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Around SBN: The Animated GIFs Of January

Mike Lowell Trade To Texas Rangers Off

Too bad, but Mike Lowell will be staying a Red Sox:

Don't toss out that Mike Lowell jersey.

According to a major league source, the third baseman needs surgery on the radial collateral ligament in his right thumb and the trade to Texas that was agreed upon 11 days ago is off.

Lowell will have surgery after Christmas and is expected to need 6-8 weeks of recovery time. The hope is he will be ready for spring training.

Mike Lowell, despite his horrible defense at third base, will be staying a Red Sox. Theo Epstein will now need to think of a Plan B.

What will that be?

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DFA

Miguel Cabrera IS the solution to our problems.
Release Jason Varitek before ST is over !
Do not pay Jason Bay !!
Trade Buchholz !!!

by gizmosandy on Dec 19, 2009 10:21 PM EST reply actions  

A platoon with Kotchman at First Base with some DHing

Try to get value.

To zobrist; verb – to overlook the superiority of a person or object based on misleading sensory or conversational factors. e.g. "My teacher totally zobristed me on that paper – I’d included all the points he asked for but I didn’t drone on about Grover Cleveland enough. He’s totally biased towards Cleveland. What’s worse is that Danny Dukowski got an A, and his prose style is terrible. He’s a total Victorino." deadspy3 - Amazin' Avenue

by bloodysock04 on Dec 19, 2009 10:24 PM EST reply actions  

This

I predict that he starts about 40% of the games at third, with Youk taking 40% and Lowrie at 20%. He’ll probably DH against good lefties and sit a fair amount as well.

by Schulz on Dec 19, 2009 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

well, just

an expensive reserve. not the most ideal, but max ramirez sounds TERRIBLE. And still room to get Adrian, though it’d be a tight squeeze. One guy would sit each night, 2 if Tek is catching.

it’s also possible that the sox showcase lowell during ST or during the season and trade him (maybe they get better value that way), and make a move for Gonzo at the trading deadline for less prospects. As we know, Theo is shy at the deadline.

And right now, unless the MFY get another bat-Holliday, Bay, we can compete with NYY no probs.

"We're not going to give up," It doesn't happen, so who cares? There's always next year. It's not like it's the end of the world."-Manny Ramirez

by revigik on Dec 19, 2009 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

How does Max Ramirez sound terrible?

He’s had one bad injury year. Otherwise, he’s been an elite hitter throughout the minors, and it looks like he’ll actually be able to stay at catcher, if not well.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 19, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

he can't DH against lefties

because that’s the only time it makes sense to put Varitek in and have Martinez DH. Lowell is a wasted spot if he’s not a full time 3B

by wolf9309 on Dec 20, 2009 2:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Against lefties

Varitek-C
VMart-1B
Youk-3B
Lowell-DH

by Gnick on Dec 20, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

i mean yes

he physically CAN dh. It’s just absurd to use up 2 of our 25-man roster spots on a platoon of players who can’t play the field.

by wolf9309 on Dec 20, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Lowrie won’t be playing any games at third.

by JFoss on Dec 21, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

this is about Lowell

not Lowrie. Though I agree he’s not a third baseman. He may end up playing a couple there as a utility guy.

by wolf9309 on Dec 21, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Lowell will be clutch

All you haters will be eating crow as Mikey puts up .295 , 24 HR , 90 RBI and plays good Defense. Was a gold glover and he will be better range wise now that he is a year + from surgery, And he was our most clutch hitter last year and will be this year. This was the best thing that could have happened for us. 2011 we get Mauer, move youk to 3rd and Vmart is our 1st baseman. All you non-athletes need to get your head out of the UZR/WAR?What-ever books and look at a winner and stand by him.

the difference between a yankee stadium hot dog and a Fenway frank is that they dont sell yankee dogs in October anymore.

by fishfarmr on Dec 19, 2009 10:41 PM EST reply actions  

no

this is why we dont need him…

1. Hes done
2. Hes Expensive
3. Hes getting in the way
4. His defense is horrible

by redsoxfan817 on Dec 19, 2009 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

1. He’s a veteran
2. He has power
3. He’s an MVP
4. True Sox fans love him, obviously you’re not one. Why? Let me guess, you want the Sox to pick up Adrian Gonzalez right? The Padres want either Casey Kelly, Westmoreland, Buchholz, or Ellsbury. Both of those minor leaguers are off limits, Ellsbury is our fastest player and we didn’t get a new outfielder for nothing. Without him, we’d have less points on the board and our baserunning would be almost the worst in the ML’s. If we lose Buchholz, whom gave up 1 or no runs his last 10 games excluding his playoff debut which he gave up 2 runs, we’d have Wakefield who went through back surgery and may not be healthy enough. Getting rid of a cheap future ace is a bad decision. There’s always free agency to get a big hitter.

If you want Adrian Beltre, you should do your research if you think Lowell is getting out of the way. Beltre went through ankle surgery 2 years ago and hasn’t recovered yet if you noticed by his recent season with Seattle. Getting him would be worse than Lowell. Lowell has better numbers offensively recently after surgery and what do you want? Offensive, and to have better offensive, you should keep Lowell because he has recovered more from surgery than Beltre.

We already improved our defence by bringing in Cameron and Scutaro, no one complained when Ortiz played first base so why complain now about his defence. It isn’t just him who has poor defence.

by n0va on Dec 19, 2009 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

1. So is Jason Varitek. Should he be playing 3rd?

2. Yes, he’s got some good pop, but pop is overvalued and overpaid.
3. Of the world series 2 years back. Should we be looking to bring David Eckstein on?
4. I love Mike. He’s a consummate team player who’s been put through a ton of **** the last couple seasons and doesn’t deserve it based on effort alone. But he’s not a good enough player to start for this team anymore, if you ask me, and the team is greater than any of its individual parts. Am I happy to see guys go? No. But I’m also not gonna stop supporting the Sox because they make good baseball decisions. In fact, I’m going to support them more. Because as much as it’s about the guys who take you there, it’s even more about the team from Fenway adding to these:

Adrian Gonzalez would be a fantastic acquisition. He might cost too much, and if he does than we should pass. But if he doesn’t we should jump on it. As for Beltre, his surgery hasn’t hurt his defense, and even if he had a bad offensive year, he’s hurt significantly by Safeco Field, and he’s 4-5 years younger than Lowell, and thus much more likely to recover from an injury.

Nobody complained about Ortiz playing first because A) it was a 1.000+ OPS vs. Youkilis with a high 700’s OPS. Beltre vs. Lowell is more like 780 vs. 880 at worst. Plus, that was back when defense was undervalued. It’s by exploiting the underexploited markets that the Sox’ front office does its best work.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 19, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

1). Who gives a damn? I’d rather have a rookie who can hit or field, rather than someone who does neither.

2). No, he doesn’t. Thumb and wrist injuries sap power, and he had very little to begin with.

3). MVP? Seriously? He had 4 WS games where he was outplayed by Jacoby Ellsbury.

4). “True” Sox fans? Cut the BS. This garbage turns us into Yankees fans.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 19, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Ellsbury didn't outplay Lowell in the '07 WS

They both played well. Check the numbers.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 20, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

You can't look at past performance with major injuries are involved...

Much like A-Rod isn’t a 5 tool player anymore with the same type of hip injury as Lowell, his fielding range is diminished…

No one denies that Mikey Lowell was a good player or deserves accolades. The problem is that this isn’t the Mikey Lowell of 2007. His hip has effected his defense and this ligament injury could effect his batting. I feel bad that this trade didn’t go through, because it means his playing days are numbered…

by superferret on Dec 20, 2009 2:44 AM EST up reply actions  

he may also not be able to swing a bat properly...

If he doesn’t have successful surgery, he may develop ulnar deviation, which is like having arthritis in his right wrist. This is more of a wrist injury than a thumb injury.. For a baseball player it is pretty serious, he may have problems even throwing the ball.

by superferret on Dec 20, 2009 2:40 AM EST up reply actions  

The Sox try to move him means that tey thought he can't pay 3B anymore

And trust me they have better access to his medical record than what you do!

To zobrist; verb – to overlook the superiority of a person or object based on misleading sensory or conversational factors. e.g. "My teacher totally zobristed me on that paper – I’d included all the points he asked for but I didn’t drone on about Grover Cleveland enough. He’s totally biased towards Cleveland. What’s worse is that Danny Dukowski got an A, and his prose style is terrible. He’s a total Victorino." deadspy3 - Amazin' Avenue

by bloodysock04 on Dec 19, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions  

And you need to get your head out of your ass.

Mauer isn’t coming in 2011. Martinez loses most of his value at first base. Lowell was an awful defender last year, and not a good enough hitter to make up for it. He makes a ton of outs, and that’s a bad thing.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 19, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll be pissed when Beltre signs a 2 years $ 14 millions contract with the Giants.

To zobrist; verb – to overlook the superiority of a person or object based on misleading sensory or conversational factors. e.g. "My teacher totally zobristed me on that paper – I’d included all the points he asked for but I didn’t drone on about Grover Cleveland enough. He’s totally biased towards Cleveland. What’s worse is that Danny Dukowski got an A, and his prose style is terrible. He’s a total Victorino." deadspy3 - Amazin' Avenue

by bloodysock04 on Dec 19, 2009 10:44 PM EST reply actions  

I hope his range comes back.

His bat is no joke, if he can rebound some defensively I won’t mind having him around.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 19, 2009 10:46 PM EST reply actions  

+1

But that’s a big if.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 19, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes it is.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 19, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

We don't need elite

An .810 OPS is nothing to sneeze at.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 19, 2009 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes it is.

When it’s playing a bad 3rd base in Fenway.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 19, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

-14.4 UZR/150

far outweighs the bat, not counting the major thumb injury. .346 wOBA is almost dead middle for 3bs with 350 PAs.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 19, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you miss the part

where I said if his defense rebounds, it’ll be okay?

If he’s playing average D and taking away at bats from Kotchman, I will be pleased.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 20, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Platoon Lowell and Ortiz straight up

Miguel Cabrera IS the solution to our problems.
Release Jason Varitek before ST is over !
Do not pay Jason Bay !!
Trade Buchholz !!!

by gizmosandy on Dec 19, 2009 10:48 PM EST reply actions  

Using two roster spots on a DH platoon is a horrible idea

At least Lowell can play 1B and 3B, so maybe making him rotate, but you have to get some use out of that roster spot.

Personally, wouldn’t surprise me to see them wait until Spring Training to try and trade him again. If he looks healthy enough, someone might take him then.

DFA Beckett

by South Coast Ghost on Dec 19, 2009 11:00 PM EST reply actions  

it is a horrible idea, so you try to trade one away

but we are stuck with Lowell so it forces the issue.

Miguel Cabrera IS the solution to our problems.
Release Jason Varitek before ST is over !
Do not pay Jason Bay !!
Trade Buchholz !!!

by gizmosandy on Dec 20, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

this might not be the end of the world.

he still definitely has value. his defense should be better than last year. his offense if he had been healthy would have been 25 hr/100 RBIs about. he won’t be quite as slow as last year either. his hip was really hindering him.

that said, i’m still upset about this. we’re gonna be paying twelve million to a guy who by june probably won’t be starting. we’ll have a better option in lowrie if he’s healthy. i’m sure a full year of lowrie would be like a 4 WAR.

i don’t want to platoon DH because I think Papi will put a pretty big year. i don’t want to hinder that by taking away his at bats.

also, you guys are right, he could still be traded around ST.

by revived0103 on Dec 19, 2009 11:04 PM EST reply actions  

I hate using WAR but...

A full season of Lowire at 3B will almost assuredly not be worth 4 WAR.

by Gnick on Dec 20, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't see why not

if he hits and fields like he did in 08 when he came up. or close to it.

by revived0103 on Dec 20, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, this is a dogshit taco...

Goodbye improved defense, hello disgruntled statue at third base…

I also find it amazing (and I’m not incredulous, but I find it amazing) that someone has a torn thumb ligament for 68 days and doesn’t know about it.

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 19, 2009 11:23 PM EST reply actions  

maybe the sox knew

and were being evil by not telling. hoping that the texas doctors are cowboys and won’t notice.

by revived0103 on Dec 19, 2009 11:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Well this sucks

Looks like we’re going to have to wait until the deadline to see any more improvements to our line. At least thats what i think is going to happen.

by beantownboy171 on Dec 19, 2009 11:37 PM EST reply actions  

un-f'n-believable

We just cannot get rid of his dead weight. We shouldn’t have signed him in the first place, and after sinking two straight seasons he’ll have a go at #3. I just want him off the team so I never have to see his lame attempts to play the field or atrocious offense.

Mike: retire. Go away, nobody wants you.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 19, 2009 11:43 PM EST reply actions  

Your hatred of Lowell is unbelievable

Lowell has always been a consummate professional and great clubhouse guy. While he looks like he’s done defensively, he was very good for the Sox in the three seasons prior to last year. Lowell averaged roughly 4.0 WAR before the hip injury.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 20, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

You can never have too much pitching.

by Pesky Fan on Dec 22, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Could be worse

Look, Lowell should be better this coming year defensively. And since the Sox knew about a thumb injury at the end of the year, and it seems that Texas got his medical records from them, they definitely knew about it. It was something they probably just hoped wouldn’t get looked into too much.

Yes Beltre or Gonzalez > Lowell, but Lowell will not be horrible.

by brogshan on Dec 19, 2009 11:52 PM EST reply actions  

Every sign points to him being horrible

Bad defense, horribly declining bat, frequent injuries, no on base skills. Nothing to be excited about.

Never should’ve been signed.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 19, 2009 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

How is his bat horribly declining? Hasn’t he been pretty steady since he’s come to the Sox? I’m not saying he’ll be great and perhaps shared time with Lowrie is the best way to go, but he’s not going to tank the season.

by brogshan on Dec 19, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

He tanked the last 2

Why should we change now?

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 19, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

the guy who completely crapped out by October two years in a row and cost us a serious chance at a ring in ‘08. He’s worthless.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 19, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Worthless

how can you say he is worthless…ever since he has been to the sox he has hit around .300 and had great power numbers. Hell he had 17 hrs and 75 RBI last year and only played close to 120 games. If he would have played full time he would have had 20 plus bombs and 100 RBIs. The dude has been hurt but he plays through everything and busts his ass everyday for the Sox. Cool your jets and realize the sox won a world series because of him, and the MLB needs more players with his mentality

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Awful defense, makes tons of outs.

He’s not been a big help since the end of ’07.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

No defense

constantly injured, no OBP skills, mediocre power, mediocre bat.

Average hitter + worst 3b defender in baseball + ridiculously huge contract = worthless.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

first off he does not have a mediocre bat you have to admit that his hitting is atleast above average. And his terrible defense isnt that bad he doesnt make that many errors you guys just look too much into this new stat crap that i really dont give 2 shits about

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

wOBA, BA, OBP, OPS+

all show he’s average or worse among 3bs.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

The Internet!

c’mon dude.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks!

I was asking if you had a site preference where you look up those stats.

by brogshan on Dec 20, 2009 12:30 AM EST up reply actions  

And stop with this

“the Sox won a world series because of him.” That’s the only excuse given to Beckett and Lowell being crap since we got them with the exception of ’07. We lost that trade, badly, but ’07 was a team effort.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Beckett has a legitimate argument.

Without him, we lose in the ALCS. Lowell, not so much.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

i wouldnt say we lost the trade…we won a world series and got one of the most dominant pitchers in the game

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Hanley > Lugo >> Beckett vs. Arroyo

We received 32.5 WAR from Beckett and Lowell’s ’06 and ’07, and Hanley was worth 24.5 all alone, for no money.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

where does lugo fit into this he wasnt in that trade….but otherwise i see no problem witht he trade…the front office saw the ability to win now and get Beckett and thats what they did. And guess what….the sox won

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

facepalm

We never would’ve signed Lugo’s 36m because we would’ve had Hanley. And instead of a player who was below replacement level, we would’ve had someone who hit .332/.386/.562/.948 in a pitcher’s park.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

More of a sure thing than

Beckett with his blister problems and Lowell’s crap season.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Not more of a sure thing than Beckett, no.

Blister problems are one thing. Never having performed in the MLB is another. Top prospects flair out all the time. 25-year-old pitchers with 100 good starts under their belts are another thing entirely.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Andy Marte!

"Hating the New York Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers and cheating on your income tax." -- Mike Royko

by sox-inda-south on Dec 20, 2009 8:42 AM EST up reply actions  

We had pitchers coming down the line

We had nobody at all for shortstop, and nobody was coming up in FA.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Hanley hit .271 AVG/.335 OBP/.385 SLG (.720 OPS) for Portland, his final year in the Sox’ organization. There were stories about Hanley’s lack of work ethic. The Sox needed pitching desperately, and young pitchers with Beckett’s upside are very hard to find.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 20, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

look what im saying is the fo did not think Hanley was ready at the time….and with the pressure in Boston maybe he wasnt…they realized they had the team to win now only missing a few pieces

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions  

4.06 career ERA

is not even close to dominant.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

i meant to say post season pitchers…but il still take him in the reg season

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Last 3 postseason series for Beckett

7.2, 9.64, 5.40 ERA

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

ok thats 3…give me the stats from all the rest

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

You can't say that he's dominant

When half of his series with us have been atrocious.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

sounds to me that your more of a sox hater than anything….who on the team do you like?

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

The people we don't need to have discussions about

Because they get the job done without dying come October.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

This argument is pathetic.

Sean O hasn’t done anything to show that he hates the Sox. Stop claiming stuff like that of a perfectly legitimate poster.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree

I know Sean from other sites, and while he really doesn’t like the players he doesn’t like, he does love the Sox.

by brogshan on Dec 20, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Please tell me

The next time I have to come in here to defend Pedroia, Lester, Youkilis or Okajima. If that ever happens, I’ll be happy to oblige.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

ok ok sorry to call you a sox hater im sure you are just a big as fan as everyone else….i just dont like when people hate on the players who work their ass off for the team

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Keep in mind

That Lowell is working his ass off for $12 million. It’s hard not to get emotionally connected to the players one way or another. But that doesn’t mean it’s wrong to call them out when they’re doing poorly. I somehow doubt that Sean has personal hatred of Lowell.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I get really annoyed

When I have to see players that I know won’t be any good take money from the Red Sox for no result. Lowell never could provide equal value for his contract. I would be SHOCKED if Scutaro earns 1/2 of the value of his contract. Meanwhile I have to see them 20-25 times a year at Fenway, sucking up sucky at bats.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Half?

By Fangraphs’ estimation, even Mike Lowell was worth about Scutaro’s contract lastyear.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Does anyone trust

fangraphs valuation?

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Not precisely.

But it’s worth considering. What does Scutaro really have to do to be worth his contract?

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

For $6m

That very may well cost us Adrian Beltre vis-a-vis the CBT, he better be damn good. Average glove and average bat isn’t worth $6m over replacement to me.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm sick of overpaying

for mediocrity. Especially for a 34 year old utility guy who doesn’t do anything well. He may do everything (hopefully) acceptably, but he’s not going to help you win anything.

I’m sick of bridges to solutions that never come.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

well the way they saw it was Jed isnt the answer right now…they gotta do something

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:30 AM EST up reply actions  

yea i agree…the sox had to get a new SS…Beltre was on the backburner for this one…and Scutaro was one of the best available

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Ben

You gotta look at the OPS+ of 1920s Red Sox shortstops. It will make your eyes boil.

It culminates in the jaw-dropping 38 OPS+ in 1930.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:30 AM EST up reply actions  

The Nomah of 2000 yeah I miss him..

The 2004 Clubhouse cancer Nomah, not so much…

The Sox were lucky, very lucky for not signing Nomah for 4/$52 million or something like that after the 2003 season.

by superferret on Dec 20, 2009 2:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I miss Rico Petrocelli

The past is the past.

You can never have too much pitching.

by Pesky Fan on Dec 22, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

as long as he keeps being a stud in the field that is fine with me

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I trust the valuation

for what it’s trying to say. It’s not what the player is worth, per say, but rather what it would cost to replace his production via free agency.

by brogshan on Dec 20, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions  

i know i get that…but throwing out words like worthless just get me annoyed

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions  

yea i see that and i am too….but i think i can find some worth at least for players….even Tek can help young catchers or something

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Tek blocks PAs

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions  

ok sorry ben…he has just put the negative stats up of everyone we talk about im just seeing if he thinks the sox have any good players

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

He makes a point.

We don’t have to talk about the Sox players that are doing bad. It makes horrible conversation to talk about how Youkilis is a great offensive and defensive first baseman. Let’s look at such a conversation.

“Youkilis is a great offensive and defensive first baseman”
“I agree”

Oh, that’s the end!

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

I disagree

I say that Youkilis is a great defensive and offensive first baseman! :)

by brogshan on Dec 20, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions  

One series has been atrocious

2008, when he was pitching hurt. He had one “eh” start this year.

His 2007 post-season, on the other hand, was outrageous.

I’m sensing a great deal of “what have you done for me lately” coming from you. Should I ask how you feel about Belichick?

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 20, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

heh

I gave up on the patriots after the Super Bowl, because I never really cared about football.

I never wanted the Beckett deal, and I never wanted to extend Lowell.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

I love football.

The Patriots are frustrating of late, though.

Still, love Bill. Anyone who says he’s losing it doesn’t know Bill.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions  

There wouldn't been a 2007 World Series banner at Fenway

without Beckett… Game 5 of 2007 ALCS was do or die. Beckett shut down the Tribe. He was definitely worth the trade with the Marlins in 2005/2006.

by superferret on Dec 20, 2009 3:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Julio Lugo

2007 ALCS: .200/ .231/.280/.511

In Game 2 which we lost in extra innings, Lugo was 0-4. game 3, he was 1-3 when we lost 4-2. Game 4, 0-3 with a GIDP. And people seem to forget that Lugo was bailed out for dropping an easy pop fly in game 7.

Who knows whether Hanley would’ve been better, but I’m willing to take that bet.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Game 5 of the 2007 ALCS

Lugo hit a bunt to continue a rally in the 8th inning that shut the door on the Indians, he also had an important inning out in Game 3 of the 2007 World Series. (Bottom of the 6th IIRC)

I am not a fan of Lugo, but he did show some major league talent here and there. If he actually hit decently, he would had been a pretty good leadoff hitter.. which is one of the reason he was signed.

Dude, it was a trade, we got Beckett. For better or for worse, we have been in the playoffs for the past three years, we were a couple runs away from going back to the WS in 2008.

After the 2005 season, we needed starting pitching, given Clement turned out to be well Clement, Schilling couldn’t throw high heat anymore, and Wakefield had the lowest ERA of the starting rotation! If it wasn’t for Manny’ s and Papi’s bats, it wouldn’t had been a pretty season.

The Sox took a risk, I don’t know if Theo was part of it, given he was on hissy fit sabbatical, but we made the trade to bring a pitcher who pitched well against the MFY, and a good defensive third baseman, who’s swing would be benefit with the Monster.

Trades are suppose to benefit both teams, it isn’t suppose to be a scam… We wouldn’t win the 2007 or been in the 2007 playoffs without Beckett.

by superferret on Dec 20, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you kidding me now?

With Hanley Ramirez instead of Josh Beckett we would’ve lost 6 more games? Be serious.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Starting pitching is worth more than a position player

 I don’t know where you get this six more games..

I don’t know what you are asking, the Sox won a World Series that is tied to the Beckett/Lowell/Ramirez trade. The key for any MLB team is to reach the playoffs, after that anything goes.

The Texas Rangers can tell you about trying to have a winning season with one really good position player, and no money for anything else. (ie A-Rod’ s time with the Rangers)

The Sox made the trade, we needed starting pitching after 2005. The Sox were good in 2007, because they had an okay pitching rotation and the best bullpen in the majors, combine with Papi and ManChild, and some help from Mikey Lowell. I don’t know what more than you want? or feel this was such a disastrous trade….

by superferret on Dec 20, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

You're saying we wouldn't make the '07 playoffs

If we didn’t make the Beckett trade. So you’re effectively saying we would’ve won 9 (not 6, my mistake) fewer games in ’07, which was the difference required for us to be below the Tigers and Mariners in the wild card.

We were not pitching starved in ’06 or ’07. Arroyo is a perfectly fine league-average starter who was cheap, but we flipped him for a 4th outfielder in ’06. Meanwhile we had pitching coming up in the form of Papelbon and Lester, not to mention Buchholz who we all saw was at least capable of some starts in ’07 at the MLB level.

Meanwhile, we have wasted well over $50m at short since the trade and received replacement-level production.

Once again, Hanley > Lugo >> Beckett > Arroyo.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

In 2007

Josh Beckett was worth 6.5 WAR. Hanley Ramirez was worth 5.8 WAR. Mike Lowell was worth 5.3 WAR. So, at least in that year the trade greatly favored the Sox. Without that trade, the Sox probably don’t win in 2007.

Teams made up of good hitters and league average pitchers don’t win. Hanley Ramirez’s worth is in his offense. Only last year was he even an average defensive SS.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 20, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

So if we didn't trade for Lowell

We literally wouldn’t have fielded a third baseman in 2007? The way I see it, we would’ve had an extra 8m for Beckett + 9m for Lugo + 8m for Lowell – 500k for Hanley – 4m for Arroyo, or 20.5m to spend on finding some human to play third base.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions  

What is your problem?

I get that you hate Lowell, although I don’t understand it. I also don’t understand your dislike for Josh Beckett, a player you called “a walking pile of crap.” OK, you don’t like these two players. However, you cannot argue that the Sox would have won in 2007 without them. If you do, you’re not in touch with reality.

You can skew things any way you want. But Beckett and Lowell > Hanley and Bronson Arroyo over the period of time we’re talking about. Arroyo is nothing special. He is a mid-4s FIP pitcher. While the Wily Mo trade was a mistake, losing Arroyo didn’t hurt the Sox long-term.

Your contention that the Sox could have found “some human” to play 3B instead of Lowell is stupid. Have you seen the FA class of 3B in 2005/2006? Do the Jose Hernandezes and Geoff Blums of the world excite you? Lenny Harris, anyone? Who could the Sox have traded for? What prospects would they have had to move?

One final point, do you think the Marlins would have traded Beckett if they didn’t need to cut payroll? They were afraid they could afford him and would lose him to FA. They also wanted top shed Lowell’s contract. The point is, they weren’t shopping for Hanley.

Get a grip. OK?

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 20, 2009 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Totally immature

And frankly, embarrassing if I were you. Don’t tell someone to “get a grip” for having a perfectly viable alternate opinion.

You’re not worthy of engaging in discussion anymore. If an adult would like to talk about the Red Sox, then we can talk.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Sean

It is impossible to have a rational discussion with you because you are irrational. Most of your statements about Lowell and Beckett are colored by your hatred for the two players. Saying the Sox could have found “some human” to play 3B is stupid. What does that mean? I know you hate Lowell—but, come on. He was a 4.0 WAR player from 2006-2008. That’s not easily replaced by “some human.”

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 20, 2009 10:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Girls, girls...

You’re both pretty…

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 20, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

The Red Sox never traded for Lowell, the Marlins just threw him in with Beckett as incentive for Hanley.

by bjchit on Dec 22, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

There are many components for the 2007 World Series win and 2007 season

One of the keys was Beckett.

The Sox pitching failed in 2006, mainly during the Second Boston Massacre five game series with the MFY.

Um if you remember, Lester was out in 2006 because he was diagnosed with cancer..

Theo made a decision in 06 to trade Arroyo, who was the odd man out in the rotation for a bat. Of course in hindsight it wasn’t a great move, but trades are risky moves. Much like the Nomah trade in 2004.

 After the 2005 ALDS. and getting creamed by the lesser Sox. The Red Sox needed to do something about its starting rotation. It took a risk by trading prospects. We could had waited for Beckett to be a FA, but it would probably cost much more to sign him, besides losing two draft picks, if Beckett was Type A free agent.

Of course everything looks obvious in hindsight, but much like Theo signing Lowell to a three year deal instead of a four year deal in 2007/2008, a team has to make risk and manage those risks.

The Marlin trade in 2005/2006 off season was a success for the Sox.
The Sox wouldn’t had been in the World Series if it wasn’t for Beckett’s Game 1 and Game 5 performances…

by superferret on Dec 20, 2009 10:17 PM EST up reply actions  

4.06

Still pretty dam good for the AL East. Fine, Beckett is not dominant, still an excellent pitcher.

End this, cuz the math is simple – no Beckett/Lowell for Hanley NO 2007 Championship. Cleveland would probably celebrating a WS title.

by Scoop1981 on Dec 20, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

How is math =

prognostication?

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Hit enter too soon

It’s Lowell’s fault the Sox didn’t make it to the WS the last two years? And his no yet having happened injuries are too blame

by brogshan on Dec 19, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

If we'd never signed him

We likely would’ve had a third baseman for 2 consecutive years. Because Lowell shouldn’t have been signed after ’07.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I truly don't care

I was advocating any other human besides Mike Lowell. Find somebody for a year until Adam Dunn was ready.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

To play truly horrible 1b?

Dunn only had a WAR of 1.2 for the Nats last year because he can’t defend worth a damn. His UZR/150 at 1st has been -25 and -23 the last two years. How is that any better?

by brogshan on Dec 20, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

1B

is the point. It’s first freaking base. Plus, we need a hitter as well, and the extra .1 OPS probably would’ve helped. And, not for nothing, he’s able to play baseball come October.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, it is.

Which is why I’d expect a wOBA no lower than .330 and no higher than .350. Not good enough for a bad defending 3rd.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 19, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Besides Beltre

Or trading for Gonzalez or Cabrera are there any viable options out there? I’d like to actually know if there are names not just anyone but the baby killing Lowell.

by brogshan on Dec 20, 2009 12:14 AM EST reply actions  

From above

I’d take any replacement level schlub like a Nick Green or Tug or whoever rather than paying $14m to Scutaro over 3 years.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:32 AM EST reply actions  

14 million over three years really isn't that much.

And with a team like the Sox, improvement comes at a high premium. It’s not like we have a gaping hole elsewhere to—

Oh, nevermind. =(

If they do sign Beltre, though, is the Scutaro signing that much better?

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't see how that's a possibility now

We’re already at the supposed upper limit of our cashflow. The problem with throwing big money at crappy players like Lowell, Lugo and Scutaro is that eventually you need that money for a real baseball player, and suddenly it’s gone.

The average SS made 4.44m in 2009, and we’re paying him $7m a year (14m over 2, not 3, my mistake) to at best be slightly below average.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:35 AM EST up reply actions  

At best?

That’s just flat out wrong.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:37 AM EST up reply actions  

i would agree with at best slightly above average

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Also

It’s 6.25/year @ 2 years.

As for being at our upper limits, yeah, we’re right around there. But it’s not inconceivable that Theo could shed some payroll in Kotchman and Hermida—there are certainly teams that wouldn’t balk at taking on their $3 million. I expect we could make a move on Beltre without too much trouble. Especially if we still think we can move $3 million of Lowell’s contract in ST.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:41 AM EST up reply actions  

1.5m buyout

No way we’re paying a 37 year old utility guy an extra 1.5m to take up a roster spot.

Lowell is effectively unmovable, because he has such little value. Considering we couldn’t get a team to take him for a mediocre prospect and 1/4th of his contract, we’re in deep trouble.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I included the buyout.

1 million signing
5 million in the next 2
1.5 million in 2012

1 + 5 + 5 + 1.5 = 12.5/2 = 6.25

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Scutaro

Scutaro was ranked 5th in the Majors at SS according to fangraphs. Highly likely to NOT be that high in 10 but “at best” he’s a pretty good player.

by BobZupcic on Dec 21, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I dunno man i dunno if we could stick with something like that for a whole season. The sox got the money they need to spend it to keep up with the MFY

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 20, 2009 12:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Also, keep in mind that this is paying for what we're definitely going to get

With the understanding that we could get that .379 OBP again. Scutaro’s career year came as the result of much-improved strike-zone numbers, which are less likely to regress than things like BABIP. Scutaro has shown a drastically different plate approach, and it worked.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

How many players

become functional MLB starters at age 33? At his age both defense and offense starts to slide, and considering he’s barely scraping average as it is, he’s not going to stay there for long. He has zero upside, which is why he was a utility journeyman until he was 33 and the team ran out of other options.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:38 AM EST reply actions  

Not a ton

But sometimes it happens, and if it’s going to happen, Scutaro has it going on in the right stats to make that switch. His bump wasn’t superficial.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:42 AM EST up reply actions  

If he puts up a 3 WAR, and I think he's capable of it, that's worth it to me

Scutaro’s “career year” came because they put him in lead-off and his plate discipline really took off. He was Top 25 in all of baseball in Walk %, and that’s the kind of thing you don’t suddenly lose. He’ll regress some, I doubt he puts up another 4+ WAR season, but I don’t really think you’re looking at the underlying cause of his recent success and you’re declaring him DOA before he even gets an AB for the team.

DFA Beckett

by South Coast Ghost on Dec 20, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

It's been fun

But I’ve got to turn in. I don’t think any one is going to change their mind about Lowell, but I don’t think the sky is falling with him on the team.

by brogshan on Dec 20, 2009 12:43 AM EST reply actions  

Ok, seriously

Off topic, but start here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1920.shtml

And look at the SS OPS+ from 1920 until the racist jackass Joe Cronin comes around in 1935. Unbelievable.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:44 AM EST reply actions  

And since he was an above-average player

for the Red Sox in the ’20s, we dumped ’im!

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 12:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Eh

He was retiring, and we actually got a pretty good player out of the deal.

Who was later traded for 5 guys who all sucked, including 2 pitchers who have Wikipedia pages for having the most games with a career record under .500, and another guy who would at one point tie the record for most hits given up in a game (26)

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Sean O

What would your solution be as GM? I am curious to see.

the difference between a yankee stadium hot dog and a Fenway frank is that they dont sell yankee dogs in October anymore.

by fishfarmr on Dec 20, 2009 1:12 AM EST reply actions  

To what?

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 1:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Hanley Ramirez

He is the solution to everything… (Cane Toads beware)

by superferret on Dec 20, 2009 3:04 AM EST up reply actions  

In Australia

They call them “chazzwozzers.”

And do not mock the Boot. Mocking the Boot is a Boot-able offense.

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 20, 2009 3:39 AM EST up reply actions  

so unless I'm greatly mistaken, lowell not moving puts us over the luxury tax limit

so we might as well spend more anyways right?

I still want to see Beltre at third regardless. Lately I’m thinking I’d also love to see Tejada there since he’d likely take a shorter deal, be cheaper, hit better, and probably play well defensively at 3rd base. As a last option, if it turns out he can’t recover from surgery and the rangers won’t take him at that point, we could keep lowell and see how he does at third. It may be our most cost-efficient option.

by wolf9309 on Dec 20, 2009 3:28 AM EST reply actions  

Luxury tax only applies to money over the luxury tax.

In essence, making an 8 million dollar Beltre around a 10 million dollar Beltre. So no, not “may as well”. Besides which, I’m not sure the 3 million tops us off.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 3:33 AM EST up reply actions  

disagree here

first of all, if the chart here (http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/alex-speier/2009/12/15/breaking-bank-look-red-sox-payroll-2010) is accurate, which it looks to me, then Lowell would put us over the CBT line (it only takes into account 9 mill for Lowell). Unless we do amazingly in arbitration or deal someone on that list (even if we dealt hermida, we’d need to find someone VERY cheap to replace him), we’ll be over payroll.

I think if Beltre cost $10 mill for a year and we were already over the CBT, that wouldn’t kill things. I think the biggest issue of the luxury tax is that if we cross the line, it gets bigger next year (when I assume they want to spend more or would not be concerned about it), not the little bit extra it would cost for going just over it this year.

by wolf9309 on Dec 20, 2009 3:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I always forget benefits.

As for Hermida, just move Nava to the majors. Can’t hurt to give him a shot.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 4:13 AM EST up reply actions  

really Nava?

I mean he looks to me like he has great potential (if a little old) but he’s had all of 540 pro at bats, the highest at AA level. Just seems to me like he’ll probably be pretty awful for the first while against MLB pitching if he’s never faced anything higher than AA before.

McDonald looks probably like he could be alright as a pinch runner/late inning replacement (although I won’t say defensive replacement, because he doesn’t sound like a better defender than any of our starting OFs). Possibly one of them is a good option. I might rather give Rocco another shot though, even knowing he’ll be injured.

by wolf9309 on Dec 20, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Rocco will cost money and won't always be available.

We’re not looking for a lot more than a warm body here.

Nava has more than 540 pro at bats. He just has 540 affiliated at bats. All his stints in the various levels of the minors have been us guessing at where he should be. So far, he hasn’t really been phased by any level.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think so

Snuggled right up against it, though…

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 20, 2009 3:41 AM EST up reply actions  

this chart

http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/alex-speier/2009/12/15/breaking-bank-look-red-sox-payroll-2010

has us just over it if we’re paying an extra 3.5 mill for lowell. The arb numbers are estimates, but honestly, they seem a little conservative to me, I wouldn’t be shocked to see the arb numbers higher than that.

by wolf9309 on Dec 20, 2009 3:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Good call

I’m not sure whether Speier means the luxury tax figure is calculated by average annual value, or his chart is calculated by average annual value. In the former, than yes, we are over. If the latter, we may not be…

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 20, 2009 4:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Luxury Tax

Would there be an uprising here if the Red Sox went over the Tax threshold, had to pay an extra $1million in tax, but won the pennant? Just wondering.

by Scoop1981 on Dec 20, 2009 8:13 AM EST up reply actions  

no

it’s not that people care that much about going over, its more of that if you go over, then the luxury tax is significantly higher next year, so if they plan on doing any kind of serious spending next year, it is a bad idea to go over the tax this year.

Also, Theo has said his goal is to stay under it, so you have to assume that John Henry said that was the limit. Who knows, with Lowell gone, they may decide to go a little over, but there are no indications of that so far.

So no, there wouldn’t be an uprising, everyone is just trying to figure out what can reasonably be done with the money limits that we have.

by wolf9309 on Dec 20, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Well...

…we’ve already maxed out our “bracket” in the luxury tax. We pay 40% now, like the Yankees – having gone over more than twice already (which is not to suggest that there’s an parity to the overspending; we’ve paid like 15MM in tax total, the Yanks have paid like 200MM*). The Angels and the Tigers have gone over once each, and would pay like 30% on the next infraction.

Agreed that fans don’t really care if it nets results, but the ability to field a successful club while spending reasonably is a sign of good management, and the tax is a good barometer.

  • - however, I heard a rumor that teams who are servicing stadium debt are exempt from the tax. If so, the Yanks may not have been paying the tax last year or this year…

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 20, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

that seems right

I was under the impression that the Luxury tax bracket went back down after not exceeding it for 2 years, but the only reference I can find to that is a WEEI article, so it’s probably wrong.

by wolf9309 on Dec 20, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Mostly that part about Theo saying he wants to stay under it, though.

Make no mistake, Scoop, nobody here cares if the owner’s pocketbooks are a little emptier. But we’ve heard that they’re unlikely to go over it, so we hope they use that money well, and we work within the boundaries of what we expect is reasonable.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I think we want the owners to be honest about their finances..

  Baseball teams are never honest about their revenues or their net profits. I think fans want to know what is going on if they are making quixotic moves, or jacking up ticket prices by a certain percentage every year.

  The Dodgers are in a tumult because the McCourts are getting a divorce. They say everything is fine, but they didn’t offer arbitration to three players filing for free agency, and lost the draft picks, (rumor has it, they don’t have the money to pay draft picks their signing bonuses)

John Henry is in a pretty high risk business of derivatives, in which his net wealth has dropped a bit since the credit crisis. He still has more money than he can burn, and the Sox are a well run organization, with plenty of revenue streams, but I hope if the Sox run into financial problems as the Diamondbacks in the past with their previous owner, the Dodgers, the Rangers, the Cubs, the Tigers, etc. etc. at least they come clean about it. One of their partners ie the New York Times is desperately trying to sell their stake in the Sox and NESN, (not because of the Sox and NESN, but they need quick cash)

Just don’t sweep financial problems under the rug with a PR answer like “all is well”, or make instant gratification decisions that will financially hurt the team in the future.

by superferret on Dec 20, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Lowell

Wether you wanted the trade or not, Lowell is injured now, needs surgery and will start the season on the DL again, meaning t he Sox still open with Youk at third So this event does not change anything much in the short term unless you were really looking forward to seeing Max Ramirez play.

I don’t see how this would prevent the Sox making a move for Adrian Gonzlez if that deal can get done. If Gonzalez is in Boston in April, the Sox can keep Lowell on the DL until they see if they can use him. If not, just release him. Gotta pay the money anyway. It may make a move for Cabrera more difficult, but I don’t want him anyway.

The Sox could do worse than having Lowell, a consumate pro, around to play in mid-season for a couple of months.

by Scoop1981 on Dec 20, 2009 8:26 AM EST reply actions  

the way it would prevent Adrian Gonzalez from coming

is that Max Ramirez is exactly the type of prospect who San Diego would love to have. So there was some possibility that Hoyer would be willing to accept a little less in the prospects Theo doesn’t want to give up if Ramirez was in the deal.

The recovery time for the surgery is 6-8 weeks, putting him squarely at the beginning of february. He’ll be better by the time the season starts. The only reason the texas trade won’t happen now is that they don’t want to be stuck waiting, so they’ll almost certainly fill that hole in the meantime.

by wolf9309 on Dec 20, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Quite frankly

Unless Max Ramirez was a bust I’m not sure why they’d have wanted to do the deal. There are a lot of DH options out there that will desperately need a job and could flourish in Arlington. I suppose with their ownership up in the air the GM couldn’t make many money commitments, but now that it is settled they could go for some one like Vlad on the cheap for DH.

by brogshan on Dec 20, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah but

none who are as good and close to as cheap as lowell. And while he can’t field very well at the moment, he provides a lot more versatility than someone like Vlad

by wolf9309 on Dec 20, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean

Ramirez has had one bad season in which his wrists were injured. Is that really enough to justify saying he’s probably a bust? look at his numbers before 2009.

by wolf9309 on Dec 20, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

seems like a stretch..........

Really, Max Ramirez is the deal maker/breaker? I don’t think so.

by Scoop1981 on Dec 20, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

well it seems possible to me

if they would be willing Ramirez+ some other good prospects instead of either Kelly or Westmoreland. Theo’s probably not going to do a deal involving both of those guys.

by wolf9309 on Dec 20, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Lowell's defense

I’m not sure all this talk of Lowell having terrible defense is valid. Yes he had a UZR of -10.4, but everyone knows that you cannot reliably use one year samples of UZR. In his time with the Sox he has been -10.4, 11.1, 7.3, and 7.7. Now you might say that his hip injury will limit him going forward and make him closer to the -10.4 than the other numbers, but his hip passed the physical with the Rangers, meaning it is back to normal or at least very close. If he produces his classic .800ish OPS and plays defense more like ‘08 than ’09 he’ll be a decent guy to have.

by Gnick on Dec 20, 2009 1:55 PM EST reply actions  

It's definitely the hip injury that caused it.

A massive shift in UZR combined with a noticeable injury and just plain looking bad in the field (he could not get to many balls on either side of him this year) is usually pretty reliable. Sure, the hip passed the physical, but it’s been “healed” for a while. It’s just that…it’s not something that heals quite all the way.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

This was an eye test

his range was just terrible last year- he got every ball within about a foot of him, but past that not so much.

He has said he’s been able to focus on rebuilding the strength in his hip for the first time this offseason, so maybe there’s a little glimmer of hope, but it’s just that.

by wolf9309 on Dec 20, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

You didn't even need UZR to tell you his range was shot

Not to mention watching him turn former doubles off the Monster into singles because he can barely run. That’s just a bad sign in general.

DFA Beckett

by South Coast Ghost on Dec 20, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

But from everything I've read it takes a year for the hip to heal fully

Wouldn’t that lead to some hope he’ll be improved this season?

by brogshan on Dec 20, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

So then he'll just be a 36 year old

theoretically healed from hip surgery with a major hand injury who wasn’t that good of a hitter to begin with? Oh boy.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 20, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

minor hand surgery

though I agree with the the rest

by wolf9309 on Dec 20, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Not THAT good of a hitter?

OK, Lowell is not a big time slugger now, if he ever was, but still put up some decent numbers last season. What is the alternative now? Kotchman? OK player, but not as good as Lowell. Beltre? Do we really want the Sox to commit to this bust for 3+ years? Not me. Better to go into the season and see how it plays out. Theo will have plenty of options mid-season.
Many are quick to point out the flaws with players but short on alternatives.

by Scoop1981 on Dec 21, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

There is a tremendous amount of disrespect going on here about Lowell, and not simply for sentimental reasons. The guy is a good player now and was a good player last season and can help the Sox in 2010.
From my perspective, I simply look at wether a player is a plus or minus player and go from there. I don’t stop there, just start there when there is a question. For example, Lugo was a minus player for the Sox; he actually hurt the team last season, and most of his tenure with the Sox. I believe Lowell is still a plus player and he can and will help the team win next season.
Lowell is a team guy and a consumate professional. If there is one player that can handle this mess about being traded and then not, it is Lowell. He will not cause any problems with the team. It will likely be the same as last season, Lowell will start the season on the DL, be brought along slowly, maybe DH some early. All in all, not a bad scenario.

by Scoop1981 on Dec 21, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

The Red Sox

seem to disagree. It may just be propaganda, but there are rumblings that he’s not such a great guy in the clubhouse at times.

A no-field, no-bat, broken down 3b making $12m is not deserving of respect. He’s greatly hurt this team’s ability to compete since his game 4 homer in ’07.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 21, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, propaganda

I also heard the rumblings of Lowell being a “clubhouse lawyer”, whatever that means. I heard it on WEEI radio, and more specifically from Rob Bradford, an admitted Red Sox mouthpiece. I’m sure this nugget was passed along by Lucchino or one of his minions.

With the media scrutiny in Boston, I’m sure we would have heard something before this. Kinda funny how we only hear these things when a player in on his way out of town. Not one teamate, including loudmouth Schilling, never shy to offer opionion, as ever had anything bad to say about Lowell.

I’m not saying Lowell is the answer for 2010 sucess, just that he can help and why dump him or dump on him without a better alternative.

by Scoop1981 on Dec 21, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

-14.4 UZR/150

Unless his hip has healed magically well, even with the full year, he’s done. He can’t hit anywhere near well enough for a DH or 1b, and he can’t field.

We need someone who can help at 3b, not someone with a sub-.800 OPS and no glove killing ABs and starting rallies for the other team.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 21, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Alternatives?

Beltre? Good field, $14mil. X 3-4 years. Youk at first, who needs Adrian Gonzalez?

by Scoop1981 on Dec 21, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

paying $14 mill for Beltre

would be outrageous. He’s got a lot of potential but is a questionable age and is coming off a terrible injured season. He’ll be a lot cheaper than that. If he signs for more than Figgins did, somebody screwed up. I do think Beltre would be a good fit, just not near that price.

Another one nobody mentions since we got a shortstop is Tejada. His range has diminished at ss quite a bit, but he’s got a great glove and could probably still play solid D at 3rd. He almost always provides a solid bat and could be a decent pickup if lowell is unable and Boras keeps Beltre overpriced (and if he’s willing to switch to 3rd, which he’s been stubborn about so far).

by wolf9309 on Dec 21, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

What wolf said

Beltre for $14m? Not even close. Considering the apparently lack of suitors, I’d think it’d be closer to half of that.

What I thought would happen is Beltre goes the Abreu route and signs a 1 year contract for 8-10m to rebuild his value.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 21, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

OK

I’m on board for Beltre for one year at 8-10 mil. Mr. Boras????

by Scoop1981 on Dec 21, 2009 2:03 PM EST reply actions  

Wait a minute....

Sign Beltre and release Lowell? Seriously. What do they do with Lowell if they sign Beltre or another 3B?

by Scoop1981 on Dec 21, 2009 2:04 PM EST reply actions  

Yes, they do

The FO has finally realized, 2 years too late, that Lowell cannot be our 3b anymore. They clearly do not see him as a viable option in any way.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 21, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

they already were going to eat 3/4 of Lowell's salary

in exchange for a prospect and a free roster spot.

Would they be willing to eat 100% of Lowell’s salary to free that roster spot?

Maybe.

by mmmmm on Dec 21, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

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