Thumb Surgery Might Put Mike Lowell Trade in Jeopardy
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 14, 2009 10:12 AM EST
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PrintIt's been a few days since news broke of a deal between the Red Sox and Rangers for Mike Lowell. Over those days, the likelihood of said deal ever being completed has gradually diminished as the teams tried to sort out the medical issues plaguing the players involved.
Originally, for Lowell, it seemed like the third baseman's hip was going to be the issue, but instead it has been his right thumb which has been problematic. Today, Peter Gammons reported on Twitter that the thumb might require surgery, which would spell an end to the deal.
For the Red Sox, this would bring up a whole new set of questions. Will Lowell be ready for the start of the season? Should they look for a full-time replacement anyways? Adrian Beltre had been the presumed replacement for Lowell, but with Boras' current asking price high, and the potential for a logjam at third, the Red Sox would likely have to pass on any big-name players.
Sox fans might have to get ready for a few months of Kotchman-Youkilis manning the corners.
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Where the @#$% did this thumb thing come from anyhow?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
This would probably explain why the Beltre deal hasn't happened yet.
Once/If they move Lowell, then getting Beltre is a no-brainer.
But I can understand hesitating if they can’t move him.
Only if Beltre is cheaper than Boras claims.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 14, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Certainly
But they’d have to wait for Boras to cave in to the pressure of no interest at that price.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 14, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
Can you guys give me one example of a Boras player
other than Tek (who should not even be playing baseball anymore) that signed for a lot less than asked for?
Strasburg
doesn’t count as he never played an inning of pro ball-no leverage at all. Arod made a ton anyway. The bigger the player the more unrealistic the demand. I still don’t think there is a plyer out there with any value that has played at all that does not get way more than they should if they have Boras as an agent. Even in the stinky economy Manny got his money and justified opting out.
read my original post
either way, Tek has always gotten way more than he is/was worth.
Strasburg doesn't count?
BS. He had tons of leverage. The Nationals couldn’t afford not to sign him, but they played tough and Boras caved on 15 million.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 14, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Totally different
either the Nats sign him or he reenters the draft. It is not like other teams could bid for him.
Boras has sent clients back to college or to independent leagues before.
See: Teixeira, Mark
Drew, J.D.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 14, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
Whether Manny's money "justified" him opting out is highly debatable.
His increase in money was a “mere” 5 million, and then you have to factor in Boras’s cut of it.
And he had started out asking for 4-5 years and $100MM, if I remember correctly. Something outrageous like that. He ended up getting 2 years and barely more than he would have gotten if he hadda just done nuthin.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
Dice-K
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by Randy Booth on Dec 14, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Oh come on
It’s $3m and a nothing prospect Texas, just get the damn deal done. Cheap bastards.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
With Salty's shoulder injury
They might need Max.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 14, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
I don't see him as a nothing prospect
I see him as actually pretty valuable- absolutely raked until he got injured. Probably not a big keeper for the sox, but could become a pretty valuable trade chip.
Really, I think if they want to get Beltre
Not getting the $3 mill from the Rangers isn’t going to kill the deal. If he ends up needing surgery and misses the first few months, then we have his roster spot cleared up in any case for while he’s injured and it’s not a huge deal. When he gets off the DL, we could probably just as easily find someone willing to take him for almost nothing, but really, the $3 million isn’t going to stop the FO from doing what will best improve the team.
I think if they did plan to get Beltre, the reason they haven’t yet is Boras doesn’t like his clients signing early and is trying to wheedle a few extra dollars out.
Basically, when you say you’ll pay $9 million for someone else to take the player, the message is that you are going to do something else to fill his position no matter what.
+1
This is what I’ve been saying, too. For the sake of 3mil, get Beltre and DFA Lowell if you have to. Not ideal, of course, as Lowell doesn’t deserve a DFAin’ for what he’s given to the organization, but still.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
The Sox have not been the type of organization willing to make the "mean" move in a while.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 14, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
True, perhaps
But they also haven’t been an organization to let opportunities go by. I’d rather have Theo pull the trigger on Beltre and then see how it plays out. If we have to have Lowell on the bench/platoon somewhere, I am more than okay with that.
I’d have no problem with Lowell doing rotating starts at DH/1B/3B throughout the year.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
Bronson Arroyo says hello.
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
I don't think it is the $$ but instead the roster spot
The Sox could easily DFA him, but don’t want to due to the public and clubhouse back lash. They ar already willing to eat 9< pf his deal, 3M more would not be that huge of a difference. The 3M and the prospect are really not the problem. It is the fact that there is going to be even less interest in him now if he has a thumb injury.
I thikn this pretty much kills this deal. I wonder what the insurance parameters are on this
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
Why not put him on the DL, then.
Put him on the DL, let him have his surgery, see if you can move him after that. We don’t need a 3rd baseman with a broken thumb any more than they do.
Do we know when this surgery would take place? What’s the rehab time? Are we talking about something that would make him available by Spring Training?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
Can't go onto DL until ST is completed
what do you do on the 40 man till then? Eat his roster spot?
JD’s like, "you want some fucking pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, bitches!"- RCCook
Lowell is like
an in-law that comes to stay with you indefinitely. You pray and pray for the day when you only have to see that person a few times a year, but they keep hanging on. Suddenly something comes up and they say they’ll be heading out in a few days, but at the last minute they decide to stick around. Continually ruining your homelife.
Just get lost Mike, you never should’ve been here after ’07, and I truly never want to see you again.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
I've never liked Lowell
Not since the Hanley trade, certainly not during the ’07 offseason, and not when Mark Kotsay was sinking the ALCS.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
What?
first off, liking him or not is beside the point. This is a guy that would play shot if he could. He was a great clubhouse guy, loved by his teammates, played hurt, and given the fact that he was a throw in to the Hanley deal, played pretty damn well. He was 5th in the MVP voting in 07 and gave the Sox 3.4, 5.3 and 3.2 WAR from 06-08. I also don’t understand the point about the offseason. He took a discount and turned down the Phillies offer of more money/years to resign. I hate when fans do this shit. You can’t blame Lowell for any injuries he may have had. The guy gave his all and played pretty damn well for 3/4 years he has been with the team. You want to throw your anger out, direct it at dickhead complaining players or the management that traded for him or resigned him. It is fans like you that make players not wan’t to take home town discounts. Fans talk about player loyalty, but it is fan comments like this that make it clear that fans can be a lot less loyal than the players they bitch about.
He shouldn't have taken the hometown discount
Then we wouldn’t have had to deal with him. He had a good season in ‘07, was mediocre in ’06, ’08 and ’09 when he wasn’t injured. It was an idiotic decision to resign him after ‘07 that seemingly nobody but myself opposed, because this exact thing was going to happen. He was too old, too fragile, too ready to collapse in the second half of every season but ’07. Lo and behold, he’s been injured and a drain on this team since before the ink was dry.
I want him gone, gone, gone.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Let's see
mediocre Lowell in 06=3.4 WAR. Bletre since moving to the AL:3.2/year. Wait till you replace the broaken down Lowell with the oft-injured, probably 34 year old windmill that is Beltre for 10 million a year. I am sure you will love him.
Plus I still don’t see how his resigning in 07 make you angry at him.
I think Sean would only be happy
If the Sox had David Wright / Alex Rodriguez at third, Hanley Ramirez at SS, Utley at 2B, and Teixeira at 1B (OF: Holliday, Beltran, Ichiro, C: Joe Mauer).
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
you are going to have to
change the signature soon ;).
We'll see.
The Sox are also going to have to win some playoff series, or at least give me something quotable.
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
Prior to his injury, there was nothing wrong with Lowell
(1) It’s not his fault he and Beckett were traded for Hanley Ramirez (a trade, incidentally, Theo wouldn’t have made).
(2) Lowell took a below market value trade to stay in Boston. Philly offered more money and years. It’s hard to hate a guy for being loyal to his team.
(3) Injuries happened. Lowell isn’t responsible for Kotsay’s play.
(4) Prior to last year, when he could hardly move due to injury, Mike Lowell more than earned his money:
2006 – Lowell was a 3.4 WAR player and earned $9 million
2007 – Lowell was a 5.3 WAR player and earned $9 million
2008 – Lowell was a 3.2 WAR player and earned $12.5 million
Only last year did Lowell not give the Sox value for his contract. Since 2006, the Sox have paid Lowell $43 million. Fangraphs estimates his value to the Sox at $54.4 million.
Lowell has been a classy player, a great clubhouse presence, and a guy who played through pain. If you couple that with the fact that he has more than earned his money in Boston, I find him very hard to hate.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 14, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
This Theo wouldn't make the Beckett trade
is ridiculous to me.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
It's a fact
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 14, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
So Ben and Jed
came up with this plan completely out of the blue, just waiting for their boss to run off in a gorilla suit.
If Theo didn’t want that deal I’d love him for it, I just don’t believe it.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Lucchino made the deal
With input from the Theo-less FO.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 14, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
With LITTLE input from Jed/Ben
Larry was getting hammered in the media so he wanted to take some pressure off of himself. Poof! Big trade.
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by Randy Booth on Dec 14, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty much the context.
Theo had nothing to do with the Beckett trade.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 14, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think that's true.
IIRC, Jed Hoyer and Ben Cherington were consulting with Theo at the time of the Lowell trade. Theo may have given some input on the deal, or he may have been advising against it.
I believe Mnookin’s Feeding the Monster discusses the trade in some detail.
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
The trade worked out well for the Sox
I enjoyed the 2007 championship.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 14, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
Trade was very even.
Sox got immediate results in exchange for long term production. Exactly what both teams want from a prospect-MLB player trade.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 14, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Also
Fangraphs valuation is the biggest joke in stats.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
It gives a baseline for comparison purposes
The numbers are probably inflated. But no matter how you look at it, Lowell earned his money in Boston.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 14, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
Not when
He was crippled when we needed him in October. I want him gone.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
I want you gone
but, unfortunately like Lowell, that probably ain’t gonna happen.
Players get hurt
It’s not like Lowell was out drinking the night before a big game and got injured doing something stupid.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 14, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
He's been hurt
the entire time. I’m saying that signing a player with his circumstances to the deal we did in ‘07-’08 was stupid, because this was going to happen. Even if he’s not injured, he’d always crapped out in the 2nd half, like in ’06. ’07 he/we got lucky.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
And yet you want the team
to sign another aging, often injured, one-balled 3b. I see…
One who's not going to make $12m a year
until he’s 35.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Buzzy has a point, Sean
We really don’t know how old Beltre is.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 14, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
If we give Beltre
$12m a year, then I will not be happy. If we had Lowell for 7-8m a year i wouldn’t have really minded, but he’s not good enough for that stupid contract.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
I don't like
mediocre, overpaid ballplayers. I don’t like Lowell, didn’t like Lugo, and I would be shocked out of my skull if Scutaro provides any value whatsoever. At least Beltre has tremendous defense and the potential to rake at Fenway vs. Safeco.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Er
there is a difference between “don’t like” and “don’t like having” or at least there should be. I don’t want Lowell to be the Sox 3b next year too, but I have always liked the guy for his efforts.
Exactly
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 14, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think the effort is there
And I’m really wondering how he had a major thumb injury that apparently requires surgery without noticing. hmmm.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
were you out of the country
when the playoffs took place? It is the same thumb injury he had that made him miss the last 2 games of the season. Here is the quote from October 8:
News: Lowell said his sore thumb has improved and is ready to go for the opening of the American League Division Series against the Angels on Thursday, the Boston Globe reports.
So, he had a major thumb injury, but called it “sore.” Yeah-the effort was just not there. Oh boy.
We don't know what's been going on.
Maybe he was avoiding surgery so that the team could deal him. The team knew he had a thumb injury, neither he nor the team necessarily knew it needed surgery.
What are you even accusing him of? Trying to purposefully sabotage the deal?
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 14, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
I have no faith in his abilities
and wouldn’t be surprised if he plays out the string. He hasn’t done a thing for us since ’07, so why should he start now?
It’s hard keeping track of all of his injuries.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
So let's hate him.
I hope you don’t have kids…
OK, good for you.
Now explain this statement like everyone is asking you to:
And I’m really wondering how he had a major thumb injury that apparently requires surgery without noticing. hmmm.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 14, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
He played 153 games in 2006 and 154 games in 2007. He got hurt in 2008.
If you’re going to look at first half/second half splits, we should probably dump Youkilis too.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 14, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Difference is
Youk is still valuable, and not making a crazy amount of money.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Youk will make
$9.125 million next year, and then $12 million for each of the next two years. There’s an option for $13 million ($1 million buyout). Youk is 31-years old next year, and spent more time on the DL than JD Drew in 2009.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 14, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Compare lines
2009 Youkilis: .305/.413/.548/.961
2009 Lowell: .290/.337/.474/.811
Lowell has come within .100 OPS points of Youk once in his Boston tenure. OBP not even close.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Nobody is arguing that Lowell is better than Youk
BTW, Youk is a career .832 OPS hitter in the second half (.913 OPS first half)
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 14, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
That's the problem he fixed
Which made him the MVP-type guy he is today.
.933 OPS post all-star in 2008
.998 OPS post all-star in 2009
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 14, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
No
Youk was .985 first half/.933 second half last year.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 14, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Switched the years by accident.
.998 in 2008
.933 in 2009
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 14, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Sure
:-)
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 14, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Interestingly enough
.933/.998 2008
.985/.933 2009
Weird with the .933
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 14, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
I like Lowell
But if the Rangers don’t even want him for $3MM and a mid-level prospect, I don’t want him either. I guess he gets put on the DL for a while and we go Youk-Kotch. Woo.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 14, 2009 11:51 AM EST reply actions
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