Were teams under Duquette dirty?
by Charged on May 10, 2009 3:04 AM EDT
28 comments
I found this article over on Boston Dirtdogs, and because they don't allow commenting on their stories, I just wanted to post it over here to get some thoughts and reactions. Lets begin:
Former Sox Infielder Lou Merloni Says the Red Sox,
Under the Previous Regime (Led By Dan Duquette)
Called a Meeting To Have a Doctor Speak to Players
About the Right Way to Use Steroids
(Merloni Did Not Specify the Year the Meeting Took Place)
Sat. May 9, 2009, Lou Merloni on Comcast SportsNet's The Baseball Show: "I'm in spring training, and I got an 8:30-9:00 meeting in the morning. I walk into that office, and this happened while I was with the Boston Red Sox before this last regime, I'm sitting in the meeting. There's a doctor up there and he's talking about steroids, and everyone was like 'here we go, we're gonna sit here and get the whole thing -- they're bad for you.' No. He spins it and says 'you know what, if you take steroids and sit on the couch all winter long, you can actually get stronger than someone who works out clean, if you're going to take steroids, one cycle won't hurt you, abusing steroids it will.' He sat there for one hour and told us how to properly use steroids while I'm with the Boston Red Sox, sitting there with the rest of the organization, and after this I said 'what the heck was that?' And everybody on the team was like 'what was that?' And the response we got was 'well, we know guys are taking it, so we want to make sure they're taking it the right way'... Where did that come from? That didn't come from the Players Association."
Again, the year wasn't mentioned but Merloni was on the Sox from 1998-2003 so it could be any of those years. Why this is important is because, well, in 2001 we signed a big slugging outfielder who was only 29 and he just tested positive for steroids a couple days ago. Boston Dirtdogs asks, do you think this is where Manny began juicing?
Again, all credit goes to the guys over at Boston Dirtdogs.
Thoughts? Opinions?
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Ignore the messed up quotebox
I dunno why it messed up but oh well.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
Use the...
What You See Is What You Get Editor (WYSIWYG). It’s easier.
Just click the pink box on the right underneath the subject line.
Any team
with Trot Nixon on it is dirty. The man was the epitome of dirtdoggedness. He ate and breathed dirt, and got it all over his shirt.
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
Maybe not the time for humor, E.Coli.
A lot of people are trying to deal with effectively losing their favorite players at this point.
If Trot was on the juice he'd have played a lot more often.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
I tend to think Manny is telling the truth
Just look at his numbers — he was already putting up huge numbers in Cleveland, before he signed with the Sox. If he was juicing, he started way before 2001, and if he had, there would have been credible allegations long before now.
I think it's more that he didn't start breaking down until way later than he should have.
If anything, he was getting better.
Not really
It is possible to stay in great shape through your late 30s with modern training, and Manny will only be 37 in May. And he was not getting better, unless you count his suddenly rediscovered youth after a year-and-a-half after being traded away (i.e., when he started trying again).
Look at his last full season in Cleveland (by full I mean uninjured) — .333 BA, 45 HR, 165 RBI, .442 OBP, .663 SLG in 1999. And if you look at the three years before that, you see it wasn’t a fluke — Manny was entering his prime then — though it was his peak year. But those are Ted Williams numbers, and he never put those up again, though he came close in 2005 — he was just missing the BA. He never put up more than 45 HR with the Sox and only cleared 130 RBI once, while his BA fluctuated between high .290s and .330 or so. Now, those are Hall of Fame numbers, but that’s what you expect from a Hall of Fame player for about 8-10 years in his prime.
Frankly, if he was using, he would have shot up to 50-60 HR per year instead of producing at about the same clip as before.
I don't know.
It just scares the hell out of me that a doctor was telling the team how to properly use steroids – and the fact that one of the best players on the team tested positive for a drug that could be used to hide steroid use less than a year after leaving us. Kinda seems like he was using here and had help to keep it secret.
Yes, that's messed up
But if Manny was using in Boston, he was already using in Cleveland and simply continued to do so when he got here. The facts that his numbers didn’t spike, his body didn’t change radically, and he didn’t fail a test until now suggest that he wasn’t using.
Now, some of the other guys from the Sox unquestionably used — Jeremy Giambi, Eric Gagne, Roger Clemens, and of course Jose Canseco. But there hasn’t been a hint of legitimate suspicion that Manny used until now. He may be a prima donna, but I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt for the moment.
Maybe whoever it was that was helping keep the using secret told Manny to keep his numbers scaled down to avoid suspiscion.
I’m pretty sure I’m overthinking this though – unless the baggy uniform was to cover up a changing body?
"...his body didn’t change radically..."
anything to back that up?
here are pictures (baseball cards) before he was drafted.
http://badwax.net/2009/01/30/the-definitive-collection-baseball-edition-1992-manny-ramirez/
sure he looked different when he grew up and “lifted weights” but what i see is his look changed radically.
when u take the point that this is in the normal range of becoming mature and a proffesional power hitter (without the use of PED), ok.
I DO NOT.
i say it again:
make biometric measurments and when his feet, headsize, jaw or not so plainly seen things grew (especially after 1999) you would have the PROOF that he cheated (or has some strange disease?).
it is as simple as that.
i am not surprised at all that he DOES NOT TRY TO APPEAL his suspension.
I see the same body type in those pictures as I had when I was 17, which is about when I started lifting seriously. Without using any drugs, I’m a lot bigger now, and I still run a 4:20 mile and bench nearly twice my weight.
Guess what? That translates naturally, not radically, to a much bigger body after a decade or more. Combine that with the natural aging process, and Manny’s body hasn’t changed radically over the past 17 years. Add to that that he never failed a drug test until just now, and there’s a hell of a lot more evidence this is a one-time thing than there is that he’s a long-term cheater.
And that’s what it comes down to — evidence. You can tar him with accusations all you want, but at some point you’re just succumbing to paranoia.
As for why he didn’t appeal the suspension, it’s easy to see why — even if the test result is because of a prescription medicine with a banned component he didn’t know about, he still broke the rules, which call for strict liability. That means he’s guilty whether he intended to break the rules or not and whether he broke the rules knowingly or not. He couldn’t win an appeal, so it’s better to get the suspension over with quickly.
ok, so you think that his look is natural.
i mean natural for a professional sportsman who worked his ass off to get where he is (at least that is what i heard year in and year out for about Manny so i give him the credit for that no matter what “other” help he might have gotten or not).
as long as we do not get any true values over growth of anything of interest (headsize, feet, fingers…there is a lot to look at if we could) we just have two different views without any chance to clear it up.
what took Manny btw?
""…
prescription medicine with a banned component
…"
wow…you should be the PR manager of Manny…that sounds so cool and innocent.
yes it was something like that…or something to help you get your wrecked body functions in order after/inbetween use of roidz as far as i am informed.
BECAUSE THAT IS THE REASON IT IS ON THE LIST.
did i miss something? i think it is clear what he took and therfore it is VERY PROBABLE what for he needed it.
but hey…i might be wrong BUT there is ONLY ONE PERSON WHO COULD HELP TO CLARIFY THIS in this world which HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY TO COME FORWARD TO EXPLAIN.
is Manny coming forward to give any explanations at all?
no, not yet.
benefit of the doubt?
yeah, sure…well…maybe BEFORE HE WAS CAUGHT!
T W I C E ! ! !
!!!IN ONE YEAR!!!
but afterwards???
i know you know but it seems to me that you might have missed some important points in the Manny case so far.
every quote from this article (http://thesteroidera.blogspot.com/2009/05/manny-ramirez-suspended-50-games-for.html)
“Ramirez’s case was set off when a test in spring training revealed he had elevated levels of testosterone in his body. MLB followed up with a more comprehensive test that confirmed the testosterone had to come from an artificial source, the sources said.
While investigating, MLB obtained documents that indicated Ramirez’s use of hCG, and it was those documents that formally were used to hand down the 50-game suspension. Baseball decided to suspend Ramirez for only hCG because, in the end, he would have been suspended for just the 50 games either way. There was a chance Ramirez could have proved that the testosterone did not come from a banned substance, the MLB source said.
…
There are very few legitimate uses for HCG in men."
short article about the legitimate use here:
http://www.briancuban.com/will-manny-ramirez-assert-small-balls-defense/
so in the end he was FIRST caught with “elevated levels of testosterone” but MLB decided to make the case for hCG because they had “written” evidence for it and “…Ramirez’s representatives indicated they would fight a suspension for using artificial testosterone.”.
please read that sentence again. PR is a form of art for the MLB.
and the penalties from the MLB in itself are a total joke.
You still have the little problem of no previous positive tests. But hey, I guess one positive result in several years of testing is enough to assume he’s been dirty for 17 years.
God help any defendant who ever has you on a jury. You don’t need any evidence to convict.
do you really mean that?
i give you the benefit of the doubt that you really do not know.
NO TEST TILL 2006
NO TESTS NO RESULTS
NO RESULTS NO POSITIVE TESTS
if you wan to get a hint why in hell there was no testing in the MLB maybe this essay may be helpful for your own research:
http://www.shaunassael.com/pdf/WhoKnew.pdf
we do not have any jury over here and i do know little about your jurisdictional system in that area.
you really think that Manny will get in front of a jury because of that?
for what reason?
IT IS NOT A CRIME IT IS JUST A SHAME.
You're ignoring some key facts
No tests until 2006, sure. But that means there were tests in 2006, 2007, 2008, and now 2009.
Three-plus years of tests before one positive result. That’s a bunch of clean tests before he failed this one. But you assume he was dirty the entire time, even with three years of clean tests.
you are right i am ignoring key "facts"...
…because they are totally irrelevant to the point if he used or not.
clean tests are not proving anything when you do not take the testing system in to account (and you tried to expand his "clean
and the testing system of the MLB (and btw that of mostly all other major sports in this world with a lot of money involved):
- was not existent for a long period of time even though everybody knew what is happening
- was a joke when it was introduced
- is still an absolute joke
this is my point of view.
“Three-plus years of tests before one positive result. That’s a bunch of clean tests before he failed this one. But you assume he was dirty the entire time, even with three years of clean tests.”
this is EXACTLY what i am thinking/assuming.
and i do not really know (thx to the MLB) how many tests he had (Manny says 15) before this 2 (in words: TWO) failed tests came out this year.
and how many failed he had ?
we just do not know.
AND we will never know because MLB does not inform the paying customers (like i am one) about such things if they do not get forced to.
a thing i have to “admit”:
there were quite some tests in the past which could be of interest for our little discussion like the ones in 2003 for instance which were labeled “ANONYMOUS”.
Manny was likely
using from the time he was called up. You have to remember that players even in the late 80s/early 90s were using. For all we know, some players in the 70s were using (Dave Kingman? Reggie Jackson? These guys had football backgrounds and were big guys). Steriods were not banned until well after many of the players we are discussing were stars. Starting in the early 90s power numbers really shot up, and it was not the ball. It has been speculated that a good guess is that 80% of MLBers/60% minors/40% college and 20% HS players were taking. Likely the next big scandal is the NBA where there is no testing and the body types have changed completely since the 80s.
There is no testing in the NBA?
I know they test for recreational drugs, I guess I just assumed they tested for PED’s too.
Not that I know of
and just consider the crazy pounding those guys take. How do they keep that body mass for 80 games of that? Jordan used to work out with weights every day. That is a lot even if you are not playing in the NBA. Think about how the Bird-era players looked. No look at the bodies of the 90s (Mason) or today (Howard). Hmm…
They do test for steroids. Obviously I don’t think this would prevent all steroid usage and I agree with your observations about body types etc. But how much can be explained by better weightlifting techniques and other supplements? I don’t know.
I stand corrected.
There is speculation of other usage:
http://theondeckcircle.net/2009/03/the-needle-and-the-damage-done-the-nba-and-hgh/
but to be fair, MLB does not test for HGH as well, and this is all speculation.
Sorry but.....
Lou Merloni is a hack. I don’t believe a word of this and never will.
Baseball is God's sport! All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident. kinesiologist
From Duquette's Interview with WEEI:
Dan Duquette, the former Red Sox general manager who found himself defending the club’s approach to steroids during his tenure after former infielder Lou Merloni said Saturday that a team-approved doctor once told Boston players how to properly use them, spoke to WEEI’s “The Big Show” about the topic today.
Here are a few of the highlights of the interview. Merloni was a co-host of the show:
On whether the version of events Merloni spoke about over the weekend was accurate:
Duquette: “I’m not buying it . . . and the reason is all of medical people were clear on the policy of the club. I will say that I felt it was really important to education the players on the associated health risks associated with steroid use. Because, let’s face it, there was a player’s choice. It wasn’t a team choice. The team made it’s choice very clear: you can’t do it, it’s against the law and it’s against major league baseball policy and team policy.”
On whether he thought Merloni’s comments suggested that the Red Sox told players how to do steroids:
Duquette: “No, but I think it was inferred from his comments. And the club was never doing that.”
On whether he had doctors and trainers discuss steroid use with the team:
Duquette: "We had people come and tell the players about the risks of using steroids, yes we did. I thought a lot of the guys who started using steroids, they didn’t have medical access to them, and there was a lot of health risks for the first users of steroids that were prominent in a number of different sports.
On the Red Sox’ approach to steroid education during Duquette’s time as GM (1994-2001):
Duquette: Absent a testing program at the major-league level, I thought the most important part of any program that a team could have was educating the players, educating players to choices they were making, so that they could make an educated choice and avert the health risk. The comment made [by Merloni] on Saturday implied that the club was encouraging steroid use or steroid abuse. That wasn’t the case."
[Note: This comment came after Merloni attempted to clarify his remarks from Saturday and said there were frequent meetings about the dangers of using steroids, but no encouragement to use them. He made the analogy today of teaching a teenager about safe sex.]
On whether he thought Roger Clemens used steroids upon signing with the Blue Jays before the 1997 season:
Duquette: "I was just disappointed that we couldn’t get the same results from him here . . . I’ll have more to say about that in another forum. I’ll have more to say about that in the future.
On whether he was surprised by Manny Ramirez’s suspension:
Duquette: “I was disappointed. I wasn’t surprised.”
Well…
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on May 11, 2009 10:21 PM EDT reply actions
As much as I can't stand Duquette...
He still in the clear, and he is right. There should some direct evidence and much more information and collaboration of Merloni’s story. Basically names and either management turning a blind eye, besides other players coming out supporting Merloni’s story.
Cross-posting from LetsGoTribe … don’t kid yourself, Manny was doping.
As for exactly when he was doping, I couldn’t say. But I think people act like this is a binary thing, one day he’s doping and one day he isn’t. Doping is usually part of an overall training regime, and it could have been eased into Manny’s routine at any point in his career. There is no evidence of it, but for all we know, the entire 1995 Indians club was doping — some a little, some a lot. That would explain why Chad Curtis was always so pissed about it.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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