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Lust for the Lackeyluster (or: How I Learned to Start Worrying, and Hate the Deal)

If you're a Red Sox fan, it's hard not to like Theo Epstein. Sure, maybe not all his deals pan out, but how critical can you be of the man who led the Sox to two World Series titles. For Theophiles, there's a tendency to look at every deal as a brilliant coup. Which is why I'm looking at the Lackey deal, and the proposed trades that might result from it, very closely.

Signing Lackey is an exciting move - he's the best free agent starter on the market, and getting him makes our rotation more intimidating for 2010. And yet, I HATE this deal.

Let's be clear about this: Lackey is good, not great. His career FIP is 3.83; by comparison, Beckett's is 3.61, Sabathia's is 3.59, and Halladay's is 3.47. A more comparable player is A. J. Burnett, whose FIP is also 3.83, although Burnett is a better strikeout pitcher (career 8.37 K / 9, vs. Lackey's 7.2 K / 9). For this, we would commit over $16 million a year to Lackey, for five years, making him the highest-paid player on the team (until Beckett gets extended).

Furthermore, there are strong indications that Lackey won't provide much value over the course of his contract. Matthew Carruth at Fangraphs lists two big reasons to be concerned about Lackey: health (Lackey only averaged 170 innings the past two years) and declining stats (higher walk rates, fewer K's). I'm not terribly distressed by his health, but more walks and fewer Ks are very worrisome, especially when Lackey wasn't the best strikeout pitcher to begin with. Lackey may be worth his $16 million in years 1 and 2 of the deal, but years 3, 4 and 5 could be quite ugly.

I think this move is more about hurting the Yankees and Angels. Lackey made great sense for the Yanks, who need another starter to join Pettitte. The Angels suffer even more, especially now that Halladay and Lee are both off the market. However, beyond 2010 both teams can recover, especially by dipping into the next free agent pool (which has Webb). So for one year of pain for the LAA of A and NYY, the Sox are taking on an expensive, declining free agent. [Click Continue Reading for why this deal doesn't fit Theo's M.O., and possible trade implications.]

Star-divide

Generally, Theo stays away from inking the best free agent on the market (exception: shortstops). If the Red Sox do sign a top-flight free agent, he's either a shortstop or an underrated player (see Drew, J.D.). But a player like Lackey is not underrated or undervalued, and he doesn't come at any discount. Over Theo's tenure, the Sox have been building their rotations around players they traded for (Beckett, Schilling) or developed (Lester, Buchholz). This strategy has been both cost-effective and successful, and the few times we've departed from it (see Matt Clement) haven't produced results.

Because Lackey's signing was elective (like plastic surgery, which he needs, btw), there's rampant speculation that a Buchholz trade may be in the works.  Signing Lackey fills the #3 starter role, and allows Clay to be moved with others for a player like Adrian Gonzalez or Miguel Cabrera. Both of those players are great hitters, and a blockbuster trade is probably the only way to get either of them.

And then what? The Sox have to extend AGon (think $18 million + per year) to keep him past 2011, or pay Cabrera's gargantuan salary. Between Lackey and Cabrera / AGon you've got nearly $40 million in two players. By contrast, Buchholz + Adrian Beltre is unlikely to cost more than $20 million, even assuming big arb raises for Buchholz. That means more money to keep players like Josh Beckett, Victor Martinez, Ellsbury, Papelbon, Bard, etc. The Sox could also have passed on Lackey and saved money to sign upcoming free agents like Webb, Mauer, Pujols, etc. Without a major expansion of Red Sox payroll, the Lackey signing and a big trade could severely restrict the team's options in the future.

Buchholz may never be as good as Lackey, but he will be cheaper. I would argue that Buchholz has a small chance of being much better than Lackey, of becoming an elite pitcher like Halladay or Schilling. With all the trades we turned down to keep him (especially the Johan Santana deal), it seems crazy to send him packing now.

The Lackey signing is unnecessary, wasteful and could conceivably hurt the team down the road. Much like the Scutaro deal, it seems directly at odds with Theo's long-term, farm-centered strategy. I don't like it, and neither should you.

Poll
If you were GM of the Red Sox, which of the following would you have done?
Sign John Lackey, and trade Buchholz for Adrian Gonzalez / Miguel Cabrera.
338 votes
Sign John Lackey, keep Buchholz, move Wake to the pen.
127 votes
Sign John Lackey, sign Bay / Holliday, trade for Adrian Gonzalez, and rename the team Yankees East.
145 votes
Decline Lackey, keep Buchholz, save money for Pujols / Mauer in 2010.
207 votes
Something completely different.
56 votes
I never wanted to be a General Manager - I wanted to be a Lumberjack, swinging from tree to tree!
77 votes

950 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 244 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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I've always wanted to be a lumberjack...

SB Nation's Boston Red Sox community:
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Follow Randy on Twitter: @RCBooth

by Randy Booth on Dec 15, 2009 12:38 PM EST reply actions  

I do wear quite a bit of flannel

SB Nation's Boston Red Sox community:
OverTheMonster.com
Follow Randy on Twitter: @RCBooth

by Randy Booth on Dec 15, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I do as well.

I am stuck in the 90s.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

by Bloggy on Dec 16, 2009 6:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Anyone confused by the reference

Should see this.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Dec 15, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

One Assumption

You assume the Red Sox will keep him the whole length of the deal. They might not. They could get 2 good/great years out of him and send him packing. This assumes they don’t trade Clay and develop also develop a few other pitchers who are more budget friendly.
I think this week we learned we can’t be sure what Theo will do.

"simul justus et peccator"

by cavman on Dec 15, 2009 12:42 PM EST reply actions  

If they send him packing

you can bet that Theo and Co. will be eating most of that contract anyway.

Introducing the new 2008 Big 12 Football Champions: OU, UT*, TT*, and MU*!
Now Introducing the new 2009 Big 12 Baseball Tournament Champions: UT, KSU*, BU*, and MU*!

by mystman995 on Dec 15, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

It's amazing how many contracts they've eaten

Lugo, Renteria, Manny, now Lowell.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Dec 15, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Would anyone be surprised if Tek was added to that list?

Using our financial advantage, I guess.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice post, E-coli

I couldn’t agree more.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 12:56 PM EST reply actions  

same here!

my view posted earlier today on the “What Kind of Day Has it Been?” thread is identical to yours, down to the Burnett comparison. While I usually agree with you, in this case I think I can say I agree with every single word. Too bad we agree it is a shitty contract ;(.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Make that three of us.

There is nothing good about this. It sucks on multiple levels.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

by Bloggy on Dec 15, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

There's NOTHING good about this?

C’mon, now, as much as you might dislike the money, Lackey is a good pitcher. This gives us the best rotation in the game, and gives us a good shot at overtaking the Yanks next year if they don’t do anything more.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 15, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

money aside I would rather have Lackey than not, and said as much. But the way this contract is constructed, the “aside” is the whole story.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

True

But he hasn’t been 100% for two years now. If healthy, and if Buchholz isn’t moved in a deal, this rotation could be something special. My biggest worries are:

(1) I can’t see Lackey giving back equal value even if he stays healthy for the next five years.
(2) Since Beckett is the better and more durable pitcher, how much will the Sox have to pay to keep him?
(3) I don’t like the idea of Lackey as Beckett insurance since Beckett is better.
(4) If Theo really wanted to hand out long-term contracts for play money, why not break the bamk for Sabathia last year? CC is MUCH better than Lackey.

But I do agree with you, USG. The Sox did improve their rotation in the short run.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I really do wish I could talk with the FO about what compelled them to break out the big money now.

Also why they decided to pass on, say, Chone Figgins if they were going to do this all along.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 15, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

It is really surprising-

they did not push the extra step for Teixiera last year, but dish out this contract? Totally inconsistent. And as I said, if you are going to break the bank, do so for CC who is a once in every 5 year type pitcher, not an AJ Burnett clone. I wonder if there is some weird stuff going on with Henry pushing is strange ways.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, who knows what they were thinking last year? Maybe they gained access to new money? Who knows.

But Teix wasn’t coming here. That’s on his wife.

And Lackey isn’t an AJ clone. AJ is the type of guy you don’t depend on because, while he can have good games, he blows up with regularity too. He’s kind of like Wakefield on a really good year. Lackey is the more consistent choice, which is certainly preferred when you’re not a team that needs shutouts to win.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 15, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

"That’s on his wife."

True. I’ve got inside info.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 15, 2009 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the CC

question is simply answered that Theo put everything into getting Teixeira and at the time he didnt feel the need to sign another arm. Before spring training Boston thought they had a new #1 with Lester and a returning 18 game winner in Dice-K, plus two veterans in Penny and Smoltz.

Its only money, its not like the Red Sox have been frugal in the past couple years. They did eat 4 or 5 contracts.

If the Red Sox gave up prospects in a trade, I would agree with you, but since its only money, this deal means nothing. Lackey got a fair deal when you look at Burnett’s deal and what Halladay is getting in an extension and he is a quality arm who has had some injuries, but so has Beckett.

Its only money and the Red Sox have a ton of it.

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

But

you do realize that the more contracts you eat the worse off you are. Eventually you hit a wall of $$. The Sox are going to eat a lot of this contract. Can they push for a Pujols or a Mauer? Seems no. It used to be that Theo only really was willing to toss the big $$ at a guy that had all the qualities-age, defense, offense, etc. A guy like Tex. I just don’t see Lackey at all like that…

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I was just about to post the same thing

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I am not one who believes there is an end to the money

Boston is one of the most successful teams in professional sports and their value has risen significantly in the past decade. They have an income in the MLB second only to the Yankees, they are 1st in a major baseball market in Japan and compete in Latin countries.

Evidence of their contracts over say the past 5 years is with my assumption that the Sox have almost an unlimited amount of money.

They would of paid Teixeira 20 million a year last season and I am betting they will offer the next big FA something similar whether that is Mauer, Pujols or King Felix. Only the Yankees can outbid them.

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

We'll see.

Not that I’m going to feel good about becoming our own evil empire.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 15, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait

if the Yankees can outbid them how can there not be an end to the money? Can you elaborate? Also why then has the teams payroll never exceeded 150 (except now for 2010 when it will be like 170)? And lastly if that is true, why did they draw the line with Tex? Does this not seem weird? Why baloon the payroll for guys like Lackey who have little chance of being worth it, when you draw a line in the sand on the better guy?

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I dont think Lackey signing had anything to do with the money.

Beckett is not going to resign. They offered to Bay 10 months ago and nothing happened. Something similar could happen with Beckett, maybe the tried to extend him and he blew them off? They needed another reliable arm, which Lackey fits.

Teixeira never wanted to play for the Red Sox, Boras used the Sox to up the Yankee offer.

My point on money is that if the Yankees and Red Sox competed for every player the Yankees have more resources with NYC and their radio/TV stations to offer more money, but in a straight up battle for 1 player both can offer insane contracts and blow it off, just like both can eat multiple contracts.

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

You are 100% right that this was a choice of Lackey or Beckett.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

and as for Lackey

I think he got a fair deal when you look at other pitchers and what they got in the past.

Did the Yankees over pay for CC and Burnett? Sure ill agree with that, but the Yankees usually set the market since they are willing to pay. Lackey got a comparable deal. Next FA pitcher who comes out will take Lackey’s or CC’s deal as the basis of their negotiations depending on which type of pitcher they are… Ace or #1/#2 type.

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

If the Yankees overpaid

for AJ then we just did the same. I think you would agree, no?

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

sure, but they set the market

Every agent sees what AJ got and says now my FA client should get that money bc AJ got it.

This has been going on for a while. I remember when Denny Neagle got a ridiculous deal from Colorado and set the new standard for #2/#3 type pitchers.

The deal might be stupid and foolish, but its now the new market standard for those arms.

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps.

But didn’t Halliday just agree to 20mill a year with the Phillies? Halladay >> Lackey.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Incorrect.

Halladay is 15 months older, and shows absolutely zero signs of slowing down. He had one of his best years every last year. He will age well (cutter/curveball pitcher). Lackey-basically same age and already declining. So…how is that “market rate”? Halladay should be worth twice as much based on 2009 results.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you see that

he was worth 17 million more based on Fangraphs scale? Even if you think that absolute scale is crap, it means he should be getting 34 million if Lackey is worth 17 million. So SA argument is crap. Interestingly, 34 million is what Fangraphs says he is worth.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Halladay would have cost Buch, Kelly, more prospects and all that money. Signing Lackey was a better option than selling the farm for Halladay.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

sure

but that’s not my point. I didn’t wan’t Halladay for the price. My point is if Lackey is “market rate” why did Halladay settle for 20 million?

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

because there's a ceiling of what teams will pay

no matter how good you are. If he hits FA, Pujols should probably be making $30 mill+/year, but he probably won’t.

Halladay has said in the past he wanted his money to reflect that he was respected but has not been out for breaking records by getting paid the most.

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't get this

it was not a “sign and trade” and he had a full no trade. He could have held out for what he thinks he is worth, which is a lot more than 3 illion more than Lackey.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

He wanted to go play on a championship team.

He didn’t want to prolong it based on money.

Some people simply aren’t willing to hold out for more.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 15, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he gave up money to get out of Toronto as soon as possible. Also, he signed a full year before free agency and eliminated the risk that would come by playing this full season then looking for a contract.

Do we know the exact terms of the deal yet?

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

right which makes Lackeys deal...

even if its ridiculous v. other arms in MLB, about right. They overpaid but not by as much as everyone is saying on this board. They probably overpaid by 5 -10 million for the only FA arm available in this years FA. At least a #1 type of arm.

I just dont think it matters to Theo that much. 5 or 10 million.

The years do scare me some, that I will agree with.

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Nope

see above please. Basically same age. Halladay showing better progression at his age, and was worth…17 million more last year by WAR. SEVENTEEN MILLION.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

except

Lackey (who is actually getting more…)-so if so, Lackey’s contract is way above “market rate.” Q.E.D.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

basically the same as last year.

with more innings and somewhat worse results.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

"Worse results"

Why do you say this? Because some guy on fangraphs said he expected less Ks? If anything, he should be better than he was last year. Check out how much better he performed the further away he got from his early season injury.

by Gnick on Dec 15, 2009 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Easy

you forget to take into consideration that he goes from a run neutral/run suppressing park/division to a run imflating park and division. Even if you do not include regression for age (you should as his number are trending down) you need to for this. Crudely, using last years park factors this would mean an ERA of 3.7 would translate to one of 3.9. Of course that is totally crude, but it gets the point across that one should expect worse results even if he pitched identically to recent years.

Note also that Lackey is not built well for Fenway. Groundball pitchers can mitigate park factor issues, but Lackey is neither a high K nor high GB pitcher. The profile of his batter ball results show why tRA values him even less than FIP does.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

but Lackey is not competing with Halladay

my point is that the market has set the price and Lackey will use what the market has set, with AJ or CC and use that as the foundation of a negotiation.

I have no idea if Lackey’s five years will equal the amount we pay him. Most likely not, but when you look at contracts given to pitchers in his category, the Red Sox did not overpay in terms of what others got. 17 million is what his performance is worth according to certain stats, its not what Lackey is worth when you take into consideration other #1s and #2 get, have gotten or will get in the future.

The Red Sox overpaid by 5-10 v. the market to get the only legitimate #1 pitcher on the FA market. His performance and what its worth according to these stats is irrelevant once the Red Sox decided to sign him.

"stats are for losers and final scores are for winners."
Bill Belichick

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

in addition

over the time of his contract, contract values will likely continue to inflate. In 2014, he won’t need to pitch as well to be worth $16.5 million as he does in 2010.

I still don’t much like the deal, but economically, it is a point to take into consideration.

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Look,

he is a good pitcher and I hope he works out for the team for 5 years. If money is no issue, and the team can dump sunken cost anywhere, sign anyone, than I have no issue with this (well, I have a small issue with it from the enjoyment side of being a fan, but it is not a big issue and it matters not anyway). However, the team up until now has not shown that is is willing to:
a)exceed 150 million
b)over pay guys (except the obvious bad Lugo-like contracts that I hope is not a mirror for Lackey).
c)make a guy the highest paid player on the team that is not in a position of greatest need or a special player (we can debate Drew, but basically I think it has been consistent).

Again, if money is not going to be an issue moving forward who cares. I am not sure, so we will see.
c)

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Ill agree with that

but you have to see this from Theo’s business POV. He wanted a reliable arm and the price was set last season. Lackey was the only option in FA.

He could trade for an arm but that would be a double cost of money + prospects. So I dont think the deal is that bad when you take into consideration the deal that AJ got and the prospects saved.

basically Lackey is Dice-K in terms of contracts. Yes, he was overpaid by performance, but not when you look at what others got or other teams are willing to pay in 2009.

"stats are for losers and final scores are for winners."
Bill Belichick

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

well

Dice-K actually yearly salary is much lower (he made 14.6 million in 07+08 combined). The posting fee was in excess of 50 million, but that is akin to a “stadium rennovation” in that it does not count at all towards the luxury tax.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

This is the reason why FA is so important to MLB players

IF you make it to FA and you are a covetted type A player and you have no competition for your position, you can set the amount you want and you will probably get it.

This theory is the basis for my reasoning why Felix will not sign and extension and why most likely Lincecum will do something similar. They have a chance to get insane amounts of money and set a new market standard.

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

found this somewhere on the interweb

Too lazy to confirm the numbers:

Against the Yankees, Lackey has gone 5 and 7 in his 16 career starts giving up 115 hits in 102.1 innings pitched with 12 home runs and 42 BB. His career ERA against the Yankees home and away is 4.66 with a WHIP of 1.53 and a .289 batting average against that team

by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Dec 15, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

not a very large sample

size. I recall CC had a 7ERA in the playoffs going into this year.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

my point exactly

in 2 years, if Lackey stays healthy and consistent, his contract will be considered a deal.

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Those are two big "ifs"

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

True

Also, if Lackey stays healthy and consistent at his current rate, the contract isn’t a deal. In that case, Lackey will be only be slightly overpaid. However, Lackey shows no signs that he’ll hold up for five years—and, more importantly, Lackey’s numbers are already declining.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

"Hold Up"

What are you basing this on that Lackey will not “hold-up”. The man started 27 games last year and was obviously cleared by the medical staff of Boston. He had some minor injuries at the end of 08/start of 09 but looked mighty fine to me in the playoffs and prior to that he had pitched 32/33 games for 5 years straight. The guy is only 31 years old and stands 6-6 245lbs.

In the 2nd half of last season
7-4 3.05 ERA, Batters’ OPS 0.667

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

These long pitching contracts rarely work out. Lackey might be an exception. I hope so.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Let's see:

1)The fact that his peripherals are showing a neraly linear decline
2)The fact that he has not thrown more than 175 inning since 07.
3)The fact that he has thrown less innings then the supposedly fragile AJ Burnett over the last 3 years.
4)The fact that he is “only” 31 and tands 6-6 245.

Long pitching contract=bad. Almost always. When a pitcher starts declining you can mark your clocks. Lackey, BTW is not a high K pitcher nor is he a low FB pitcher…let’s see how well he does in the East. Would be sad if really what we got is Andy Pettitte.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

your linear decline

is based on three data points (07, 08, 09) with the tail end of ’08 and the start of ’09 both crimped by the same minor injury event.

by mmmmm on Dec 15, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Incorrect

his linear decline in peripherals starts from 05 on…check his FIP. In fact, his K rate has gone down every single year from 05 on…

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

true but

his walk rate is much better and his WHIP has improved from 2005.

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

his walk rates have gotten worse

since 07. And WHIP is a really dumb stat.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

That WHIP!

Whoa are you saying that a stat used in 5×5 fantasyy baseball is dumb!!…..Ron Shandler just looked up from his spreadsheet

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

FIP isn't a great stat either

It’s insane to suggest that all balls hit into play are hit equally well, and therefore all equally as likely to result in hits. Anyone who watched John Smoltz last year can attest to this.

by Gnick on Dec 15, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

you don't understand FIP

FIP does not ignore batted ball profile, it merely weights it differently than tRA. It looks like it sets this to 0 but it does not-see:

http://www.3-dbaseball.net/2009/10/evaluating-pitchers-with-fip-part-i.html#

To suggest a stat where a walk=a HR is somehow as flawed as FIP is completely wrong.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn’t say FIP ignored all balls in play, I said that it treats them all the same, which it does.

by Gnick on Dec 15, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions  

But that fact is that past FIP’s tend to be much more predictive of future ERA than past-ERA. That is the value of FIP.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you need to read the article more closely

While nothing about GB/FB/LD appears in the formula, it absolutely does not ignore the difference of a triple, double, single, etc. It calculates the aveage frequency of these outcomes, weighs them, and that is what adjusts the weights of the other terms. If doubles were more common than they are, the multiplier of the other terms (eg BB, HR, etc) would differ. You may claim that pitchers (like Smoltz) can control (or not) the amount of 2bs the give up relative to average, but tons of data suggests that is not true, of if true, only weakly so.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I know that it does technically include the value of different hits, but thats the constant, so it doesn’t differentiate that between different players. The point is that you can have a pitcher who throws strikes and limits walks but doesn’t get velocity or movement on this pitches, and thus consistently gets hit harder than others.

by Gnick on Dec 15, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

What you are saying makes total sense. The problem is that its not clear if thats true. The simple fact, again, is that FIP correlates better with future ERA than past ERA.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 16, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I meant: FIP correlates better with future ERA than past ERA correlates with future ERA.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 16, 2009 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I once did a year-to-year comparison of the top ERA-FIPs in the league, and vice versa.

I found that out of every 5 pitchers, 4 regressed (or progressed) notably towards their luck-independent stats. This held true for the top 20 or so, after which point the differences between their ERAs and FIPs became fairly negligible. However, 2008 was a fairly unimpressive year luck wise. I think I’m going to keep track of the big names this coming season.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 16, 2009 1:36 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah true

WHIP is dumb, I was just being kinda lazy and it was easy to see.

His BB rates have been worse around 2008 and 2009, but not by much, and that’s including time his injury was getting worse and recovering from it, when he pitched below his standards.

If you take out his very-hittable 4 starts in May, his numbers for the year (except admittedly walk rate) look much better.

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Lackey's K rate

You are being a bit selective, I think.

John Lackey, BB/9 SO/9
2002 2.7 5.7
2003 2.9 6.7
2004 2.7 6.5
2005 3.1 8.6
2006 3.0 7.9
2007 2.1 7.2
2008 2.2 7.2
2009 2.4 7.1

Viewed that way, we see that 2005 was his career best year for Ks per 9 – but he also walked batters at the highest rate that year. ‘Not unreasonable to assume that his velocity has dropped a bit, but his control has improved since. Overall, his ’decline’ looks more asymptotic. He’s right at his career averages the last few years (2.6 BB/9 and 7.2 SO/9).

by mmmmm on Dec 15, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Injury

Lackey’s injury issue for 08-09 was actually one injury….not two incidents so not sure if one injury consitutes a trend. The reason I posted his second half stats for 09 was to include empirical evidence that he pitched well in the latest 1/2 season. I’m sure I can find numerous pitchers with a “down” season of innings and some very good seasons afterward.

If Lackey had more of a prior trend, had slight build or was in his late 30’s I would agree with your assessment.

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Found One!

Hey I found a pitcher who had some very good years…then in 04 pitched a mere 133 IP then backed that up with an 05 where he threw only 141.2 IP…..Guess the Blue Jays never gave up on that “trend”

To be fair Halladay was only 27/28 during that span

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

He has failed to throw 200 innings in each of the last two seasons. To be worth his contract, he has to throw at least 1,000 innings for the Sox over the next five years. 31-years old isn’t young for a pitcher. I’m not interested in what Lackey did prior to 2007. All that matters is what he does going forward.

Big pitchers break down too. Chris Carpenter is 6’ 6" 230 lbs. Freddy Garcia is 6’ 4" 240 lbs. Both those guys missed time due to injuries.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Carpenter

and you wouldn’t mind Carpenter pitching for the Sox would you…

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

You are aware that Carpenter only pitched 21.1 innings in 2007/2008?

At age 32 and 33, BTW. I wouldn’t want to pay him for those years.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep

Which means that the Cards most likely did not pay a huge chunk of his salary but some insurance company did

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

It depends

Either way, he did not hold up—and he is a big pitcher.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Not unless

there was a clause in his contract.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I've heard about this, but never anything substantial.

Any links to what extent MLB teams use insurance?

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

However

Regardless of whether or not insurance paid for Carpenter in 2007 and 2008, he gave his team nothing in terms of performance those two years.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

yup absolutely

and the team was counting on him. Imagine if suddenly Lester couldn’t pitch for 2 years.

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

likely

Which is actually more likely than Lackey not pitching for 2 years due to Lester’s major jump in innings

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I dont agree

Once another FA year comes and goes, then you can make this argument, but i think you will see other pitches getting similar deals at less production. Lackey is getting market value, he gets the AJ deal which is the standard for what #1A’s or #2s are asking. Their performance on the field means nothing after the team decides to sign them.

If the market puts a premium on quality top of the rotation starters and the current value is lets say 20% more than their production, well you either pay what the market is asking, you low ball him or you just dont sign him.

My point is when you take into consideration other aspects of this deal…the current market for #1 type arms, the teams interested and competition for his services you get the $$ amount you pay. Performance is secondary bc the teams are already interested in his ability. Now they must set a price.

"stats are for losers and final scores are for winners."
Bill Belichick

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes....

Thank you acumen, i have no idea why so many Sox fans OBSESS over the Sox payroll.

by Scoop1981 on Dec 15, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

And because it seems to be in direct contrast with previous philosophy...

…a philosophy that has secured us 2 world championships.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

by Bloggy on Dec 15, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

#3

From 06-09
Lackey Total WAR = 17.5, 4.4 AVG, AVG IP 195
Beckett Total WAR = 18.9, 4.7 AVG, AVG IP 198

Lackey of late has had a bit more injury problems…but Beckett used to be saddled with an injury rep due to blisters. Beckett is a better pitcher just not heads and tails better than Lackey

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Responding to Zupcic ...

2006 was an outlier for Beckett (his worst year as a pro). It was also one of Lackey’s best years. Let’s look at the last three years. After all, ‘07-’09 should be a better indicator of where each pitcher is right now.

2007-2009 (AVG):
Lackey – 187.2 IP – 7.15 K/9 – 2.22 BB/9 – 3.76 FIP
Beckett – 195.2 IP – 8.67 K/9 – 1.98 BB/9 – 3.26 FIP

In terms of WAR, Lackey was 5th best in the AL (2007), 29th (2008), and 10th (2009). Beckett was 2nd (2007), 8th (2007), and 7th (2009).

Beckett has been the better—and more consistent—pitcher. Based on their recent numbers, Beckett is significantly better.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

that's pretty weak situational logic

since you threw out Lackey’s best year and then started on Beckett’s best year.

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

however using 08 and 09

you could have made the same point, because of Lackey’s injury

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Fine

The point is Lackey is a 31-year old pitcher who has been trending downward the last three years. While it’s hard to predict the future, it’s fair to say what he did more recently is probably more relevant than what he did from 2002 to 2006.

But if you want the last two years, here they are:

Lackey – 169.2 IP – 7.13 K/9 – 2.31 BB/9 – 4.03 FIP
Beckett – 193.1 IP – 8.64 K/9 – 2.07 BB/9 – 3.49 FIP

BTW, 2007 was Lackey’s best year in the past three season. It’s also the last time he had a 200+ IP season.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

those two seasons he was out for the same injury and pitched poorly before leaving/when coming back because of the injury. We’re working on contract language to relieve the sox in case of the injury recurring. It’s not like he’s missed a lot of time because of frequent injuries- he’s not injury-prone. Just the one, really.

I don’t know why I’m defending him, I don’t like him and I don’t like that we got him (and definitely not how much we’re paying for him), I just don’t think he’s necessarily a bust and declining rapidly- he did look pretty great through the majority of 2009.

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I never said he was a bust

I said his numbers are trending downward. He is still a good pitcher. I just think there are risks to giving him a 5-year deal after the age of 31, and I don’t think he’s worth $17 million a year.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Trend?

Actually you could argue that he is trending back upward from 08 to 09 and just didn’t have enough time (full season un-injured) to make it back to form. 08 WAR = 2.0, 09 WAR = 3.9. 08 tRa = 5.32, 09 tRA = 4.47

I guess we are just proving that you can argue stats any way you see fit!

My guess is that he rounds back into 05-07 form which is pretty darn good since he has no reason to be trending downward (age, significant arm troubles, etc.)

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

But

Even your stats for 07-09 don’t show that he’s “significantly better”. What if 08 was an outlier for Lackey? Using 09 Beckett 7th and Lackey 10th even after starting with an injury?? Don’t see a major significance….both bottom of the top 10

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 8:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually

a difference of 1.50 K/9 and 0.50 FIP is a pretty big gap in performance.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Beckett is way better. I don’t see how you can argue that Lackey is equal, or even that close, for that matter.

by Gnick on Dec 15, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

$$$$

I think all that means is that Beckett will ask for more money than Lackey and you are back in the same boat again

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

or Beckett was already offered an extension and he turned it down...

which lead to the Lackey signing.

"stats are for losers and final scores are for winners."
Bill Belichick

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

"Since Beckett is the better and more durable pitcher" ???

Lackey and Beckett have virtually identical career won-lost records and ERA.

Yes, Lackey is a year older.

Who was healthier at the end of the season these last two years and pitched better in their respective playoff appearances these last two years?

I’m not saying Lackey is better, but I’m not sure Beckett is that much more durable.

by mmmmm on Dec 15, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

win-loss numbers? really?

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, they DO count for something in the aggregate.

Both guys have over 200 starts on similar quality teams.

by mmmmm on Dec 15, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Capitalizing “do” convinced me. I SHOULD look more at win-loss record. What’s the best place to find that stat?

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

There is literally no insight to be gained from looking at win-loss record that couldn’t be attained elsewhere in a more clear manner that is more indicative of actual performance.

by Gnick on Dec 15, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh gimme a break

I’m not going to argue won-lost doesn’t mask information that other stats reveal – but over multiple seasons it does have value. There is correlation between good starting pitching (however defined – pick your stat) and won-loss record, over a long career.

For a more detailed comparision of Beckett and Lackey, please go to:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp_pitch.cgi?I=beckejo02:Josh%20Beckett&st=career&compage=&age=

Where you see that Lackey has a similarity score of .971 to Beckett – and does indeed parallel him in many, many stats.

But Won-Lost and ERA (boooo! hisss!) and common sense told me that already.

by mmmmm on Dec 15, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 15, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I have absolutely no interest in debating the merits of W-L for a pitcher.

Other than to say you are wrong. I am right.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Please

of course W-L correlates with pitching ability. In a neutral setting a better pitcher will produce more wins than a poor one over a long series of data points. That completely misses the point. The obvious problem being that W-L is far from context neutral. It is like saying team RBIs correlate with wins. Don’t we know that scoring runs is good? I hate this attempt to claim “common sense” tells you W-L record is important. Common sense does not tell you that, it is merely part of the definition of baseball. Given that the idea is to predict the ability of a pitcher in a context neutral setting, W-L record is not really a useful thing to look at. That does not mean that people don’t value wins or that the results (bottom line) is not the important thing. It is also common sense that Grienke’s 16 wins were harder to earn on his crappy team than Sabathia’s 19- we all get it.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

the context in this case is roughly neutral

both have pitched for a long time on roughly similar playoff-quality teams.

I’m perfectly aware of the shortcomings of Won-Loss. I’m also aware that over time it eventuallly correlates with any measure of pitching success you want to pick.

Please don’t try to lecture your way around the point – Beckett and Lackey have produced similar overall career results. That is not to say that Beckett isn’t a better pitcher. He almost certainly is, but it is not as cut & dried as the post I was responding to implied. There is also serious question as to that posts claim that Beckett was/is more durable.

by mmmmm on Dec 16, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

There is NOTHING good about this, Ben Buchanan.

The fanboy in me hates it because I like love watching John Lackey crash and burn. I have been gearing my Red Sox cheering soul for the past three or four years towards the decimation of John Lackey. Perhaps the stats-focused around here can more easily shut that off, but your resident beer-swilling, profanity-prone Canadian who pretends he’s a potato cannot. It’s just this side of all of a sudden becoming an A-Rod fan.

The more rational side of me hates it because it wastes money on something that was much farther down on our list of needs. We NEED a left-fielder. We NEED a 3rd baseman. We NEED to compensate for the offensive production of our departing Mr. Bay. In one year, we will NEED a catcher. We have bloated our payroll and not addressed our concerns. Our “bridge year” has turned into Bizarro World Yankee-esque dumbass spending.

NOTHING. GOOD.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

by Bloggy on Dec 15, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Then the fanboy in you has been awfully disappointed.

Given the sub-2 ERA he’s had against us the last couple of years.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 15, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes. He has.

And it has made my hate grow.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

by Bloggy on Dec 15, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Your hate has made you strong...

GIVE IN TO THE DARK SIDE!

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Dec 15, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel...like wearing...pinstripes.....

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

by Bloggy on Dec 15, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Offensive Production

Which is better from a strictly offensive standpoint?
Bay – Vartiek – Nick Green (that was our starting LF-C-SS last season)
Cameron – Martinez – Scutaro (potential starting LF-C-SS this season)

Now factor in the defense

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

But we could have had Alex Gonzalez!!!!

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Really

and that would have helped our offense how?

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I, too, cannot get behind the deal too much.

I’ll enjoy the next couple of years. And, hell, even down the line, Lackey won’t be a bad 4 or 5. But I wonder what Theo was thinking when he made the move. It’s almost like he had this one opportunity to spend up to $170 million, and if he didn’t, they were going to take it away from him.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 15, 2009 1:02 PM EST reply actions  

What is the facination with the Sox $$?

HATE this deal?? Why? Lackey is a fine pitcher and provides the Sox with a solid top 2-3 starters for the next several years. Look, we are all FANS here, right? Keep it simple, does Lackey help the Sox get to the playoffs next season? Ahhhh, YEAH!

And why the obsession with money? You all know there is no salary cap in baseball, right? This move does not mean the Sox can’t sign Beckett, Papplebon or just about any other player out there. Remember, it was only a year ago they wanted to give Texiera $170 mil. or more. Gee….do you think they can AFFORD it? C’mon.

Sure, it would be great to have a 100% homegrown team filled with young, bright-eyed, hustling dirt dogs, and win a championship with a Cleveland payroll, but why wait for the fantasy? This is not 1969; the Sox have the ability to do it all – develop good young talent, sign them to deals to keep them, trade young talent to improve NOW, and sign a good free agent when possible, like Lackey. Just win baby!

by Scoop1981 on Dec 15, 2009 1:03 PM EST reply actions  

There is limited money. And this, in my opinion, means no Josh Beckett.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Stop it!

I threw up in my mouth again, dammit!

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 15, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I dont agree.

Beckett is going to get an extension offer, probably already has. If he takes it its up to Beckett and what he thinks he is worth.

"stats are for losers and final scores are for winners."
Bill Belichick

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

It's about money because the Red Sox FO has indicated that matters.

They say they’re going to spend smart, make wise investments, and focus on building from within. Then they dump millions on the best free agent starter and shortstop. I don’t think this deal, or the Scutaro signing, were particularly wise investments.

My issue is that Theo has expressed an overarching strategy, it works fairly well (2 WS, only one season out of the playoffs), and I don’t see how this deal fits into that strategy.

At some point, the Sox spending binge will curtail their future options. If Theo is certain that he’ll have an extra $30 million or so in payroll available each year for the next decade, that changes the calculations, but if they’re on a $130 – $140 million budget, the deal is really harmful to their budget.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Dec 15, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Dammit all, E. Coli.

Stop beating me to the punch by one minnute.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 15, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

The deal fits

because he didn’t have to give up prospects to get Lackey.

Plain and simple.

They clearly wanted one more front of the rotation starter because they KNOW that as much as they love Wakefield, he cannot be counted on to go the full season and while they have high hopes in Buch and Dice-K, they both have serious question marks based on last year.

So, they could try to pry any of Halladay, Hernandez (who I think they preferred overall) or Lee via trade – all of which would have cost prospects and two of whom would cost $$ for the long term. Hernandez wasn’t moving, and the Phillies still want to compete next year so the only option would be Halladay.

So its Halladay for prospects (almost certainly including Buchholz) and a ton of cash (for the contract extension necessary to get the no-trade clause waved) versus Lackey for a ton of cash.

That’s a no brainer – pay the cash. And as to how much cash? The rate was set by Burnett last year. There’s no getting around the comparables. This is pretty much a fair-market deal.

Yes, Halladay is better than Lackey. But Lackey isn’t bad. In fact, he’s overall very good and gives Francona 3 solid ’Ace’s to front the rotation. Lackey should be pretty good for at least the next two years. Will he be worth the cost of his contract in 4 years from now? Probably not – but I’ll bet that his salary won’t seem that obscene by then. And if we can reach a WS during that time, it will be worth it.

by mmmmm on Dec 15, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Doing what works and is possible

Agreed, the Lackey deal appears to be a fair market deal. There are really at least two FA markets – the market for players the Yankees want and rest. I guess the Yankees did not want Lackey, or another $80 mil. pitcher, so they stayed away. If the Yankess were involved, he could have commanded more money than Burnett.

Also, Lackey was there for the taking, and as you point out, only costs money not prospects AND money. After the Sox traded for Beckett/Lowell, John Henry was reported to have considered siging Burnett because it cost only money and not prospects. I’m glad they didn’ t go that route, because there would be no 2007 championship. The point is, the Lackey deal was there for the taking. Halladay, Lee, Adrian Gonzales, etc. are great players, but much more complicated and more costly ($$ AND prospects) to acquire.

by Scoop1981 on Dec 16, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

But evidence proves to the contrary

They just went on a spending spree to get Latin players, giving one player a 10 million deal. Offering Chapman 15 million. The Sox have eaten at least 5 contracts.

I am sure there is a limit but they haven’t reached it yet.

Nobody is saying Theo should not be a frugal GM, but in this particular case he couldn’t be. It was either sign Lackey for what he wants or let the him walk.

"stats are for losers and final scores are for winners."
Bill Belichick

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Because we recognize that no salary cap does not mean infinite payroll.

If the Sox have decided to permanently breach this barrier and play with the Yankees in the world of the 200 million dollar spenders, than OK. I’ll live with the shame and take the players.

But if not, then we’re going to feel the tightening of the belt in years to come. We’ll be at $140 million to start next offseason with potentially a ton of holes. And we’re damn sure not gonna be signing any true impact guy like Mauer.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 15, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

The "SHAME"

What shame?? The real shame would be to have a crappy team no matter what the payroll.

by Scoop1981 on Dec 15, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I fail to see

how next year’s team would be crappy even if we spent more wisely.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Get over it

Sure, it would be nice to see what teams would win if every team had a cap, but that is in fact, in REALITY, NOT the case here. Sure the Sox could be OK if they chose to spend less, but WHY do WE WANT them to do that?

You all want a good team with a limited payroll, fine, visit the Twins site.
But HERE, in the AL East, in 2010, the Sox have a better team today, with Lackey, then they had yestereday, and that is all I care about. You can all focus on the mythological players the Sox supposedly cannot sign somewhere down the road, and I’ll follow the wins and losses.

by Scoop1981 on Dec 15, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

That's fine

but then if we didn’t sign the Lugos and the Lowells we would have 20 million more to throw at the Holliday’s of the world. That’s how it works, and in 2-3 years Lackey is going to be Lugo…

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

OK, but what if you were given about $25 million to spend

Would you put it into Lackey, and Cameron instead of Holliday and Figgins.

I’d prefer the latter, personally.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 15, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Completely depends on what you as a GM believe are your priorities

Obviously, Theo thought adding an arm was a top priority. Theo also wants very little to do with Boras and Holliday had a pretty unspectacular AL run in Oakland. So no I would rather have the veteran and proven Lackey + Cameron v. Holliday who is mostly Boras hype and Figgins who I agree is a solid player.

But that is just my opinion.

"stats are for losers and final scores are for winners."
Bill Belichick

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Pitching for me

Sure, we all want everyday players more, but pitching rules and nothing is more scarce than good pitching, espically top of the rotation starters. You can’t realistically design a team around a mediocre starting pitching staff and expect to win. On the other hand, it IS possible to win with a lineup that may not be loaded with 40+ homer guys; you could emphasize OBP, speed, working pitchers, defense, etc. On the other hand, if 3 of your starters stink, you’re done.

Sure, the Sox starting is good even without Lackey, but why not improve a critical area?

by Scoop1981 on Dec 16, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Like, if this were a Disney movie

The villain would have just struck a crushing blow to our hopes, and now be offering everyone on our side a chance to join him in return for great power or wealth. And we’d be the ones ducking our head and mumbling apologies as we went over to his side while he laughed diabolically.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 15, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

(crushes puppy)

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Dec 15, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

(Alex Rodriguez sees crushed puppy on floor.)

“You gonna eat that?”

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Dec 15, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Im sure the shame will be washed away by the glory of winning another WS.

"stats are for losers and final scores are for winners."
Bill Belichick

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Basically the same way I look at it.

Nothing was lost: Prospects were kept, Beckett will still get an extension offer. They probably never really wanted to resign Bay or sign Holliday. Money will still be there for Mauer, Pujol, or Felix if they become available.

Lackey signing will have little effect on what Boston does in the future, unless he gets injured. Then ill concede the detractors point.

"stats are for losers and final scores are for winners."
Bill Belichick

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Beckett

You sure they’ll try to extend Beckett? That’d be a boatload of money tied up in the rotation for many years.

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Im sure they already have tried

maybe this is why Lackey is now a Red Sox.

"stats are for losers and final scores are for winners."
Bill Belichick

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a good point

I’m in the mind that they’ll either still try to extend Beckett, or they have and he turned it down..

by brogshan on Dec 15, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I may hate this deal...

… but I am enjoying reading Halos Heaven. I had forgotten how much I had become accustomed to the end of year emotional tear-stained apparently menses-related meltdown. A little bit late this year, but so welcome…

Not worth $ 85MM, but still nice.

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 15, 2009 1:24 PM EST reply actions  

only half of our fan base was crippled

the other half of us know better, its just business. You guys got a good pitcher though, I wish he was still an Angel and I wish him luck. But I kind of agree with what you guys are saying as far as this was more of a defensive move by Boston so that the Yankees and Angels wouldn’t be able to sign him, and I have to give credit for that. well played

2009 was good. Now on to 2010 - Let's go Halos!

by ryanb517 on Dec 15, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

He was the best available FA arm

with all 3 teams looking for another pitcher. Boston may have overpaid but I dont think its that much in comparison to other deals.

"stats are for losers and final scores are for winners."
Bill Belichick

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

His contract sucks and will continue to rot

As many of us at HH have stated, this deal will only get worse with time. Lackey never was a true number one and that will only become more apparent as his stat line continues its ascent. As mentioned above, all of peripherals have either flat lined, or they’ve started heading north.
 Lucky for you guys the only information you consider is quantitative, because if you started looking at things like personality and likability, this signing would look a lot worse.

Enjoy Mr. Ed.

You are what you type.

by rjcicc on Dec 16, 2009 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

If in your mind the status quo is unacceptable,

then any change could be good or bad, but at least it is a change. If it turns out good, then the Sox may actually beat the Mariners and those other guys and make it all the way!

by NG on Dec 15, 2009 1:34 PM EST reply actions  

You mean

the “status quo” of being the most successful team in baseball from 2003-now?

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately...

A view shared by many lawyers…

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 15, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahem.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 15, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm guessing you aren't

a proud member of the Los Angeles County Bar. I suppose I should have narrowed the scope of my comment a bit…

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 15, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you insulting proud L.A. lawyer Phillip Banks? Because if you are…

by Gnick on Dec 15, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I insult the L.A. County Bar every day...

My colleagues are not the brightest or most honest people…

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 16, 2009 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

What's with your Mariners obsession, NG?

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Empirically speaking, the Mariners are the barometer

by which the caliber of Red Sox talent in any year is measured! Win the majority of games against the Mariners, and that year’s team could go all the way. Lose, and you will be lucky to make the palyoffs or get beyond round 1.

Also, I can get affordable tickets to see the Sox- Mariiners games in Seatlle ,and thus see the SoX in person for myself!

by NG on Dec 15, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, the presence of a groundhog's shadow.

And I believe there’s something about finger bones.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Dec 15, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm ... I'll have to look into that

One thing I do know: The Sox were 4-5 against the Mariners in 2007.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

It was cloose that year, and besides

barometers are only rough guides. It is not exact science, but close enough from my view.

by NG on Dec 15, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Barometers

You know I’ve always wondered why the Barometer gets a bad rap. I mean it is a scientific instrument and depending on how its build and calibrated can be as accurate about atmospheric pressure as any other device…….

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah.

I’ve found the barometer to be quite accurate.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Can you guess the one I voted for??

“Sign John Lackey, keep Buchholz, move Wake to the pen.”

However, that is a bit of a stretch because I really would rather send Wakefield to lifecare outside of Fenway!

by NG on Dec 15, 2009 1:47 PM EST reply actions  

because of his poor performance last year?

Do you know what our first half would have looked like without him last year? Ouch.

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't...don't bother, man.

Like talkin’ to a brick wall.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

by Bloggy on Dec 15, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Having Wakefield pitch is like flying with one old pilot in the cockpit with severe heart disease.

You never know when the big explosion is coming for sure, but it is likely to happen soon. That is the reliablity of a pitcher this old, and it will be only worse and less predictble next year when he is what, 44?

by NG on Dec 15, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

RE: Option 3

Wouldn’t it be Yankees North?

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Dec 15, 2009 1:57 PM EST reply actions  

I thought so, too, yes.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

by Bloggy on Dec 15, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Seems so.

Now I will have to hild my Fing tongue…I hate that.

by Buzzy on Dec 15, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess it should be “Yankees Northeast”

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

North of NYC is Albany and Canada

Northeast is Western Massachusetts. Boston is more like East-Northeast.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Dec 15, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Big props on the Dr. Strangelove reference, by the way.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

by Bloggy on Dec 15, 2009 2:10 PM EST reply actions  

Angels fan here

Just thought I’d give my perspective about his injuries. At no point were his injuries really considered anything all that serious. Everyone knew it was only a matter of time before he came back and was his normal self. So yes he was injured the pas two years but if I was in your place I’d be a lot more worried about it if anyone thought he was another curve away from TJ surgery.

by MH252525 on Dec 15, 2009 2:51 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah I don't think anyone sees anything serious

or they wouldn’t have signed him. Concerns are more of that people tend to get more fragile as they age, and the last two years don’t look great. Personally, injury doesn’t concern me a ton because both years he was injured at the beginning of the end, so it’s not an issue of him wearing down, just looks like two isolated incidents.

Anytime someone signs for a longterm contract there will be people worrying about injury.

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Doctors

and team doctors more inclined to medical diagnosis than board posters

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

but that doesn't stop board posters from worrying

it’s just people hypothesizing based on what they’ve seen, not diagnosing.

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

True

I’m just always looking rosy…must be the Holidays

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

by the way

Buchholz + Beltre this year will not be remotely close to $20 mill. Buchholz is making minimum and not arb eligible until 2011 and if Figgins signed for $9 mill a year, Beltre’s gonna have a very tough time beating that.

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 3:13 PM EST reply actions  

That is exactly what I mean.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Dec 15, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Two more years before arbitration for Buch. I read this summer, searching for link…

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I think its outdated.

He didn’t play enough this year to earn that. Soxprospects has him eligible in 2012.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

yup 1 year 61 days there

unless he’s a super-two, which is probably pretty unlikely. Excellent.

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

75ish days short. I wonder why we kept in Pawtucket so long last year…

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 15, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Like the deal short term, hate it long term

I hate the long term of the deal, but in the short term it is what we needed. We won’t be able to put up big run totals this year (especially with Bay more then likely gone) so the only way to keep up with teams like the Yanks is to shut them down. 2010 the Sox have the best rotation in baseball, and a solid bullpen. We can survive with Cameron in Left, that leaves just a hole first. I heard on EEI today Toronto was thinking about trading Overbay. He would be a serviceable first baseman and could probably come cheap without handing toronto any of our top prospects, it was also said Toronto would be willing to eat some of his salary. Another option would be to sign Russell Branyan to a one-year low salary deal. The Branyan deal has more of a potential to be hit or miss. But if the Sox could sign him cheap and he had another 30+ HR season and hit around .260ish it would be a good band-aid move until a better Free Agent class next season. This way we wouldn’t have to trade Buchholz and we could move Wake to the bullpen for long relief/ have a solid player to come into the rotation if any of the starting 5 go down. Either way the team would have a great rotation and solid lineup and bullpen

Rotation

Lester
Beckett
Lackey
Matsuzaka
Buchholz
   *Wake

Pen

Pap
Bard
Bowden
Oki
Ramirez
Ramirez
Delcarmen
Bonser
   *Wake

Lineup

Ellsbury
Pedroia
Youk
Martinez
Drew
Ortiz
Branyan/Overbay
Cameron
Scutaro

I’ll take that lineup with the Sox pitching, and say they could do some damage

by Dangles-McDonnybrook on Dec 15, 2009 4:29 PM EST reply actions  

Dice-K is on the block now

in my opinion. He’s gonna be traded.
Theo has to have more moves left.

by Snowball on Dec 15, 2009 6:27 PM EST reply actions  

doubtful

I dont’ see it happening.

by mmmmm on Dec 15, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

no no no

not at all. He underperformed last year, really is quite cheap for what he is, oh, and has a no trade clause.

Plus then Japan would have the Sox. Bad PR.

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I doubt Dice-K will be moved since his pressence makes the Red Sox $$$$

"stats are for losers and final scores are for winners."
Bill Belichick

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Merchandise revenues are shared equally by all teams.

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 16, 2009 1:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Hrr?

Do you mean that if a million Red Sox hats and a million Cubs hats get sold, it gets divvied up so that the Royals get as much of the cut as the Sox and Cubs?

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

by Bloggy on Dec 16, 2009 6:59 AM EST up reply actions  

yup

that’s the odd way it works.

by wolf9309 on Dec 16, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Huh.

I had no idea. I’m not sure how I feel about that.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

by Bloggy on Dec 16, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

but non-national contract broadcast revenues arent

The Sox make money when the team is on the road and broadcasting into the NESN market. (Unfortunately, the Yankees make even more doing the same thing ….)

Q: Do they have to share revenues for sox broadcasts funneled to Japan? The Sox and the Mariners are both very popular there.

by mmmmm on Dec 16, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Doubtful

We’d get pennies on the dollar for Dice-K after this last year. It would make no sense to trade him now.

by brogshan on Dec 15, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

it's ok

I think on this site, when anyone says “we” it means the red sox.

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Stats are killing baseball

Miguel Cabrera IS the solution to our problems.
Release Jason Varitek before ST is over !
Do not pay Jason Bay !!
Trade Buchholz !!!

by gizmosandy on Dec 15, 2009 8:04 PM EST reply actions  

nah

they’re giving us something to argue about in the offseason!

by wolf9309 on Dec 15, 2009 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

More than that

Baseball players have always been evaluated based on their stats. Unfortunately, most of the more traditional measures of a player (e.g. RBI for hitters or wins for pitchers) tell us little about how good a player is. That’s why most baseball front offices don’t use them to evaluate players.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 15, 2009 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes but these create an unlimited arguement

stats for everything.

Miguel Cabrera IS the solution to our problems.
Release Jason Varitek before ST is over !
Do not pay Jason Bay !!
Trade Buchholz !!!

by gizmosandy on Dec 15, 2009 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Its not as if stats are new...

"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw

by BTLove on Dec 16, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions  

right

in that past we’d just be arguing about whether a players good fielding percentage made up for his poor batting average.

by wolf9309 on Dec 16, 2009 9:52 AM EST up reply actions  

NO SHIT-IT WAS SARCASM

Miguel Cabrera IS the solution to our problems.
Release Jason Varitek before ST is over !
Do not pay Jason Bay !!
Trade Buchholz !!!

by gizmosandy on Dec 16, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Burnett & Lackey

Well at the very least Sox fans and Yankees fans can commiserate together over their large contract “middle-tier” starters for the few years

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 8:31 PM EST reply actions  

Lackey and Burnett are middle - tier?

They both would be #1s on any one of 20 or so teams.

"stats are for losers and final scores are for winners."
Bill Belichick

by SoxAcumen on Dec 15, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

poke

That was a poke at some of the discussions going on during this thread..hence the quotes – tongue in cheek ya know?

by BobZupcic on Dec 15, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

As a yankees fan i hate the burnett deal

I also dislike the lackey deal. Both guys are gonna be earning too much after their prime.

by lololol on Dec 15, 2009 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

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