Rosenthal: No Jason Bay? Matt Holliday or Mike Cameron Instead
by Randy Booth on Dec 12, 2009 7:14 PM EST
in News
176 comments
Ken Rosenthal of FoxSports writes that if the Red Sox are out on Jason Bay, they'll turn their focus to either Matt Holliday or Mike Cameron. His sources conflict a tad there:
Some rival executives insist free agent Matt Holliday is the Sox's preferred target. Other sources, however, say the Red Sox will shun Holliday in favor of building a more athletic, defensive-oriented club.
Adrian Beltre at third base. Mike Cameron in left field. And perhaps a starting pitcher to further enhance the Red Sox's quest for better run prevention.
[...]
Beltre would appear the logical replacement at third for Mike Lowell, whose trade to the Rangers could become official next week. Cameron, who turns 37 on Jan. 8, would sign a short-term deal, leaving the Red Sox flexible enough to pursue a left fielder in next year's free-agent class, Carl Crawford or even Jayson Werth.
Neither Beltre nor Cameron is Holliday — or, for that matter, Bay. Still, both hit for power, and their overall value to the Red Sox might be greater than Holliday's if one combines their offense, defense and base-running — along with their respective price tags.
Cameron works -- a whole lot better than Matt Holliday, in my opinion.
Cameron would be a perfect player for this "bridge" that Theo Epstein is building and escorting every Red Sox fan over. He's going to be 37 next season, which means the Sox wouldn't give him a contract for any more than two years. If a Ryan Kalish or a Josh Reddick (or even a Ryan Westmoreland if he quickly jumps up the system) is ready by then, it's a perfect transition. Or if Theo tries to sign Carl Crawford next season, it'll still be a good one-year stopgap.
Cameron is a great defender who shouldn't have too many troubles in left field. He also brings a power bat to the Sox's lineup; he's good for at least 25 home runs in Friendly Fenway full time.
The Sox could move Jacoby Ellsbury to left field and play Cameron in center field, but I'm not sure Terry Francona will want to do that to Ellsbury. Perhaps if Ellsbury's defense really is a problem midseason they would make a switch, but I'm not 100 percent sure Ellsbury would be moved if Cameron is signed.
If Bay is out, this is what I want as a Sox fan. Cameron, Ellsbury and J.D. Drew in the outfield would be fantastic (Cameron in center a little better than Ells, but still good). Offensively, Cameron won't hit 36 home runs like Bay, but he's not going to struggle either. Jeremy Hermida will be a solid corner outfield backup as well.
Sign Cameron. Trade Mike Lowell (officially). Sign Adrian Beltre. This is what I want if Bay really is no longer coming back.
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Dear Mr. Bay,
Regarding your communication from Saturday, 12.12.09 about being “ready to move on from the Red Sox” (http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=47373630). Please don’t be troubled on our count, as the feeling is more than mutual. While we have enjoyed seeing you bat from August to October 2008, and April-Mid May followed by July-September, we’ve decided to see other people.
Hope you enjoy slugging .405 at CitiField!
Love,
Red Sox Nation
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by Sean O on Dec 12, 2009 7:31 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think Bay will hit well for the Mets
Bay’s numbers weren’t inflated by Fenway. Bay hit 21 of 36 HR on the road. He slugged .531 at Fenway and .542 in away games. The problem with Bay isn’t his bat, it’s his glove.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 12, 2009 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
How long have you been out on Holliday, Randy?
I don’t remember seeing stuff like that from you before.
I think we really need that legit bat in our lineup if we’re gonna do things like sign Adrian Beltre. Sure, we scored a ton of runs last year, but add in Mike Cameron and you’re really relying on Martinez (spending a ton of games at catcher) and Drew to do a lot for this team offensively.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 7:43 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Because naturally
his 2009 is the end of his career. Right ,2004 Mike Lowell?
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2005, even
Or, for that matter, 2006 Mark Buehrle.
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I'd love to see Beltre have a career resurgence.
But it’s a pretty big gamble to commit tens of millions on the hope that he can turn his career around.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
His defense didn't suffer
And thus he’ll be worth anything under what Figgins received. The fact that he’s a dead pull hitter means he’ll at least be helped by Fenway. There’s nothing in his history to show he’ll suddenly crap out completely, especially at 31.
Any more than Figgins then I’m with you, but up to that, it’s a great bet.
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History
In eleven major league seasons, he’s had an OBP worse than .310 five times. That’s pretty bad.
I also have reservations about his age. If I recall correctly, he signed at “14.”
Manny ain't the only bad man.
Mike Lowell
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the GIDP king was a huge rally killer
Frankly, Tommy, Beltre’s career .327 OBP is terrible. He needs to learn to take a walk- but the red sox are the right lineup to learn to do that in. Hopefully being around so many patient batters will inspire him. If not, it’s not crippling.
You can’t look at the .304 because he was injured. He hit horribly and the fact is, injured players tend to walk less- blame frustration or whatever, that’s what I’ve seen. It was his lowest career walk rate in a terrible year at bat.
To be honest, I anticipate his bat being a dropoff from Lowell’s, particularly in taking walks (though Lowell was pretty awful at that last year), but not a significant one. And he should save enough runs that he should way more than make up for it. I don’t think a move like Beltre is anything but positive for the club.
so that was unclear
because I responded to Randy but it was really generally more to tommy and Ben. Oooops.
When healthy
Beltre puts up similar BB% numbers as Lowell. So it’s a wash there. While Lowell’s offense should decline with age, Beltre should (hopefully) hit better in Fenway.
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Yup, Lowell hit into 24 DPs last year
But Beltre hit into 19.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 12, 2009 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
yeah that's true
not that he’s not going to stop rallies, but that he’s not really a downgrade from lowell in that regard
SInce 2005
.303
.328
.319
.327
.304
That is ugly. His career OBP is .325. Take out his juicy 2004 numbers and he’s probably closer to .318.
And I think it’s pretty rare for a guy to become significantly more patient at this point in his career. Figgins would seem to be an exception.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
yeah it is rare
but I can see that Seattle’s not exactly the place that will inspire you to do that- team average .314 OBP in 2009, .318 in 2008. A lineup of patient hitters could well help guide him.
2008 Away numbers:
.292/.349/.512/.862
2007: .288/.320/.538/.858
2006: .283/.343/.462/.805
If we assume that Beltre as a dead pull hitter will not miraculously be improved over his away numbers but simply maintain, and if we assume he won’t magically lose his defensive ability, he will be worth infinitely more than the 8-9m we’re likely to pay him a season.
We are never going to sign or trade for a major player like Gonzalez, it’s not how we work. Theo works by trying to get players with at least some major abnormality at every position instead of spending on excellence. All things considered, Beltre is a far, far better choice for 8/9 per than Lowell’s corpse was or Lugo/Renteria/No-upside Scutaro for 6m.
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you really should stop hating on scutaro
he’s gonna be perfectly decent for us. his advanced stats last year are pretty eye opening. basically he’s first or around first in the AL in several things, like contact and patience.
exactly
he’s not gonna go up flailing when everyone else on the team is seeing five pitches.
Are you sure he can hit in the AL?
He sure couldn’t with Oakland, outside of 80 good July ABs.
If he were a 12-15m a year guy for 3-4 years I’d be all for it, but for 20 over at least 6, we need a guarantee that he can produce at .950+.
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There is no NL/AL divide on hitting
Pitching in the AL is harder because line-ups are deeper due to the DH. Holliday is a very good hitter. He is a MUCH better hitter than Beltre.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 12, 2009 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
No he didn't
Holliday had a .368 wOBA in an awful line-up, hitting in a pitcher’s park. Reimold had a .365 wOBA in a decent line-up, hitting in a favorable park for hitters. By the way, both hit better than Beltre.
Holliday had a bad April, and then hit well for Oakland:
.286 wOBA – April
.389 wOBA – May
.364 wOBA – JUne
.421 wOBA – July
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 12, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
Tell me
Who is suggesting paying Adrian Beltre $18-20m a season?
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No one is suggesting paying Holliday $18-20 million
All I am suggesting Holliday is a very good player.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 12, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
For $18-20m
We need to be 100% sure, and he simply wasn’t good for most of his tenure in Oakland. And, the AL West was a bad pitching division for the first half of ’09.
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He had a mechanical issue with his swing in the beginning of the year
he fixed it, and started hitting well before he left Oakland.
I still don’t think he’s the number 1 option, but it’s not because he magically won’t be able to hit AL pitchers.
Let's just save the money
And go after Carl Crawford (hopefully) next season.
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But why?
Why do we need a speedster in the smallest field in modern baseball? Especially when he can’t even hit .800.
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I'm talking the total package
Yeah, he’s fast, but I don’t care about his outfield speed. I care about what he does with the bat because we know he can play defense — make reads, get jumps, etc.
I just don’t think Holliday would mesh with this team. That’s just a gut feeling. I’d still probably take Bay over Crawford, too.
I don’t know … my head is going to explode, I think.
…3…2…1…BOOM.
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But we know he has a career .772 OPS
Which is completely unacceptable for LF at Fenway for any type of money. We have the privilege of hiding a crappy defensive player.
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Sorry, can't answer
Head exploded.
:)
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+1
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 13, 2009 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
That's $120-140m
for some hope. He’s a player who has either been in the greatest hitter’s park, worst division or both for his entire career except during his time in the AL. It seems just a little fishy that the only time he forgot how to hit was his time in the division. Not to mention a division that is far easier than our own.
Again, for $18-20m over 6-7 years, that’s a pretty big gamble.
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Again, who says Holliday going to get 6-7 years at $18-20 million?
Beltre is looking for 5 years/$65 million.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 12, 2009 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
And Bay is looking for 6/108
Do you think he’s getting anywhere near that? Slappy was looking for 10/350. Teixeira was looking for 10/225.
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It was.
Thanks, Tommy
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 12, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
Because
As skeptical I am about the contracts Theo has given out, I see no way he eclipses Figgins’ deal. Not with the relative lack of suitors, and coming off of the down year.
I’m not assuming Holliday gets $18-20m because that’s what he’s asking, it’s because players (theoretically) capable of .950+ get 18-20m. Do we think he’s going to be substantially underpaid compared to Teixeira?
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?
The AL West was the best run prevention division in the AL last year. Can you point me to a link that says it was a bad pitching division in the first half of the year? As Drugs posts above, Holliday, after April, had a wOBA that was at the same level as Mark Tiexeira. Overall, he had an OPS+ of 120 (even with April) in the worst hitter’s park in the AL. Add to that marginally plus defense and you are talking about a player who is worth a lot.
Look at the pitching stats for the first half of '09
Angels were 27th, Rangers were in the 20s, only Seattle was good being top 5. Oakland being 10 or so doesn’t mean a damn thing. And, mind, he was awful against the Mariners as the only decent pitching team he faced.
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Go nuts
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/split/181
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Go Nuts With Addition
1st half ERAs
ALWest-4.27
ALEast-4.42
How many times
Did Holliday hit against Oakland again?
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I'm struggling
to see why Holliday is an acceptable hitter because the Mariners alone were a top pitching team, even though he got handled by them during his time in the AL. The other 2 divisional teams he faced were 20th and 27th.
I’m saying it’s a question mark for the money he will receive.
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or the fact that Sox
hitters face the Os 18 times a year, and they are the WORST pitching team in the AL. Take the Sox out of the East (Holliday would not hit against the Sox) and it is not a great pitching division.
In the first month, when Holliday was bad, he faced:
LAA x 4
SEA x 3
BOS x 4
NYY x 3
TB x 3
TEX x 3
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
Don't forget
his June wasn’t exactly sterling either.
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So he wasn't good
against the AL Central or East either? Not convinced. Once again, we are talking about gigantic money here, not a “paltry” sum like $12-15m a year.
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You pointed to weak pitching in the West
It’s fair to point out that he barely faced the weaker pitchers.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
Correct, it does
But it also shows he can’t hit good AL pitching. Like, for example, the division in which we play a majority of our games.
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the AL West
has lower average FIP and ERA than the East both in the first half and overall. Next.
.364 wOBA, .372 OBP
Nope
Power went down while playing 15 games in the cavernous colloseum and 3 in Petco.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
no
since he OPSed 120+ overall for As (including all the “bad” months).
That .368 woba
Puts him with Nelson Cruz and Russell Branyan.
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So ...
A somewhat down month for Holliday = Branyan’s best year ever.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 12, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
Neither player--Branyan or Holliday--will get $18 million
And, if you think Branyan = Holliday, you’re crazy.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 12, 2009 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
Obviously
Which is why I compared Holliday, the $18m man at least, to Nelson Freaking Cruz and Branyan.
Do we really think Teixira signs 8/180 and Holliday earns $5m less per year? The economy sucks, but that would shock me.
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Speaking of Mark Teixeira
.738 OPS in April
.867 OPS in July
Tex played in perhaps the biggest hitter’s park in the AL, Holliday played in perhaps the biggest pitcher’s park in the AL.
Can Tex not hit in the AL?
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
Had Teixeira
raked for several seasons in the AL prior?
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My point stands.
If you’re going to base some guy’s ability to hit off of 2 months, so am I.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
Is there any established evidence of their being a significant gap in batting numbers between the NL and the AL?
For pitchers it’s obvious: They have to face one more hitter. Taking away a free out is big.
For hitters, it’s basically superstition.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
not a superstition
just false. Studies have been done. There is a difference on average but it is small.
no.
but you seemed to be arguing that hitters are much better in the NL (eg Holliday). All the actual data suggests the (hitting) difference is small…
My fundamental point is
Holliday wasn’t very good in the AL, and he’s going to sign a monster contract. If he didn’t have an absolutely massive home vs. away split from hitting in a huge hitter’s park in the NL often in the worst division in the NL, I wouldn’t be as concerned.
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check his road split
in 07, and also consider that Petco and Chavez Ravine are 2 of the 5 worse offense parks in baseball (where 36 of the road games where played).
My point is
That Holliday has been very good in the MLB and there’s no established evidence saying that a team should look at league-specific numbers when it comes to hitters. You’re using a small sample size when a large one is available, differentiating between the two using a variable that has not been shown to be statistically relevant.
It’s like saying Holliday is bad when wearing Red jerseys. Well shit, we better phase out those alternates!
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
For the money we're giving him
I really hope you’re right. But if he’s only good vs. great, then we’re in deep trouble for many years.
Either way, I hope he picks up how to hit on the road consistently awfully quick, because we all know we win at home. On the road… not so much.
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How in trouble?
Say he’s only worth the market equivalent (not WAR) of a 14 million dollar player. And we pay him 18 million.
Then we’re out $4 million a year.
And that’s a BIG if.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
As long as he maintains that
Until he’s 36 or 37.
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Since when are we giving him 6 years?
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
Between diff. comments on this site
it seems like people expect him to sign for JD Drew money. If Bay actually received a 5th year as the twitter report said, that’s 5/75 at least, probably 5/80. Holliday is easily the more desirable player on the market.
If we can get him for 5/80 I would be thrilled.
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6/120 seems about right to me.
Without discussing whether he’s “worth” it, I think he’ll get it.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
5/80 to 5/90 is my expectation.
5/90 is much more likely. But the market just isn’t huge. We’ve only got a couple real competitors that anyone’s heard of.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
Ah
But then there’s Omar. Silly, silly Omar, screwing up everyone else.
We can agree there’s no way he signs for under what Bay gets, correct?
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I dunno.
If Bay gets overpayed massively by a joke GM, it’s possible.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
Basically, Boras will say
“Well the Mets gave Bay a ton!”
and everyone else will say
“Are you comparing me to OMAR MINAYA?!”
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
You forgot the Mystery Team
Offering him 10/250! The same one who was going to give Drew 5/100.
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Boras' act is getting too old and well known to keep working.
He won on Tex because the Yankees were there to bail him out. If they’re not this year, he’s fucked.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
Something like that.
And he was on about the 9th year and 23 million.
And we left.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
"Evil will always triumph
over good, because good is dumb."
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HA HA HA HA HA.....
"Well the Mets gave Bay a ton!"
and everyone else will say
"Are you comparing me to OMAR MINAYA?!"
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I am all for phasing out the Friday Fail Hat.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
As far as home/away is concerned
Well it’s a good thing he’s coming to Fenway then!
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
We don't need additional help at home
We desperately do need help away.
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Away where?
New Yankee Wind Tunnel?
Arlington Bandbox?
We’re not playing our big games in Petco or LA (Well, Anaheim, but that’s a pretty average park)
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
The same away
Where we hit .107 OPS points lower in ’09.
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OK, but again, the big games
The playoff games
Will be in parks he CAN hit in even if he IS a product of hitters parks.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Did you not notice the part where it was "Down month vs. Best Year Ever?"
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 12, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
.368 woba was Holliday's AL season
It’s ridiculous to offer either anywhere near that money.
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no, not really
his park adjusted numbers are better than that.
No more so than ...
Beltre’s career .179 AVG/.299 OBP/.232 SLG (.531 OPS) at Fenway (16 games).
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 12, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
Why are we comparing
Beltre and Holliday in any possible way? They’re completely different cases.
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I think he will,
but we’re not going to pay him $18-20m a year. For what we’re paying Beltre, even his last few seasons would be worth it given the glove. Holliday needs to mash to make it worth the ridiculous contract he will sign.
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Both players have the same agent
They’ll both look for big money.
The one thing I agree about is the Sox shouldn’t overpay for any player.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 12, 2009 9:16 PM EST up reply actions
what are you basing "worth" on
because by WAR Holliday is worth what Teixiera is…
For the hell of it
I thought ol’ Adrian was tailor made for Fenway. That’s one of the selling points—right? BTW, Lowell is a dead pull hitter. With the Sox, he was better on the road some years.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 12, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
True
One is a guy who hasn’t proven he can hit in the AL.
The other is Matt Holliday.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
+1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 12, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
RE:
I’ve never really been “in” on Holliday. I’ve always been a Bay over Holliday guy. As bad as Bay’s defense is, I would still take everything he brings to the team over Holliday.
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I just have a bad feeling about Holliday
I’ve never really been impressed with him. I like how Bay has gelled with the team. Bay’s defense sucks, but he could slide over to DH soon, so another year w/ Bay in LF wouldn’t be the worse thing in the world, IMO.
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I like Bay a lot at Fenway
But he’s just not worth the contract he wants. Not as a LF and not as a RF. I don’t think Holliday is either. The more I think about it, the more I love the Cameron idea.
I agree on all of that.
Yes.
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i'd really like to save the DH spot
and not have it be tied to jason bay. why not get players who can field?
I have the exact opposite feeling.
I just have a bad feeling about Holliday
Man, I get the feeling the Holliday would be awesome with the Sox. And I’ve always been sorta meh about Bay.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I like Holliday better than Cameron as a player
But I think the point that we can probably get Cameron for one year gives us a lot more flexibility for the future, and personally I’d much prefer to have spots to bring up the young promising guys. Depending of course on Holliday’s contract. If Bay ends up getting a significantly better deal than we offered, Holliday is going to become more expensive than I think is worth.
If the demand for him does drop enough that he’s not absurdly expensive, Holliday would be my favorite, but I’m guessing that a year of Cameron is probably the best long-term for the team. Plus that defense all around the field just sounds amazing.
It is a good point about Martinez. If Beltre is there, I’d be surprised to see Youk moving over to third with any regularity- perhaps the catcher rotation could be generally against lefties Martinez DH’s, Tek catches, and Ortiz sits? Seems to play to everyone’s strengths. Though he isn’t the bat Bay was, Cameron is still a good hitter who will provide some power- even though he K’s an astronomical amount. He’s also strongest against lefties, so if we were doing the catcher rotation I suggested, he would be better when Tek’s questionable bat was in the lineup.
I think Cameron will want at least two years
Older players don’t like to go year-to-year looking for work.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 12, 2009 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
Though at 37 he'll have trouble getting that guaranteed
maybe a mutual option for a second year with no buyout so if we don’t want him he’s not too expensive. Honestly, I’d be happy with 2 years as I’m not 100% sure Kalish will be ready for full-time MLB action in the beginning of 2011.
I would assume
Coors’ expansive OF only helped that, while Oakland’s expansive foul ground hurt it.
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LF Cameron - No. CF Cameron - OK.
Platoon with Hermida – OK, but that means Cameron sits against righties when he’s not in for defense so he’s going to be on the bench an awful lot for a too-high priced player.
Unless we’re trading Jacoby, and I think we might, to put Cameron in CF, I can’t put him in LF against righties over Hermida.
Holliday’s bad month came in Oakland – the ball park with the biggest foul territory in all of MLB. I’d rather him over Bay (and I don’t mean Lyle).
Hermida/Cameron is fine..
add just a couple more pieces, Cameron, and Beltre, and I like this lineup.
Hermida/Cameron combination is not 18 million dollars worse than Bay.
He ain’t worth it. Looks ok. Hermida may be a huge upside surprise like Theo believes he can be. Keep Baldelli. Reddick, Drew, Ellsbury.. outfield will be FINE !!
Don’t need Holliday, don’t even need Bay !!
but now we DO need BELTRE.
Holliday is still my first choice at the right price but I’m starting to warm to the idea of Cameron. He doesn’t match Holliday’s offensive output but does improve the defense and provide greater roster flexibility. He patrols CF, Ellsbury slides to LF while Hermida is the 4th and final outfielder.
Beltre won’t provide the same offensive output if you slide Youkilis to the hot corner but he will improve the defense and has been 40 points better on the road the past two seasons. If he can be had for 3 years around $8M/year, I’m all for it.
Last, make a run at Halladay. Like most of us, I’m a terrible arm chair GM but something along the lines of Kotchman, Bowden, Kalish and Max Ramirez. If that’s not enough, try to sign Lackey. They can compete with an improved defense and rotation of Beckett, Lester, Hallday/Lackey, Matsuzaka, Buchholz and Wakefield (6th man/pen).
With all due respect
That wouldn’t even come close to Halladay. We’re talking more like Buchholz and at least Westmoreland or Kelly at this point, plus Kalish. Kotchman is nothing and both Max Ramirez and Bowden are nothing until they prove otherwise.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
eh
theres no way toronto’s gonna get that much. that sounds exactly like the deal we offered them last summer. they might get kelly, kalish and and pimental or doubront. i probably wouldn’t do that deal though.
Toronto isn't even getting just Buchholz for Halladay anymore.
They missed their chance last trade deadline. It was an awful mistake, and they’re paying for it now. Riccardi payed for it with their job.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 13, 2009 4:14 AM EST up reply actions
i thought i read
phillie was offering Happ, Taylor and Brown? while im not familiar with prospects that much that would be a pretty big offer right?
by German Red Sox Fan on Dec 13, 2009 6:30 AM EST up reply actions
Time will tell
I think my proposed offer will be as good as it gets for Toronto. Riccardi asked for the world in July and I feel they will get much less this off season.
Personally
I’d take two picks over Ramirez, Kotchman, Bowden and Kalish. They’re going to need at least one major player back to do the trade.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Yeah
They’ll require Kelly, Buchholz, Westmoreland, or more than one of the above.
Just to be clear
I meant one of those guys, not all of them.
I called the Beltre and Cameron combo earlier
MORE then happy with it.
Maybe somehow, we can lure Lackey too (not holding my breath).
negative on lackey
not interested in paying a ton for an aging pitcher who’s been injured the past two years.
Also negative on Lackey
…if for no other reason than as a fan I enjoy watching him lose.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
All the stats in the world...
…don’t trump the joy a fan feels in watching a wanker come up short. It’s why sports are awesome.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
Trade ?
Cameron Is Too Old And Too Much Roids . Please !
Not too old to produce.
Or was he 10 years younger in ’08?
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 13, 2009 4:15 AM EST up reply actions
That sounds like Lowell
Did anyone else notice at the beginning of the year he looked his age, and by the end he looked at least 55?
Question
What do we do if Mike Lowell-to-Texas doesn’t work out?
“There are still things to go over,” Red Sox assistant general manager Ben Cherington said Saturday, according to the Boston newspaper…. “It would not be a complete surprise if it didn’t happen.”
Manny ain't the only bad man.
We still grab Beltre
We were gonna be paying Lowell 3/4 of his salary, anyhow. Keeping him on the team shouldn’t stop us from getting the player we need.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
Can someone explain to me why the Sox would eat $9 million on Lowell ...
But are reluctant to eat $3 million for Tek?
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 13, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
I actually expect him to hit much better when he only has to play 40 games a season. And by much better I mean a robust OPS of .700.
He can't hit and can't play defense
Other than that, he’s fine.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 13, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
Having two bad defensive catchers isn't a good idea
I’d rather have a back-up catcher who could throw runners out.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 13, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
Varitek is a magic totem of pitching success
Just having him on the club makes our pitchers a full point of era better. It’s a true fact.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
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