3:17 PM EDT
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PrintInteresting article on MLBTR. Speculating on the idea of the Sox trading for V-Mart.
Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports sets up a new line of trade speculatin' today: he asks whether the Indians might be willing to take offers on catcher/first baseman Victor Martinez in the near future. The Indians would have to fall out of contention first (they're currently 7.5 games out), and even then it'd be a long shot. Martinez, 30, is hitting a robust .401/.478/.632 in 178 plate appearances this year. He has $4.3MM more coming this year and an easily-decided $7MM club option for 2010.
Rosenthal says the Red Sox already inquired on Martinez about a month ago. While "premium players on both sides" were discussed, "the talks failed to progress." Rosenthal speculates on names such as Clay Buchholz, Daniel Bard, and Lars Anderson.
Rosenthal doesn't mention them, but the Mets could be a nice fit for V-Mart if Carlos Delgado's injury puts him out for several months.
My question is, what would you give up to aquire him? Personally, I have always loved the way this guy hits. Unfortunately, it appears he is more of a DH/1B at this point than a catcher. If Papi's struggles continue, he would be a nice fit to add protection in a lineup that appears to become thinner and thinner (Youk on the D/L, Papi's struggles, Nick Green). If Bard continues to progress it probably leaves MDC as the odd man out in the pen. How does MDC/Bowden or Bucholz/Carter? This is of course truly speculation, I am guessing it would take more, but I have always been nervous about trading prospects since the Hanley deal.
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He is a good hitter. But has never posted a full season of 900OPS, is 30, has a recent injury history, and will not be playing much catcher from here on out. He will be an FA soon, and will command big money. For all of those reasons he is likely too expensive as a 30 year old DH (which is what he will mostly be) to give up premium pitching talent. I would not part with Anderson, regardless of his struggles, for Martinez. Thus, while I like him in our lineup, I am not sure you can’t get something similar for cheaper (both money +prospects) if it is just for a DH spot.
by Buzzy on May 18, 2009 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
I’m not sure Theo will part with premium talent for a player on the other side of 30 who will be a FA in a couple of years. When the Sox got Bay last year, they parted with a problem player (Manny) and two players (Hansen and Moss) who were no longer in their long-term plans. By trading Manny for Bay, the Sox got younger, more athletic, and saved money going forward. That seems to be the FO’s formula.
Unless the Sox have soured on Anderson, Buchholz, Bard, or Bowden, I can’t see them dealing them for an older player (a young player maybe).
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on May 18, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree with Buzzy. Again.
DHing one of your catchers consistently is also a bad idea because then you can’t move him over to catcher if you had an injury or wanted to pinchhit. (You could move him to catcher but then would have to let the pitcher hit, right?) I guess Lowell at DH, Youk at 3b and Vic at 1b could work. But I think we would lose some defense.
Someone also mentioned this in Buster Olney's chat...
… The chatt-er suggested Martinez for Buchholz + Anderson, which is way, way, way too much.
Personally, I wouldn’t want to give up anything non-insulting for Martinez. He only has short time left in his peak years, has injury problems, and I think the only position we have for him is DH and there’s a logjam there until 2011, when Papi comes off the books, and at which point Martinez’ contract would expire as well.
However (arising from further Buster speculation), I might give up a nice player (like a Buchholz) to get him and Matt LaPorta – which might address the tail-off from Martinez and then give us a power-hitting youngster going forward.
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on May 18, 2009 4:00 PM EDT reply actions
The Tribe aren't going to move LaPorta this year (if at all).
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on May 18, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
No because they're desperate to, no
But they need young pitching and we have that. I was thinking to myself “what would be fair value for Buchholz?” This, I could live with (until the first time Cleveland-Buchholz struck out Boston-LaPorta, at which point it would become the worst idea ever).
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on May 18, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Wild specualtion time.
What about Vic and LaPorta for Buch and another, less advanced prospect (Kalish?) They get major league-ready young pitching (which they desperately need). I’m not sure I would be for this actually. I want to see Buch come up and dominate.
As much
as the Tribe need to dump Martinez and need pitching, I don’t think they would do this. LaPorta was the 7th overall pick and I am sure they are very high on him. Since he plays outfield, where would we play him? Not sure.
Move him to DH?
Or RF, moving JD to DH?
Only problem I see: Why would they give up LaPorta for Kalish? Buch has already had issues, so he isn’t a sure enough bet for them to downgrade at other positions.
I think he can play 1B, though...
Surely, his glove is not the shiny portion of his resume. I’d think his destiny is DH, with maybe a year or two at 1B with Youk at 3B in the post-Lowell/pre-Lars era.
Agreed, though, that LaPorta is not in the mix in anything other than speculation (and not even really my speculation).
I’m still thinking just Martinez nets them nothing non-insulting…
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on May 18, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Um.
Lowell’s only signed through 2010, unless you’re thinking a Posada-style 4-yr., $48MM extension is in order. Personally, I wouldn’t recommend it…
LaPorta is 24 and (and more importantly) Lars is 21, so no pushing is really necessary…
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on May 18, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Just saying, the whole Tex thing would've ended with Lowell off the team.
And look how he’s played so far. I’d let him play until he thinks he can’t make it as an everyday player. That could be this season, next, or his FA offseason.
Hi, Bill.
Probably not even close. I don’t think the Indians are ever going to trade an impact bat as cheap as LaPorta unless they think there’s a problem with it which, by all indications, they don’t.
We don’t really need starting pitching all that badly, especially if you think this is already a lost season. If the Indians stand pat with Lee and Fausto with Laffey returning to the rotation, then they’re probably going to try to squeeze those last two spots out of the depth: Scott Lewis, Jeremy Sowers, Reyes, Hector Rondon, Jeanmar Gomez, and incentive-based FA deals (Pavano, Smoltz).
The Indians believe in their ability to cobble together rotations and get value out of their own guys because they’ve been relatively successful at it. Throwing out Pavano’s first start disaster in Texas, he’s got a 4.54 with 31:7 K:BB in 41 innings. They’ve played this song before with Kevin Millwood and Paul Byrd (twice).
What the Indians really, really need is an arm that can fix a bullpen right now and for the future. Obviously, a guy like Bucholz or Masterson could do that (more than likely) but the cost goes up because they can start.
I’d say Delcarmen but it looks like his service clock has been running for a while.
Anyways, to move Vic from an Indians’ fan perspective, I think the answer is somebody like Delcarmen plus a B+/A- prospect plus a low level high ceiling arm (hallmark of most Shapiro deals-see: Gregorio Rosario, Rob Bryson).
Now, I think we tend to overvalue Vic because he’s our catcher right now; in reality, I’m not sure how much longer he’s going to be anybody’s catcher.
Hey Drew,
Just to let you know, we are allowed to use subject lines over here as much as we want. So get at it; I’m sure you got some subject lines all bottled up inside that you just want to let out.
In terms of the LaPorta thing, I know. You guys love him and he has more value to you than us because of our economic advantage. I never thought anything involving him was realistic. At all.
I thought you guys would be all about young pitching with Cliff Lee coming up pretty soon, but I trust you know what the Indians need.
Both Delcarmen and Ramirez are in their last year before arbitration, so they might not fit for you guys. Masterson would probably be the best fit and I could see that being a pretty fair deal. But I’m pretty sure we don’t want Vic that much right now. Tek is playing well and will stay on this team. We need Kottaras on the roster as long as Wake is still playing (unless anyone thinks Vic or Tek could ever catch Wake). So trading for Vic would mean 3 catchers on the roster, which is a waste. The only way it would work is if we planned on DHing him almost full time and we could only do that if we actually cut Ortiz. So, I doubt anything like this goes through.
Well, it’s really a question of what the Indians objective is; if it’s to contend this year or the next, then it’s hard to justify letting Lee or Vic go. You simply can’t replace their contribution at their dollar levels for this season or the next. I think the Indians pretty clearly still think of themselves as contenders, so the only scenario I can see Vic moving in is in getting a guy they think might impact in 2010 (the B+ prospect) and some kind of legitimate bullpen fix.
Cliff is arguably the best value in major league pitching, so if he gets moved, that’s probably white flag until 2011.
This Indians’ bullpen thing is really becoming tiresome.
There’s always been a lot of discussion about Vic as a DH or full time 1B: there’s not really anything in the numbers but there’s that old horse about a guy must hit better when not playing the hardest defensive position, right?
I dunno. Watching Vic play, I have trouble believing he can’t be a good DH for the next 5 years or so. Vic’s a genuinely good pure hitter and in this brave new world, I think DH production is going to be dropping across the board. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if DH’s who can do about .880 become pretty valuable in the next few years.
A large part of this is just the outliers leaving the pool-Ortiz and Hafner specifically. Wonder why we’re not seeing 1.000+ lines out of guys who weren’t huge prospects, had late peaks, and are not athletic enough to play a position? Weird.
Larger point, Vic being a good DH probably isn’t worth 3 players from the Red Sox, or anyone else. And Vic being a good DH isn’t going to be worth whatever he gets paid at the end of 2010 and more than that, the Indians just can’t afford it. So, gathering the threads, Vic is going to get moved at the deadline to a team that thinks one more bat is the key-it will probably be the 2010 deadline but 2009 wouldn’t floor me. Shap will murder somebody at one of those deadlines but it probably won’t be Theo. Ned Colletti calling-you say you loved your 3 months of Casey Blake? Great!
Exceptions being: sweetheart deal, injury.
To actually talk about the Sox, this Tek thing is a real unexpected occurrence huh?
Yup. On just about everything.
You might be on target with the “.880 OPS for DH is good enough” thing. But, I’m pretty sure the Sox can get around an .800 OPS from guys already in the system. So then what is an extra 50-80 points of OPS worth? Probably not our elite prospects.
I agree
that Carter can probably put up 800 or close to it. The problem is he is so damn bad in the field that he puts a straight jacket on flexibility. Assuming the Sox don’t outright cut Ortiz, Carter becomes a headache because they would likely need to drop Kotsay. Martinez is interestin because he can slot in as a catcher to spell Tek, and play probably a better 1b than Carter can play any position. I agree it is not optimal, but it is one thing I don’t like about the otherwise clear Carter option.
No
as I said at the top of this post ;). Unless they would take a straight swap for Masterson, which Shapiro would not do.
Agreed.
Its also pretty obvious from talking to the guys at LetsGoTribe that Victor is important to that franchise in ways he would not be for the Sox. (Like Varitek with the Sox) So probably all just a bunch of talk anyway.
It’s almost certainly just a talk. Rosenthal and Olney are driving this during a down cycle-I can’t imagine the Indians are already shopping Victor.
Any time Boston or New York needs just about anything, guys like Olney just look up who’s the best player in the league currently at that position and float it.
Same thing with this LaPorta nonsense: Boston might need a DH. What top prospect could maybe do that? Write unsubstantiated article about him going to Boston.
Do you
guys know each other? Like in real life?
Yup.
College roomies sophmore year. We argued a lot though. Not about “roommate things,” but about sports. Our sports arguments became so vicious and personal that we decided it maybe was not the best set-up. The real tipping point was when Andrew started talking shit about Doug Flutie. That was an ugly one.
Also.
Andrew has some very funny posts over at LTG. This one is my favorite. Give it a read. Its hilarious.
Thanks Bill. Reasons we argued:
1-Doug Flutie
2-You and Ian cheering for the Sox on GameCast being intolerable to me. “In play (runs)!”
3-Teddy Bruschi
4-That one time that you asked me to carry that case and it broke every where and I was already in a whiny mood.
Things we agreed on:
1-You have to watch Boy Meets World every night from 2:00am-3:00am (two episodes).
Disagreements:
1. The A’s had like half their stadium sold for a playoff game and I said the Red Sox would have sold out Oakland Colliseum. You said that was stupid. I was right.
Agreement:
You said before the Colts-Pats 2004 AFC title game that if the Pats won, then Tom would and should be considered the better quarterback. We agree on that.
Hmm...
Interesting…
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on May 18, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
VMart for Masterson is a fair deal. Cleveland is desperate and looking at another rebuild. They have no pitching on the farm.
Agree but I’m just saying…they will not haul Buchholz or someone on his level for VMart.
by matzushocka45 on May 18, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
If you give anything for him it's stupid..
He isn’t great, and he has an option at the end of the season (He holds the option, I believe. It’s not mutual)
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
Still
I dont see it happening.
Unless the Indians have a midseason firesale (which is likely), he won’t move. The only people I could see going are him and Lee, but they won’t fetch the right prospect package from anyone because neither are worthy of a LaPorta type player, and that’s all the Indians seem to have eyes for. Lars Anderson for Victor Martinez would get it done but I would die if that happened.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
but they won’t fetch the right prospect package from anyone because neither are worthy of a LaPorta type player, and that’s all the Indians seem to have eyes for
Not true. Last year the Indians turned Casey Blake into Carlos Santana and John Meloan; previously, they did deadline deals for Asdrubal Cabrera and Shin Soo-Choo. The Indians have made a variety of trades over the past 3 seasons. This past offseason they flipped Franklin Gutierrez for Luis Valbuena. None of these guys were considered huge prospects at the time of the deal, perhaps Santana excepting as an emerging star. Before that, there’s further diversity with the Franklin Gutierrez deal the first time around.
Maybe true,
but the way our system is right now, I doubt anything would match up. We have some very major league ready, highly rated prospects and then a bunch of high-ceiling but far-off type guys. I would not give up the top guys (Lars, Bucholz, Bowden, Bard) and I don’t think the other guys would be enough (though maybe Casey Kelly would). As I said above, I’m not sure Vic is what this team needs. He’s old, not really a catcher and has been absurdly lucky this year (.412 BABIP and lowest K rate of career by a lot).
Well, nobody’s as good as Vic looks right now.
I’m not sure anybody matches up with the Indians. The Indians basically need everything to stop going wrong. It’s uncanny how many things have just absolutely exploded-I mean, Grady’s not hitting.
To be fair, there have been some really stellar performances on the other side-Vic, Asdrubal, Pavano, Lee but it’s just not enough to outweigh a total failure of every bullpen pitcher, and the collapse of two of the team’s 5 best hitters-JP and Grady.
If anybody gets moved, I think it will be Peralta, btw.
And all I was saying in that reply was that the Indians aren’t some backwards organizations who only get wide-eyed over guys like LaPorta. The Indians flip assets all the time in vaguely interesting ways.
Fucking Grady. Killing my and Steve’s fantasy team. Still in second though. My Jayson Werth is one of the top 30 or so guys in fantasy right now. Told you.
It is based on stats that you or I almost never look at. Like runs and rbi. When was the last time you checked how many runs a guy had scored? Stolen bases are also horribly overvalued. Werth has a bunch of those and good HR’s and good OBP. He’s a solid player in real life too. .936 OPS on the year.
I don't even know
what a good number of runs scored is. A truly ridiculous team scores 1,000, so 750 must be ok. So, a good leadoff guy must be put down for…maybe 120? Is that good?
Werth is having a career year, though, even in real life. Good call. But I was right about Adam Jones. And Asdrubal.
I think Paps wants to be the highest paid reliever in the game, and if Boston won’t cooperate he’ll move. Perhaps he’d like to stay in Boston, but he wants to be the highest paid guy more.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
We NEED Victor Martinez!
It would be terrific if we got Martinez. trade Penny or Smoltz and throw in prospects at positions the Red Sox are set at, such as 1B Lars Anderson
by RedSoxCookie322 on May 19, 2009 9:13 PM EDT reply actions
No, we don't.
We’re doing fine without him. And Lars is untouchable, unless Halladay or Pujols is on the table.
Vic Martinez would have been great 3 years ago.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
Lars untouchable
Is a drastic overstatement and the epitome of homerism. Lars is an excellent prospect, but there a a ton of current MLB players I’d be happy to trade him for.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
Yeah.
I remember a rant earlier in the year about people calling prospects “untouchable.” Almost none of them actually are “untouchable.” They are “hard to touch” maybe, but that what she said.
Lars Anderson...
…actually has an invisible and impregnable Plexiglas shield around him. He’s untouchable. It’s also screwed with his depth perception and bat-speed – making the ball untouchable in Portland so far.
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on May 20, 2009 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Some guy once showed up at LGT and tried to figure out what the A’s would have to give up to get Grady Sizemore. This was before last season, I think.
The basic answer was: players you don’t have. You literally can’t trade a pre-arb superstar for anything less than one of the other 5 pre-arb superstars.
But Lars Anderson? C’mon. We got Carlos Santana for Casey Blake and Carlos is a catcher who can outhit Anderson-age understood but, geez, he’s a catcher.
So, trade Lars Anderson for Casey Blake. That’s the moral.
We have our own Lars Anderson, too. His weird name is Nick Weglarz.
The Dodgers are stupid.
And I think Lars is generally considered to be a better prospect than Carlos Santana. Lars has hit at every level for his 2 pro years (but off to a slow start this year), while Santana looked pretty bad offensively in 2007 before busting out last year.He has outhit Lars for the last 60 or so games, but half of those were in A ball. I’m pretty sure the Dodgers did not know what they had until he was already gone.
And I’ve never heard of Nick Weglarz so I’ll assume he sucks and you’re full of it.
Santana won the MVP of his league with LA even though he was traded at the deadline. Seriously. LA is ridiculous.
I don’t think there’s going to be much difference between Lars and Carlos after this season. Catching is a big deal.
Weglarz is our poor fielding, huge power OF prospect who walks in his sleep. Like 21 years old in AA. Also, star of the Canadian national team.
Agreed that Santana is a stud.
What a steal. I can’t believe LA traded him. I mean sure, he’ “blocked” by Martin, but he may end up being better.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
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