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Tim Wakefield and disrespect

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via cache.boston.com

Forgive me, people. It's soapbox time. Some numbers first:

Since Wakefield returned to being a full-time starter for the Sox (2003).

Has averaged:

30 starts per year.

187 2/3 IP per year.

Almost 6 1/3 IP per game.

His ERA+ every season since 2003: 114, 100, 109, 103, 100, 112.

His WHIPs every season since 2003: 1.31, 1.38, 1.23, 1.33, 1.35, 1.18

I've seen several words/phrases used to describe Tim Wakefield, such as or synonymous to: unreliable, ineffective, inconsistent, injury-prone, old and ineffective, old and unreliable, old and inconsistent, old and injury-prone, old-prone and injury, inreliable and unprone, inold and prone-consistent. It's become kind of confusing to follow all the different permutations. 

We have celebrated the acquisitions of John Smoltz and Brad Penny @ $5M or + guaranteed for one year, and I have seen people crap all over Tim Wakefield @ $4M for essentially one year. I've celebrated the former as well, and it's high-time we also celebrate the latter.

Looking at his numbers, Wakefield has not been injury-prone in the latter part of his career with the Sox. After age 35, there aren't many starters who put up the numbers he does year after year, while averaging those statistics in terms of use. 

I'll accept few arguments about Wakefield's status on the Sox.

If someone wants to say he shouldn't start in the playoffs, I'll say fine. We should have better options, on a game-by-game basis, among the combination of Lester, Becks, Daisuke, Smoltz, Penny, and perhaps Buchholz and Bowden. I'm not going to argue that his potential to dominate on a game-by-game basis is going to be better than any of those guys. 

If someone (especially Wakefield) has the medical expertise at-hand to diagnose his shoulder and back as being beyond repair or too much for him to be a durable consistent starter for the Sox, then I'll hear that as well. A lot of his value is tied to his ability to take the ball and give a pretty consistent 6 innings per game for 30 starts a year. If Wake decides to retire before the season begins (and there have certainly been whispers) then I'll accept that. If he starts the year, then he's probably pretty secure in the idea that his health will hold up for the most part, so I think those arguments are pretty moot at that point.

If someone wants to make the argument about wins and losses, I'll say STFU. Cause Hell no, I'm not listening to that punk-A bullS. If you don't know why that's the weakest argument about the way in which Wakefield himself contributes to this team, then we're as far apart as to be speaking different languages.

Another frequent argument about Wakefield is the general offensive output of his personal catchers since Mirabelli really fell off the table after 2005. The easy counterargument to that, now, is that our starter wasn't any great shakes offensively last year either. There might be some general offensive malaise when Wake pitches, it at least seems that way, but it seems foolhardy at this point to blame it on his catcher.

I'm rambling. The main point is, I remain securely unconvinced that Wakefield is anything but a positive to the Red Sox. He pitches well, has shown excellent durability for his age, and costs next to nothing in baseball terms. He, in fact, costs less than our low-risk acquisitions for the starting staff, and is a lower risk than either in terms of health. Celebrate Wake

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Comments

Display:

R-E-S-P-E-C-T...

Aretha is speaking to N-G.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 22, 2009 10:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I have no problem with Wake as a fifth starter before the all-star break

But he doesn’t have the arm anymore to avoid going on the DL at some point, so you have to have at least six starters to get through the year if you’re relying on him. But at $4M for better than league average pitching for a fifth starter, he’s a huge bargain, even if he can only give us 20 starts.

The way I see it, Wake gets the first half of the season. When his arm falls off again, Smoltz will be ready to begin his season.

by RSNexile on Jan 22, 2009 10:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Why you think he'll be on the DL much?

He’s pitched 180+ innings 5 of the last 6 years.

by BTLove on Jan 22, 2009 10:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And how many of those years did he end up on the DL?

He’s ended up with a tired shoulder every year for the past several years. Wouldn’t it be better to have him pitch 140 innings with 20 starts and have him healthy all year?

by RSNexile on Jan 23, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You tel me...

How many? I remember him pitching in the playoffs a lot of years. While he has been terribly bad in the playoffs, I’m not sure that is because of a tired shoulder because the nature of the knuckleball does not require a hard throw. I think a combination of patient hitters (more likely to play in the playoffs) and cold weather hurt his postseason numbers.

I would rather he pitch more innings then less,, unless you think he can lower his ERA significantly by pitching that much less?

by BTLove on Jan 23, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It doesn't. The key to his longevity is the soft throw.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 23, 2009 10:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, let's see

He went on the DL last season. He went on the DL in 2007. He missed two months in 2006. That’s three years in a row for a pitcher who is going to be 43 this year and always has a tired shoulder at the end of the season despite not throwing harder than some of the guys I played against in Little League. It’s not cold weather — he’s had ERA’s of 3.90, 2.59, and 4.06 the last three Aprils, before it gets warm, and each year that figure was well below his ERA for the whole year. Plain and simple, he falls apart not long after the all-star break, which tells me he’s not physically capable of pitching effectively for a full season as a starter.

My conclusion is that he should should be the #5 starter for at least the first two months of the season. When Smoltz is healthy enough to pitch, he should start out in the bullpen working an inning here or there, with Wake staying in the rotation. By the time Smoltz is ready to take a regular turn in the rotation, we’ll be about at the point in the season where Wake’s arm is about to fall off again. Then Smoltz joins the rotation for the rest of the season and Wake goes to the pen, where he’ll be an effective slow-pitch foil for Beckett, Dice-K, Lester, Penny, and Smoltz, all of whom can hit mid- to upper-90s. In fact, I can see Wake as a very effective bridge from the starters to Paps because that kind of extreme change of pace in the middle of a game can wreak havoc on hitters’ timing.

by RSNexile on Jan 24, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like a plan.

But, it could also be his arm tiring. Maybe his arm is weak from having thrown 90% knucklers for so many years. Have him do some heavier lifting in the weight room.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 25, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

His arm didn't used to tire from throwing 90% pitches that take little to no effort

That’s a sign that he’s falling apart.

There’s no shame in being a 43 year old pitcher who can’t stay in the rotation for a whole season. They can’t all be Nolan Ryan (freak of nature) or Roger Clemens (steroid abuser).

by RSNexile on Jan 25, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

True.

But he could stand to strengthen up a little. Keep his muscles healthy.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 25, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

At his age, if he’s not used to weight training already, starting a program now that would get him strong enough to last through the season is more likely to cause a catastrophic shoulder injury.

by RSNexile on Jan 25, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure he does a little.

Just incremental increases until July, at which point he should be strong enough.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 25, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps you should contact the front office and suggest that a member of their starting rotation should ‘do some weight training’. Unbelievable.

"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"

by britsoxfan on Jan 25, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's all hypothetical.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 25, 2009 7:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So what I'm still not convinced.

He has been bad in the playoffs every year of his career except for 2003 and 1992. It didn’t just start in the last few years. Now, he’s also had bad Septembers the last few years, but he’s had some really good starts in there. I’m not sure how much of a conclusion you can draw from such limited innings. My guess for the postseason failures is better, more consistent hitters who can “game-plan” more for Wake’s knuckle. I guess my question is what were the DL stints for? Tired arm? I dunno. He’s pitched a lot innings the last 5 years even with the DL stays.

by BTLove on Jan 25, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He had back issues once or twice...

and his shoulder got messed up, IIRC.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 27, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One of the greats...

Should be put in the same boat as the many greats of the Boston Red Sox. What he has given us in his decade a bit career in Boston in the rolls he has had is more then what Manny or anyone else has given us.

by Binga58 on Jan 22, 2009 10:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Funnily enough..

I just posted on the previously about how I no longer trusted Wake. You make some good points Allen and at $4mil per its still good value, however I have to go with RSN here. 20 starts, first half, I’m all fine with that.
I just can’t watch him in any high leverage situation. Those innings where he gives up the bb followed by the hbp, then followed by the inevitable 3 run homer, its just killing me.

by sydneysox on Jan 22, 2009 10:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Okay, so have him be the easy win starter.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 23, 2009 10:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't disrespect Wake.

I hear he likes to take aim at his critics.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Jan 22, 2009 10:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Word, ecoli. Word.

"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"

by Allen Chace on Jan 22, 2009 10:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Note Mike Timlin behind Wake

Best say nice things about his career, too.

"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Jan 23, 2009 9:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Indeed.

Mike’s got Timmeh’s back.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Jan 23, 2009 11:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

All the Way Tim-May!!!

Just can’t wait to see Number 49 retired on the right field wall. Of the biggies now, 34, 33, 49 will be retired. The most devotion to a team in his era.

"We're not going to give up," It doesn't happen, so who cares? There's always next year. It's not like it's the end of the world."

by revigik on Jan 22, 2009 10:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

How many in the Pesky * section?

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 23, 2009 10:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I Love Wake.

He is an innings eater and would probably be paid twice what he makes if he were a FA. I know he’s frustrating to watch at times, but he’s also one of the more consistently good pitchers in the league. A league average pitcher is worth a lot these days, especially one that stays as healthy as Wake.

by BTLove on Jan 22, 2009 10:50 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

+1

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jan 22, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rec'd

Wakefield: career ERA+ 108
Jack Morris (who some think belongs in the HOF): career ERA+ 105

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jan 22, 2009 10:56 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Bam.

Drugs with the hard facts. S’wat I’m talking about.

"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"

by Allen Chace on Jan 22, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I Love Wake as well

guy wins games and eats innings at a cheap price. Whats not to love?

by SoxAcumen on Jan 22, 2009 11:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yup.

Wake is a rocker.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Jan 22, 2009 11:26 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Hey, don't get me wrong...

I’m a huge fan and have been since we got him. I only said I didn’t trust him in high leverage situations. I’m more than happy to see him eat up 180 innings at ERA+ 105…as long as none of it is in the playoffs….

by sydneysox on Jan 22, 2009 11:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Syd.

Not targeted at you. Or for that matter, at NG. It’s just seemed alarming the amount of people I’ve seen here and elsewhere so sure that Wake is done, or worse, that he was never worth a D. in the first place.

"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"

by Allen Chace on Jan 22, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wakefield is one of the greatest things about baseball today.

We will miss him when he’s gone. All baseball will miss him when he’s gone.

Tim Wakefield is the coelacanth. He’s a living fossil, a fascinating relic of a previous era, relatively unchanged by the march of time.

But, like the coelacanth, you don’t want him pitching in the post-season.

"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"

by britsoxfan on Jan 23, 2009 3:15 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"

by britsoxfan on Jan 23, 2009 4:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Whoa. That's all. Whoa.

"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"

by Allen Chace on Jan 23, 2009 4:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s like a bad Ray Bradbury rip-off. Go back in time to some prehistoric swamp, foolishly deviate from the safe path, tread on a mudskipper… fast foward to 2009 and a man with a fish’s face is throwing knuckleballs for the Boston Red Sox. It’s the oldest story there is.

"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"

by britsoxfan on Jan 23, 2009 5:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he looks like a Murloc

….WoW reference

Homer: Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

by DougieWentDeep on Jan 23, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

/head slams down, starts snoring

<30 minutes later>
What happened? Crap, did someone mention that damn game? I’ve been conditioned by my lunch table.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 23, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hah

such a good game though

Homer: Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

by DougieWentDeep on Jan 26, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Playoffs?... PLayoffs? were talking about playoffs?

Wake was great in 2003, also other than the rays had his number last year, how can you make a statement until we see how it is going? This guy is streaky. If is hot at the end, you ride it. Safer to leave him off the roster though….

the difference between a yankee stadium hot dog and a Fenway frank is that they dont sell yankee dogs in October anymore.

by fishfarmr on Jan 23, 2009 3:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

"They are who we thought they were."

"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"

by Allen Chace on Jan 23, 2009 4:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And we let them off the hook.

Man do I hate Longhorn fans, well except for the ones that actually went there.

by mystman995 on Jan 23, 2009 9:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

DA BEARS!!!

One of Grossman’s better games…

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 23, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah that was a hell

of an interesting game on MNF.

Man do I hate Longhorn fans, well except for the ones that actually went there.

by mystman995 on Jan 24, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bears might have been participants in two of the best MNF games on ESPN so far.

That game, and this season’s game vs. the Pack.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 24, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hope that gets them more appearances.

It gets kinda annoying watching on a PC screen.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 24, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"this season’s game vs. the Pack"

Really? I thought it was a poorly played game by both sides, but whatever…

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 24, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The drama at the end.

It sucked for the first half. And don’t mistake defense for bad offense.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 25, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Offense?

The Bears have an offense now?

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 25, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

PI downfield on a dropped pass by Hester.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 25, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have a better question now

Can Hester do ANYTHING but drop passes and run fly routes?

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 25, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Over think a return.

And sit on the sidelines.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 25, 2009 7:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

That BS he pulled before the season really killed him for me.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 25, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and show his grit by playing with an f'd up ribcage.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 27, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Allan, like a few others around here,

you refuse to see the human process of aging as real. It is real, I assure you, and that is why your post is irrelevant at this moment in time. Wakefield has gotten too old to even be effective with his one pitch, which now is a slow melon that a five year old can hit. He will be soundly embarrassed right out of the box this year if he tries to become the next Benjamin Button!

I have nothing against celebrating his past performances along with many other pitchers who have moved on, but I do have a problem with ignoring the obvious age-related failed and embarrassing performances of late last year. Please use your diagnostic acumen in a team positive sense this time, please!

by NG on Jan 23, 2009 7:32 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

And I must say

That a perpetually recurring $4 M option is a really cool contract. It’s drama-free for everyone involved. I think Wake could get $2 M more, annually, on the open market.

"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Jan 23, 2009 9:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Can I rec something more than once?

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 23, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Reading material for NG:

http://www.dugoutcentral.com/blog/?p=421
http://pressbox.mlb.com/pressbox/downloads/y2008/postseason/lcs/pregame_wakefield_1013.pdf

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 23, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The big beef with Wakefield

Is that you never know what you’re going to get when he takes the mound. If his knuckleball is dancing and diving, you can get 6 or 7 innings of shutdown pitching. The flip side is that sometimes the knuckleball doesn’t float well and Wake needs to be pulled after 3 innings. It’s fair to say that on a game-to-game basis his performances are unreliable. I wouldn’t want to use Wakefield in a must-win situation, but I think most teams would say the same thing about their 4th or 5th starters.

Despite the unpredictable nature of Tim’s knuckleball, it has sufficient non-action more often than not and over the course of the entire season (20+ starts), the good performances outweigh the bad. His production is enviable for a bottom-of-the-rotation starter.

Will Tim Wakefield continue to be effective at his advanced age? I don’t know. As a knuckleballer his shelf life should be longer than a power pitcher, and I think that he could certainly put together a few more effective seasons. But coming off shoulder surgery it’s easy to argue the other way. I guess we’ll have to wait and see.

"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Jan 23, 2009 9:38 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

True

But you can also say you really never know what you’re going to get from Dice-K either. There are times he looks like one of the best pitchers in baseball. Other times he’s average, and sometimes it takes great effort to just get to the 5th inning.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jan 23, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Inconsistent is better than consistent

as a starter I think you would rather have an inconsistent guy. Given that they have the same ERA, let’s say 4.00, we’ll consider two pitchers. One gives up exactly 4 runs every start and pitches nine innings. The other will either give up 0 runs or 8 with a 50/50 chance at each (for simplicity he will also pitch 9 innings). You would rather have the latter pitcher because you know you will win almost every game where he gives up 0 runs and you will win a few in which he gives up 8. The pitcher that gives up 4 will win some and lose some on a much more random basis, obviously depending on your offense. This situation is bad in the playoffs, but in the regular season its fine.

by BTLove on Jan 23, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

+1

Well, I'll appreciate for you to keep my zingers outta your mouth!

by BoSox415 on Jan 23, 2009 9:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great explanation.

Rec’d

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 23, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree.

On a team with a strong offense that averages 5.21 runs a game, you probably want the consistent 4 runs allowed guy. You ought to win well over half of the games you play. Alternatively, even a great offensive team like the Sox is unlikely to score >8 runs in more than a few starts.

Eyeballing the 2008 pitching gamelogs, I count 21 games out of the 162 they played in which they scored 9 or more runs. That’s about 1 in 8 starts. You can’t expect more than 32 starts from Wake (career high: 33, high in last five years: 33), so using ratio that maybe they win 4 of his terrible starts. We also ought to compensate for games in which he pitches nine scoreless, and the offense scores nothing for him – at least some of those go into extra innings, where the pen blows the game. So I’d take 2 wins away. Result: 18-14 record in Wake starts.

I think the more consistent pitcher would have a better record, but am not certain. Anyone with better math skills than me want to run the numbers?

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Jan 23, 2009 11:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not great at math but...

Last year there were 7 games where the Sox didn’t score. This is about 1/23 games, so we could expect maybe one or two for someone who starts 32 games, of which the Sox have a good chance of winning one. Now, to figure out how many games a team would win who scored an average of 5.21 runs you would need a probability distribution of the chance of the team scoring 1, 2, 3, etc runs. This wouldn’t be hard to do, but just a little time consuming considering what we’re talking about. My estimation is that it would result in some kind of bell curve in which maybe the team scored 4 runs about 60 percent of the time. Just thinking out loud, so it might end up even? I dunno. Kind of a ridiculous hypothetical to begin with.

Also, you would expect that when Wake is “off” he gets pulled early and does not give up 8 runs, this would help the inconsistent pitcher’s numbers.

by BTLove on Jan 24, 2009 12:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wakefield is a wild motherfucker, he always seems to dominate or to get knocked around

There’s no middle ground with him. However, he’s a great guy, he’s not expensive, he’s happy with his role and his averages are very solid. Hope he can stick around with us until he’s 50 or so.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 23, 2009 2:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

He's a complicated man that no one understands

but his catcher.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Jan 23, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's the James Joyce of baseball

He throws his balls with a stream of consciousness, you can connect to its feelings.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 23, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Duality of Wake

The funny thing about Wakefield is that there is two perspectives to him. If your going to a game and realize it’s a Wake game, you are less than pleased because on a single game basis, he’s the most unpredictable pitcher. He could be lit up for 7 runs in 3 innnings or pitch a shut out. All you know is that you’re going to be worried the whole game.

But if zoomed out to a larger view, he’s actually the most predictable pitcher the Red Sox have. Over a season, he’s always good for a lot of innings, some very good starts, and a moderately sized DL trip. He’ll always be a Red Sox, it’s either that or retirement for him and he is without ego.

I personally love having him. I love his good days, and believe the Sox are more than capable of dealing with his bad days. And when his pitch is working, he is the only guy in the league who can make even the best hitters look like they’ve never played the sport.

by BigRedDog42 on Jan 23, 2009 2:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

To much love for Wake

Wait until Wake gives up 6 runs in an inning none of you will be saying any of this love BS.
And who the hell is going to catch for him this year think were going to have a another pass ball situation again. Wake is a cephalalgia to me.

by Red Sox #1 Fan on Jan 23, 2009 4:26 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I will. He got me into baseball.

And Tek is going to catch him.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 23, 2009 11:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tek is NOT going to catch him

Dude, how long have you been watching the Sox? Do you remember Tek catching Wake, and you don’t have nightmares about it?

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 24, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He better learn soon or he has absolutely no value to the team. The Sox need to match up whatever two catchers they keep on a game by game basis. The days of Tek starting are over. At this point Bard is better (assuming he even makes the team)—and Kottaras and/or Brown can’r be much worse.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jan 24, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bringing Tek back is pointless at this point, I think

He only has emotional value for us, he’d be an overpayed backup or downright bad starter. Tek should retire, I know he likely won’t, but he should.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 24, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He is familiar with most of the pitching staff. And most of the pitchers are comfortable throwing to him. That’s about all I can say in his favor.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jan 24, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, he's also a great guy and everyone loves him

But, indeed, it’s hard to find anything else of positive to say about him at this point.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 24, 2009 6:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Back in 1998?

He did no worse than Mirabelli or Cash. He was also transitioning to the starting role full time, which may have also affected his concentration.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 24, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This makes no sense

A LOT of guys were able to do something 10 years ago that they no longer can. Think, kid. They stopped catching Varitek for Wake, they had a guy on the roster who done nothing else but catch Wake. They gave up on Meredith because of that. I guess it HAS to mean there’s no way in hell Varitek can catch Wakefield.

He can’t catch Wakefield. Believe me on this, and get over it.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 24, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not necessarily.

You’re the Red Sox circa 2003. You’ve got a primo catcher who can hit, and you want to maximize his playing time and minimize his injuries. So you give him every fifth game off and don’t have him catch the pitcher who is as likely to hit a shoulder or knee as he is a mitt.

I bet Wake would’ve shortened Tek’s career considerably.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Jan 24, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This makes no sense, really

They could have added another catcher to catch every fifth day, maybe even more if it was a decent one.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 25, 2009 7:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And the stress of catching a knucler would have taken his mind off of hitting and other pitchers.

Catching Wake is as tiring as catching 3 normal pitchers, because the knuckler can move like a dozen other pitches.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 25, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And it gives no indication of which one of those pitches it's going to imitate.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 25, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This makes no sense

You guys are building excuses that aren’t nearly as logical as the fact that Tek can’t fucking catch Wakefield.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 25, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We'll see then.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 25, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hopefully, we won't

You never saw Tek catching Wakefield, admit it. It’s okay.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 25, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Started watching '97.

I saw several games where Tek was behind the plate with Wake on the mound. It was the only reason I got to stay up past 8 when I was 4.

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 25, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Then you just don't remember

Varitek looked lost catching Wakefield most of the time. There’s no chance he could do it now, at this point in his career.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 25, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Where's evidence for the "fact" Tek can't catch Wakefield.

Because he didn’t?

I typically don’t use the photocopier at work, not because I can’t, but because my bosses think having the administrative staff do it is a better way to allocate resources

We have two alternative hypotheses for why Tek didn’t catch Wake. Both are logical. Give me some evidence other than OMG 2003 ALCS, maybe you can convince me you’re right.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Jan 26, 2009 1:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Whether he can or cannot,

I think he won’t. To start catching Wake after not doing so for 10 years is one of those things I don’t see Tito putting him through.

by BTLove on Jan 26, 2009 1:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, you don't use the photocopier

But that doesn’t mean your boss has to get out of his way and put another machine, one that barks when nooone’s watching and likes to sing Sinatra with a Mariah Carey voice. Not sure where I’m going with this, but it was a bad metaphor to begin with.

I was actually thinking about the 2004 ALCS, and Varitek catching Wake sucked. Check his splits, he always done better with Mirabelli than with Varitek. I don’t have ‘evidence’, I just watched Varitek catching Wakefield, and it got uglier every game on. Then they gave up.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 26, 2009 5:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Haha.

I’m trying to picture a copier with a Mariah Carey voice.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Jan 26, 2009 8:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're lucky

When I finished writing that, I had images of Mirabelli singing “Touch My Body” all over my head, it haunts me.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Jan 26, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It could be worse, the Sox could have kept Jeff Suppan instead

I’m not going to complain about the personal catcher thing. Kenji Johjima on the Mariners catches everyone, including R.A. Dickey when he was there, and that 4-WP inning of Dickey’s this year IMO looked like it was more epic Johjima catching fail than a control issue. Johjima, like Tek and the Sox backups, can’t hit his way out of a paper bag although he may steal home more often. I’ll take the risk of watching Kottaras flail at pitching 1/5 of the time in order to see one of the cheapest and most effective innings-eaters in MLB pitch.

by morineko on Jan 24, 2009 4:25 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I Used to Love Suppan

I was so hopeful back in the 90s that the young hurler would become cemented in Red Sox lore as a great pitcher.

Forever Red Sox, screw all those pink-hatted babes, 'got no family, 'got no friends, 'got no life--RED SOX I LIVE FOR THIS.

by RedSoxUltras on Jan 27, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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