5th Starter Woes
Last night's game confirmed something I've said repeatedly. The Rangers have the best offense in the league, and the only team that hits better than they do is whoever they're pitching against.
Charlie Zink's debut was a disappointment. In 4.1 innings, he allowed 11 hits, 8 runs (all earned), and got only 1 strikeout against the team ranked second in K's. The only positive was Zink's 1 walk allowed. The pen sucked last night, but Zink set them up for it.
With Zink sent down after last night's stinker, the Sox moved Paul Byrd onto the roster, and gave him Friday's start against Toronto. This bumps Clay Buchholz from his scheduled start; he could take Wakefield's next turn in the rotation, on Sunday. Or he could be demoted to Pawtucket, and replaced by another AAA starter (and ultimately Wakefield). Despite his struggles, I'm hoping he remains in Boston.
Clay Buchholz could go down to triple-A and work on his pitching, but the value of that work seems doubtful. In 43.2 innings at Pawtucket this year, he has a 2.47 ERA, 43 Ks, only 3 HR and 17 BBs. He was sent down to work on his fastball, and through June he basically dominated the International League. Then he came back to the majors and pitched as badly as he had before.
My theory is that Buchholz succeeded in AAA without substantial improvement in his fastball and mechanics, because of poor overall hitting at that level. Many top hitting prospects are either on their major league teams, or working their way up through A or AA ball; AAA has plenty of career minor leaguers who can cover a position in the event of a major-league injury, but don't hit that well (e.g. Jonathan Van Every). That said, I didn't watch Buchholz pitch, so if anyone noticed his mechanics / control were substantially better during his month in AAA, let me know.
Buchholz's major league statistics tell an interesting tale. In some ways, Buchholz is pitching well. His line drive percentage is down from last year (29% in 07, 22% now), and his groundball rate is up (38.5% in 07, 47.3% now). His groundball to flyball ratio is also up (1.18 in 07, 1.55 now). Fewer line drives and more groundballs should reflect positively in overall stats. However, Buchholz has suffered because of substantially worse defense behind him. His Defense Efficiency Ratio is very bad at .642; last year it was .745. He also has a ridiculously high BABIP, at .358, which means many more of his balls are dropping in or being misplayed for hits. Buchholz has been terribly unlucky, both in general and defensively.
Buchholz is pitching poorly, however. No obscure stats can blot out the .376 OBP or 11 HR he's allowed in a mere 72.2 innings. His fielding independent percentage, a metric that focuses on what the pitcher controls, is 4.70, comparable to a 4.70 ERA. That's not good, but it is acceptable for a fifth starter.
If Buchholz's BABIP and defense improve even slightly, he'd be a league average pitcher. And if Farrell can help him cut down on the walks and homers, he'll be better than average. As Zink's appearance suggests, Pawtucket's rotation doesn't offer much hope for better production. The best of the bunch is probably David Pauley, who had a good start against the Yanks in 06 (6 IP, 2 runs). None of them are really promising, aside from Michael Bowden, who was just promoted and still needs to work on his secondary pitches.
I think the best choice for Clay's future development is to remain in the majors, working closely with John Farrell. He is a potential ace, and he's struggling, much like Jon Lester did. Lester didn't learn how to dominate major league batters at Pawtucket, and neither will Buchholz.
What do you think? Should Clay stay or go? Do you think he'll ever live up to his #1 pitching prospect rankings? And if so, will it be as a member of the Red Sox? Comment below and in the poll.
0 recs |
43 comments
Comments
Good post, but I have one issue with the Lester comment:
In ‘06 Lester was 7-2 before the diagnosis. Although he did have a 4.75 ERA, he was a lefty pitcher who was pitching 60% of his games in a park that is known as Where Lefty Pitchers Go to Die. He and Francisco Liriano both had an excellent chance at coming in second for AL Rookie of the Year in 2006 (winner: Verlander) before both had medical issues. Buch has struggled in all but four games of his career since the nohitter, 3 of which he went only 5 or 5.1 innings. If he had not thrown the nohitter last year, I do not think he would have nearly as long of a leash.
Don't question my choice of teams, or I will have to go all troll on you.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 13, 2008 12:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What you’re not thinking about is how highly the Red Sox thought of him before the no-hitter. Before the no-hitter, he was pegged as the No. 3 prospect in baseball, only behind Jay Bruce (who hit awesomely when he came up and still looks like a superstar) and Colby Rasmus (Cardinals outfield prospect who still looks like a future major leaguer even though he’s out for the year with an injury). Buchholz had future ace written all over him. This gave the Sox reason to continue pitching him in the big leagues, because they knew there would eventually be struggles for him, and to become an excellent pitcher he needs to fight through these struggles. I know he has struggled, but this is typical for many young pitchers. Look at Jeremy Bonderman from the Tigers. In his rookie year he had 20 losses, but then pulled it together and has pitched great since. I’m hopeful Buchholz will figure it out.
by aspeninthewindow on Aug 13, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bonderman not the best example:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7106
Don't question my choice of teams, or I will have to go all troll on you.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 13, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know what you mean, but he hasn't showed any improvement this year.
If anything, he has gotten worse. I would rather see him go to the minors for a while so that he can figure out how to throw something faster than 90 with confidence that the sting will be felt in the catcher’s mitt, not in the fans’, players’, and manager’s minds.
Don't question my choice of teams, or I will have to go all troll on you.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 13, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Francisco Liriano pitched 121 innings of 2.16 ERA (207 ERA+) ball. Lester… didn’t. He wasn’t coming in second for anything. Also I don’t think Lefties struggle at Fenway; Lester and Okajima have both flourished there. Lefties like Ted Lilly (4.30 career ERA at Fenway) and Rodrigo Lopez (career 3.77 ERA at Fenway, vs 4.80 overall) used to give the Sox fits.
I agree that Buchholz has struggled, although not in as many games as you claim. He’s had at least four good starts this year (4/11vs NYY, 4/21 vs TEX, , 4/26 and 5/2 vs TBR) in addition to the no-hitter last year. He’s only started 17 games in his career.
by 0157H7 on Aug 13, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Majority of humans being right handed, meaning most would bat righty + that big wall that creates doubles and easy HRs + more power hitters in game today
Fenway can screw lefty pitchers over if they aren’t careful
Don't question my choice of teams, or I will have to go all troll on you.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 13, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forgot about 4/26, but still: he had one good game (although only 3 innings as a reliever) after the nohitter last year, 4 this year.
Maybe we should give him another try as a reliever. He did a Masterson like job of it last year (and I know it was a small sample size, but one hit over 3 innings is pretty good, even against the O’s)
Don't question my choice of teams, or I will have to go all troll on you.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 13, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We may try him as a reliever
But right now he’s our 5th starter, and we don’t have anyone really better right now. I don’t want Hansack, Pauley, or Zink in the rotation, and the Sox don’t want to stunt Bowden’s development by bringing him up when he’s not ready. We’re gonna just have to live with him as our 5th starter until Wake and Colon are healthy, and there’s nothing we can do about it.
by aspeninthewindow on Aug 13, 2008 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
But after that, he ought to go to the bullpen anyway. He’s already up to 116 innings between Boston and Pawtucket; he threw 148 innings last year between the majors and minors. If he’s throwing like a AAAA pitcher, he might as well get some experience in the pen while keeping his innings down so he can come back stronger next year, when we’re really going to need him in the rotation.
by RSNexile on Aug 14, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh definitely
I’d love to see Buchholz in the bullpen come September. I’m pretty sure he’ll become a key setup guy once we put him in there. If we can get him pitching well out of the bullpen along with Masterson and Okajima during the playoffs(assuming we get there), our bullpen actually isn’t going to totally suck.
by aspeninthewindow on Aug 14, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Salty rumor
Rumor on MLBTR.com has the Sox looking at Salty and Napoli as catching replacements in the offseason. Anyone really believe the Sox and Angels would make a deal that could come back and haunt both teams? Angels are like the Yanks, we do not trade with them.
Salty for Buchholz deal is looking more and more possible. Others will be part of the deal but this seems obvious to me.
Trade Buchholz, sign CC, trade Coco for a reliever, sign a FA OF, Sox are ready for 09.
by SoxAcumen on Aug 13, 2008 2:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What OF position?
Bay in LF, Ells in CF, Drew in RF. Unless that player would become the Cora of the outfield.
Don't question my choice of teams, or I will have to go all troll on you.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 13, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'd need a solid 4th OF.
Corey Patterson?
Juan Rivera? (though he should get a chance from someone as a low-risk high-reward potential starting corner OF)
Mark Kotsay?
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
by Allen Chace on Aug 13, 2008 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depending on the RP available
If one is, for Coco, might just want to hang on to him for another year.
"Are you a real doctor, or a doctor like Dr. Pepper is a doctor?"
by Allen Chace on Aug 13, 2008 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Salty for Buchholz would be a HUGE mistake for the Sox
Salty projects to be a 1B/DH. His catching skills are negligible and he doesn’t hit well enough to offset his lack of defense. He is a project player. I’d hold onto Buchholz, and I think the Red Sox will too.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Aug 13, 2008 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You seem to think that Buchholz is going to end up figuring himself out and become a great pitcher next year. What’s your reasoning behind it, or is it just a hunch?
by aspeninthewindow on Aug 13, 2008 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's see ...
He has very good stuff. He has pitched well at times in the majors. And, most of his problems are mechanical.
Yep, he has struggled. Many young pitchers struggle.
Cliff Lee, a frontrunner for the Cy Young this year, had a 5.43 ERA 1.50 WHIP his first full season. He was awful last year too: 6.29 ERA.
Roy Halladay had a 10.64 ERA his second year.
Ervin Santana last year: 5.76 ERA 1.55 WHIP.
John Danks last year: 5.50 ERA 1.54 WHIP.
Scott Kazmir: 5.67 ERA 1.62 WHIP his first year.
Those are some of the better pitchers in the AL. Fans are very impatient. They love highly rated prospects until they struggle, then they want them gone. Most Sox fans would have moved Jon Lester for a bag of balls prior to this year.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Aug 13, 2008 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any insights on the mechanics?
IIRC, Francona or Farrell said Buchholz needs to keep his arm slot consistent. Have you heard or noticed anything else?
Count me among those impatient Sox fans. I wanted Santana, and I wanted him yesterday. Considering how good Lester has been at getting GBs and suppressing homers, he may be arguably better than Johan Santana for Fenway. Santana’s got 20 homers in 160 IP, while Lester has 10 in 150 IP. Adjust for league and ballpark, and Santana could have been a disaster at Fenway.
by 0157H7 on Aug 14, 2008 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
An example
In Chicago, the showed via split screen that Buchholz’s body position wasn’t consistent during his delivery. At times, he was leaning forward to much when throwing, which alters his arm slot.
Farrell has already re-positioned Buchholz on the rubber and I’m sure they’re working on his delivery to the plate, to make sure it is repeatable.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Aug 14, 2008 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And even if he doesn't ever become a star...
…I’d much rather have a league-average starting pitcher (though I think Buch will be better than that) than a not-so-great 1B/DH.
by RSNexile on Aug 14, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Aug 14, 2008 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is CC stats?
Bronson Arroyo had a 6.41 ERA as a rookie, 5.07 his 2nd year…. Your point?
Saying that Buchholz could be on a similar track as Roy Halladay bc they both struggled in their rookie season is a very deceptive.
Jon Lester pitched in a WS game and dominated a very good Rockies team in Coors, seriously stop comparing Buchholz and Lester. One is proven the other is a prospect.
BTW i am not being impatient, I am being realistic. The market is high, you sell high and fill more important spots. Pitching is not a priority for the Sox in 09, sorry but there are plenty of FAs next season.
Prospects are nothing more than just prospects.
CC is proven. Trade Buchholz get a catcher, sign CC. There is no way Buchholz will ever be near as good as CC.
Which is better for the Red Sox:
Beckett, CC, Dice-K, Lester, Wake and Clement/Ramirez/Salty….
or
Beckett, Buchholz, Lester, Dice-K, Wake and Kevin Cash/Jose Molina/Damian Miller/Brad Ausmus?
by SoxAcumen on Aug 14, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitching is always a priority.
And CC and Buchholz aren’t exclusive, though I worry about giving $150-200 million to a pitcher with CC’s build.
And to pre-empt the David Wells comparison, when Wells was CC’s age (27), he had 368 ML innings under his belt. CC has 1600.
But yes, CC is nasty.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
by tommy.otm on Aug 14, 2008 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But yes, CC is nasty.
Except in the playoffs.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Aug 14, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding stats
Let me clear up a few misconceptions you seem to have. I never said that Buchholz is on a similar track as Halladay because he is struggling. I merely pointed out that many very good pitchers have struggled early in their careers.
I also never compared Buchholz to Lester. I simply mentioned that most Sox fans would have been OK if Lester was moved before this season.
Buchholz is struggling, so the market is not high. Also, as Tommy points out, they don’t have to move Buchholz to get Sabathia. Trading Buchholz for Salty would be a huge mistake, as the latter can’t catch and the Sox have enough 1B/DHs.
You say you’re not being impatient, you are being realistic. OK, I’ll take you at your word.
However,on a Januray 4, 2008 thread about Sox prospects, you wrote:
I know we all love Jacoby, but Clay Buchholz is the gem of the system. He is a future stud to plug in between Beckett and Dice-K, or maybe Santana and Dice-K, =).
I also noticed that you looked ahead to Sox-MFY dream match-ups for the future:
How about these matchups for the next decade or so:
Beckett v. Wang
Santana v. Jaba
Buchholz v. Hughes
Dice-K v. Darvish in a battle for Japanese Supremacy.
or if Darvish does not move to the US and the Indians are fools, maybe plug in CC instead.
Either way, man, Yanks v. Sox would be awesome for a long time to come.
Jon Lester seems to be missing from your projection.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Aug 14, 2008 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I have to agree, everyone here BELIEVES that Buchholz is going to be a Cy Young candidate, I dont. I think he is closer to Bronson Arroyo, so trading him for Salty or Matt Clement and pieces/prospects seems like the logical move. Especially when you consider that Buchholz’s trade value can only go down with another poor season.
Fact is the Sox do not need Buchholz, they have Beckett, Dice-K, and Lester + which ever pitcher they decide to steal from the MFY, most likely CC.
CC is better than Buchholz, lets get a piece that can help us, Salty seems like that piece.
by SoxAcumen on Aug 13, 2008 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CC will cost $20 million
The Sox won’t pay that, unless they give it to Beckett when his contract is up (and I’d rather have Beckett than Sabathia).
Also, you can never have too much pitching. Just because you have a very good prospect who is struggling, that doesn’t mean you move him at the first opportunity. And you certainly don’t move a very good pitching prospect for a bad “catching” prospect like Salty.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Aug 13, 2008 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...
Of course they will. The Yankees will pay CC so will the Red Sox. Just like both will pay 100 million to get Yu Darvish and just like if the Twins had agreed to their deals they would of paid Johan Santana.
Come on. Money is nothing to the Yankees, Sox, Tigers, Angels, Mets and Cubs. Any of these teams will pay whatever it takes to get a Cy Young pitcher in their prime.
by SoxAcumen on Aug 14, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paying a Darvish or a Dice-K is different.
As the posting money doesn’t count toward the luxury tax on payroll. The FO has been trying to cut payroll, as the Sox play in a tiny ballpark and have significant debt from 2001. They’ll spend, but money isn’t nothing to them.
By the way, here are the current salaries for the Sox starters:
Beckett – $10,166,666
Matsuzaka – $8,333,333
Schilling – $8,000,000
Wakefield – $4,000,000
Lester – $421,500
Buchholz – $396,000
(I’m not sure how much of what remains of Byrd’s $7.5 million salary the Sox are picking up).
With Manny gone, JD Drew is the highest paid player on the team at $14,000,000. I don’t see them picking up Sabathia at $20+ million, especially as signing CC will affect what they have to pay Beckett.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Aug 14, 2008 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Sox trade for Matt Clement I will be pissed.
Bloody pissed.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
by tommy.otm on Aug 13, 2008 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think SoxAcumen
meant Jeff Clement. Matt Clement is only good for catching injuries.
by 0157H7 on Aug 14, 2008 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah sorry
Jeff Clement from Seattle. Sorry for the mixup
by SoxAcumen on Aug 14, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just bustin yer ballz.
Manny ain't the only bad man.
by tommy.otm on Aug 14, 2008 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I DO NOT want Salty behind the plate for the Sox at all. I don’t quite know what Buchholz’s value is in a trade right now, but I feel like we could get someone like Anderson from St. Louis, who’s major league ready but blocked by Yadier Molina, plus a reliever or lesser prospect if we traded Buchholz.
by aspeninthewindow on Aug 13, 2008 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I don’t mind trading Buchholz but we better get something good in return. In my opinion he still projects to be an ace. He has some of the best stuff I have seen in a while. To me he looks more like Pedro then Bronson.
I am fine with trading him we just better get an Evan Longoria or Jay Bruce caliber player in return or else it isn’t worth it.
by drabidea on Aug 14, 2008 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MGL from The Book thinks using Byrd to replace Buchholz is a “<a href=”http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/even_supposedly_smart_people_teams_can_do_dumb_things/" target="new">REALLY dumb thing to do."
The reason he gives is that Buchholz has a better normalized component ERA and is younger than Byrd. From what I can tell, Byrd is replacing Wakefield for now – Buchholz is listed as the starter for Sunday on Boston.com. I think Colon (who I neglected in my post) may be more likely to replace Buchh when he returns from injury.
by 0157H7 on Aug 14, 2008 11:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nobody has mentioned this yet
so I throw this out for discussion:
Could Buchholz’s problems be mental, not mechanical? I don’t know; I’m just asking. The reason I ask is that he seems to totally implode when things begin to go bad. He’s fine at first, but when a couple of guys get on base or the minute he starts to abandon the fastball, he’s toast. I’m not sure this kid needs to toughen up as much if not more, than worry about mechanics. He doesn’t feel pressure at Pawtucket, so his numbers are good. He comes up here, and he panics.
In either case, the best thing he has going for himself is a lack of competition. But you can’t keep using a guy who self-destructs early on each time. when you’re in the middle of the pennant race.
If he starts again soon, I really hope he turns it around or he WILL lose all confidence, if he hasn’t already.
P.S. As long as he doesn’t bat, I’d love to have Colon back.
by ccthemovieman on Aug 14, 2008 12:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
Most discussion of Buchholz’s problems from Tito has been about mechanics, but if there is a mental component, they’re not going to go all Ozzie Guillen and say it. It’s certainly possible, and the Sox have a sports psychologist to work on issues like that.
Alternatively, when we see Clay melt down on the mound, it may be frustration that he’s lost his mechanics and can’t throw pitches where he wants them. Another possibilty is that Buchholz has mechanical problems when pitching from the stretch. At any rate, I think Farrell and Clay will work this out.
by 0157H7 on Aug 14, 2008 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And our sports psychologist has done TERRIFIC work
Bob Tewksbury worked with Daniel Bard this past offseason after Bard sucked out loud in A ball, and he was able to work with Bard on his confidence. Now look at how well Bard’s pitching. Bard himself has contributed a lot of his success this year to Tewksbury. If anyone can fix Buchholz’s confidence issues, it’s Bob.
by aspeninthewindow on Aug 14, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's the sports psychologist who helped Bard
Like I already said
by aspeninthewindow on Aug 14, 2008 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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