SBN Visitor w/ Buchholz Inquiry

by Chase Irwin on Jul 7, 2008 3:16 PM EDT Comment 29 comments

What up. Just a visitor from lonestarball (Rangers) and trying to gauge the value of Buchholz.

Boston and Texas have been linked -- at various times -- as potential trade partners this year. The only reason I even consider floating Buchholz is that Boston appears to have a surplus of ML-ready SP's.

Texas appears to have a surplus of ML-ready catchers. Between Saltalamacchia, Laird, Max Ramirez and Taylor Teagarden, it's going to be a matter of time before bodies are moved. I think one of that group would suit Boston as the heir to Tek. I'm not sure which one you would prefer, though.

Salty -- Elite hitting prospect; struggled in a small, platooned sample; under control

Laird -- average offensively; oldest of group; above-average defensively

Ramirez -- exploded offensively; quite young; serviceable defensively (good enough)

Teagarden -- GG defensively; power potential; durability is only concern

One of those listed would likely have to be the centerpiece of any deal for Boston's SP's. Of course, much more would be required.

Adding Milton Bradley to an already elite offense causes my mind to boggle, but I don't see how he could be a fit when Ortiz returns. However, I think C.J. Wilson would be of value to your club, going forward. He is currently our closer, but a young power-arm who is under control for a while could pair nicely with Papelbon in the years to come.

Catcher of your choice + Wilson + high-ceiling minors player ... is that enough? I know Boston's system is fairly deep, so I'll let you all suggest what they might target, prospect wise. If Buchholz is untouchable, please suggest viable proposals for Lester.

A few additional, well-regarded, potential trade chips in Texas' system:

LHP Derek Holland; OF Julio Borbon; OF/1B John Mayberry; RP Warner Madrigal; RHP Blake Beavan; SS Marcus Lemon.

Thanks for any input.

0 recs | Comment 29 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Thanks for Stopping by

The idea of trading with Texas has been talked about here as well, especially with Varitek’s recent woes.

I am not sure if Bucholz is untouchable anymore, or if Lester is untouchable now because of his recent success. In my personal opinion I would rather get rid of Buch.

I suggest checking out the website www.soxprospects.com It gives a scouting report for most prospects in our farm system. It is a pretty handy place to get you started with the rumor mill.

by drabidea on Jul 7, 2008 4:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Agreed:

I doubt the FO would want to part with either Lester or Buch at this point (after all, if they’d wanted to, they could have gotten Santana last offseason using one of them), but Lester has shown consistent success this year which I think makes him the more likely keeper. But the Sox do need a catcher – if not for now, at least for next year and beyond.

by soxaholic on Jul 7, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

At the same time ...

I doubt our FO wants to part with any of the 4 catchers. As a matter of fact, they might be making efforts to keep 3 out of the 4—with some combination of DH/1B AB’s generating additional playing time.

I think Daniels is content to wait-and-see for a little longer, but waiting too much longer would be imprudent, imo.

"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants

by Chase Irwin on Jul 7, 2008 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Untouchable?

Is Elvis Andrus untouchable? If not I would love to have him and Teagarden for Masterson and another high ceiling prospect. I don’t know if this is a reasonable trade offer at all, what do you guys think?

by drabidea on Jul 7, 2008 4:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Andrus is essentially untouchable

Mike Young will be moved to 3B when Andrus arrives. If Andrus doesn’t pan out, we are screwed at SS—one way or another.

If we were to give him up, it would have to be in a package for Buchholz. Would you do Andrus + Wilson + Kennil Gomez?

"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants

by Chase Irwin on Jul 7, 2008 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Buchholz is untouchable.

Just my opinion. Ya, he had a stretch of growing pains, but it’s not like he was Phil Hughes-bad. He’s been redunkulous since he went back to the minors. I think we’re counting on him BIG TIME for the second half (especially as Masterson was just optioned back to AAA).

And Lester is untouchable.

I like Teagarden and Ramirez as prospects. But young catchers typically don’t hit in the majors for a couple of years – see Salty, Navarro, Kurt Suzuki. (Soto, Martin, and McCann are exceptions to the rule)

Point being, I don’t see either Teagarden or Ramirez fetching one of our young aces. But I could see them fetching Masterson or Bowden. Both are better than any pitchers in the Rangers system. I see Masterson in particular being a good fit for the Rangers in that he throws a hard sinker and (recent struggles excepted) should keep the ball in that Rangers’ band box.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Jul 7, 2008 5:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I disagree

we have plenty of sinker ballers, perhaps not as good as Masterson, that could profile as mid-rotation types. Sickels had Bowden and Masterson as B’s—we can find / develop those.

We are having an impossibly difficult time developing that legit #1. Buchholz could be that guy, but it sounds like you all value Lester as an ace? He’s a damn good pitcher, I just don’t know if I see him as an ace. Beckett definitely.

"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants

by Chase Irwin on Jul 7, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't speak for "us all"

But I see Lester as an “ace” in the making. He’s been our best pitcher this season, even with a very shaky start. He’s become extremely confident with all of his pitches, and he’s pounding the strike zone much better than he ever has in the past. I think he’ll be in the discussion for the Cy Young next year.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Jul 7, 2008 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I see Lester as a #2 or excellent #3 as he develops. It’s very plausible that he could mature into some team’s #1, but I’m not sure he’ll ever have the success of a true, lights-out ace.

"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Jul 9, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hard to tell

Lester has shown he has the mentaility and the intangibles to be almost any teams ace. I think it will come down to whether he can adjust to hitters. He has all of the big league pitches and now has great contol. There is a definete possiblity he could be the next Johan. I agree with Tommy that he could be in the Cy Young discussion next year.

by drabidea on Jul 9, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I think Lester tops out as an elite #2, sort of the way Andy Pettitte was in the 90s.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jul 9, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

yep, +1 here too.

i’m not sure lester has the mentality to anchor a pitching staff the same way “Commander Kick Ass of the F@#k Yeah Brigade”** does, but he’s shown that he will provide very high quality innings start to start, making him a very very very solid #2.

josh beckett, courtesy of survivinggrady.com

by jjbooth74 on Jul 10, 2008 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think

You can say Masterson and Bowden are “better than any pitchers in the Rangers system.” Rangers have Feliz, Beavan, Main… all pretty solid prospects.

by sggut95 on Jul 7, 2008 5:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Holland

recently drew a Kazmir comp by a scout in the MWL.

"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants

by Chase Irwin on Jul 7, 2008 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I do

maybe not Masterson, but certainly Bowden. He’s got pretty much the same line as Neftali but at a higher level. Before last year, Buchholz and Bowden were neck and neck for the top pitching prospect in the organization, even though Buch has two years on Bowden. Bowden will be in the discussion for the top pitching prospects in baseball for next season.

I have a hard time putting too much faith in 19 and 20 year olds in Single A. Too many guys go down with injuries. Masterson is easily more projectable (word?) than any of the Rangers young guns.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Jul 7, 2008 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Bowden will DEFINITELY have his name in the top 5 pitching prospects in baseball next season. He may even slot at No. 1 (where a lot say Buch was this year). The thing with Bowden is that he’s actually pitching lights out at Portland—not many prospects can say that. AA tends to be a bump in the road for a lot of players between A and AAA, where they seem to flourish. I can’t wait to see more of this guy…

OverTheMonster.com

by Randy Booth on Jul 11, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bowden and Buch are better than any pitchers in the Rangers system

Masterson is not all that great, but he’ll be a pretty solid SP or RP for many years to come. We’re loaded with young pitchers with good upside.

It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.

by MerryGoByeBye on Jul 7, 2008 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bucholtz

is better than any prospect in the Rangers system. Bowden has posted good results, but Keith Law recently watched him throw at Portland, and said his velo was down to 88-91, and his command was shaky. Nothing to panic about, but I need to see more from Bowden before I crown him the top pitching prospect in all of baseball.

by sggut95 on Jul 7, 2008 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't say "top"

I ony said in the discussion. And he will be.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Jul 7, 2008 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Still

you aren’t worried about the velo observations? How do you think his stuff will translate?

"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants

by Chase Irwin on Jul 7, 2008 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

5IP, 2H, no runs, 4K

That’s his line from the night KLaw saw him. He lowered his ERA to 2.36.

I think it’s encouraging that he can dominate without his best stuff. He’s a pitcher, not a thrower.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Jul 7, 2008 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ramirez

Of all of those guys I’d love it if the Sox got Ramirez. Maybe a straight up Bowden for Ramirez deal. Reminiscent of the Garza-Young sway but with slightly less developed players.

by Gnick on Jul 8, 2008 1:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This feels fair to me. Would be interesting

to get a Texas perspective.

Bottom 9th B:1 S:0 O:0 With Bill Mueller batting, Dave Roberts steals (1) 2nd base.

by britsoxfan on Jul 8, 2008 3:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

did anyone see ramirez' play?

number 1 on the top 10, he was steamrolled but held on, then threw a runner out at third.
Bowden for Ramirez. We should send cash if we have to, though.

If the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only lefties are in the right mind. Bill "Spaceman" Lee

by BoSox415 on Jul 8, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That is very interesting

would you mind expanding on Bowden? I hope he usually doesn’t sit 88-91 like when KLaw saw him because we really need a dominant power arm(s) at the front of our rotation.

However, it looks like Bowden does quite well with whatever he’s working with. He’s also probably easier to deal than Buchholz, no?

"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants

by Chase Irwin on Jul 9, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bowden is faster than 91. He really is somewhat close to a clone of Buchholz, just younger. Buchholz’s arm is probably a bit fresher though, considering Buchh was an OF’er in college for most of his years.

I don’t know much about Ramirez, but I do love Bowden. He’s got a huge cieling. And, remember our saying in Boston: “You can never have too much pitching.”

Right Bronson?

OverTheMonster.com

by Randy Booth on Jul 11, 2008 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would do that

Bowden’s certainly a legit prospect who would factor into Texas’s rotation soon enough. MaxRam can hit and has looked completely competent behind the plate this season, but I’m thinking Boston would want a catcher regarded a little better defensively to let go of Bowden.

So for the record I would do that deal. Especially since at this time last year Max Ramirez was Kenny Lofton.

W: "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

by hubcityraider on Jul 9, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs