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Around SBN: Guest Blogger: Juco All-American Answers Five Questions

Red Sox and Indians: What makes a jackass?

This started out as a comment to this post by Randy, talking about my story over at Let's Go Tribe, "It's Official — Sabathia is a Jackass".  I first want to thank Randy for the shout-out and everyone who commented for the supportive words.  In that thread, the question was asked, would the reaction be the same had Sabathia signed with the Red Sox?  I will admit that it's not a simple question, but the simple answer is "no."

From an Indians fan's perspective, at least two key facts still separate the Red Sox and Yankees in the "nemesis" column.  The first is that the Red Sox were pushed into operating like a giant economic powerhouse, while the Yankees were the ones doing the pushing.  As I detailed a few months ago, the Yankees always maintained one of the highest payrolls through the mid-90's, but usually only about 10% higher than the next team.  It was only after 1998 that they took what was already the highest payroll in baseball ... and tripled it ... over the course of just a few years.

The Red Sox, under the old ownership, were a club run with no creativity and a good bit of doltishness by Dan Duquette, but he also spent big money wisely once in a while.  The Red Sox could not afford at that time to double the payroll, so the new ownership decided that the club had to get a lot smarter, both about baseball operations and about maximizing revenues.   By that point, the only other alternative was to cede the AL East to the Yankees, indefinitely.  Whatever my views about the revenue situation, I don't think it's fair or reasonable to say that the Red Sox should have just rolled over rather than responding forcefully, building up a store of economic might and wielding it with great skill.

If it were on the table — if it ever gets to the table — I think the Red Sox management across the board — Henry, Lucchino, Theo and certainly Bill James — would support an economic system that gives all 30 teams a level playing field, whatever that system might be.  I think they have justifiable confidence in their ability to compete without unfair advantages, and I think all those guys love baseball and understand that the game will be better over the course of this century if it's possible to have a great team in a "little big city" like Milwaukee.  I think Henry has basically said this, on the record, more than once.

The Yankees, who have always pushed the envelope to make the system as unfair as possible, probably would oppose any measures along those lines; certainly the elder Steinbrenner has always opposed them bitterly in the past.  So that makes for a key difference.

The second key fact is that we simply haven't had the same rivalry with one another, as both teams have had with the Yankees, even though all three clubs have been in more or less direct competition for over a century. Like Red Sox fans, Indians fans savor the moment of any postseason victory, and like Red Sox fans, victory is just that much sweeter when the Yankees get humiliated in the process.  There was an extra kick with the 1997 ALDS, when we broke Rivera to take it from the Yankees.  It was not remotely the same when we beat the Red Sox in 1998, and that is partly because the Yankees have been shameless in pushing the economic envelope, partly because their fans have always been the most obnoxious (led by their king), partly you're taking something away from the most overpaid players in the game.

(You can't take their paychecks, but you can leave them with nothing else. Oh, the perfect beauty of a stunned, jerkoff-filled Yankee Stadium!  Especially when the Indians have delivered the beat-down, but even when it's someone else.  As a baseball fan, I could never enjoy a Red Sox defeat the way I enjoyed the end of the 2004 ALCS.)

This is mostly a function of the teams' histories.  The Red Sox were a dominant club through the 1910's, edging out the Indians in 1918 for Boston's fourth title in eight years.  But the Indians didn't even get good until 1917, and the Red Sox ducked out after 1918 while the Indians had a nice run through 1921.  The Red Sox next won in 1946, and the Indians weren't a factor.  The Red Sox finished a close second in 1948, when the Indians won their next and most recent championship, but as in 1917, Boston was fading out while the Indians were fading in.  Cleveland played well over .600 ball from 1948 to 1955, probably the greatest period in our history, winning two pennants, but the Red Sox were not a factor in the AL after 1949.

The Red Sox won pennants in 1967 and 1975, but by that point, the Indians were already into their 35-year slump.  Our clubs "competed" in the AL East for 25 seasons, but the Indians never finished higher than 4th. In the Wild Card era, the Indians dominated the late 90's and kept the Red Sox out of the ALCS in two out of three Division Series.  Ironically, the Red Sox may have made for a better matchup with the Yankees in the 1998 ALCS, and the Indians probably would have made a sturdier opponent in a seven-games series in 1999 — we bloodied each other up pretty good in those division series.  It wasn't a sustained rivalry, though, as the Red Sox rightfully were much more focused on the Yankees. The Indians farm system went dry in sync with the economy, pushing them out of the picture as the new Red Sox regime took over and eventually dominated.

Which brings us to the present day.  In a good year like 2007, the Indians are going to provide a strong competitor to any club including the Red Sox, but unlike the Red Sox, the Indians will not have the resources to procure a "good year" more or less every season.  It is unfair, but as I wrote above, their only alternative to spending the way they have was to cede the division completely to the Yankees, and I don't blame them for not doing it.  They didn't create the system, they're not aggravating the situation any more than another half-dozen high-revenue clubs are, and they won't defend the system.

In Cleveland, everyone has always said, oh, Player X, he's going to the Yankees eventually, but usually, he doesn't.  Belle went to the White Sox and eventually the Orioles.  Manny went to the Red Sox, Thome to the Phillies.  We traded Colon to the Expos, who traded him to the White Sox, and eventually the Angels signed him.  Despite the fairly constant obsessing about the Yankees as inevitable destination, this is the first time one of our top guys actually became a Yankee.  It doesn't anger me, but it does irritate me.  I'm sure losing Pedro to the Mets was nowhere near as galling for you guys as Damon crossing the line.  (Not that Boston developed either player, but still.)

When Giambi signed with the Yankees, shaved his beard and said all that mooney-eyed Yankee crap, I said to myself, "That guy is a total jackass."  He wasn't our player, and we never imagined we could sign him — in fact we didn't even need him — but it was simply clear to me that he was a jackass.  When Clemens forced a trade to the Yankees, I said to myself, "That guy is an unbelievable jackass — he wants a championship even if it has to be spoon-fed to him" (which is basically what happened in 1999).  Clemens really amped it up, too, with all those kiss-ass comments about his HOF cap and all the things "Mr. Steinbrenner" had supposedly "allowed" him to accomplish, like winning 300 games.  Damon — jackass.  A-Rod — huge jackass — and I actually like A-Rod, but his Yankee-ification has been the culmination of everything bad and stupid about him.  I'm sure I'm forgetting some major jackasses along the way, but those are the ones that come to mind.

I'm sure most folks thought that my "jackass" article was all bout my being mad about losing Sabathia, but that actually isn't the case.  It is sad to lose him, and it does sting, but this really is about consistency.  I was okay with his leaving, I had accepted it and appreciated his time as an Indian.  But once I saw him in that Yankees cap, saying all that stupid Yankee crap, it hit me — Sabathia doesn't get a free pass.  He's a jackass, just like all those other guys who went to the Yankees and said all that stupid crap.  Well, you've seen the article, I won't repeat it.

Manny was not a jackass for going to the Red Sox — in fact, he actually reached his own personal jackass heights in the way that he left, almost eight years later.  There is just something disgusting about the Yankees that — sorry to break it to you — the Red Sox probably can never match.  You see it in their fans, and that special, grotesque, know-nothing, front-running, we-are-always-the-awesomest odor they have.  When a player not only takes the money, but takes it from the Yankees, and then starts spouting Yankees exceptionalism, he hasn't merely become a mercenary, he's become a Yankees fan at the same time.  Gross.

And I guess maybe that's the bottom line.  Had C.C. signed with the Red Sox, it still would have been mercenary, and it still would have been symptomatic of everything that's wrong with the game economically — but he sure as hell wouldn't have been morphing into a Yankees fan.  Would I have called him a jackass?  I really don't think so.

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Great post. You summed up just about everything everyone (except Yankee fans) should feel. And nice title too.

Well, I will appreciate for you to keep my zingers out of your mouth!

by BoSox415 on Dec 20, 2008 4:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Awesome post

Thank you very much for taking the time to write that up. I think it’s hard for the Indians and Red Sox to hate each other in the last few years because both franchises are run in a very similar way. Red Sox have more money, but it’s pointless, this team was not built around money, and neither were the Indians.

The MFY are a whole different animal. It’s about buying more than building. All the ‘Chamberlain-Hughes-Kennedy’ bs was quickly gone, and replaced by ‘CC+Burnett+Peavy+Wang+Jesus’ after only one year. You do not give up on guys like Hughes after just one bad year, it’s silly. And it’s not only about signing all the FA available, it’s about trading as well. We heard MFY fans saying their new 1Bman would be Adrian motherfucking Gonzalez, and some of them are already anticipating Pujols after 2011. It’s okay to want crazy trades and shit like that, but come the fuck on.

Maybe this is a New York thing, look at the fucking Knicks. That team sucks, but it’s because of crappy FA signing and bad trades looking to win it all. They drafted Robinson, Lee, Chandler and a bunch of others. Still, it seems they could not give a fuck about the team’s good drafts, and only anticipate the arrival of LeBron James. I guess you know this better than me, but look at how the Cavs are better this season playing more team ball, playing D, having more players being able to score on offense and stuff like that. Until last season, you could just call that franchise the ‘Cleveland LeBrons’. So, I guess my point is that money can get you LeBron James, and he’d be awesome. But what would be the fucking point?

It’s not all the NY fans, of course, but most of them.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 20, 2008 6:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

first off

your wrong they didnt give up on hughes or kennedy, they are just giving them time to grow more, so your certainly very wrong there, second, last time i checked the yanks and red sox both had santana in their clutches and decided not to give up prospects and money, and to just wait for free agency, thats why the peavy thing wont happen, second i am so sick of the red sox fans and all the other fans out there that say “bad signings” ok, example one yanks were not the only ones after pavano the sox were in on him too, same thing could have happened in boston if he went there and yes your team is built with money, remember besides the yanks you are in the top 3 of payroll along with the mets, so dont tell me you arent built with money, it just so happens the yanks are an empire and they do have owners that want nothing to do but win, last time i checked wanting to win was not such a bad thing, yes i will admit the spending has gotten crazy but are you going to tel me you wouldnt have signed cc if you could? just like pavano, just like damon sox fans like you are the ones that piss me off, that prolly jumped on the bandwagon after the 04 season . and if you even try to tell me everyone that is a sox fan now has been since the dawn of time .. i will laugh .. i was in florida the weekend they beat the yanks and the cards and i did not see one boston hat in all of universal studios/disney and the poof they won everyone had one .. in closing you are and idiot

again sry sox fans but this guy is an ass, i have no prob with most of you, of course a few though like this guy

by I Bleed Pinstripes on Dec 20, 2008 6:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Time to grow more? Check any MLBTR threads or stuff like that

They wanna give up on Hughes and Kennedy for anything that moves. The rest of your post is remarkably meaningless.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 20, 2008 7:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

MLBTR??

thats a whisper site granted i read it almost everyday .. a lot of that stuff is a joke .. every little whisper is on that site .. or peoples thoughts .. meaningless eh?? o you mean like talking bout the knicks on a red sox blog?? and yes they were about to pull a retarded move for mike cameron and give up melky but where have you heard they were getting rid of hughes?? yea last year they almost gave him/kennedy up for johan but the sox were about to give up bucholz/ellsbury .. so “come the fuck on” man get your shit str8

by I Bleed Pinstripes on Dec 20, 2008 7:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was making a point when I mentioned the Knicks

Perhaps it did come up a bit harsh, but fuck it. The Yanks gave up big contracts to Burnett and CC, that could be read as a big ‘fuck you’ to both Hughes and Kennedy.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 20, 2008 7:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, True

True, True…let a Yankee fan speak intelligently on riding the winning bandwagon.

I mean come on LeBron he has every right to be a Yankee fan bc he grew up in Cleveland when the Indians dominated the AL…

or Bob Costas, how could he be a Yankee fan growing up in St. Louis with ONLY Bob Gibson’s Cardinals to cheer for… I mean poor guy, he HAD to be a Yankee fan.

Or the 1000s of jackass Hollywood people who cannot name another Yankee outside of Jeter and A-rod. See this is not bandwagoning, its Yankee Pride.

P.S. I have a riddle which team pays $243 million dollars and still gets only a bronze? Yankee Pride…

by SoxAcumen on Dec 20, 2008 7:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

your right

i hear ya, i have been a yankee fan since well i can remember my uncle took me to games when i was like younger like 4,5 back before the 95 season so i wasnt used to them winning as far as the bandwaogn i mean your always going to have it, but i had never seen it worse than that year .. all of a sudden everyone was a red sox fan, look root for your team .. well mayb they were just afraid to show who their team was or whatnot i dont know but i never saw anything like it thats all im saying so dont jump down my throat cuz you know im right

here we go with the spending again .. stop hating just because they are willing to spend the money .. im sure if the sox had the money to spend if they had it too .. or had an owner that didnt give up after an hour of negotiating with mark texieira and say “cleary we are not going to be a factor”

as much as i hate to admit it what bandwagon for the yanks is there they have choked since 2000 .. so what bandwagon is any of them jumping on now

p.s – i have a riddle for you what team is the most recognized, most storied, most historic, most winningest team in all of pro sports ? to you thats the “MF” Yankees

by I Bleed Pinstripes on Dec 20, 2008 7:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Burned, IBP.

Well, I will appreciate for you to keep my zingers out of your mouth!

by BoSox415 on Dec 20, 2008 10:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Word.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 20, 2008 10:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That 2008 looks sexy on that banner…almost as sexy as 2009 will look…

by SoxAcumen on Dec 20, 2008 10:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

17 in a row, IIRC.

Well, I will appreciate for you to keep my zingers out of your mouth!

by BoSox415 on Dec 20, 2008 10:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Up to 19...

And then back-to-back losses to the Lakers and GS. Is it a bad thing for me to admit that I’m a pseudo-Lakers fan, solely because of Kobe? The whole “best in the world and I’ll shove it down your throat thing” appeals to me.

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 27, 2008 11:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Basketball = :/

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 20, 2008 11:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

NBA anyways.

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 27, 2008 11:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow!

Flawless victory!

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 20, 2008 11:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Uhh...
here we go with the spending again .. stop hating just because they are willing to spend the money .. im sure if the sox had the money to spend if they had it too .. or had an owner that didnt give up after an hour of negotiating with mark texieira and say "cleary we are not going to be a factor"

Willing to spend the money? Theo, Larry, and John are willing to spend all the money in the world. Our name is usually brought up at the beginning of every Hot Stove season. We may never pull the trigger on alot of the deals, but thats not because we cannot afford them.. it’s because we use brawn through our negotiations. We drive up the price somewhat so we can laugh at teams like the Yanks overpay.

Why do you think John Henry said “We aren’t a factor”. There were two things he could have done after the Teix meeting. Its clear that the meeting was there to get the contract offer on the table, and its now clear that the Sox are probably the highest bid/most desired team on the table. Teix wants to play here, but Boras wants 200 million or whatever the fuck he wants. So our two options were:

1. Let the media know we have backed out so Boras drops his demands a bit lower OR takes his client and signs him where he doesn’t want him to go

2. Placed a 203024032 billion dollar contract offer in Teixeiras hands, much like Cashman and the Steinbrenners would have done.

Our front office plays the game with logic, whereas the Yanks play the “Lets throw our bank account number at the free agent market and see the biggest names we can get!”

I would love to see your retort to this, seeing as I don’t know what you possibly could say

by Charged on Dec 20, 2008 9:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Manchester United?

AC Milan?

=)

As for the bandwagoners, both sides have their “pink hats”…the more the merrier I say.

by SoxAcumen on Dec 20, 2008 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You are a moron

Besides the incorrect baseball information and analysis, your post is absolutely riddled with grammatical errors. You essentially kidnapped the English language, beat it with a sock of quarters, and unloaded an AK-47 clip into its face.

Example: “as much as i hate to admit it what bandwagon for the yanks is there they have choked since 2000..so what bandwagon is any of them jumping on now”. This is something I would expect to read from a 7-year old. Go back to elementary school and then come and post on this site.

by Gnick on Dec 23, 2008 12:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Florida's Second-rate University fan?

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 27, 2008 11:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

bad example with

the knicks. are you sure you want to talk about hired guns and basketball?

by tombradylikesdudes on Dec 23, 2008 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Yep, I enjoyed that too…

by CelticPride on Dec 20, 2008 6:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The best part is: look at the tags at the bottom of the post :) Classic.

by Randy Booth on Dec 20, 2008 7:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Jackassery

I think I took that in college, it was required Freshman year…

by SoxAcumen on Dec 20, 2008 7:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Seems to be taught in elementary school now.

I must have been sick that day…

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 27, 2008 11:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Glad you liked them. In case you’re curious, the one that starts “self-entitled pig…” is what I use for any post that mentions any Steinbrenner. “All-time great douchebags” is for any Clemens reference, and “disgusting yankee filth” is of course for Yankees fans.

by Jay on Dec 21, 2008 3:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's better to mock the Yankees

and their most unreasonable / ardent / illogical supporters, rather than calling them names or hating them.

I’m not an Indians fan, and I clearly don’t feel the pain of losing him like they do. However, it strikes me as a little unfair to criticize C.C. for signing with the Yankees. Sabathia deserves a massive, long-term contract – he has been one of the best young pitchers in recent memory. I didn’t want the Sox to sign him, since our pitching is already solid, and I believe he’s an injury risk (>500 innings in the last two years), but I believe he deserved his payday. Based on his exemplary performances, he’s worth upwards of $20 million a year. And he’s certainly young enough to warrant a long contract.

The Angels and Mets weren’t interested, the Tigers were cutting payroll. The Red Sox weren’t really interested. Milwaukee’s offer wasn’t quite good enough, and the Indians don’t have the payroll to afford him. So Sabathia to the Yankees makes sense.

Should Sabathia accept significantly less than he’s worth in order to say that he doesn’t play for the Yankees? Would you accept significantly less money to do the same job for an employer that strangers prefer?

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Dec 20, 2008 9:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

+1

Well, I will appreciate for you to keep my zingers out of your mouth!

by BoSox415 on Dec 20, 2008 10:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He definitely deserves the contract he’s getting.

A few Brewers fans (me included) are a bit put out by the statements he’s made since signing the contract. There are ways to say you’re happy with the team you’ve signed with that won’t tick off the fans of the team you’ve left (too much) and he wasn’t saying them.

by morineko on Dec 20, 2008 10:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

CC

should do what makes him happy. If making 140 million makes him happy, great. If playing on the west coast for 125 million is what he wants, that’s great too.

Being a SoCalifornian myself, it would take a significantly larger offer for me to leave my job to go to the east coast.

CC seemed very happy and content in Milwaukee. I wonder if he will feel the same about playing in NY.

by SoxAcumen on Dec 20, 2008 10:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I expect him to get the A-Rod treatment.

Especially if he continues to fail in the playoffs. As the highest-paid pitcher in the game, Sabathia has a lot to prove, at least to a newspaper columnist with space to fill and controversy to stir.

I don’t know how Sabathia reacts to pressure, but if New Yorkers decide to go after him, he could have a tough time there. On the other hand, maybe he’ll be welcomed with open arms, and never really be disliked.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Dec 20, 2008 10:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Longer than five years is too long.

The Brewers’ offer (5 years, $100 million) was probably closer to what he would actually produce. We don’t have all the details of behind the scenes offers (i.e. there may have been another 6 or 7 year offer out there), but I’m guessing the Yankees overbid because they wanted to force Sabathia to come to New York. For them, money is a much less precious resource, and they could also take this contract to the New York media and say, “Hey, we the owners / management are intent on getting back into the playoffs – look at all the cash we spent on CC.” That’s probably reassuring to many casual fans, although I’m not sure if the Yankees value such PR.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Dec 21, 2008 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There were no reports of anyone offering a guaranteed sixth year, and given how the deal went down, there’s no real reason to think anyone did or would have. The Brewers reportedly were going to offer a vesting option on a sixth year, but a vesting option for a sixth year on a pitcher contract is far, far from a guarantee, given the attrition rates for even the best and most durable pitchers. It’s also the opposite of an opt-out, in that it’s highly team-friendly.

by Jay on Dec 21, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For them, money is a much less precious resource

That’s kind of the whole point of Jay’s position on this. That’s a clear sign of the competitive imbalance among the teams. The Yankees can bury mistakes that would bury other teams from a financial standpoint – (Pavano and Irabu are two easy examples of this). When they want a player, they don’t compete for him on the open market, they blow everyone out of the water and overpay, like a bully in the schoolyard. That’s what’s wrong with baseball.

What makes the players who go there jackasses is their spouting dreck about the greatness of the organization, how everyone wants to be a Yankee and getting chills putting on the cap. If you read the comments to Jay’s post at LGT, you’ll see that I defended CC at the beginning, but as I read CC’s words more closely, I saw how he became a jackass. Burnett came close to avoiding jackass-dom, admitting that the money was a factor, but he lost it when he claimed everyone wants to be a Yankee.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Dec 22, 2008 10:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If being a Yankee means making twice as much

with way more job security (frequent no trade contracts), I think most working people DO want to be Yankees. The talk of history, tradition, and the Church of Latter Day True Yankees, is silly, but not jackassed, at least to me.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Dec 22, 2008 6:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

this discussion about

what a player deserves is f-ing ridiculous. NO ONE should be payed millions to throw or hit a damn baseball. teachers and firefighters add more value to a community than an athlete. you have a problem with cc or arod or tex making more than 20 mil a year? fine. i have a problem with joe schmoe #40 on the 40-man roster making $400,000. the league minimum is sickening.

however, from an economics standpoint, it’s not the teams that give out the huge 20mil/year for 5+ years that are the problem. their raising the “ceiling.” it’s the dumb owners that give carlos silva and adam eaton 12 mil/year to suck. that way anyone with a 6.5 era over 150 innings wants 12 milion. raiding the “floor” hurts everyone.

by tombradylikesdudes on Dec 23, 2008 1:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That is a separate problem, the market will self-correct on that, because it affects every team equally.

THat has nothing to do with the problem where the system allows large-market teams essentially to buy playoff spots, and the Yankees far moreso than even the other teams.

by Jay on Dec 23, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good organizations

don’t need to worry about the Yankees buying playoff spots. Good organizations like the Patriots and Red Sox correctly evaluate their talent and rarely overpay for players on the decline.

Baseball is God's sport! All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident. kinesiologist

by E5 on Dec 23, 2008 10:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Patriots don’t need to worry about a team buying a playoff spot because their league has a salary cap.

The Red Sox absolutely have to worry about it. Because they are competing with a club that is willing to outspend every other team by up to $100 million, they have to drive revenues to fund a top-three budget every year, and they have to execute almost every element of player acquisition and development almost perfectly. Which they have.

by Jay on Dec 24, 2008 10:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A lot of people make even more to do even less...

A hedge fund manager one year made over a billion dollars. Those guys make A-Rod’s salary look like peanuts. And they provide even less than a baseball player to society. They produce absolutely nothing (many of the financiers have clearly hurt everybody else in the last few months.) Baseball players on the other hand are the foundation of an industry that provides immense enjoyment to millions of people, not to mention jobs for all of the people who report on baseball, who work at stadiums, who work at/own bars that show the games, who build the stadiums and so on. And yes being a teacher or firefighter contributes more to society, but these people are highly replaceable. A huge percentage or Americans could do either if they wished. But there is only one A-Rod and thats why he gets paid.

by BTLove on Dec 25, 2008 12:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

People refuse offers with higher salaries in other professions all the time for a number of reasons.

by Gnick on Dec 23, 2008 1:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Jay's point

was that signing for the money is not what makes him a jackass. What makes him a jackass is all of the “I had to go to the Yankees because that is the dream of all baseball players, and is what gives me the best chance to win…blah…blah.” I think this is a bit silly. If you want to think the game is broken, that is fine. But we all understand that it is a business, and that most players go for the money. A bit of dishonesty as to why one signs the contract for the PR photoshoot is not really a big deal. What should he say, “I really wanted to play in SF, but the Yanks came through with the big bucks”?

by Buzzy on Dec 21, 2008 7:29 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Actually … the minute he signs with the Yankees, accepting the “Yankee penalty” money, he’s already a jackass.

Look, there are all kinds of situations that arise in the lives of successful people, where they can either go with the non-financial priorities that they have always held dear … or they can just take the highest offer, compromising on everything else. Let’s say I’m running a really cool little record label — it’s got some industry cache, critical darling, money-making machine — the works. I’m already rich, with $30 million in the bank and a valuable record label that folks are dying to buy.

The only question is, how rich am I going to be? I can sign a lucrative distribution deal for $100 million … OR … I can let Sony buy the label outright for $160 million, keeping me on as president, only now I’m working for them, tasked with worrying about corporate synergies, etc. The essential vision of my label is going to get lost, bit by bit, until five years from now, I won’t even be interested in my own label anymore.

Now, there’s nothing wrong with taking the higher offer, and there’s always some guy who will say that I’d be “crazy” not to take the extra $60 million, on top of the $130 million that I’m already worth no matter what I decide to do. Is it crazy? No, of course not — it’s just a question of priorities. All of my colleagues and partners, all my artists (teammates) and their fans would rather that I don’t sell completely. I could keep my label, still be incredibly wealthy, and attempt to build, sustain, and grow the label into something that makes a major impact on the music industry over a couple of decades. Or, I could let the label become another faceless corporate asset and pocket some extra cash.

So I’m choosing rich or richer … but if I take the extra cash, that kind of makes me a jackass, because I’m saying that that extra cash is worth trading in everything else I’ve been trying to build, ditching many (not all, but many) of the principles I’ve been building around. So the choice is essentially, be a very rich and very cool guy … or be an even richer guy who is kind of a jackass. And I’m saying, a lot of people in life face these situations, where they can be happy and very comfortable with what they’ve achieved and keep doing what they’ve been doing on their own terms … or they can accept someone else’s terms, for the maximum payout.

If Sabathia was sick of playing for clubs like Cleveland or Milwaukee, or didn’t want to play in California and/or in the NL, then it would be a different story. But we know that that isn’t the case.

If players really wanted to go to the Yankees, then you would occasionally see a player take less money to go there. How sold was Sabathia on playing for them? The Yankees initially outbid everyone by $40 million, and C.C. didn’t accept that offer. We don’t know that he ever received an offer over $100 million from any other club (although he would have eventually). He didn’t go there until their bid was $61 million over his next highest official offer.

And then, suddenly: “There really was no other place to go.” He just sits there and blatantly lies to everyone, possibly even to himself. Had a half-dozen other teams bid $140 million, he’d be with one of those teams. He is with the Yankees only for the money — but we knew that already. Taking the money from the Yankees — making himself into Exhibit A in the corruption of the game — already makes him a jackass. His public statements just confirm it.

by Jay on Dec 21, 2008 12:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

jay

 (yankees suck) short and to the point

by Red Sox #1 Fan on Dec 21, 2008 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Are we sure that the whole thing wasn't a negotiating tactic?

He was constantly saying (or spreading word through the media) that he would rather play on the west coast. This can be translated economically into “it will take more money for me to play in NY.” If you were looking to drive up your price, when there was no one to bid against the Yanks, this seems like the perfect strategy.

Now, I agree all the PR shit is stupid. He doesn’t mean any of what he was saying. But I would not be surprised if the whole time he was perfectly happy to play in NY. I mean $60 mil is a lot of money. And yes, that $60 mil is not worth marginally as much as the first $60 mil, but who are we to say he won’t put it to good use. That now he can support his entire extended family and friends for life if he so chooses. I mean, I’d rather have that money in the hands of CC than some owner who is worth a billion.

by BTLove on Dec 21, 2008 11:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You’re conversing with a guy who followed every word that Sabathia uttered publicly for the past 3-4 years, and every word that he was reported by friends to be saying in private. There were plenty of indications and reports that he did not want to go there, and not one report in all that time that suggested he would want to go there or even was specifically open to it. If it was a strategy, it was executed with absolutely perfect precision for more than three years solid.

by Jay on Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe that’s a little far-fetched. Either way, I can never blame a guy for taking more money. Thats just how shit goes.

by BTLove on Dec 22, 2008 12:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't the MLBPA had a say on this as well?

I heard some stuff of them ‘forcing’ Sabathia to take the higher offer. I think it’s bullshit, but you never know.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 22, 2008 12:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There were rumors that they wanted to pressure him to go to NY, but ultimately the player has the final say and there is nothing they can do about it.

by Gnick on Dec 23, 2008 1:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Right answer. It drives me nuts the way people imagine the union has any real authority over a top free agent. They basically can call him and say “pretty-please,” and they can ask him baseball buddies to give him crap about it, but that’s about it.

by Jay on Dec 23, 2008 1:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Economics

Seriously, with everyone complaining about the current state of the economy in this country, why don’t we look at the Yankees as a problem. They keep going out and spending ridiculous amounts of money on players, treating it like its chump change. This is just another reason why the Yankees suck!!

ps- great post

by Celtics1990 on Dec 21, 2008 3:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

actually,

it’s incredibly fiscally responsible today for people who have money to actually spend it. considering the credit crisis and insane debt this country is in, it would suck more if all of a sudden, richer people cut spending as well. our consumer economy as we know it would collapse, dropping further into the red.

by tombradylikesdudes on Dec 23, 2008 1:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This is a fantastic post. Kudos.

by matzushocka45 on Dec 22, 2008 11:41 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I am a Rays fan and former Indians fan

I still make googley eyes at the Indians. I respect the Red Sox a lot but I must say my heart was torn out in 2007 in 7 games as an Indian fan and well in 2008 as a Rays fan I was at game 1 and game 7 of the ALCS.

Boston is a first class organization and, all of us AL team fans have something in common. We want to make the Yankees go broke with no championships to show for it.

Never mind Captain Cheeseburger. He will report to camp 40 lbs over weight. I am sure he broke out in a sweat lifting the pen to sign the contract.

In the first month he will get rocked in NY. With reporting to camp over weight every year it takes him all of spring training and the first month of the year to get in decent game play shape to where he can finally bend his back again. When he cant bend his back the ball gets left up in the zone and as we all, as astute baseball fans know, that means bye bye, and a first class ticket to the showers. The media is heavy in New York, Mr. Hankey will rip him the first month of the season and I am not sure he can take that.

Just Remember CC heavy is the head that wears the Crown …. wait a minute the Yankees haven’t won a crown in 8 years now. Well this is a first …. Heavy is the head that stuffs in cheeseburgers by the fist full.

OMG … I cant wait for pitchers and catchers to report.

by PewterPirate55 on Dec 25, 2008 11:17 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Brings the Lolz

HOW DARE A PLAYER LIKE THE TEAM THAT HE PLAYS FOR!!

by Omar Little on Dec 27, 2008 2:26 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

For the comics fan-boys (of which I am one):

Yankees = Anti-Life Equation

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 31, 2008 6:03 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Or

Yankees = Brotherhood of Evil Mutants

by DirtySouthSox on Jan 1, 2009 11:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Evil, certainly...

…but the Brotherhood was alway more of a collection of individuals. And had Magneto, who is totally badass.

The Yankees would be more like some jerkhole collection of soulless stormtroopers. Maybe Ultron and a collection of other Ultrons.

BTW (concerning baseball, I know), I find that I can root against Robodouche and A.J. immediately, but think I’ll need to see CC in pinstripes before I can really start to hate him. The guy was a stud and a warrior for Cleveland and for Milwaukee (particularly considering his impending free agency), and totally didn’t want to play for the Yankees. They backed a dumptruck full of money up to his house! He’s only human…

Or he was, until he signed with the MFY.

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 9, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Now he's just a stormtrooper.

Nazi stormtrooper or a Star Wars stormtrooper? You decide.

The rhythm is the bass and the bass is the treble

by DirtySouthSox on Jan 11, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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