Theo Epstein Era: Just how good has he been?
November 25, 2002: A day most Red Sox fans will remember as the beginning of the "Theo Epstein Era" in Boston. Just how good has Theo been in his time with the organization? How much of the success had by the Red Sox over the course of the last six or seven years can be attributed to the Boston native? Well let me try an break that down.
It's no secret that the media's initial reception of Epstein being named to the Red Sox General Manager position was somewhat skeptical in a general sense, and who could blame them? Epstein, a mere 28 years of age at the time, had just become the youngest General Manager in this history of the MLB. Epstein, despite the media's reaction, received very high praise from around the baseball community at the time of time of his inception. Charles Steinberg, who hired Epstein in San Diego, said "This was not your average intern." J.P. Ricciardi saw the potential as well, attempting to name Theo as his assistant GM in Toronto. Epstein however wanted to remain available if the Red Sox ever came calling, and when Larry Lucchino was brought in to the Red Sox, they did. Lucchino himself thought very highly of the young Yale graduate.
"It will be clear to you over time that this is a gifted person with a real opportunity to have a profound impact on this franchise," Lucchino said.
Epstein was a part of the 2004 World Series Championship, but some argued that team was still a blueprint of what his predecessor put together. The same argument could not be made for that 2007 Championship team however. There's not doubt that Epstein has been instrumental in what the Red Sox organization has been able to accomplish during his tenure, let's look at some of his most memorable deals and acquisitions.
Casey Fossum/Brandon Lyon/Jorge de la Rosa/Michael Gross for Curt Schilling
Curt Schilling was an important piece of both the 2004 and 2007 World Series titles. As for the other guys? Well the only one in the headlines recently was Brandon Lyon, and that was after giving up four straight home runs to the Red Sox in a Spring Training game earlier this year.
David Ortiz, Signed as a Free Agent
You can't really blame the Minnesota Twins for releasing the big left handed slugger. He could hit the ball a mile, but struggled with strikeouts and was a defensive liability more or less. However, after signing with the Red Sox in 2003, "Big Papi" became a dangerous part of one of the best 3-4 combinations in any lineup in the league, helping to lead the Red Sox to two World Series titles.
Doug MIrabelli for Mark Loretta
Mirabelli would eventually benched, while Loretta would go on to make an All-Star appearance and be a main contributor for the Red Sox. Not to mention the fact that Mirabelli would eventually end up a Red Sox again not too much later down the road.
Nomar Garciaparra/Matt Murton for Orlando Cabrera/Doug Mientkiewicz
Who could forget the day of this move. Garciaparra had become nothing less than an icon to the city of Boston during his time with the team, winning Rookie of the Year and putting up numbers that any shortstop would be jealous of. Epstein felt like the loneliest guy in Boston the night of the deal:
''It was with mixed emotions that we let Nomar go,'' general manager Theo Epstein said after hours of highly complex maneuvering culminated with Garciaparra's sudden departure. ''He's been one of the greatest Red Sox of all time.''
However, the deal would help cement the Red Sox as one of the better defensive teams in the league, providing more depth in the infield. Garciaparra would never go on to have the same success he did in Boston, continuing to battle injuries. This deal proved to be one of the main reasons for the 2004 World Series Championship.
It's also no secret that the young GM has made some questionable moves during his time with the team. And again, this comes with growing at a position like this. Especially with a team like the Boston Red Sox, every move made is done with such scrutiny. It's nearly impossible for every move to pan out, so let's look at a few of Theo's negative moves:
Matt Clement, Signed as Free Agent
The Red Sox were looking for extra starting pitching. Epstein thought he found his guy in Clement, giving him a 4 year, $40 million dollar deal, which didn't pan out the way he had hoped. Clement went 18-8 with the Sox, but had an ERA that was above 5.00, he struggled with injuries and has not lived up to his contract. A definite miss here.
Edgar Renteria, Signed as Free Agent
The Red Sox declined the option to re-sign Orlando Cabrera, opting to shell out big bucks for Edgar Renteria instead. Epstein had been said to have followed Renteria for years before the actual signing, always wanting to sign the shortstop. Although Renteria faired well at the plate during his time with Boston, his struggles in the field and inability to come up with the big hit hurt his reputation with Boston fans.
Cla Merideth/Josh Bard for Doug Mirabelli
After getting rid of Mirabelli in a steal previous to this trade (see above), Epstein gave up Bard and a promising young pitcher Cla Merideth to bring the catcher back to Boston in what seemed to some as a panic move. The Red Sox were in desperate need of someone to catch Wakefield's knuckleball, but when you look at what Merideth's upside, it's hard to see this deal as a positive. Merideth has thrown 7 innings so far this spring, striking out 7, walking zero and only allowing 1 hit.
Theo Epstein is still young, but has already drawn comparisons to Billy Beane and J.P. Ricciardi, the General Managers of the Oakland Athletics and Toronto Blue Jays respectively. Both are seen as a a couple of the best GMs in the league. Theo no doubt is deserved of this high praise. In my opinion, Theo Epstein is right up there with these two GMs as some of the top deal makers in the league. If you need convincing, look no further than what Epstein has been able to do with the Red Sox farm system. The Red Sox have set the bar high in terms of developing young talent, something Epstein had been very adamant in doing. With the signings of Dustin Pedroia, Jon Lester, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jonathan Papelbon, Justin Masterson and so on, Epstein has developed a nucleus that will keep the Red Sox competitive for years to come. In this regard, it's hard to find another General Manager who has played such a vital role in their team's success.
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Comments
One of the best things . . .
The real, and less noticed, change is how well the Red Sox now develop young players: Especially pitchers. For most of my lifetime the farm system could develop position players (sometimes not even do that), but with exception of the blip in the early eighties all of the promising young pitchers failed to live up to their promise. There are a few great players that you just have to be smart enough to draft (Nomar), but many more need careful development. Cla mentioned above was actually destroyed by the Red Sox putting him in a bad situation in his first experience (I believe bases loaded in a close game). Trading him a year later when he still hadn’t come out of it made sense (don’t think he was going to do it in Boston). Fortunately they learned from that and the Craig Hansen mistakes, and mostly are careful bringing along young pitchers (Buch was a mess up, but it looks like they recovered from it).
Theo hasn’t been perfect, but he seems to have the farm system better than in my memory (back to 67), and it might well be the best the Red Sox have ever had. I will call him top 5 for now, but if he continues to do what he is doing, I will hand him the # 1 crown in a few years (also big points for locking up his core talent for five plus years).
by Silverlock on Mar 26, 2009 10:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sucks for Hansen
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by sox-inda-south on Mar 27, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Beane
but Ricciardi hasn’t accomplished much. His best season was 2006, when the Jays (87-75) passed the injury-plagued Sox for 2nd place. I don’t know enough about the Jays to really say whether Ricciardi has benefited them or not; most chatter I read (like on MLBTR) dismisses him.
Epstein IS awesome, however. His qualifications:
-Two world series
-Ortiz and Millar for peanuts
-the creation of a sterling farm system
- the patience to develop players rather than cashing them in or chasing free agents (see Yankees, The).
He and the rest of the FO / player development system deserve a lot of credit.
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
by 0157H7 on Mar 26, 2009 10:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Didn't the Nomar deal also bring in Roberts?
Or was that a simultaneous deal?
Manny ain't the only bad man.
by tommy.otm on Mar 26, 2009 10:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Same deal, same time
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by sox-inda-south on Mar 27, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
July 31, 2004: Traded as part of a 4-team trade by the Boston Red Sox with Matt Murton to the Chicago Cubs. The Minnesota Twins sent Doug Mientkiewicz to the Boston Red Sox. The Montreal Expos sent Orlando Cabrera to the Boston Red Sox. The Chicago Cubs sent Brendan Harris, Alex Gonzalez, and Francis Beltran to the Montreal Expos. The Chicago Cubs sent Justin Jones (minors) to the Minnesota Twins.
by Randy Booth on Mar 27, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was the Nomar deal.
This was the Roberts deal:
July 31, 2004: Traded by the Los Angeles Dodgers to the Boston Red Sox for Henri Stanley (minors).
by Randy Booth on Mar 27, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Will not overspend
Theo has done a great job. He has proved recently no matter who it is he will not put the franchise in a bad position by overspending for players. Johnny Damon, Pedro Martinez…….I love what he has done with the farm system. I also love the fact that he will not shy away from pulling the trigger on a deal if he feels it will make the team better. see manny08. I think that with Theo at the helm, the future of RedSox Nation is bright.
by That5foot9inchMVP on Mar 26, 2009 11:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm, let me think..
We won, wait a minute, that’s right f*ck all for 86 years, this guy came in, made the moves and won twice in 4 years…uh that works for me. As 5foot9 says and we don’t really overspend(maybe JD, let’s wait and see on this). We’ve been outbid for Damon, Pedro, Tex and others and we’ve look good thus far.
Other than retaining the carcass this year, I give the FO my faith with any moves they choose to undertake at this point.
by sydneysox on Mar 27, 2009 1:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Lugo was an overspend.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
by tommy.otm on Mar 27, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Swap Lugo's name for Renteria and the paragraph needs little editing.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
by SoxDevil on Mar 27, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drew and Lugo
were “panic” moves after finishing third. that same winter is when drop $51 million to talk to some guy named Dice-K
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by sox-inda-south on Mar 27, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not true in either case.
Sox had targeted Drew for years previously, hence allegations of collusion. Similar story with Lugo. Bizarre in retrospect, but Theo and crew had set their sights on Lugo, went out and got him.
"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"
by britsoxfan on Mar 27, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Word
"Hey we got a lot in common here... I'm gonna rape you"
by MerryGoByeBye on Mar 27, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theo’s strength has been in player development. The 2004 team had almost no one that was drafted by the Sox (Trot Nixon) then just a few years later we started getting all the guys Theo drafted as our core. This has been his accomplishment.
His big-money FA signings have been mostly bad with the terrible SS contracts (Lugo and Renteria), the overpay for Drew and Clement, not to mention the 4 years and $60 mil that he offered Nomar before the 2004 season (yeah, Nomar gave up that much money). Thankfully he has resisted terribly overpaying to keep old guys. Definitely a mixed bag.
Trades have been mostly good. I’m surprised you didn’t include the Beckett/Lowell for Hanley/Anibel Sanchez deal. That is the one that solidified us for 2007.
by BTLove on Mar 27, 2009 1:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Beckett deal was made while Theo was MIA. So you can’t chalk that deal up to him.
Interestingly enough, the few deals he may have overspent (Lugo, Renteria, Drew) were all players he had previous fascination with. Maybe the key is to tell him to forget about the past, and evaluate FA more on what they have done recently, and not what he has liked about them in the past
by Realistic on Mar 27, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we all know that Theo was calling the shots from behind the scenes.
by BTLove on Mar 27, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If anything, people said he was against the deal. Not exactly what I would call “calling the shots”
by Realistic on Mar 30, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you missed the point
Ya, Theo was gone, but look at this:
WE GAVE UP HANLEY RAMERIEZ (spell check?) The best shortstop in baseball!
If Beckett doesn’t ace this year, we may have been cheated. Lowelll was a nice addition though so that may have a slight offset.
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by sox-inda-south on Mar 27, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The judgment of this trade is over — it was a good deal. You can’t keep judging a deal four or five years down the line. Three seasons and the judgment should be stopped.
Beckett struggled in his first season as a Sox, granted, but he still logged 200 innings for the first time in his career. In ’07 he should have been the Cy Young award winner and was money in the postseason. Last year, many people look at his season on the surface and say he sucked, but analyze the stats (Allen had a post on this near the beginning of the offseason).
Lowell is a WS MVP (No. 5 in MVP during the regular season in ’07), has averaged around 20 HR per season (17 last year in only 113 games) and has been a core to the clubhouse.
Personally, I pull the trade’s trigger today.
by Randy Booth on Mar 27, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Three seasons and the judgment should be stopped."
Not so. I still judge the F out of Lou Gorman for Larry Anderson – 20 years later.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
by tommy.otm on Mar 27, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The post was judging how well Theo has done as GM, so the fact that he was not there when the trade went down is completely relevant to agruing for or against how he’s done as a GM. Whether you want to say it was a bad trade or a good trade…doesn’t matter, the trade is irrelevant to the post because the post is about Theo, not about the sox in general since 2002
by Realistic on Mar 27, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's said that he Theo heavily consulted even though he didn't pull the trigger.
Though, if memory serves, Theo was against the deal and Lucchino was for it.
I don’t think the Red Sox win the 2007 World Series without Beckett and Lowell. Everyone forgets Lowell as a part of the deal. He was a salary-dump throw-in, but he’s been great for us.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
by SoxDevil on Mar 27, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That trade won us a World Series.
Period. Thats it. Nothing else matters.
by BTLove on Mar 27, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We still traded one of the 5 best players in the league
I really doubt we wouldn’t win one with Hanley in the line-up.
"Hey we got a lot in common here... I'm gonna rape you"
by MerryGoByeBye on Mar 28, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Basically
Everyone has said it above. Theo is good, overspends sometimes, but his farm developing and drafts have been the difference makers. I bet you Billy Beane wishes he could do that good in some of his drafts. The A’s have had way better picks than us, and we still produce big leage talent likes it is nobody’s business.
I mean look at this: Both Pedroia and Lester were Round 2 picks! At least 50 picks were before us or something when we got these two stars!
This might say a lot about our developing system and minor league system too.
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by sox-inda-south on Mar 27, 2009 10:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think that is exactly it. Theo committed to developing players, and that doesn’t just mean making good drafts, it also mean spending the money to get good coaches, trainers, etc. in the minors to help develop players. Who knows, maybe some of the players like Lester and Pedroia are just as much products of our development system as they are products of their natural ability. Maybe they don’t succeed as much if the were drafted and developed in another team’s farm system.
It can’t be a coincidence that the Sox are regularly making stars out of 2nd round and higher draftees.
by Realistic on Mar 27, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RE: Matt Clement
I’m not sure if you can blame him for Matt Clement. It’s one thing if you go after a guy that has a history of being injured or not taking his rehab seriously, but Clement was 10-2 before the All-Star break in his first year with the Red Sox. He then got hit in the head by a line drive, and you could say he’s never really been the same since.
by Hardscores on Mar 27, 2009 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The mark of a good GM
I think the mark of a good GM is this. His good moves win championships and his bad moves don’t hurt the club that much. Good moves are Schilling, Foulke, Cabrera, Roberts, Ortiz, Beckett, Lowell, Drew, Matsuzaka. Sure, I would love to have Hanley Ramirez at SS right now, but how can you argue with Beckett as ALCS MVP and Lowell as WS MVP? The bad moves are documented above (Renteria, Clement, etc) but if you look at today’s lineup which includes several home grown prospects (Lester, Ellsbury, Papelbon, Youk, Pedroia), this is just a really good team. And the farm system is strong, especially in the pitching ranks. For me, this guy has been a dream GM.
by jsmails on Mar 27, 2009 11:53 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
A particularly good summation.
No GM is going to win every deal and be right about every personnel move. Epstein’s wins have made far more of an impact than his losses. Contrast that with the Mets trading Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano. That’s a deal that still haunts the franchise.
I don’t know if Theo Epstein is the best GM in baseball—he has more resources to work with than most, often allowing him to make the mistakes that he does (Renteria, Lugo)—but he’s certainly top 5.
I’m extraordinarily happy with the Red Sox front office. It’s one of the reasons I enjoy following the team so much. It’s tough to root for a team that consistently shoots itself in the foot, such as the Mariners, formerly under Bill Bavasi, worst GM in baseball.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
by SoxDevil on Mar 27, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mueller/Millar
Were two more key Theo pickups. Papi, Mueller and Millar were all cheap signings. In 2003 Mueller had an OPS+ of 140 and won the batting title; Millar posted an OPS+ of 117 in 04, and we all know about Papi. I recall a Yankee friend of mine saying in 2003, “how do the Sox find those guys?” Answer-Theo. These signings + his drafting from a low position alone make him a very good GM, despite the mistakes.
by Buzzy on Mar 27, 2009 12:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Epstein's trade flubs
Only two come to mind:
1. The panic deal to re-acquire Mirabelli (Epstein later acknowledged it was a panic move and the worst deal of his GM-ship).
2. The trade for Gagne. David Murphy is a serviceable outfielder though I don’t think he’d ever get a fair shot on the Sox’ squad. The jury is still out on Engel Beltre; he’s only 20, but has no plate discipline (105 K : 15 BB) and hits for little power (.711 OPS). Gabbard was an excellent sell-high move. The Sox really didn’t lose much on this.
Another debatable move was trading Kelly Shoppach and Andy Marté (como se dice “bust” en espanol?) for Coco Crisp, but we’ve been down that road of discussion many times. Crisp left his bat in Cleveland but did provide some spectacular defense for the Red Sox over several years. I know we’d all rather have Shoppach than either ‘Tek or Kottaras, but I don’t really see this move as a loss.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
by SoxDevil on Mar 27, 2009 1:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Epstein gets a C- for Free Agency in my book.
Lots of mistakes, and overpaying, with few successes.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
by SoxDevil on Mar 27, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a joke,
right? He signed Ortiz, Mueller and Millar for peanuts. Picked up serviceable pitchers like J-Lo, Donnelly (decent and helpful until hurt), Timlin, and David Wells for cheap. He has had failed signings, but the most he spent on a signing was Drew at 14Mil a year. Constrast that with any other team with a payroll over 100Mil, like the Angels who spent 18million on an aging, overrated CF like Hunter, or the Mets or Yankees, and I find it hard to believe you would give a C-. He does not strap the team down with long term bad contracts. The “worst” is Drew, at 5/70 and even Drew could be arguably the most successful postseason position player for the Sox in 07/08.
by Buzzy on Mar 27, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Compared to Lugo's 4/36
and Renteria’s comparably bad contract, Drew’s 5/70 seems like a downright bargain.
by lone1c on Mar 27, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
those are bad contracts, but in the absolute sense they are not a lot of money. Another unmentioned aspect of free agency is what we get back when we don’t sign our own big name players (Lowe, Pedro…) this has netted us at least Ellsbury, Buccholz, but also cost us Rasmus for the dumb Renteria trade.
You really could argue Theo has actually been better in free agency than trade. The Wily Mo trade was another dumb one, but there have been good ones too.
by Buzzy on Mar 27, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Mar 27, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So who is
catching in Cleveland?
Victor Martinez or Shoppach?
There is no way a small market like Cleveland can keep talents like that forever???
But Even if, They are both aging rapidly and we need something for the future
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by sox-inda-south on Mar 27, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moves no one has mentioned
Here are some of the other deals Theo has made from 2003 to 2007:
2003:
The good moves:
(1)Trading players to be named later (Josh Thigpen and Tony Balnco) for Todd Walker.
(2)Trading malcontent Shea Hillenbrand for Byung-Hyun Kim. (Hillenbrand was taking playing time for Mueller and Ortiz, and Kim, despite what Sox fans think, was very good for the Sox in the regular season—until Grady blew his arm out. Without Kim, I’m not sure the Sox make the playoffs).
(3) Acquiring Gabe Kapler for cash considerations.
(4) Trading Phil Dumatrait and Tyler Pelland for Scott Williamson (Williamson was huge in the ‘03 post-season).
The bad move:
Acquiring Jeff Suppan and Brandon Lyon for Mike Gonzalez and Freddy Sanchez. (In fairness to Theo, this was considered a good move at the time, and Lyon was later part of the Schilling trade).
2004:
The good moves:
(1) Acquired Lenny DiNardo, Rule 5
(2) Acquired Mark Bellhorn for future considerations.
(3) Signed Pokey Reese as a FA
(4) Signed Keith Foulke as a FA (They don’t win the 2004 WS without Foulke).
(5) Signed Curtis Leskanic as FA
(6) Selected Mike Myers off waivers after the Trade Deadline.
No bad moves.
2005:
The good moves:
(1) Letting Pedro go (The Sox drafted Clay Buchholz with one of the compensation picks)
(2) Letting Orlando Cabrera go (The Sox drafted Jacoby Ellsbury and Jed Lowrie with the compensation picks).
(3) Letting Derek Lowe go (The Sox drafted Michael Bowden with the compensation pick).
(4) Signed John Olerud as a FA
The bad moves have been already mentioned
2006:
(1) Traded David Riske for Javier Lopez.(Lopez the pitcher)
(2) Acquired Eric Hinske for cash considerations.
The bad moves:
The Mirabelli trade (as noted by many, and trading Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena.
2007:
The Good moves:
(1) Signed Hideki Okajima as a FA
(2) Traded Phil Seibel for Brendan Donnelly (Donnelly was effective until he got hurt).
(3) Signed Bobby Kielty as a FA (After the Trade Deadline).
The bad moves:
These have already been mentioned, most notably, the Lugo signing. I wouldn’t put Drew or Dice-K in this catagory, as Drew has been very good in the post-season and Matsuzaka costs less than $10 million a year toward the luxury tax.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Mar 27, 2009 1:56 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Exactly, Theo in general hasn’t made many large FA signings, so the fact the 2 of them have flopped (Lugo and Renteria, Clement doesn’t count because as noted above, he was actually pretty good until he got hit by a line drive and was never the same, no way in hell Theo or any GM could have predicted that.) and there are only a handful of News Breaking FA signings to begin with, his FA track record is misleading at a first glance, until you consider that not only have none of the flops completely crippled us, but that there are a lot of smallers signings like you list that get over looked (even though looking back some like Ortiz are in no way small even if at the time there wasn’t a lot of hoopla), and you take into consideration non-signees, and SoxDevils C- grade seems pretty harsh
by Realistic on Mar 27, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
If you look closely at what Theo has done, he has been pretty damn good. I’d grade him an A/A-. He has been one of the best GMs in the game.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Mar 27, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps it is a little harsh
I figured a “C” was average (boo grade inflation), and Epstein has done fairly poorly with his bigger free agent acquisitions. I was not including reclamation projects such as Ortiz, Millar, and so forth, which is admittedly unfair. I did balance in factors like the Foulke signing.
In general, I think Epstein does very well and is one of the top 3 GMs in the game; arguably the best. Epstein’s biggest fault is to fall in love with a position player and pursue him for years, only to finally overpay the guy for comparably poor performance.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
by SoxDevil on Mar 31, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But look at it this way...
At least I stimulated discussion! ;-)
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
by SoxDevil on Mar 31, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Extremely boo grade inflation.
I want my A’s to mean something.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Mar 31, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree with you on that one, and I think I said something to that matter somewhere in this post, that the bad signings have all been players he’s had previous fascination with, almost like he is biased against what they have done lately, and just excited to get the player he once saw promise in, even if the most recent evidence suggests otherwise
by Realistic on Apr 1, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clement's injury was scary as hell.
I was at the game. A Sox fan behind me started praying like crazy, and later said that he hadn’t prayed in several years.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Mar 28, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And some additional notes to some of the moves
- We only paid Bellhorn $490,000 in 2004 and he gave us an OBP of .373 that year. Not bad at all for a fill in at 2B considering both cost and production
- Letting pedro go not only gave us Clay, but Pedro fell apart after only 1 more good year, and considering a lot of people disagreed with Theo on this one at the time, this was a great non-signee
- The non-signing of a FA 2B in 2007 and handing the position to an unproven Dusty, which a lot of people disagreed with, especially after he struggled in April
- Letting Millar walk and the non-signing of a FA 1B which paved the way for Youk, who some people thought was slightly above average at best at the time
- Claimed Kyle Snyder off waivers. Not a huge deal and he wasn’t amazing and didn’t do much in 2008 or 2006, but considering how little he paid, he was solid as our long relief option in 2007
- Manny for Bay. People can agrue about it all they want, and argue about how this trade was bad not good, but the fact is that Manny was bringing the team down and despite past trade demands, this was the first time that he was actually damaging the team and Theo had no choice but to trade him. The situation was set up for Theo to get burned, the fact the we were able to get a quality player like Bay for 1.5 years for a half of year of a sulking Manny is a win in my book. (Especially those who say that he was just demanding a trade like he does every year and that if we just stayed pat he’d be back to slugging after the trade deadline. The fact that even his friends like Ortiz were saying “It’s time for him to go” is pretty telling that no, this wasn’t just like the other times)
by Realistic on Mar 27, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glad you put that up!
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by sox-inda-south on Mar 27, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drew has also been better than any reasonable alternatives
that Theo might have considered. He plays adequate defense, to Abreu’s woeful D.
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
by 0157H7 on Mar 27, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mentioned Lopez the pitcher, but I don't see Javy Lopez mentioned anywhere.
It wasn’t bad, because without him we would have bombed. But, with him, we didn’t make the playoffs.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Mar 28, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also Worth Mentioning
I usually comment over at Burnt Orange Nation (Texas Longhorns Blog), but I’m also a die-hard Red Sox fan, which I’m about to show here: Not to open up old wounds, but in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS, Theo ordered that Pedro be pulled after he pitched the seventh inning, or threw 100 pitches, whichever game first (as long as he was pitching well and keeping the game close). And of course, Grady “fuck face” Little (dick) left him in, and yeah, we’re stopping this story now. Still, Theo is good people.
by Ricky'sDreadlocks on Mar 27, 2009 4:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
To generalize:
Theo’s strengths:
1. The low risk moves. He has brought in tons of guys on short, low money deals and many of them have worked out (most of the 2004 team). The ones who do not cause little harm to the team. He has repeated this strategy again this season with Smoltz and Penny.
2. Player development. No explanation needed.
3. Not giving an F about sentiment. He let Pedro, Damon, Nomar, Manny and Millar all bolt. Tried to get rid of Tek, but the cat came back.
Weaknesses:
1. Big money SS deals. Obvi.
2. Mid season pitching pickups. Suckpan, Sauersuck, Gagne.
by BTLove on Mar 27, 2009 8:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I still can't get over the fact that Gagne = won (French).
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Mar 28, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, at least it's in the past tense.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
by SoxDevil on Mar 31, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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