Red Sox and Jason Varitek "close"
Huzzah! I think he's still the best option for the cost.
about 3 years ago
bdalebs
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It depends on the cost and Tek’s willingness to play a lesser role on the team.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
Agreed
And at the very least, Tek has to be willing to take far less money than he would have gotten through arbitration. That was far more than he’s worth and there has to be a cost imposed for his and Boras’ greed or another Boras client will pull this trick again.
You have to consider what the other options are.
Trading for one of the catching prospects would cost us a pitcher that could be worth $20mil if they perform at a Beckett 08 level.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
I'm not sure Tek is better than Bard
Here are a comparison of the Bill James, CHONE, and Marcel projections for both players:
Bill James:
Varitek – .238 AVG/.334 OBP/.392 SLG
Bard – .268 AVG/.337 OBP/.392 SLG
CHONE:
Varitek – .227 AVG/.330 OBP/.389 SLG
Bard – .263 AVG/.340 OBP/.392 SLG
Marcel:
Varitek – .233 AVG/.325 OBP/.385 SLG
Bard – .266 AVG/.342 OBP/.395 SLG
All three projections see Bard as the better offensive player. Neither catcher is great defensively.
Bard was hurt last year. But, according to fangraphs, he was worth $12.9 million in 2006 and $11.8 million in 2007 (for whatever that’s worth). Bard has hit .288 AVG/.341 OBP/.443 SLG against left-handed pitching over his career. That would make him a fairly good platoon partner with George Kottaras, a left-handed hitter. Over the last three years Tek hit .258 AVG/.355 OBP/.426 v LHP and .230 AVG/.329 OBP/.380 v. RHP. Tek is clearly a platoon player now, whether he knows it or not is something different.
Kottaras is out of options. If he doesn’t make the team in the spring, the Sox may lose him. Kottaras hit well in the Dominican Winter League. A Bard/Kottaras platoon costs the Sox nothing. Whether or not that’s better than a Tek/Bard or Tek/Kottaras platoon is a matter for debate because tek is no longer a frontline catcher. Also, signing Tek increases payroll, which Mazz has estimated at $135 million already.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 25, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
We just have to keep the payroll under $162mil, IIRC.
If we sign him for $2-4 mil, then we’re fine. Invite him, Bard, Kotteras, and Brown to ST, and pick the best two at the end.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
Agreed
Though I’d love to see a clause guaranteeing him a spot on the roster if he can convince every player in the league who is a client of Boras to get new representation. I’d give him $6-8M for that.
I'd give him his own team if he did that.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
I don't know.
I think we need two more AL teams to balance with the NL. The NFL’s 2 conference/league setup with 4 divisions of 4 works beautifully IMO.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
Agreed
Though I also feel like it’s not really fair to the teams in the NL Central to have to compete with five other teams for a division title every year when everyone else has three or four other teams to deal with. Adding two more teams would just create that problem in the AL.
And where would you put the teams? In today’s economic climate, most cities that don’t already have teams can’t really afford to support them, and some cities that do have teams are always complaining about how hard it is for them. (Or, if you’re a jerk like the Orioles’ owner, complaining that another team within 1000 miles will hurt your franchise.)
Okay, then take the O's, Nat's, and Pirates, and combine them into one team with Tek as the owner, GM, manager, and starting catcher.
That team would play in the NL. That way there’d be 28 teams, 14 in each league, which would mean two divisions in each league, North and South.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
Except for the extreme over population of teams in the east.
So the boundary would have to be east of the Mississippi River, which would be odd. This is all just a pipe dream for now, though.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
Yea
Obviously this convo has no influence whatsoever, but what’s wrong with mississippi river as the divider? It’s not exactly through the middle of the country but it’s ok.
I guess my point is that having the divisions being two long, narrow strips of land, more square-like areas would be better. Yes it would be tough for seattle to have a divisional away game in texas, but better than them going all the way to boston.
True.
Maybe have it be like the AFL – one league is the western teams, split north and south, and the other is the eastern teams, also split north and south.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
They can't do that if they give Tek 2 years
Also, the Sox don’t really want to increase payroll. They won’t get anywhere near $160 million.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 25, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
$2-4mil isn't that much.
It might be how much we’d have to pay Lugo to go away.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
He will make more, and ...
they aren’t going to eat two years of a contract on a player they just signed. Also, it’s naive to think that they’d cut Tek if they sign him. He is the team captain, after all. They’d be better off taking a pass. If they sign Tek, he is on the club.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 25, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder if it's legal to include a clause that would allow him to transition to being a coach.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
I doubt it ...
and coaches don’t make as much as players. Why overpay a coach who has never coached?
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 25, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
Make it into a long term deal.
If he becomes a coach, it becomes a 5 year deal.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
I totally agree
I am really starting to question the logic of bringing Tek back at all. Offensively a Kottaras/Bard split is superior (Tek can still hit lefties, but Bard does so better. I am betting Kotteras is better against RHP since my grandmother is). The key issue is defense, and Tek is likely far superior to Kotteras and somewhat better than Bard. We are going to have to move on at some time, and really I am sick of knowing the Tek is up when it is the Sox turn to bat. he is an absolute rally killer. At least I know it is a good time to walk the dog.
I hope you mean 07
Beckett 08 was decidedly mediocre and might be worth $20M over three years. Beckett 07 was all world.
I’d trade decidedly mediocre for a good catching prospect, but not Beckett 07.
Nope.
Even in 08, Becks was still worth $20mil (according to FanGraphs). In 2007 he was worth around $26mil, IIRC.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
FanGraphs is nuts
There’s absolutely no way Becks was only worth 30% more in 2007 than he was in 2008.
07 vs 08
Beckett last year was essentially the same player as 07. His FIP was actually lower, he started 3 fewer games, his K rate was basically the same, his WHIP was basically the same, and he did give up 1 more HR in 25 fewer innings. On the whole he was quite unlucky last year, and a tad lucky in 07. Of course by the end of the year/playoffs he was clearly hurt, and his stuff was worse, but for the most part during the regular season he was the same in 07 and 08.
Yep.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
1 more HR in 25 fewer innings is a significant difference
And like it or not, outcome is a part of value — no team anywhere would have offered Sabathia the kind of money he got this offseason if he lost ten 1-0 games, though admittedly that’s partly because there would have been fewer bidders because too many GMs get caught up in W/L.
25 fewer innings and three fewer starts are also significant differences, and injuries count.
These are
real but not huge differences. FIP, WHIP and K-rate would suggest Beckett actually threw better when he pitched in 08 than 07, ever so slightly. It thus is fair that fangraphs gives the 07 Beckett a 30% increased value. It makes perfect sense. Of course most GMs are too dumb to know.
Statistically speaking, those are very significant differences
And even if it was fair that 07 Beckett was only 30% more valuable than 08 Beckett — suggesting that the line between mediocre and superstar is extremely thin — even superstar Beckett isn’t worth $26M. You can’t show me a single pitcher in the game today who is worth that much for a single season, no matter how overinflated a contract the MFY might offer.
You know as well as I do that a pitcher who pitches well but is very unlucky isn’t worth as much to his team as a pitcher who pitches poorly but is very lucky — that’s one of the reasons why Matsuzaka was unquestionably more valuable to the Sox in 2008 than Beckett was. Yet FanGraphs has him worth far less than Beckett last season. Whatever formula they’re using, they’re clearly grossly inflating the value of some factors.
It depends on how you value guys.
FG’s uses a fairly advanced statistical method that is one of the best systems out there. They use FIP (fielding independent pitching) to calculate the values. This stat only takes into account the factors that a pitcher controls (BB, K, HR). Go to FG and you can find the full explanation.
Now, your valuation system is probably a little less methodical. The reason no pitchers make $26 mil is because rarely do they consistently put up those seasons and long term contracts take that into account when they are issued.
All I am saying was
he was not really a better pitcher in 07 by FIP, which is a very important estimator of how good the pitcher is. He was a bit less valuable due to the innings difference. That is probably what fangraphas uses and I think that is certainly better than the usual ways a pitcher is judged. On the other hand, I agree with you that as for “set market value” Beckett would get a significantly worse contract after 08 then 07 if on the open market.
Yup.
Though in 2008 he had a significantly higher LD% (08=25.2, 07=15), this probably led to the higher BABIP.
Other things I noticed from looking at his numbers:
He was horrid in 2006, huge HR%, low K rate, high BB rate. If his BABIP hadn’t been so low (.270 that year), that year could have been even uglier.
It seems in the last two years he found his control for the first time in his career. His BB% was down huge from the years in FL and first year here.
Tek.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
Like most deals, this one depends on the money.
So I’ll ask the question:
How much is Varitek paying us to play him?
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
He was still worth $4mil last season, and he can't do much worse without being released.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
We should all be hoping that Tek either signs with us for cheap or retires.
Because this is the most likely alternative.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
Why?
Molina is MUCH better defensively and is more familiar with their staff. Let Tek go to the MFY. He’d only be hurting his Red Sox legacy, and the fans in NY would still hate him—even in pinstripes.
As an MFY Rally Killer, Tek would probably help the Sox more if he signed with NY.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 25, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But we'd lose the first round draft pick.
They’d only have to give us a 4th rounder. And we’d be allowing a former Red Sox captain to become another Boggs.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
Huh?
Wade Boggs was a better player than Varitek ever dreamed of being, and he only had one good season with the MFY anyway.
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 25, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
I'm saying he would be a great player for the Sox, then go to NY...
and with our luck, he’d have a career year for them.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
Tek isn't likely sign with the MFY
The whole reason he is in this position is he still thinks of himslef as a starting catcher. Posada may not be able to play catcher. But until it’s proven that he can’t, he is the starter on the MFY.
I really have no problem with Tek staying in Boston, provided that he’s in a platoon, and he is only signed to a reasonable 1-year contract. Any options in the contract must be club options, and any incentives must be performance-based—and not too easily attained.
I’d be happy with a contract of $3 million or less and incentives that, for example, say he must hit at least .250, get on base at at least a .340 clip, and hit at least 15 HR. Any incentives that are based on AB or games played will lead him to assume he is the de facto starting catcher. And, if he doesn’t play, he’ll sulk like he did last year when Tito pinch-hit for him.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 25, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
You can't do incentives like that...
In the CBA, it only allows for incentives based on AB’s, games, innings, awards voting and stuff like that. Schilling’s contract, with bonuses for winning the WS, caused a big stir and has been outlawed for the future. I think A-Rod got those big counting stats in through some sneaky Boras-trick. Either way, I know you cannot give do specific statistical incentives.
Not awards voting anymore
After Schilling joked that he’d split his bonus for getting any Cy Young votes with any enterprising voter who cast a ballot for him, the BBWAA voted to make anyone with such a clause ineligible for any of their awards in order to avoid the potential for corruption. (Which doesn’t help some of their more asinine past choices, but what can you do?)
I’m not sure if that kicks in immediately or in a year or two, but it’s definitely the end for those bonuses.
Then don't give him incentives
The fact is Tek turned down $10 million in arbitration because he overrates his abilities and still thinks of himself as an elite catcher. The contract the Sox offer has to be short—1 year (maybe a team option)—and not for too much money.
Tek has little value or he’d be signed by some team already. No one wants to give up a draft pick to get an aging catcher with fading skills. I can’t imagine anyone will give Tek a multi-year contract. His only value is to the Sox—and only because of his familiarity with their pitching staff. It’s doubtful Tek is better than Bard, and he has far less upside than Kottaras. Even at $3 million, Tek is far more costly than Kottaras, Bard—and even Salty (assuming a trade).
This FO has never been sentimental about personnel moves. I hope they stay true to form with Tek. Sooner or later the Sox are going to have to cut their captain loose.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 25, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
Can you imagine Tek and A-Fraud in the same lineup?
If he signs with the MFY, I hope they have adjoining lockers.
MLBTR has the offer being 5 mil for 09 with a option year
Bad deal if true.
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
Agreed
$5 mil is way too much.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 25, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
By that logic
Since the Sox are overpaying Lugo and Drew, they shouldn’t worry about agreeing to more bad contracts.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 25, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I know.
But, as its become clear that no one will sign Tek and give up a pick, I don’t mind overpaying him. I doubt that extra few million will prevent us from any moves in the future. As long as the reported option is a front office option and we can let him go if anything better comes along, I’m fine with it.
If Drew could stay healthy.
But, he is pretty damn clutch, and comes close to paying off his salary in the playoffs every year.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
If my sister had a dick would she be my brother?
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 27, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
Don't believe your dad
He got the wrong ‘girl’.
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 28, 2009 3:10 AM EST up reply actions
Did I beat a 'your mom' joke?
"Hey we got a lot in common here... I'm gonna rape you"
by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 28, 2009 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
I had to try
One of these days I’m going to outsmart a mom joke, I promise.
"Hey we got a lot in common here... I'm gonna rape you"
by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 29, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
Depends if she still had woman parts.
Then she’d be a medical oddity. And still technically a female, I think. Now, if she had a surgery to have one, then she’s still your sister.
For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09
Details of the offer
According to WEEI, the offer guarantees a second year with a $3mil player option or a $5 mil team option. As I said above, I don’t mind the first year, but guaranteeing the second year is too much.
Eh, it's not too bad
A $3M guarantee for 2010 isn’t the worst possible deal. If they were talking about $10M in 2009 and $7M in 2010, that would be another issue.
The Red Sox Handled It Badly From the Start
In my opinion it was insane for the Front Office even to contemplate giving V-tek the boot. Although his statistics may not impress, this guy is the very core of our team and a true Captain. I believe that if the Red Sox lose Varitek the team will lose part of its soul.
Forever Red Sox, screw all those pink-hatted babes, 'got no family, 'got no friends, 'got no life--RED SOX I LIVE FOR THIS.
How so?
They offered a declining player arbitration, which could have netted Tek $10+ million. Tek and Boras rejected the offer because Tek could have been cut in the spring for $2.5 million.
What do you mean by “true captain”? Did he mentor young players like Alex Cora did with Dustin Pedroia? Cora is now gone and no one is shedding any tears because Cora’s game has gone south (like Tek’s). Most Sox fans would have happily sent Mike Lowell packing if the FO had signed Mark Teixeira. Lowell, by all accounts, is one of the true leaders on the club. The fact is, there are many leaders on the team—Lowell, Ortiz, and Pedroia, to name a few. Timlin was a leader in the pen. The young relievers looked up to him. Should we bring him back?
Tito and Farrell are alos a huge part of the equation. I credit Farrell far more than Tek for turning Beckett and Lester around. Tim Hudson supposedly showed Lester a new pitch when the two worked out prior to the 2008 season. I’m sure Tek meant to do the same thing, but was waiting until he though Lester was old enough to handle it. Why does Tek get all the credit form some fans and media when everything goes well (no hitters, championships, etc.), but gets none of the blame when things go wrong?
The Sox will lose Tek sooner or later. He is no more the heart and soul of the team than Millar, Schilling, or Damon were or Peroia, Papi, Lowell, Youk, and Beckett are now. You can’t posiibly believe the Sox should pay for past performance. If you do, why not bring back Nomar, Pedro, Millar, and/or Manny?
It’s onw thing to debate whether or not Tek has value as a catcher. It’s another to stress intangibles, the last refuge for bad players.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 26, 2009 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Who said it?
Evidence, bro. :)
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 26, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
Most of the "evidence" out there is anecdotal.
I’m just wondering about how you compare Russ Martin to some of the other catchers you’ve worked with over the years and what he’s meant to this team this year in the postseason?
DEREK LOWE: He’s definitely come a long way. I was fortunate to, in my opinion, play with the best catcher in all of baseball, especially calling a game in [Jason] Varitek. And I went years, not starts, but years in Boston and never shook off that, because I had that much faith in his game-calling.
And I think Russell is eventually going to get there. You can’t expect him to be at Jason’s level this early in his career….
Came across this too, which should be taken with a HUGE grain of windbag-grade salt.
And watch this, starting around a minute in. I want this guy on our team. Maybe he’s a bum at the plate, but he’s our bum.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
DLowe left the Sox after 2004
Lowe pitched well in 2002, was about league average in 2003, and was awful in the regular season in 2004. I guess Tek didn’t have too big an influence on Lowe’s results when he posted a 4.47 ERA in ’03 and a 5.42 ERA in ’04.
No one is saying Varitek is bad behind the plate. But his intangibles are way overrated. Most Tek supporters and apologists point to the 2006 season, noting that the Sox went into the tank around the time Tek got hurt. To them, this is a sign of what would happen when Tek is no longer on the Sox. The fact is Tek was one of a number of players that went on the DL or were shutdown for precautionary reasons.
The 2006 staff stunk no matter who was behind the plate. Curt Schilling was the best pitcher that year. Schill was a veteran who had his best years in Arizona. When he was on, he was good no matter who caught him. Wake was the second-best pitcher. Tek didn’t catch him. Lester was league average, and every other starter was below league average. The Sox had a 4.87 team ERA in 2006 (98 ERA+)
What the Tek supporters don’t mention is the fact that the 2005 team’s pitching was just as bad. In ’05, only Wake was better than league average. The team ERA was 4.74 (96 ERA+)—and that was with a healthy Tek at the end of his prime.
I kind of stopped listening to pitchers talking about their favorite catchers when Roger Clemens called Posada one of the best. There were many MFY pitchers who hated throwing to him. The fact that DLowe cited Tek means very little.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 26, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
I don't trust the "my favorite catcher" anecdotes either.
Thus the quotations around “evidence.”
But the game isn’t all numbers. There’s got to be something to Tek’s rep. It’s not like his peers who voted him into the AS game listen to WEEI.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
Probably true
The problem is we can’t measure the other stuff. How much leadership and good clubhouse vibes would have been lost if we swapped Mike Lowell for Mark Teixeira? No one knows. However, nobody brought up Mikey’s intangibles during the Teixeira debates.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 27, 2009 7:19 AM EST up reply actions
Similarly,
if Mauer was on the market people wouldn’t be so concerned about Tek’s feelings. But when the options are a career back-up and a couple AAAA guys, the intangibles start coming into focus.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
For me,
The scariest thing about the teixeira talks wasn’t the years, or the money, or having three legit 1B in the future (Tex, Youk, Lars). It was moving Lowell. I admit I drooled over the idea of penciling Teixeira into our lineup, but I was very worried that loosing Lowell would have a huge negative impact on the team. He is fluent in Spanish and English, and bridges that cultural gap very well. He’s a class-act professional and a role model for our younger players.
Kind of off-topic I know, but “clubhouse chemistry” may be more important than some people think.
Who knows?
The fact that a bunch of guys sucked doesn’t mean that its Tek’s fault. I mean, maybe they would have sucked worse if not for Tek. A catcher’s impact on the pitching staff is impossible so I won’t try.
Not my point
I simply pointed out that the Sox pitched just as badly as a team in 2005 as they did in 2006, a year that most Tek supporters (fans and media) point to as an indication of what happens when Tek isn’t behind the plate. While I think Tek is good behind the plate, I think his supposed intangibles are overrated.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 27, 2009 7:16 AM EST up reply actions
"true Captain"?
How long until we start calling guys “True Sox”?
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 26, 2009 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
And we can put the "true" Sox in pinstripes
:-)
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jan 26, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
And what's wrong with that?
Forever Red Sox, screw all those pink-hatted babes, 'got no family, 'got no friends, 'got no life--RED SOX I LIVE FOR THIS.
by RedSoxUltras on Jan 27, 2009 7:55 AM EST up reply actions
Above comment refers to the comment entitled "true captain" by the way
Forever Red Sox, screw all those pink-hatted babes, 'got no family, 'got no friends, 'got no life--RED SOX I LIVE FOR THIS.
by RedSoxUltras on Jan 27, 2009 7:56 AM EST up reply actions
Wow I love the response!!! I retain the right to disagree however...
Point goes to Drugs Delaney who answered with a pretty convincing argument. The reason I believe we should hold on to Jason Varitek, Delaney and all those who disagree with me, is perhaps due to a yearning for a certain team spirit that seems to have all but evaporated nowadays. It’s not that credit should be given where none is due as is sometimes the case with “old timers” like Varitek, rather it’s a feeling that baseball players amount to not very much than highly payed “whores” who we rake in when they are at the top of their game and dump when their best playing days are over, albeit certainly no poorer than they were before. The point I’m trying to make is that personally as a BoSox fan I feel a deep attachment to those few players who stick with the same team for their entire career. To me these players, all too rare in the modern world of baseball, could almost be considered heirlooms, men that embody the pride and joy of the team - if we call ourselves Red Sox fans, then how come we can’t respect a player who might love the team just as much as we do? Rather than running these guys out of town as soon as their stats start to dip and as soon as we fail to decorate our fat fingers with another Championship Ring, we should respect and honor these players for what they symbolize . To me Wakefield and Varitek are two such players, guys who very much embodied the spirit of the Red Sox throughout the 1990s and 2000s.
Forever Red Sox, screw all those pink-hatted babes, 'got no family, 'got no friends, 'got no life--RED SOX I LIVE FOR THIS.
thats why you retire their numbers, or give them standing o’s when they come back, or give them a spot on the Sox bench, hire them as coaches. I do not think that just because a player prefers a team and its fans is a reason to give him money when he is not worth it. It all boils down to the fact that it’s a business, and Tek’s offense is not good business for the Sox.
I’d love to see a player like Dusty stay for his whole career, but you dont mix business with pleasure sadly.
Homer: Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
by DougieWentDeep on Jan 27, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
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