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Josh Beckett and John Lackey: Today's Schilling and Pedro

It's safe to say that the Red Sox signing John Lackey came as a surprise to the entirety of Red Sox Nation. No one saw it coming. Theo Epstein didn't even hint at it coming. He held his cards as close as possible to his chest and then threw down two aces to take the pot.

It was a bold, calculated move.

And we've all seen it before, especially here in "The Nation": bold, calculated moves put shiny rings on your fingers.

Star-divide

It didn't click with me right off the bat what John Lackey means to the Red Sox. Yes, he's an ace. Yes, he could be the No. 1 pitcher for almost any baseball team in the world. Yes, he has one of the highest-paid right arms in the world.

It's not that simple, though. There's so much more to Lackey as a Red Sox.

Do you remember 2004? I know it sounds like a stupid question to ask a Red Sox fan, but let me rephrase to something a little more specific. Do you remember 2003? Specifically, the end of the year? To give you an exact date, it was Nov. 23, 2003.

That was the day the Red Sox traded for Curt Schilling.

Talking about Lackey and Schilling in the same breath should stir up some similarities. Beyond the physical (both bigger guys), they are both pitchers that wanted the ball every day. Hurt or broken, it didn't matter. They're feisty pitchers. They're loud pitchers. They will say what's on their mind and slam their fastball down your throat.

That's just how they do things.

But Schilling's presence in 2004 was more than his ability on the mound. It's what he brought to the team. Namely, he brought competition. His opponent? Pedro Martinez.

From Seth Mnookin's book, Feeding The Monster:

No one was more upset by [Curt] Schilling's arrival than Pedro Martinez

[...]

For all his light-heartedness, Martinez was also driven by an irrational (and slightly contrived) fear of being disrespected and the Red Sox's pursuit and acquisition of Schilling gnawed at him. Boston, afer all, was supposed to be his town. "I can't help that they wanted to sign Schilling," Martinez said in February

[...]

Martinez's wounded pride could, potentially, have been a good thing for the Red Sox. Martinez was most effective when he felt as if he had something to prove...

[...]

With Schilling on board, Martinez wondered if the Red Sox were planning on keeping him around beyond the 2004 season, and without a contract, he was both hesitant to risk further injury and worried about giving the impression he was less than totally healthy.

Pedro, on the downward slope of his career, was pushed by Schilling. Pedro thought he was the team's ace; not Schilling. Pedro thought he was the star; not the new guy. Pedro still had a lot left to prove with the team he's been with for many years.

The same rings true for Josh Beckett.

Beckett is a lot like Pedro, Schilling and Lackey. He's a true competitor that wants to just play baseball until his arm falls off. He'll yell, scream and throw pitches at players' heads as a warning sign if that is what needs to be done. It boils down to this: he wants to prove he's great. He doesn't want anyone else to be better than him, even if it is a teammate.

The similarities between Schilling/Pedro and Lackey/Beckett are there. Schilling and Lackey came on as an ace from another team. Pedro and Beckett have been aces for the Red Sox, until the new guy shows up and wants to prove what he can do. Pedro and Beckett are also entering the last year of their contracts when the new guy shows up.

Pedro went on to have a great season in 2004 (not quite "Pedro-esque," but still a great season). Schilling and Pedro, together, went on to lead the Red Sox to their first World Series championship in 86 years. Beyond what Schilling did on the mound, do you think he had a bigger effect on that championship?

Of course there are differences between Schilling/Pedro and Lackey/Beckett. One, is that in 2004, Schilling and Pedro were better overall than Lackey/Beckett is today. Lackey and Beckett are two of the best pitchers in the majors today, but back in 2004 -- and the years prior -- Schilling and Pedro were just out of this world. We all know of Pedro's dominance, but Schilling was right there, too.

From all accounts, it seems like Beckett wants to be with the Red Sox in the future. His contract is up after this year, but Theo Epstein has already told him -- actually, texted him -- that Lackey's signing has no barring on his future. (Similar sentiments were shared with Pedro, as well.)

Lackey's presence puts a fire under Beckett's butt to perform. Both -- with Jon Lester, can't forget about him -- are going to battle to prove they are the team's ace. This, as you could already tell, should lead to good results for both the individuals and the team.

I have a good feeling this year about Lackey, Beckett and the Boston Red Sox. How are you feeling?

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I Bet Lackey and Beckett

get along really well. Both Texas guys, both hunters. Trust me, these guys will be best friends at the end of the year.

by SoxAcumen on Dec 18, 2009 1:02 PM EST reply actions  

in the press conference

Lackey said he’d hung out with Beckett at the all-star game they were in together, but they didn’t really know each other.

by wolf9309 on Dec 18, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

ah - that's probably it

the radio talking head i got that from probably relayed the same story as “they became buddies at the all star game”.

by mmmmm on Dec 18, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Beckett may be our Pedro and Lackey may be our Schilling

But I think at the end of the day, Lester is our Ace. What a rotation- when Dice-K is your number 5 starter, you know it’s a good rotation.

I hate moves like the signing of Lackey because I despise the deal, but I’m really excited to see this rotation in action. Too excited to keep being upset about it.

by wolf9309 on Dec 18, 2009 1:05 PM EST reply actions  

Yes, I agree:

“…I’m really excited to see this rotation in action. Too excited to keep being upset about it.”

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by Randy Booth on Dec 18, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I was thinking the same thing

The Pedro and Schilling comparison is apt… But Lester might very well end up on top

by brogshan on Dec 18, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Which I account for

Because Lester is quite dirty. I’ll have a post about this before the season starts… (I have the idea, just dont’ know when I should ‘unleash’ it.)

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by Randy Booth on Dec 18, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

No doubt

Lester is the stud of the franchise. But nice parts eh? Beckett and Lackey as #2 and #3.

by SoxAcumen on Dec 18, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Beckett is NOTHING like Pedro

And he shouldn’t even be compared.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 18, 2009 1:26 PM EST reply actions  

This.

To zobrist; verb – to overlook the superiority of a person or object based on misleading sensory or conversational factors. e.g. "My teacher totally zobristed me on that paper – I’d included all the points he asked for but I didn’t drone on about Grover Cleveland enough. He’s totally biased towards Cleveland. What’s worse is that Danny Dukowski got an A, and his prose style is terrible. He’s a total Victorino." deadspy3 - Amazin' Avenue

by bloodysock04 on Dec 18, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

The situation is the same. As I said before, Schilling/Pedro are in a different universe then compared to Lackey/Beckett now.

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by Randy Booth on Dec 18, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

See, i'm touchy

because to me Pedro is a god, and Beckett is a walking pile of crap.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 18, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Pedro is a God

Beckett is NOT a walking pile of crap, though.

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by Randy Booth on Dec 18, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you there

Beckett is good. Very good. Better than Lackey I would say.

by Schulz on Dec 18, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Were you alive in 2007? The guy won us a World Series. He will always be okay with me.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 18, 2009 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Jus' like Janet says, mandingo.

What have you done for me lately?

:/

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

by Bloggy on Dec 18, 2009 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

The guy was on a World Series winning team

He pitched very well in ‘07, but he was atrocious all of ’06 and screwed us in the playoffs these last two years. He’s horribly overrated and in turn we gave up the 2nd best player in the NL for a guy with a 4.05 ERA here.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 18, 2009 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Hypothetically

I say the delta of Hanley vs. Lugo > Beckett vs. Arroyo.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 18, 2009 11:42 PM EST up reply actions  

So we would have won a World Series by a greater margin if the trade was not made? That is your complaint?

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 20, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

He's actually been fantastic while here

His ’08 was as good as his ’07 by the more sophisticated methods of analysis, K/BB, FIP, etc. And his ’09 was Cy Young worthy before that bad stretch in the end of August.

by Gnick on Dec 18, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually...

it was the fact that everyone pretty much forgot how to swing a bat this post-season is why we lost in the playoffs, are pitching was decent.

Sodomize Intolerance

by sonicdeathmonkey on Dec 19, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Lester

I wouldnt go as far as to say Lester is the Ace yet (he will one day be) but if Beckett and Lackey are the new Pedro and Schill…..i would say Lester is a huge upgrade from D-Lowe!

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 18, 2009 1:50 PM EST reply actions  

Dice-K is an upgrade over DLowe

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 18, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Wake's the man

I love the guy. He’ll be in rotation on Opening Day, unless he gets hurt…

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by Randy Booth on Dec 18, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

you think so?

in preference to who? assuming we have all these starters when April rolls around.

I think he’s the ultimate depth man at the moment.

That said, he IS the man.

by wolf9309 on Dec 18, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

You gotta keep Wake around

even if they don’t trade Buch.

Someone is bound to get hurt or slump or whatever. Wake can keep sharp doing regular middle relief, probably with Dice-K. Dice-K pitches 5-6 followed by 2-3 by Wake before Pap or Bard closes it out. I don’t think Wake’s body should be expected to handle irregular bullpen work – that can be rough.

Wake is definitely the man, though. I’ve always loved what he means to the rotation in a series, sandwiched between fireball pitchers.

by mmmmm on Dec 18, 2009 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Wakefield + Bard should be an illegal combination

Having to hold off on pitches long enough to deal with Wakefield’s 55-70 mph delivery, and then having to adjust back to Bard’s nearly-triple digit fireballs? That sounds like an absolutely unfair set of adjustments to have to make in a single game.

by lone1c on Dec 18, 2009 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd actually

be very interested in see some sort of Dice-K/Wake tandem go out and a regular basis. I guess it wouldn’t be too efficient, but it’s not like Wake cost more than a reliever would.

by brogshan on Dec 18, 2009 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

If we don't trade Buch

I could see him opening the season in the bullpen, waiting for someone to come up lame.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 19, 2009 12:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Wha?

Or, y’know, as our fourth starter…

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 19, 2009 1:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Dice-K and Buchholz will be the fourth and fifth starters if Buc stays

by cnubsbl16 on Dec 19, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Yessir

Buch started Game 3 of the ALDS a few months back. He has earned his spot in the rotation. Sending him elsewhere would just be unnecessarily frustrating a kid who’s been pretty frustrated the last year.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 20, 2009 12:53 AM EST up reply actions  

agreed.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 20, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

he'll be a starter to begin the year

over wake. Everyone loves wake, but they’re not that nostalgic.

by wolf9309 on Dec 19, 2009 3:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Wake can't pitch out of the pen.

Do you think we’d DL him if he’s healthy?

I don’t.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 19, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

He's 43.

With a bad back. He needs a routine.

Plus, not exactly the guy you want coming into a high pressure situation. If he’s throwing well, the catcher can’t catch him.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 19, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't want to hinder Buch's progress anymore

Buch needs a slot in the starting rotation, he deserves it.

by Gnick on Dec 19, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

yup exactly

not starting him at this point after the way he performed last year is just an insult to him.

I think Wake will end up pitching out of the pen, but with some regularity- a couple innings every few days, something not unlike what Wagner did when he first came over last year.

by wolf9309 on Dec 19, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Nope.

Just not that excited. Optimistic, but not that excited.

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 18, 2009 3:08 PM EST reply actions  

Lester is our ace

Beckett is no Pedro, but Beckett/Lester/Lackey is better than Pedro/Schilling/Lowe, especially considering that Pedro’s 2004 was his worst for the Sox.

by Gnick on Dec 18, 2009 4:49 PM EST reply actions  

#4 and 5

And Buchholz/Dice-K/Wakefield is better than Arroyo/Wakefield

Speaking of which, who doesn’t get to start at the beginning of the season?

by Schulz on Dec 18, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Buch

If Wake is healthy, he’ll start. Unless Buch is unhittable in ST, I see him working out of the bullpen, keeping his IP down and waiting for someone to come up lame.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 19, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

I think Buch has worked his time not starting

last time I think he earned his place, and i think the team will reward him with a starting spot in 2010. After the season ended, Theo said to pencil him in at the three spot. Clearly, that was before they realized Lackey was interested, so he moved to 4, but he’s still there.

by wolf9309 on Dec 19, 2009 3:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Wake

I think it has to be Wakefield barring a trade….still coming off of an injury, able to pitch whenever needed and the knuckler isn’t as good in the colder weather.

That said, Wakefield has given so much to the Sox and I’ll tip my proverbial cap to him when he decides to hang them up

by BobZupcic on Dec 18, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Isn't it nice having a starting catcher

who can catch everyone on the team?

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Dec 18, 2009 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, Randman, thanks for trying to put a positive spin on this for me

But I’m still not buying it. But don’t worry.

You’ve got 5 more years to convince me.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

by Bloggy on Dec 19, 2009 8:16 AM EST reply actions  

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