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Game 35: Sox lose in extras

Here's what you need to know about the Red Sox' 5-4 loss to the Angels in 12 innings on Thursday:

  1. Brad Penny was servicable (6.1 IP, 7 H, 4 ER, 1 BB, 4 K)
  2. Dustin Pedroia is back with vengence (4-5, RBI, R, BB)
  3. Julio Lugo always has vengence (5-6, RBI, R, SB
  4. Ramon Ramirez is a freak of bullpen nature (2.2 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 1 K)
  5. The Red Sox lost.

Certainly wasn't the prettiest game, but atleast we're out of LAAAAA. The Sox head to Seattle for a game between Jon Lester and Chris Jakubauskas. Let's hope the Sox can get back on the winning track.

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Lester needs some good luck today.

He’s been having enough of the alternative…

by Ben Buchanan on May 15, 2009 11:02 AM EDT reply actions  

Good offense for him to face to get back on the lucky track.

Honestly, I don’t see any reason why you guys shouldn’t walk into Safeco and mop the floor with us.

Free Jeffie!
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997

by JLProck on May 15, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Kid being back?

I mean, the memories… [hates when the media ruins stuff]

by bdalebs on May 15, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hopefully you're right.

Its our last west coast series of the year. Which is awesome.

by BTLove on May 15, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup.

No more @ LA, OAK or SEA for the rest of the year. We’re in the midwest a bunch, but no west coast.

by BTLove on May 16, 2009 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Papi

Look I am all for the Sox philosophy of giving players time to work through their slumps. I think we should keep Papi as the DH however, he should not be in the 3 spot any more. Put ANYONE in the 3 spot besides Papi. Put him down in the 7 or 8 spot.

Hopefully he will start hitting again and then you could move him back up to the 3 spot. We just can’t have 17 runners LOB again.

by drabidea on May 15, 2009 11:12 AM EDT reply actions  

Not a great idea

How much do you think that is going to change things? Say we try this experiment for 1.5 months (after that, if Papi is still busted he sits/goes anyway). That is, at most, a 6 run difference spread over this time. Is that worth it to basically say to your guy who is struggling “I have no faith in you-hit where Tek used to.”? Don’t get me wrong, I am all for it if it produces something, I just don’t think the fraction of a run a game means enough to do that. If it did, I would agree. The problem is not where Papi hits, it is Papi. If he can’t work it out it is a big problem.

People always want to Monday morning QB the game. Sure, he had one of the worst games at the plate I have ever seen from anyone. Sure, Pedroia had a great game. But you know what, Pedroia has the bases loaded with 1 out and Ked (which he does not do often, career high of 52 last year) against a horrible career minor league pitcher when an out put in play would have likely won the game for us. Players contribute to losses (and in Papi’s case contribute a lot), but teams lose games.

by Buzzy on May 15, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agree totally

Win as a team, lose as a team. The Sox had many opportunities to win that game.

Here are some of the missed chances yesterday (that didn’t include Papi):

Top of 2nd:
(After Lugo’s RBI single and stolen base) Ellsbury lines out, stranding runners on second and third.
Top of 5th:
Lead-off double by Bay
M Lowell fouled out to catcher.
Drew flied out to left.
Bailey walked.
Varitek flied out to center.
Top of 9th:
With one out and two on
Bailey struck out looking.
Varitek fouled out to first.
Top of 10th:
Ellsbury’s inability to get Lugo to third base after a lead-off double was a big missed opportunity.

Buzzy already mentioned Pedroia’s failure with 1 out and the bases loaded in the top of the 12th. Sure, Papi is struggling. But this is a team loss.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on May 15, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but...

I’ll see your team failures and raise you:

Top of 4th:
D Ortiz struck out swinging – bases loaded.

Top of 6th:
D Ortiz struck out looking – Pedroia on second.

Top of the 8th:
D Ortiz flied out to left – Ellsbury on third, Pedroia on first.

Top of the 12th:
D Ortiz grounded out to catcher – bases loaded.

Even ignoring the other three situations where Ortiz failed to produce, that’s four inning-ending failures with runners in scoring position – three with the go-ahead run 90 feet away, two where a walk would have scored that run. So, if our DH could have gotten on base with at least a quarter of the time, we could have won (or at least not lost) that game. On average, we were 57% less likely to win that game after every time The Artist formerly known as Big Papi stepped to the plate. His WPA is also negative on the year (slightly).

Certainly, it’s a team loss, but if we’re privileging the team above the individual (and we must be, since we don’t play our home games in New York), then we concern ourselves with the Boston Red Sox W-L. Given that the ultimate winning strategy is to score more runs than the bad guys, I propose that the W-L would be improved by placing a player in the RBI spot who can actually, y’know, bat runs in. Ortiz may be better than Jeff Bailey or Varitek at doing that, but he’s less effective than Jason Bay, Lowell, even Drew or even Lugo at this point (small sample, of course).

Obviously, there’s a huge mental problem here. Ortiz is pressing, and there’s a popular movement amongst the (bitter and jealous) non-Boston fans to have him deemed to have taken PEDs by association – which can’t be helping. This is a justification for not removing him from the line-up (particularly with Silva, Olsen and Jackovasaurus on the slate in Seattle), since HR 1 will be more helpful than anything else at this point. However, it’s not a justification for not moving him down. He’s simply not producing at the plate in a way which justifies the at bats the 3-spot gets, and we have other players who are. Moving him down allows him to get his hacks in and allows us to win games at the same time.

Terry Francona and Ortiz (to a very small extent) are both paid to deal with situations like this. if I recall correctly Francona’s ability to manage a clubhouse of personalities is something which has been consistently praised, and Ortiz (in addition to being a run-producer) has always been described as being a good clubhouse guy. Time to earn those millions…

I hope (and I think) that Ortiz will start to produce enough to justify the 3 (or at least 5) spot at some point. Until then, we have to balance his individual concerns (meaning those particular to his ability to play baseball) with our team concerns (the tyranny of the W-L). In that light, I think a demotion in the order was appropriate before yesterday, and begins to creep towards necessity now.

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on May 15, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't disagree

with what you are saying, but one of my main points is that where he hits is largely unimportant. That is not to say you should not optimize your lineup (and if so, Ellsbury should not lead off too), but the Sox have never done this, and the effect is not large. It is wrong to look back and retrodict the game. Papi was awful, he could have lost the game hitting is the 7th spot too. You are making the typical mistake of knowing what happened in one game to justify what should be done. Future games will play out differently, but we can run statistical analysis and simulations to look at the future effect on the games and we know it is not large. I think before you make such statements about winning games at the same time, look at the simulation studies and see how many games this is.

I agree that Francona and Ortiz are payed to deal with this. The fact that he has not moved down yet in the lineup should be taken as an indication that all involved do not like the idea. That then should be taken as an indication that it would not be worth it moral-wise all around to do it. As I have said before, this is likely to have a bigger effect than the few runs here and there. If by June 30 Ortiz is still a shell, we move on and I think he would (in part) understand this.

BTW-not to harp on this, because you are correct in the fact that by far Ortiz had the largest aggregate “fail” of the game, but none of those individual fails is as large as Dusty’s. You have bases loaded and one out and you do something you only do in 8% of your plate appearences against perhaps the worst pitcher you have faced in a long time when just making contact or walking essentially does the job is bigger than doing that with 2 outs, or doing that in the 4th, etc.

by Buzzy on May 15, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah...

I don’ think what you’re saying is invalid. I just wanted to state a case for moving Ortiz down, without it being from the “OMG!!! BIG PAPI SUX!!! WE SHUD TRADE HIM + HANSEN 4 MIGGY CABRARA!!!!” school of rhetoric. The Sox shouldn’t make an alarmist move, but neither should they resist a move than an alarmist would make if it’s otherwise justified, just to be contrarian or over-sentimental (none of which is an accusation, btw). I just think we’ve moved from “DON’T PANIC” to “ARE WE BEING OVERSENTIMENTAL AT THE EXPENSE OF THE BALLCLUB?” on the good → bad decision-making continuum.

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on May 15, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

* Note however:

it’s still phrased as a question.

ARE WE BEING OVERSENTIMENTAL AT THE EXPENSE OF THE BALLCLUB?

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on May 15, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nitpick time!!

I know you wrote like 500 words and its dumb to pick on just one, but I am going to (mostly because I agree with Buzzy on this one.) Ortiz did not decrease the Sox chance of winning on average by 57%, he cumulatively decreased the Sox chance of winning by 57%. Since he had 7 PA’s, on average he decreased their chance of winning by 8% per PA.

by BTLove on May 15, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Noticed that too.

Thought most people got what he meant, but considering the glut of new users flowing in, good judgment on your part to correct that – don’t need these newbies thinking they know about stats because they read one sentence.

by bdalebs on May 15, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're right.

Which merely makes him (for purposes of Game 35 only) a very, very, very, frighteningly bad baseball player as opposed to a statistical anomaly on the scale of spontaneous human combustion. In point of fact, had he spontaneously combusted, we’d have been more likely to win the game…

See, e.g., Javier Lopez…

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on May 15, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha.

Yup, I’m pretty sure that if he averaged a WPA of -57% all statistics would cease to exist. It would truly transcend suckitude.

by BTLove on May 15, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I think Ramon threw only 16 pitches....

What would you guys say if I said he should be our new #5 starter? IF.

Well, I'll appreciate for you to keep my zingers outta your mouth!

by BoSox415 on May 15, 2009 5:34 PM EDT reply actions  

I'd say you're crazy.

But IF you said he should be our new closer, I’d think you are a very thought provoking individual…

by BTLove on May 15, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

IF you’re suggesting that, I think I might ban you.

Juuust kidding.

Or am I?

by Randy Booth on May 15, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rev Halofan?

Why you’re looking so handsome and reasonable. What’s wrong?

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on May 15, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ha.

I would say there are about 8 or 9 teams in the league right now that would pass on RamRam as their closer (and yes, the Sox are obviously included).

by BTLove on May 16, 2009 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Papelbon just a regular reliever?

You’re a… wait… I am a genious!

Well, I'll appreciate for you to keep my zingers outta your mouth!

by BoSox415 on May 15, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

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