How to resolve the catching situation
by Randy Booth
on Nov 11, 2008 12:25 PM EST
in News
Okay. I think I know how to resolve the catching situation. Bear with me, though, because I don't think many of you will agree.
The Red Sox need to trade for Rangers catcher Jarrod Saltalamacchia.
Alright, so start typing up your comments now, but just hear me out. There are a couple of factors at play here but there are two that I think are really important:
- He would die to be a Boston Red Sox. Don't believe me? He even said that.
- He would actually like to be a backup catcher behind Jason Varitek for a year or even two. Don't believe me? Well, you obviously didn't click that link at the end of No. 1.
Now you say: "But Randy, his numbers have pretty much sucked in the big leagues so far." Well, touche -- for the most part. But, as every scout will tell you, Saltalamacchia has a lot of potential that just hasn't been tapped into yet. What do you think a year -- or even a half year -- behind Varitek would do? I think that might kick up his spirits and allow him to really break out.
There's only one catch here: the Sox would need to re-sign Varitek. The Herald says Varitek badly wants to stay in Boston. It makes sense, of course, because he has said in the past how great it is to play here. However, there are some that think Varitek (or agent Scott Boras) is going to want big money. Big money. In the range of 4 years/$53M.
Um. No.
Perhaps Varitek will give a really, really good hometown discount. If the Sox could re-sign him for two years, I think they'll be in a great position. Then the Sox could trade for Saltalamacchia (the Rangers will want to drain the Sox's farm system, of course) and have Varitek just train Salty to be the future. I see Salty taking over full-time in less than a year -- once he learns the Way of the Varitek.
Ok. Lay into me...
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I think if we pass on Tek just for a bit until Boras tries shopping those numbers around and comes back down to earth after he admits to himself that no one is that dumb, then we should be able to get tek for less then this ridiculous $53M. Kind of like when he tried to sell us on signing Chan Ho Park as out closer when we signed Dice-K, and we were just like “ummmmm….no”
by Realistic on Nov 11, 2008 12:46 PM EST 0 recs
Salty is young, have a shitload of potential and a great bat
However, I think I could steal a base against him…
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Nov 11, 2008 12:50 PM EST 0 recs
Teagarden is purported to have more potential both ways.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
by SoxDevil on
Nov 12, 2008 1:34 PM EST
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Randy, in my professional opinion,
this thought appears to be a moment of lucidity, rather than a symptom of madness. Clearly the electroshock treatments are having the desired effect. (Just kidding.)
One of the best thing about Saltalamacchia is that you can platoon him very effectively with Tek. Each one of them has a distinctive split, and together they are complementary.
2008 Salty against RH: .311 / .426 / .451 (148 PA)
Career Salty against RH: .298 / .373 / .457
2008 Varitek against LH: .284 / .378 / .484
Career Tek against LH: .284 / .362 / .468
Of course, with Cash also in the stable, it might make sense to jettison Tek entirely. I’m definitely offering him arbitration, but this is one circumstance where I wouldn’t be unhappy if he accepted.
We’d need “Salty Rules” of course. Except unlike the Joba rules, the Salty rules would have him playing as much as possible, and Varitek as little as possible. I worry that Tito would give Tek way too much playing time, given his limited skill set at this point.
Also, Varitek needs to accept a 1-year deal if he wants to stay in Boston. No to 2-years. If he wants to stay, 1-year, $4 million is all he deserves. If some other teams wants to give him two or three years, more power to them, and more draft picks to us!
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
by 0157H7 on Nov 11, 2008 1:31 PM EST 0 recs
Salty can also play 1B sometimes, as he did with the Rangers
Send Youk to 3B for a day every 8-10 games or so to give Lowell a rest and you can get Salty into a few more games when he isn’t catching.
by RSNexile on
Nov 12, 2008 9:45 AM EST
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Assuming we fail at signing that big free agent...
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on
Nov 12, 2008 4:46 PM EST
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Realistically...
…what do you see the BoSox being willing to part with for Saltalamacchia?
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 11, 2008 1:35 PM EST 0 recs
Someone like Bowden+ another decent prospect. Someone like Ryan Kalish, maybe.
I would be surprised if Masterson or Buchholz were on the table.
"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"
by britsoxfan on
Nov 11, 2008 2:11 PM EST
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If you're still there,
what would you consider a fair deal?
"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"
by britsoxfan on
Nov 11, 2008 2:12 PM EST
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Masterson is untouchable at this point. The front office loves him way too much.
by Randy Booth on
Nov 11, 2008 2:54 PM EST
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More so than Buchholz?
I’d love to see a Saltalamacchia plus something for Buchholz deal, but I the “plus something” would have to be huge, I’m thinking, for Boston to do that.
by Adam J. Morris on
Nov 11, 2008 2:55 PM EST
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Comparing ‘08 seasons, Masterson raised his value while Buchh lost some points. Buchholz is still very valuable, but I the Red Sox FO loves Masterson’s versatility.
by Randy Booth on
Nov 11, 2008 2:57 PM EST
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They love Masterson's toughness
No offense to Buchholz, he could be great, but Masterson has just shown T. Francona, the front office and the team that he wont break in the playoffs.
Right now they have 3 reliable pitchers in the bullpen for the playoffs with Okie, Masterson and Paps.
by SoxAcumen on
Nov 11, 2008 3:05 PM EST
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I believe he said
“reliable.”
Delcarmen’s line in the postseason:
8.2 IP, 11 H, 11 ER, 8 BB, 8 K
‘Good’ for an 11.42 ERA.
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
by 0157H7 on
Nov 11, 2008 3:30 PM EST
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If you're going by post-season numbers
Dice-K sucks. Maybe we should move him too. :-)
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on
Nov 11, 2008 3:32 PM EST
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Correction
Sorry, I forgot about MDC. I like him alot, he is a Pedro disciple. My point was only that Masterson is far more valuable to the Red Sox in the pen being a setup guy/Ryan Madson type for Paps.
I love Dice-K, but I was talking about the bullpen and how important it is for the playoffs. No disrespect intended to some of the other pitchers on the staff.
My jab was more at Lopez, Timlin, etc..
by SoxAcumen on
Nov 11, 2008 4:29 PM EST
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And didn’t most of that come out of one shellacking?
by Randy Booth on
Nov 11, 2008 3:34 PM EST
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The numbers I posted are from two postseasons, 2007 and 2008. He’s pitched 3.2 scoreless ALDS innings, but has been absolutely shelled in ALCSs. Against the Indians he gave up 3 runs (1.2 IP), and 7 against the Rays (2 IP).
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
by 0157H7 on
Nov 11, 2008 4:56 PM EST
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Yes
Materson is untouchable, as is Ellsbury and Lowrie.
Buchholz or Bowden will be the guy traded. Masterson is too important to the Sox bullpen which to be kind, has a few holes to fill.
by SoxAcumen on
Nov 11, 2008 2:58 PM EST
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I still think the Sox like Bucholz
I don’t think they’ve given up on this guy yet, and I’m pretty sure they value a guy they think can be a top of the rotation starter over a bullpen pitcher.
Either way, I’m not entirely sold on Salty. I wouldn’t give up either guy. Maybe stick to Bowden or Bard, but that probably wouldn’t get it done.
by BTLove on
Nov 11, 2008 4:31 PM EST
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I would only move Buchholz
if its for Teagarden. If its Salty, I agree with you, trade one of the other pitchers in our system.
by SoxAcumen on
Nov 11, 2008 4:33 PM EST
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I'd trade Lowrie for Teagarden
I think Lowrie will be a solid, yet unspectacular major leaguer.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
by SoxDevil on
Nov 12, 2008 1:38 PM EST
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+1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on
Nov 12, 2008 1:52 PM EST
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I will take solid yet unspectacular at SS
for the next three or four years. I want Teagarden most of the Texas catchers, but I’d much rather a deal were structured around Bowden.
"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"
by britsoxfan on
Nov 12, 2008 3:17 PM EST
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Texas doesn't need that.
They have Michael Young!!!
Decide if that’s sarcasm or not.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on
Nov 12, 2008 4:47 PM EST
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Not sarcasm
Michael Young is pretty solid, and there’s no way the Rangers would give up Teagarden for Lowrie. I think they value T higher than Salty at this point but I could be wrong.
by Schulz on
Nov 12, 2008 5:06 PM EST
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They've said as much
I think Teagarden will have a higher price tag. He’s a much more well-rounded player.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
by SoxDevil on
Nov 13, 2008 12:23 PM EST
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Keith Law on Buchholz, Bowden, etc ...
Here are two excerpts from Law’s ESPN chat today (11/14):
eric(lakeville): would it really take more than a package of bowden and bard for teargarden? Is just buchholz enough?
Keith Law: (2:23 PM ET ) I imagine the Rangers would take either offer. Not sure if the Red Sox would do either one, though. They’ve hesitated on Buchholz, for good reason, and they either love Bowden or they’ve done a nice job of boosting his value via hype.
and …
Brendan (Rathmines, Ireland): Should the Sox deal Clay Buchholz now, even with his value diminished with the terrible season, or retain him and hope he recovers some? I know that was the thinking on Craig Hansen…
Keith Law: (2:18 PM ET ) I think they’d be selling low on Buchholz. He’s not Hansen. Better delivery, better secondary stuff.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on
Nov 14, 2008 2:35 PM EST
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Actually, Masterson +
Maybe Masterson and Delcarmen for Saltalamacchia and something else
by Adam J. Morris on
Nov 11, 2008 2:55 PM EST
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way too much
Salty is not worth MLB players, he is worth prospects.
by SoxAcumen on
Nov 11, 2008 3:07 PM EST
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Maybe Kris Johnson, Ryan Kalish and another arm?
by Randy Booth on
Nov 11, 2008 2:58 PM EST
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If we could trade Pauley and Kalish for Salty, we should just start walking on water…
by Randy Booth on
Nov 11, 2008 3:35 PM EST
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Pauley has no value.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on
Nov 11, 2008 3:35 PM EST
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See, I don’t agree with that. Yes, he’s not a true ‘prospect’ any more, but where do you think he’d slot in with the Rangers system? He’d be in their starting rotation. No doubt in my mind. That means he has to have some type of value.
by Randy Booth on
Nov 11, 2008 3:36 PM EST
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In Texas, he'd be the #7 starter
:-)
Seriously, though, Pauley isn’t very good.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on
Nov 11, 2008 3:37 PM EST
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He spot started for us
and we have one of the best rotations in the Majors, while the Rangers have one of the worst. He is not a front of the rotation guy like Buch or Bowden but he would be a nice #4 starter
by drabidea on
Nov 11, 2008 3:40 PM EST
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He played in 9 games (5 starts)
in 2006 and 2008, due to injuries. He absolutely stunk: 9.53 ERA 2.29 WHIP 17.15 H/9. In no way was Pauley ever a serious option or the first guy called up to spot-start. Pauley, at best, is a #6 guy on a bad rotation (sort of like Fossum).
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on
Nov 11, 2008 3:45 PM EST
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If only
all major league teams based talent on 9 games.
by drabidea on
Nov 11, 2008 3:49 PM EST
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His minor league numbers are nothing special
In 987 innings, he has a 3.91 career ERA 1.34 WHIP.
Here are the career minor league stats of other fringe pitchers:
Zink – (892 IP) 4.05 ERA 1.41 WHIP
Hansack – (552.2 IP) 3.80 ERA 1.23 WHIP
Of the three, Hansack has the best K-rate (8.08/9). All have similar HR rates, and Zink walks the most. Hansack, a non-prospect, is probably the best of the three—and Pauley isn’t noticeably better than Zink, who isn’t really major league material.
Incidentally, Casey Fossum, a bad major league pitcher, was much better in the minors than Pauley. Here are Fossum’s career minor league stats:
(397.2 IP) 3.13 ERA 1.20 WHIP 9.27 K/9 0.45 HR/9
Just about every team has two or three David Pauleys in their system.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on
Nov 11, 2008 4:10 PM EST
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No way Pauley could get it done
We would need to give them someone who has a chance of being a good major leaguer.
by BTLove on
Nov 11, 2008 4:35 PM EST
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Agreed on pretty much everything
Pauley sucks, really. His stuff is actually funny.
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on
Nov 12, 2008 10:50 AM EST
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The backstop
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on
Nov 11, 2008 1:50 PM EST
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Logically.
Rec’d.
Although, I think that I know of three others who would like a chance. Opposing bats, the wind, and the ground.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on
Nov 11, 2008 5:02 PM EST
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Still Cash
We carry three catchers for the time being. In a 5-start rotation, Tek catches 2-3, Salty catches 1-2, Cash catches 1 (Wake). It’s pretty obvious that Varitek can’t catch 4 out of 5 games. A couple extra games of rest will give him some rest and likely bring about some improvements in his game.
I think this is the best possible scenario
by Schulz on
Nov 11, 2008 5:35 PM EST
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3 catchers is too much...
Carrying 3 catchers in the playoffs is one thing because you don’t need as many pitchers, but carrying 3 all season long would really limit our bench. If we get Salty, and keep Tek, one of them has to man up and catch the knuckle. If Tek is only catching 2 of every 5 games, he should be able to handle one of them being Wake (though that may be a waste of his “game-calling” abilities.)
by BTLove on
Nov 11, 2008 6:16 PM EST
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True, but then we wouldn’t have to carry a Sean Casey type to spell Youk/Lowell because Salty could play 1st, so that works itself out
by Realistic on
Nov 12, 2008 10:06 AM EST
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I like it
Salty is versitile enough that he can play 1st base. That gives us the option of giving him more at bats if he needs it with out the pressure of being catcher.
by drabidea on
Nov 12, 2008 10:07 AM EST
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Exactly
He becomes our backup 1B in addition to being a C platoon. So if we have a 4-player bench its Cash, Saltamalaccia, Cora/infielder, Crisp/outfielder.
by Schulz on
Nov 12, 2008 12:12 PM EST
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Enough pop off the bench?
I was hoping this season we’d have somebody that can pinch hit, especially if we give Varitek any at bats. I think Salty as a hitter at 1B is barely replacement level. I just don’t like the idea that when Lowell gets hurt we’re playing 2 catchers. It would also eliminate any chance of bringing in Baldelli since he can’t be our only backup OFer.
We shouldn’t construct our roster around Tim Wakefield. Its just stupid.
by BTLove on
Nov 12, 2008 1:32 PM EST
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If Lowell goes on the DL
Bring up Bailey, Carter, or even Lars if he is ready.
Salty would only be used as a day off guy for Lowell or Youk, not for an extended period.
by drabidea on
Nov 12, 2008 1:43 PM EST
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Totally agree with BTLove
The Sox need to strengthen the bench. A power bat, preferably a right-handed hitter, would be nice. Salty isn’t a good enough hitter at 1B or DH, his two most likely positions.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on
Nov 12, 2008 1:55 PM EST
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Agreed on strengthing the bench
but I don’t think 1B is needed as much as a utility middle infielder is. Cora has aged and lost a step, Lugo can’t really be trusted with a baseball.
Lets not forget that Salty has a career minors OBP of .370 and OPS of .830. It is pretty apparent that he will be atleast league average, if not better. If for some reason he isn’t hitting at league average, you can always slide Lowrie over to 3rd and let the utility middle infielder get some swings in.
by drabidea on
Nov 12, 2008 2:46 PM EST
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True
That is why I didn’t leave Cora and Crisp as the only possibilities for their respective positions. In fact, I don’t think either one will be with us come opening day. Cora is a FA, and the Sox will likely let him walk. I’m thinking Crisp will be traded to the White Sox, and be the speedy, CF, leadoff man with good D they’ve been looking for. Hopefully the return package would include Nick Swisher?
I’ve suggested a scenario like this one on another fanpost. Under this scenario, our bench would be Swisher (OF, 1B, DH); Cash ©; Salty (C, 1B); Lugo/Lowrie (3B, SS, 2B).
by Schulz on
Nov 12, 2008 5:13 PM EST
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I like this idea...
but the only thing that gives me pause is his defense in centerfield. He’s ok, but not great (RZR of .904 in ’08 and .878 in ’07), but would Tito feel comfortable with a big, slowish centerfielder? (I guess we put Wily Mo out there, so that answers that question.)
Its probably not much of an issue, because if someone does go on the DL we would immediately shuffle things around (like drabidea said) and bring up an extra OF or 1b. Even if someone is kinda injured (but not on the DL), we would send Cash down right away and bring up a useful player. So either way, we are going to need one of our top 2 catchers able to catch Wake.
by BTLove on
Nov 12, 2008 5:41 PM EST
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He doesn't have to play CF...
He could spell Bay in LF. How’s his arm? He could play RF if it’s strong enough.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on
Nov 12, 2008 5:50 PM EST
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Cash has a copyright on his name?
Holy shit! Sorry Cash! Dammit, I did it again! How much do we owe… him?
Joking, I know that ( + C + ) = © in HTML
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on
Nov 12, 2008 5:49 PM EST
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Haha
yea, i saw that after i posted. I was gonna do something about it but i thought it looked cool
by Schulz on
Nov 12, 2008 6:48 PM EST
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We should start calling him:
Cash © Money ™
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on
Nov 12, 2008 7:42 PM EST
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Not a fan of Salty
He appears to be a decent hitter who can’t catch. In my opinion, unless you hit like Mike Piazza did (or Posada), you are pretty useless as a catcher if you are below average defensively.
Salty is a project player, who may need a year or so in the minors to learn his craft. I’m not willing to trade a Bowden, Masterson, Ellsbury, or Buchholz for a player who may never be adequate behind the plate. The Sox don’t need a 1B/DH—and I’m not sure Salty hits sell enough to be a 1B/DH
As for Tek, bring him back if he’ll sign an inexpensive 1-2 year contract ($6 million or less). After the last 2.5 years he deserves a pay cut.
The problem with a Tek/Cash platoon is it has absolutely no upside. I’m intrigued by Dusty Brown, a very good defensive catcher who hit .290 AVG/.377 OBP/.471 SLG in Pawtucket last year. He is 26-years old, when most catchers begin their prime. His numbers compare with those of Kelly Shoppach, who would probably start on the Sox right now. A Brown/Tek platoon (assuming one could catch Wake) wouldn’t cost the Sox anything; it might be better than a Salty/Tek platoon, at least in the short-term; and it buys time for Luis Exposito, the Sox’ top catching prospect (currently in high A).
I’m not a big Varitek fan. But the Sox can still win with his anemic bat. Last year Boston was second in run-scoring, despite Tek’s bat and injuries to Papi, Lowell, and Drew.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Nov 11, 2008 1:48 PM EST 0 recs
+1
Agree completely. Unless they’ll give up Salty real cheap, let’s give Brown a shot.
by BTLove on
Nov 11, 2008 4:46 PM EST
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Agreed
I would not be willing to give up Bowden, Masterson, or Buchholz for Salty.
Agree on Tek only sign him back for 2 years at most and 6 mil per at most.
Even if we Trade for Salty I would love to see Brown get some action. He seems ready to me as well, I don’t know why Theo, Tito and company don’t have the confidence in him yet.
by drabidea on
Nov 12, 2008 10:18 AM EST
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Would this be a Garciaparra-type thing
That if he does come to Boston, then every kid would learn how to spell his name? Same with Teixeira.
Anyway, yes, trade for him, sending… who? Cash, money? Cash, the catcher? Tek will be lucky to get a double-digit contracts in terms of money. 53 million is ridiculous.
Well, I'll appreciate for you to keep my zingers outta your mouth!