Manny Ramirez to Dodgers, Jason Bay to Red Sox
by Randy Booth on Jul 31, 2008 4:55 PM EDT
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PrintUPDATE: A new poll is attached.
It's all official. Here's how the trade breaks down:
Red Sox receive:
Jason Bay (from PIT)
Dodgers receive:
Manny Ramirez (from BOS)
Pirates receive:
Craig Hansen (from BOS)
Brandon Moss (from BOS)
Andy LaRoche (from LAD)
Bryan Morris (from LAD)
Stick with Over The Monster with more analysis later in the day.
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Aar
We might see Hunter Jones until Aar is out of the DL.
It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.
by MerryGoByeBye on Jul 31, 2008 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
So long Manny, You will be missed
Very surprised to hear the news when I got home today. Here are my thoughts.
Bay is a very solid left fielder and if he doesn’t work out next year, the Sox should be ready to make a move for Matt Holiday. I feel like we gave too much along with Manny. Moss AND Hansen plus the cash seems a bit overboard, especially since we need bullpen help (I know Hansen has been iffy, but I have always been a strong believer that he was going to work out in the future). Sad to see Moss go, he always looked promising, but I was pretty ready for him to be traded eventually.
Finally, I want to thank Manny for helping us win two World Championships and providing some great laughs(and some headaches) over the past seven years. Good luck in LaLa Land Manny!!!
"Well let me just quote the late-great Colonel Sanders, who said...'I'm too drunk to taste this chicken.' "
-Ricky Bobby
Hansen has always had good stuff, but we’ve never really seen it. He was brought up WAY too early after he was drafted and after that he just seemed to bust. I, too, expected a lot out of him but he’s never really delivered.
As far as Moss goes, he’s a 4th OF at best. He’s got some talent, but his ceiling isn’t very high. He’s a David Murphy clone—we have no space for him, either.
Bay reminds me a lot of JD Drew. They’re both going to mash and outfield defense is going to be spectacular.
I still haven't think about that
Man, we have now the best defensive team in the MLB, I guess. Youk, Lowell, Dusty, Drew, Ells, Bay? That’s awesome.
It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.
by MerryGoByeBye on Jul 31, 2008 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
this feels weird all over
first off, i like the trade. i like jason bay, and i won’t miss hansen. moss is more likely better off long-term where he won’t be buried under 19 other outfielders.
but as much as i’ve been pissed off at all the drama, i’m going to miss manny. the images of the greetings at home plate whenever papi whacked one will be with me for a very long time.
so long, being. be well, do good work and keep in touch.
We've got TWO Jews on this team, Mel! -- Denis Leary
Join me now, in the memorial thread...
... we will be getting drunk and singing Body of an American.
"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"
I don't get it
This boils down to Manny, Hansen, and Moss…
...for Jason Bay?!?
And the Sox are still paying Manny’s salary?!?
If that’s all you’re going to get, why not just let Manny go in free agency at the end of the season and get two draft picks? Manny’s been a distraction, sure, but not so big a distraction that it’s worth making the team worse now and not even getting any prospects in return or draft picks for next year.
You REALLY think 2 draft picks are better than Bay?!
REALLY think that? 2 draft picks in the next draft, who many are saying to be weak? We gave up Moss and Hansen, but one didn’t have room with us, and the other never quite played well enough for the Sox.
It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.
by MerryGoByeBye on Jul 31, 2008 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Which Jason Bay are we getting for the next season and a third?
The one who’s hitting .282 with good power so far this season? Or the one who hit .247 last year? And who isn’t enough of an improvement in the field to make up for what we’re losing on offense even if we get the best Bay has to offer?
Either way, even a straight-up trade of Manny for Bay would leave us getting the worse end of the deal. Still having to pay for Manny and giving up Hansen and Moss is worse still—if we were going to trade them, we could have waited until the offseason and actually gotten something for them. And I seem to recall when Pedro was let go in free agency, those two draft picks turned into Pedroia and Ellsbury, so yeah, I’d prefer the two draft picks.
Bad had a down season last year
Look, I agree that the Sox is losing a lot of offense in the deal, but Manny wanted out. We don’t know if he would play for us. He pulled the BS in that game against the Yanks, so why wouldn’t he do that again? The FO wanted him gone as well.
Moss and Hansen didn’t have room with us. We didn’t give up anything, really. Think about it this way: We gave up Moss and Hansen for one season of Jason Bay. Jason Bay, one of the best LF in the game today.
It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.
by MerryGoByeBye on Jul 31, 2008 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Bay had a down season last year, that is
It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.
by MerryGoByeBye on Jul 31, 2008 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't buy it
By that logic, we might as well have thrown in Masterson and Bowden too—we don’t have room for them in the starting rotation right now. And Lowrie too; Lugo is blocking him for a couple more years.
You don’t build a World Series winner by giving away something for nothing. And no matter how much of a malcontent Manny is, he’s always been that way, and this trade doesn’t make the team better on the field.
What are you saying?
Masterson and Bowden will only get better, while Moss won’t. Your best players won’t get blocked, no matter what. Masterson has plenty of room in the bullpen, and we will make room in the rotation for Bowden, you can bet on that. Moss wasn’t even the best OF prospect we had. Both Kalish and Reddick look better than him.
Oh, and this time wasn’t Manny the only malcontent. The FO and pretty much everyone wanted him gone. You don’t build a World Series winner around a dude that does not wanna play for you.
It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.
by MerryGoByeBye on Jul 31, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
You also don't build a World Series winner...
...by trading away a Hall of Famer and a couple of talented young players who haven’t proven anything yet, in addition to paying the Hall of Famer’s salary, for a guy who couldn’t even be considered a good bet for the all-star team in any given year if not for the facts that he played for a team on which most players weren’t even good enough to play AAA ball and MLB has that rule that every team must be represented.
If that’s the kind of trade you want to make, you at least dump Julio Lugo on one the other teams—then maybe we can talk about it being a good move. As it stands, this just smacks of desperation, which is the birthplace of stupid trades.
You guys are underrating Bay
Look at the numbers, really. That’s not Manny, but that’s pretty good. And he’ll even have the monster AND protection in the line-up, so expect them to go up even a bit.
That HOFer didn’t wanna play for us. I wouldn’t wanna test if he would pull some BS until the end of the season, so he could sit and not play at all.
It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.
by MerryGoByeBye on Jul 31, 2008 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I agree, pretty much.
And Manny was a really, really big liability in the field. I mean, terrible. He was to fielding what Mirabelli was to baserunning. Bay is an all-round player and the overall difference between them right now is close to a wash, and next year I think would favour Bay (allowing for the adjustment to Boston).
"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"
Are the Sox paying all the remaining salary?
I guess at this point it’s no big deal but man, this seems pretty lopsided for the Dodgers.
I couldn't agree more, RSNexile
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2008 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I guarantee you that the Manny problems were causing destructive tensions on this team.
Manny did not hussle, and seemed to resent others who did. After a bit of an initial separation anxiety, the team will rebound with a MUCH HEALTHIER ATTITUDE. It will show within a week. Count on it.
Great trade mainly because it got rid of a sickness on the team!
What does this trade mean for Ellsbury?
Just wondering. Covered Jacoby while he was in college at Oregon State and have been following him in the pros.
--JB--
by Jake Bertalotto on Jul 31, 2008 5:45 PM EDT reply actions
Doesn't mean too much
He’d been playing left for the most part when Manny was resting and while Papi was gone (Coco played center, mostly, with Ells taking over occasionally). Bay is an upgrade over Manny in left, so Ells will continue to split time with Coco in center. At the moment, Coco’s a bit of a better fielder, though as I’m sure you know, they both have good speed and get to a lot of balls. Neither of them has been hitting particularly well of late, so it looks Francona will continue to divide playing time between them until one gets hot. Whenever Bay needs a day off, Ells can play left.
Do you know who I feel the most sorry for??
Joe Torres of the Dodgers whose life is about to become a Manny-depressive living hell!
Remember
That Bay was hitting in a lineup that had little to no protection in it whatsoever. Bay will be better than people will think. I don’t expect him to be Manny, but I expect Bay to be damn good.
The Red Sox were that desperate to get rid of Manny.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Jul 31, 2008 6:07 PM EDT reply actions
That's the point
The Sox were desperate to get rid of Manny, and still got one of the best LF today. Unless Bay sucks for us, this is an awesome move by Theo.
It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.
by MerryGoByeBye on Jul 31, 2008 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Never really thought about the protection issue.
The other thing to think about is that he’s going from Pittsburgh to Boston and replacing Manny Ramirez. That’s a tall task. Can he handle it? I sure as hell hope so.
Yeah
I’d say the Boston media is quite a different animal than the Pittsburgh media. It’ll be interesting to see where they bat Bay.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Jul 31, 2008 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Except...
...that he’s not going to be protected. Think about it—Youk probably hits second or third, Drew the same, Papi probably drops to fourth, and Lowell probably hits fifth. That leaves Bay sixth. And who’s behind him? Tek, Lowrie/Lugo, and Ellsbury/Coco. Where’s the protection there?
I believe the sabermetric orthodoxy is that lineup protection
is close to being a myth. It’s an incredibly difficult subject to tease out though. At least, I believe it’s overrated. The important thing is that we minimise the blackholes in our lineup, and that means a better catcher, one of our CFs catching fire, and Lowrie takes all Lugo’s at-bats from now until the final trumpet sounds.
"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"
A Lot We Don't Know
NONE of us know exactly how bad an influence Manny had become in that clubhouse and dugout. From what I read today, the players had had it with him, not just management. This guy had become poison, and the Sox really didn’t have a lot of choice, at this point. They couldn’t go another day with him, so you can imagine how bad it was. Yeah, he was fun to watch and will be missed for his talent and and uniqueness.. Not having the threat of Ortiz & Ramirez back-to-back may cost up bigtime this year, but…...as I said, I don’t the Sox had much of choice. Manny’s attitude was killing that team, apparently.
On the face of it
This looks like an awful trade. Bay is a decent player, but not in Manny’s league as a hitter. Why would the Sox also throw in Hansen and Moss when they are already trading the best player involved in the deal?
Moss will probably ending being almost as good as Bay. If Moss was blocked in Boston, he could have been used in another deal to bring back another useful player. Instead, the Sox tossed him out with Manny. Hansen, while raw, has great stuff—and has too much value to be a throw-in player, which is what he was in this trade.
Things to remember: Bay has never played a meaningful game in the majors. The Pirates have almost no following. Many players have a hard time adjusting to Boston, with its rabid fanbase and vicious media.
This is a great trade for LA, Pittsburgh, and the MFY.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
Moss vs. Bay in the minors:
Moss: .287/.355/.460
Bay: .301/.391/.487
So, no, Moss will not be as good as Bay. Hansen has too much value? To whom? The guy has great stuff, but I doubt he is more than a throw-in. And you’re forgetting that the Sox had no leverage, and that Bay was the best LF out there. And that the FO didn’t want Manny around.
And Bay is not a decent player. He has a career 130 OPS+, with great defense. You can make a point about the pressure. Not about Bay’s skills.
It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.
by MerryGoByeBye on Jul 31, 2008 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I said almost as good
Things to worry about:
Bay v. lefties this year: .190 AVG/.333 OBP/.345 SLG
w/ runners in scoring position: .216 AVG/.333 OBP/.318 SLG
I hope Bay doesn’t take too long to adjust to Boston or the pressure of having to replace Manny may bury him.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 31, 2008 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm also worried about the pressure
And, you know, I’m very sad to see Manny go. But I’m afraid there was nothing Theo could have done about it. I’m guessing someone said to him ‘or you trade this asshole, or he gets cut’. Bay is not as good as Manny, but he’s pretty good. So I just hope he’ll produce, because, heck, we need him to now. If he gives us his career average of .375 OBP, then I’m pretty happy about this whole thing.
But you’re very much right about the pressure thing. But let’s just wait and see if he’ll get over it. He seems like a cool dude.
It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.
by MerryGoByeBye on Jul 31, 2008 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Seems to me
That the deal wasn’t going to happen without Hansen and Moss, or some other prospect combination. None of us will ever really know how much Manny’s clubhouse presence had been disturbing the team, but just by the FO’s actions alone, it must have been pretty bad. I’m not justifying it or saying it was worth it, but someone apparently thought that having Manny any longer would have resulted in a team-wide collapse (the beginnings of which we may have been seeing), and decided that in order to win this year, they’d have to get something approaching a comparable bat. Bay clearly isn’t Manny Ramirez, but who knows the reasoning behind the deal?
Yeah, it almost sounded
like they had mutiny on their hands if Ramirez stayed. I wonder what’s going through Francona and the players’ minds? Tito will just give you the party line, but I bet he’s relieved, even though we lost a great player.
by ccthemovieman on Jul 31, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not to happy with sending extra players
along with Manny, but if we take all the reports as credible and Manny was not going to play hard bc of the contract situation, well folks we were not going to win the WS this year. Not with a 50% disgruntled Manny.
By getting Jason Bay, at least the Sox got something of value in return.
I would really like to hold judgment on Bay until he starts getting some fastballs from protecting Papi.
Truth is the Sox were never going to re-sign Manny next season, so worst case scenario, we write this year off, go out in the FA market next season and get a bat to protect Papi, a catcher and a replacement for Schilling/Wake and we are in the playoff chase again.
Two words: Yu Darvish….seriously this guy can deal and he will bring in a boat load of $$$$
Yu is incredible
Whether or not he’s posted – or wants to pitch in the States- remains to be seen. I think I remember reading something about him wanting to stay in Japan. That said, Daisuke money or greater can change your mind pretty quick. Also – do we have room for him? Beckett, Lester, Daisuke, Buch (presumably), and Wake (presumably). Wake, Buch, and Lester are very cheap. Darvish would cost more than $100 million to talk to and sign. With Schil and Manny off the books, the Sox will have some spare cash. But I also don’t think Yu will be posted this year.
I think the Sox
will make room. I have been reading a lot about this guy and the rumors are that he will come over for the right price and the right team. His dad has eluded that they love New England. Plus I would believe he is not coming until after the WBC, Japan will have a great chance of repeating with Darvish, Dice-k and Kuroda.
As for the rotation, Wake is probably done, Buchholz needs more time.
Beckett, Lester, Dice-K, Yu would be an insane staff.
Clearing 20 million makes me believe the Sox are in on Teixeira and Yu Darvish.
I don't see why Wake would be done
He’s having a fantastic year.
He can pitch until he's 50
In my perfect world, of couse. :)
It's the same old story. Boy finds girl, boy loses girl, girl finds boy, boy forgets girl, boy remembers girl, girls dies in a tragic blimp accident over the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day.
by MerryGoByeBye on Jul 31, 2008 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Just saying
when you hit 40 things change. My father coached college basketball for 20 years, at 43 at the top of his teams success he quit and moved to Cape Cod and now runs a charter boat for fishing trips.
Totally shocked my family. People change their priorities. Not everyone is Jamie Moyer.
All i am saying is the Sox are most likely not counting on Wake next season.
Not everyone is Jamie Moyer.
HAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! Second great Jamie Moyer line I’ve read today. ESPN page 2 has a bit about Manny hitting a homer off Moyer in 2014,
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
They were going to lose Manny anyway
Manny was already gone; I know Bay is unproven & no one is saying he = Manny but maybe Bay will thrive in Fenway – many guys have come into their own once they go to the Sox.
I’ve been a huge Manny supporter but think he went to far with his Little Boy Blue act- seems he wanted it to seem like leaving was his decision – was bent that his options weren’t picked up by now…I dont recall his past behaviors being this hostile – childish but not angry – his body language was even different . I think he is having off the field issues or just ego trippin’ out bc he did a complete turnaround in a flash – at the beginning of the season he was all Gandhi & Zen then he turned into a hellion.
Maybe the Sox could have made another trade with Moss & Hansen but as posted above maybe they needed to send them to make Manny go away
"You know," Girardi said, shrugging his shoulders, "it didn't work."
( Joe Girardi on pitching to Manny Ramirez with first base open)
I agree with you entirely MassGal
they got something for Manny. The Sox could very well turn around next season, move Bay and Coco for another piece and sign Teixeira or Holliday.
I don't like this trade...
I am more comfortable in suffering with Ramirez and let him get out of his grumpiness..
Basically it should had been a two way trade between Pirates and the Sox, but it is 3:1 trade with all star and future hall of famer, (Ramirez) a starting player (Moss) and a semi mediocre pitcher (Hansen) for Bay. Clearly the Pirates made well with this deal.
If anyone just shot themselves in the foot it is Ramirez, he won’t get $20 million on the free agent market this winter. However, he probably wouldn’t get an option either given some of his recent antics.
I ranked Pirates first in the trade right now, Dodgers second, for not giving up too much or Loney for Ramirez, (They should had peddle A. Jones) and the Red Sox, last, way last. It isn’t Ramirez or Moss, but bullpen help whether mediocre or not, is short to come by… However how the Sox have been playing lately, Management needed to something…
I am just sad that Manny is gone from Boston, the last of Dan Duquette’s acquisitions….
I say this is an interesting deal:
Manny will have a lot to prove. My guess is that he’ll be very careful with the big boys in the LA Front Office. It’d look pretty bad on his part for free agency if he got them mad. Bay also could be interesting. I look forward to seeing how he hits and fields the monster. While it may take him a while for him to adjust, just look at JD. Also, it may be me, but what every happened to that Lefty reliever that Theo was so desperately trying to acquire?
"We're not going to give up," It doesn't happen, so who cares? There's always next year. It's not like it's the end of the world."
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