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Jason Bay: Was he worth it?

There's been a lot of coverage of the Manny Ramirez - Jason Bay trade. I thought it'd be good to look more closely at his stats, to divine just what we can expect from him, and how good or bad the trade is.

Offense

Offensively, Jason Bay is NOT Manny Ramirez. In his best season, 2005, Bay hit .306  / .402 / .559 (150 OPS+) with 35 homers. In 2000, Manny hit an earth-shattering .351/ .457 / .697 (186 OPS+), having not only his best year, but one of the best all time by any slugger.

Ramirez Career Hitting: .312 / .409 / .590 (154 OPS+)
Bay Career Hitting: .281 / .375 / .515 (130 OPS+)

So Jason Bay in his prime is a good hitter, not an otherworldly one like Manny was. The real question is how Bay will compare to Manny going forward. Age is a factor here: Bay is 29, right in the peak years for most players (28-32), while Manny is 36. This year, their performances have been remarkably similar.

Ramirez 2008: .299 / .398 / .529 (140 OPS+), 20 HR
Bay 2008: .282 / .375 / .519 (135 OPS+) 22 HR

As poster Fugimaster24 pointed out, the Pirates have a strong lineup (NL's 3rd in runs scored), so it's unlikely his numbers will shoot up just because he has 'protection.' Bay may enjoy leaving the spacious confines of PNC Park - his career slugging is 23 points better on the road (although this season it's way better at home, .571 to .455).

One concern I have is Bay's performance against lefty pitching. Over his career, the lefty-righty split isn't significant (18 points of OPS), but this season he's really struggled against southpaws. His 2008 OPS against them is .679 (vs .953 against righties) and he's hit only 2 of his 22 homers off lefties. The culprit may be bad luck, with balls in play not dropping in for hits (.226 BABIP). Manny's also been scuffling against lefties, but not to the same extent (.737 OPS).

Another worry is that Bay may not hit well in Boston, or against the American League. His career numbers in Fenway are way too small to count (3 games), and he hasn't played many games against the AL overall. In 64 inter-league games, he has a .762 OPS.

One area where we can expect immediate improvement is on the basepaths. Bay is much faster than Manny, who was never a speedster (35 SB in 66 lifetime attempts). Bay had a career year on the basepaths in 2005, swiping 21 bags while only being caught once. He was 11 for 13 in 2006, but only 4 for 5 in 2007, the year he battled knee injuries. So far this season he's 7 for 7 in stealing opportunities. Bay's improved speed should also save some runs on the basepaths; Manny was a bad baserunner, often dogging it to first or being overly aggressive in heading to second or home.

Fielding

Manny was atrocious by almost any metric, but his replacement has also struggled defensively. By fielding win shares, Manny has been better the past two seasons (1.7 and 2.7 to Bay's 1.0 and 1.9), while Bay was better in 2006 and 2005 (3.6 and 3.3 to 2.1 and 2.9). A strength for Bay was getting outs on balls out of his zone, which is measured by the stat OOZ. Over the past three years, Bay's OOZ has been 56, 47, and 38; in the same span, Manny's OOZ has been 38, 35, and 14. Also, Bay's revised zone rating (RZR) has been consistently superior to Manny's; Bay's average RZR the last three years has been .857, to Manny's .714.

It seems to me that Bay has better range than Manny, and could prove to be a better defender. That said, Bay is no Ellsbury in left, and he may end up hurting us on the field, especially adjusting to the Monster.

Agent & Conclusions

Jason Bay's agent is Joe Urbon, not Scott Boras. The specter of Boras has been haunting discussions of Bay's pending free agency (offseason 2009-10), and it really shouldn't. Another of Urbon's clients is Grady Sizemore, who signed a massive extension with Cleveland. It's possible that Bay will do the same if he likes Boston and Theo shows him the money.

So Jason Bay is a good slugger who plays poor defense, but with better range than Manny. I'd say this year he'll be worth between 75-90% of Manny's offensive production. Playing better defense might make him more valuable than Manny; the Hardball Times already ranks Bay as more valuable, with 19 win shares to Manny's 15.

Honestly, this was the best return we could have hoped for. Ramirez is 36 and very expensive - to turn him into a year plus of Jason Bay is pretty good. Top prospects miss all the time, and draftees often never succeed in the bigs (looking at you, Hansen). I'm excited about this deal, and optimistic that Bay will succeed in Boston; he may even become Manny's long-term replacement.

Resources:
Baseball-Reference: Bay career stats ; Manny stats
Baseball Prospectus: Bay stats ; Manny stats
Hardball Times: Bay stats ; Manny stats

Poll
Having considered the information above, how do you feel about the trade?
I like it. Bay has the potential to be as good or better than Manny going forward.
113 votes
I'm guarded. Losing Manny's bat hurts, and I'm worried about Bay's defense, splits, and/or his adjustment to Boston.
49 votes
I hate this trade. Bay is going to struggle; we should have just kept Manny.
33 votes
It was good, but your writeup needs more VORP. I gotta have more VORP, baby!
20 votes

215 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 28 comments

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Comments

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yeah

I don’t think Bay is anywhere near as good as Manny was. This other blog I read was writing about how it may have hurt their shots at the playoffs with the yankees making such great moves.

-up-fo.html” target=”_blank”>http://droppedthirdstrike.typepad.com/dropped_third_strike/2008/08/al-east—up-fo.html

by flush on Aug 1, 2008 2:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

can't compare on this trade

This trade really wasn’t like the normal trade, where you evaluate who’s better. This was simply the Sox getting rid of poison on their team and getting whatever they could get. On sheer talent, the trade isn’t that close and, yes, it may cost us the playoffs this year….but Ramirez screwed the team by forcing the Red Sox’ hand. I hope Bay works out…..but don’t expect too much. I feel sorry for the pressure he’ll be under the remainder of this season. Hopefully, with the air cleared, the immature idiot gone, things will improve even if we aren’t as good on paper.

by ccthemovieman on Aug 1, 2008 2:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Thats what the sox management would like us to think, that either way if the sox dont make the playoffs this year its all somehow manny’s fault. Manny’s fault if we kept him, mannys fault because they had to make a bad trade. Anything can happen at this point, but i refuse to blame manny for this teams woes when he gave us solid production this year.

by spinz on Aug 1, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It isn't just management

The players had had enough of him, too, from what was reported. You don’t quit on your teammates. I DO blame the Red Sox for kissing this guy’s ass for seven years. Like a spoiled child who is never disciplined, he only got worse.

by ccthemovieman on Aug 1, 2008 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree; it isnt just managment

I think there was a lot of posturing & ego on both sides & they (finally) called Manny’s bluff. I listened to Epstein’s press conference today & at no time did I hear him say if we dont make the playoff’s its bc of Manny or we sacrificed just to get rid of Manny. What he said pretty much was we did what was best – its a standard line but let’s not place all the blame on the management. They have a business to run afterall. How long would your manager/supervisor or whatever put up with you if you were pulling this kinda boolchit? Manny had leverage but not enough SOx helped themselves financially; Manny would have looked better had he not been so vocal & if this was the first time he cried wolf.

I found Manny to be funny & exciting & defended him when Id talks sports with friends & coworkers but I am a long time Sox fan not just a Manny fan & while I dont root for mgt- players come & go

"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."

( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)

by MassGal on Aug 1, 2008 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reshifting the outfield?

Why not have Ells play left, JD play center (shifted to the right though), and Bay play right field (also shifted to the right)? Ells would easily cover all of left and left center and his throwing would become less of a factor. JD used to play center and has a strong arm and could easily cover right center and parts of right field while Bay covers the rest. Bay only has three outfield assists this year, but he has had 10 and 13 the past two years.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Aug 1, 2008 3:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Leave as is

There is no way Bay can cover the vast right field. Drew belongs there with Ellsbury/Crisp patrolling center, and using either of them as pinch runners/defensive subs late in the game.

"Well let me just quote the late-great Colonel Sanders, who said...'I'm too drunk to taste this chicken.' "
-Ricky Bobby

by nepats108 on Aug 1, 2008 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Loved the trade

Guess I’m one of the few around here who loved the trade. Manny is still my fav player, but we traded Moss and Hanson for one year of Jason Bay, and that’s wonderful.

It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.

by MerryGoByeBye on Aug 1, 2008 3:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I have something from BP that may make anyone feel better
2003-2008 BRAR FRAR WARP1
Bay 250 39 31.6
Ramirez 313 -15 32.5

Make anyone feel better?

It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.

by MerryGoByeBye on Aug 1, 2008 3:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Sorry about the poor formatting

It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.

by MerryGoByeBye on Aug 1, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For those with NESN

Bay is on right now (4:10pm) talking to the media.

by 0157H7 on Aug 1, 2008 4:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He kind of looks like an older, skinnier Papelbon.

by Randy Booth on Aug 1, 2008 4:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Clearly a loss of talent on our side, but a trade that will in my opinion, help our chances at the playoffs. We are losing a great hitter who half asses everything and brings down the rest of the team, and we are gaining an above average hitter who actually wants to win. He won’t have the same production as Manny, but I think the team will do better without Manny.

by Charger567 on Aug 1, 2008 4:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Brilliant.

His dad was a diehard Sox fan, and he grew up with posters of Rice and Yaz on his wall.

"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"

by britsoxfan on Aug 1, 2008 4:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Live streaming here

CLICK

"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"

by britsoxfan on Aug 1, 2008 4:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

finished now

"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"

by britsoxfan on Aug 1, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn’t see the whole thing, but Bay seemed to handle himself well and looked extremely comfortable in front of a room of reporters—which I’m sure he hasn’t done before.

by Randy Booth on Aug 1, 2008 4:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He did, didn't he?

He is well thought of as a character guy. I like him already.

By the way, Chris Smith is recalled from the PawSox.

"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"

by britsoxfan on Aug 1, 2008 4:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

too soon to ask was he worth it

no real way to gauge I think : maybe poll the players; coaches; manager; every single fan; opposing pitcher; player but after Bay has played X number of games…

Geez the guy has been a member of the Sox for five minutes…

No, he isnt Manny – no one else is - there’s only one Manny just as Ellsbury is no Damon; Drew is no Willy Mo; Cabrera isn’t Mickey Rivers…see what I mean?

"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."

( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)

by MassGal on Aug 1, 2008 4:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but will Bay go into the Hall with a P or a B on his cap?

"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"

by britsoxfan on Aug 1, 2008 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That depends

Will he buy a ticket for admission in the next year and a half?

by RSNexile on Aug 1, 2008 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!

"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."

( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)

by MassGal on Aug 1, 2008 5:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ultimately

the advantage to Bay is that he won’t suck up as much salary as Manny has been doing. I’m guessing that the money saved will enable the Sox to bring in more bats and/or give raises to players that deserve them, starting next year. Manny was quite simply too expensive.

by RickD on Aug 2, 2008 1:06 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Good point.

Bay’s salary
08: $5.75 million
09: $7.5 million

Manny will be seeking a multi-year deal, probably 3+ years at $15 million or more annually. Someone may pay him that. His bat is great, but the bad defense and baserunning detract from his value.

by 0157H7 on Aug 2, 2008 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

NOT SO SURE

i think they should have keep manny. bay is good but manny is amazing

WWW.VEECE.COM

by veece on Aug 4, 2008 12:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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