Pedro Martinez
by revigik on Jan 4, 2009 2:12 PM EST
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PrintNow with the addition of Brad Penny, I know that we have our complete starting 5. However, as we saw last year, that can easily change *cough* *cough* Schilling. So, Pedro is available and you can bet he won't be expensive. As he said during the ALCS in 2004, "My heart and soul is in Boston and with the fans". Why not give him a Bartolo Colon type deal (maybe a little bit nicer, he is Pedro after all), and bring him to Spring Training with the big league club and see what happens. Pedro does pitch at Fenway better than anywhere else, and it would be a perfect Theo Epstein, *little risk, big reward* deal. And who wouldn't kill to see Pedro pitch for us again...
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I don't think he'd want to come back unless he's assured a chance at a starting spot.
And with our front five seemingly secure, I don’t see it happening. If all six guys are healthy to start the season, what happens?
However, if Wake could be our “long-man” until an injury comes up…
Manny ain't the only bad man.
the heck with him
talked too much trash when he left…
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
And Manny didn't?
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
ummm...this post is about Pedro returning to Boston, not Manny
yeah, I know my avatar is a picture of Manny…
but I wouldnt be rah rah about Manny returning either—-things end for a reason
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
Just saying, they both left on bad terms...
created by themselves. And you still like Manny, right?
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
I love Manny, ...would have his kids if he asked me to
if we could set conditions like : they get his $$ & athletic ability but my looks & sense…maybe its just superficial, who knows…but I always felt confident in Manny not Pedro during big games ( those against the Yanks especially) & not to celebrate ignorance, I feel Manny was driven by stupidity while Pedro was just mean spirited.
Seriously: Neither needs to return, reunions don’t always go well & Pedro has never shown himself to be mature when he is upset.
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
So it's a personal difference.
Just trying to see the difference between them as you saw it.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
You better watch what you say
My sister said that about Mark Paul Gosselaar fifteen years ago. I never forgot.
by DirtySouthSox on Jan 4, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Cool?
I haven’t watched that new show on TNT, and never really watched NYPD Blue. I guess I’m just judging MPG from “The College Years,” which is a little unfair.
by DirtySouthSox on Jan 4, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
Hahahaha, rec'd
I didn’t even remember this motherfucker was still alive.
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 4, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
Who?
I realize that I’m as old as this story, but who the hell is that?
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
Hey, we go back tomorrow man.
And I hated that show.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
He was also on NYPD Blue for years.
its a terrible show, but its terribleness makes it awesome for those of us who were 8 years old when it was on. Nostalgia is fun. When you’re in college people will have “Hannah Montana” themed parties instead of Saved by the Bell.
And I will go down to the Gainesville Wal-Mart, buy a couple dozen eggs...
and start warming up my pitching arm.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
I meant the Hannah Montana part.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
Man oh man...
Where is this generation going to?
by DirtySouthSox on Jan 5, 2009 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
Blame Disney for oversexing everything.
At least we still have sports.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
Pedro was the best pitcher I ever saw, and it was never close
He was much better than pretty much anyone in the game. Fuck Maddux, Smoltz, Johnson, Clemens and guys like that. Pedro was the real deal, and I love the motherfucker for all he gave us. I don’t think anyone who watched the 1999 ALDS will ever forget his game against the Indians. To steal a line from Bird, I believe God was disguised as Pedro in that day, I still think it was a dream. And that was just one of his many, MANY great games with us. He was better at what he did than Manny was at what he did, the comparison isn’t even funny.
However, he’s done. I don’t want him back because he doesn’t have anything left.
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
Yeah, but imagine Pedro back in a Red Sox uniform with the No. 45 on his back walking out to the mound at Fenway Park. It would be an amazing moment in Red Sox history. You wouldn’t even take a cheap contract and see if his arm is working in Spring Training? I’d do that.
= {anyone signed by the MFY}
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
but I want the comparison to be funny; I need a good laugh
“He was better at what he did than Manny was at what he did, the comparison isn’t even funny.”
I dont know about the above MGBB quote or how to even gauge Manny vs Pedro but I didnt mean to start a comparison that is impossible to make …
I know Pedro was a great pitcher…never said he wasn’t but Pedro did not come up big in games against the Yankees;
and yeah Randy, good point about the money!
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
I didn't mean to imply you made a comparison
I just saw Manny being brought into the conversation and used him to make a point on how good Pedro was. Was.
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 4, 2009 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
Did so.
Not over the “Daddy” season, but earlier on he was money against the Yanks.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
I dont recall Pedro dominating the Yanks
early on? I think one playoff game but def not 2004…I need Drugs or a stat person bc I doubt Pedro had a .500 record against the Yanks & before I hear “run support”, I get it but I maintain he wasnt a Yankee killer.
Look, am not saying he wasnt a great pitcher but no need to revisit or rewrite history…
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
I don't think Pedro has much left
and now has the stuff of a fifth starter.
I rather save that spot for one of the young guns.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy."
- Dodgers, Astros, Brewers, A's & Angels pitcher Don Sutton
He had a 3.20 ERA in over 216 against the MFY
Pretty good, I’d guess.
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 4, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
Over 216 innings, of course
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 4, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
wins & losses, please...
cant find head to head stats; if you found the ERA, you must have the W/L record
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
BR says it's even
11-11. He had 261 K’s and only 63 BB’s. That’s absolutely absurd.
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 4, 2009 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
Bad run support?
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
No need to revisit or rewrite.
This may have been the best game I ever watched Pedro throw.
And this was one of the great regular season Sox-Yanks games.
I was at this game.
There’s others. And sure, they weren’t all gems, but flipping through retrosheet, he lost a few one run games, and had the bullpen blow a few others.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
Remember that 18K game against the Yanks?
It is one of the most memorable games I have ever watched. From my memory, I think he like gave up an early run, then went nuts and struck everybody out. It was absolutely sick. It was right in the middle of the Yankee’s dominant era too.
That was the best pitched game I ever saw
No doubt, Pedro in his prime was great—maybe the best pitcher ever. He is one of my all-time favorite Sox players. But, I think he is done now and should retire.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 5, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah.
Hadn’t seen your links. Was running off memory. Funny to think that was 10 fucking years ago. I remember vividly sitting in my buddies basement, watching that game and going damn nuts. I actually think we got in trouble because we broke his couch that night.
I was at a bar in NYC.
Not a Red Sox bar. Talking way too much trash. Good times.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
I think I was probably deep asleep at the age of 5...
Let’s see… my bedtime would have been around 7:30, and I was in GA, so I may have seen the beginning of the game.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
I think that’s my goal for this season. Go to NYC on a weekend when the Sox are in town JUST to go to a sports bar and root for the Sox. That will be awesome.
A Sox bar or an MFY bar?
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 7, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Like going to any bar in the Bronx
is not insane, Good Luck with that one!
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy."
- Dodgers, Astros, Brewers, A's & Angels pitcher Don Sutton
I've been to bars in the Bronx wearing Sox gear
And never had any problem.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 7, 2009 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
Yes.
Professor Thom’s and Rivera Cafe are the best known.
You can literally find anything in NYC, if you look for it. I love living here.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
I watched game 4 of the 2003 ALCS at Cafe Riveria
We then had to drive after the game back to college in North Carolina so we could catch the next game which was during the day. BTW, driving from NY to NC over night after drinking and watching the Sox for 4 hours is not a good idea.
I heard Cafe Riviera is no longer a Red Sox bar, not true?
I don't know
I haven’t been to the Riviera in a few years. I do know that all of the old Riviera regulars moved on to Professor Thom’s, which is probably the biggest Sox bar in NYC. There are a few other Sox bars in Manhattan.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 8, 2009 7:07 AM EST up reply actions
I poked in there once last season,
they had the game on, and plenty of Sox hats. I don’t know how it used to be, but I think the bartender who initially established Riviera as a Sox bar went to Professor Thom’s.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
Not exactly
Sox fans started coming in the late 90s to watch the games (where else were you going to see Nomar and Pedro in NYC?). Jim, the bartender, made them feel welcome—and word of mouth made the Riviera a Sox bar. By 2003, it had received a lot of publicity as some of the regulars had “connections.” The Globe and some magazines ran articles about it as a haven for Sox fans.
The management of the bar loved the business. Jim catered to the regulars and originals, getting them in even when the bar was packed (and people were being turned away). He quarrelled with management and was fired after the 2004 season. In protest, the regulars boycotted the place, watching the games in other bars. In 2006, Professor Thom’s was opened by Jim and a few of the Riviera regulars, among others. Thom’s was set up to be a New England sports bar. It’s far better than the Riviera ever was—and, I think, far more popular.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 8, 2009 8:57 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks.
I moved here in ’06, so my history is spotty.
I too prefer Professor Thom’s, though I’ve never been there during a game. The one time I tried was the 07 ALCS, and I got turned away and went next door.
Riviera’s one major plus is that it’s only an avenue away from Joe’s Pizza. My favorite slice in Manhattan.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
Yep Thom's is better
It’s a great place to watch the Pats too. For Sox playoff games, it’s best to get there early.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 8, 2009 9:21 AM EST up reply actions
"My heart and soul is in Boston and with the fans"
At times, Manny said stuff like that too; something along the lines of, “I love playing in Boston, I’d love to finish my career here.” Both players went back on those statements later. Both left on poor terms, and neither will be coming back. Of the two, Pedro is more likely, and at the very least, it would be dramatic/entertaining to see him take the hill in Fenway.
OK
so 50% of the time he was good against the Yankees…
I am not saying Pedro wasnt a good pitcher; am standing by my thought that he was not a Yankee killer
& about the stats -they can work either way- could say that well, he should have held the Yanks to no runs or one run…
Its like the Arod isnt clutch/only gets meaningless hits argument ( sorta/kinda).
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
No one shuts down another team every time,
especially the Yankees. Pedro did it frequently. More often than not gave the Sox a chance to win. In Pedro’s 7 years with the Sox, the Yanks averaged 5.5 runs a game, and Pedro had a 3.20 ERA.
Even when he called them his “Daddy,” it was after he lost a 2-1 game. Pedro was very good against the Sox, much better than his .500 record shows.
If Grady had pulled him when EVERYONE knew he was toast, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
we'll agree to disagree without bringing in the manager & bullpen, etc
but 11-11 = 11-11
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
If you can remember
the 2003 season, run support DOES matter. I remember getting so frustrated because Pedro would go out and pitch an absolute gem, but they would end up losing something like 2-1. A couple nights later, Jeff Soup-Kitchen Suppan would give up seven runs in five and a third, but he would end up winning the game via twelve runs scored by the Sox. I used to get so frustrated! Remember the time Wakefield gave up like eight homers but still won? That’s another perfect example of why you can’t judge a pitcher’s dominance by his W-L record.
by DirtySouthSox on Jan 5, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
I didnt say run support does not matter but
w/l record is a part of how pitchers win awards, get into the hall of fame or not, get fans to root for them…and fans, sportwriters, etc judge pitchers by that, among other statistics
I aslo remember Pedro getting shelled by the Yankees and even recall the 2004 game 7 in which he got hammered in relief…Id say Schilling was a Yankee killer but not Pedro but I bet if you looked at stats ,Schilling’s ERA vs NYY is prob higher than pedro’s- numbers vs perception?
I am aware of run support but again — 11-11 equals 11-11
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
Win/Loss records
are one of the worst ways to judge a pitcher. You are right in saying that people do so anyway, but that is not a good way to determine Pedro’s performance against the Yankees. ERA and WHIP are far better statistics to look at. I hear ERA+ is the best, but idk how it works. Will somebody explain it to me?
ERA+ is...
just a way of comparing a guy to the league average. A league average ERA+=100. Everyone’s ERA is then indexed against that number. So, an ERA+ of 200 is twice as good as the league average. That’s why Pedro’s ERA+’s were so good during his dominant time; it was a period of dominant offense, where league average ERA was high.Sandy Koufax, while having an ERA lower than Pedro, has a significatnly lower ERA+ because he pitched an an era of dominant pitching. In fact Pedro has the highest ERA+ of all time for a starting pitcher and the second best single season of ERA+ ever.
I think,
its just league ERA/ player’s ERA, then take out the decimals. So if you have an era half that of the league, the ERA+ would be 200. I also think the ERA’s are park adjusted. The method of calculating park factors and all those adjustments is a little more complicated, and I’m not entirely familiar with it.
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