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One thing that cost the Sox a WS ring

Was Manny being traded. Jason Bay is a nice hitter and all and is for sure a more complete baseball player and in the long run will be of great value to the Red Sox but not having Manny in the lineup that was really struggling minus a miracle and some good fortune. I am not going to lie I am all for Manny being Manny and I blame Boris more for Manny being an arrogant, club house cancer. I think the Red Sox need to seriously acquire a big time bat this off season and I know this is taboo but I am sick of all this keep Varitek because he is so good for the staff b.s. Pitchers are paid to win games and sure Varitek has some influence on that but when a guy is hitting .220 his value as a catcher (with a poor arm) is minimal at best. I am not sure there are better options but if there is send VTek to the curb.

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I disagree on Manny.

He’s a good hitter, but he wouldn’t have performed as well in Boston as he did in L.A. Reasons:
1) Manny was pissed at the FO. I’m not sure he would have settled down and started hitting well again.
2) The NL has worse pitching than the AL, and Manny feasted on it. There was no way he was going to hit .396 / .489 / .743 in 53 games with the Sox. We don’t play in the NL Worst division.

Moreover, Manny might’ve clobbered the Angels, like Bay did. But his numbers this season against the Rays show no such tendency: .200 / .308 / .311. Bay put up this line against them in the postseason: .292 / .469 / .458.

I think a bigger factor is the second one you mention – Jason Varitek’s poor hitting (1 for 20 in the ALCS). We also really missed Mike Lowell.

"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.

by 0157H7 on Oct 22, 2008 12:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Between Kotsay and Varitek

We really, really missed Mike Lowell. The depth he provides in the line up makes a huge difference.

"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Oct 24, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We lost because

a) our starters generally weren’t very good in the ALCS
and
b) our 7-9 hitters were dreadful.

End of story.

"no1 has time to read your long comments, are you writing a book?"

by britsoxfan on Oct 22, 2008 3:09 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

IF Manny had stayed in Boston

The Twins would of been the Wild Card in the AL and the Sox would of been home with the Yankees.

Jason Bay’s numbers were excellent and along with Jon Lester got the Sox to the ALCS.

People really need to let Manny go. The Sox came out of that trade in such a better position.

by SoxAcumen on Oct 22, 2008 6:26 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

Also, other guys on the team really started to pick it up once manny left. It was like a cloud over the clubhouse was lifted. Take Youk for example, I don’t have the pre- and post- Manny splits, (anybody wanna help?) but the effect of his departure was pretty clear. It ignited a momentum that we carried all the way to the playoffs

by Schulz on Oct 23, 2008 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't buy that

Manny had great numbers in July, when he supposedly quit on the team. Bays numbers were good (Bay is a good player), but Manny’s numbers were better.

Manny probably had to go. But the team is not better off without him.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Oct 23, 2008 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When you consider defense

The Sox might break even.

"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Oct 24, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Josh Beckett wasn't injured

The Sox would have won Game 2 of the ALCS, and would be hosting Philadelphia tonight.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Oct 22, 2008 7:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Josh Beckett

His 3 year average in Boston is 16-9 with a 4.10 ERA and a 1.21 WHIP. He had one GREAT post season,…that is all. He was 2-2 in the post season until last year. He had an ERA over 5 in 2006. He had an ERA over 4 this year. Who do you people think this guy is,…..Clemens,…..Pedro? He’s not. One great year in the last 3,…..BRAVO. The Tampa Bay Rays have 4 starters just as good or better.

by LouieTheLip on Oct 22, 2008 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Louie, man, I just got through defending you.

Stop trying to prove this. If you are gonna keep trying, at least use new stats, or at least better ones. WHIP is prolly the most advanced stat I’ve seen you use.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Oct 22, 2008 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Question

Do you think Beckett is as good as Clemens or Pedro? I think he’s as good as John Lackey, which is pretty damned good. Beckett is a great pitcher who had a MONSTER season last year. Now we have fans in Boston who SHOCKED he didn’t do it again. Now we have fans EXPECTING him to be lights out every time. His history shows otherwise. He had a special season last year, and this year he was 12-10 this year and healthy for most of it.

by LouieTheLip on Oct 23, 2008 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

as good as Clemens or Pedro????

The two best pitchers of the past 20 years? (Maddux followers can argue with me if they wish.)

No, Beckett is not as good as either of them.

Is he as good as John Smoltz? That’s probably about right.

Do we expect him to keep a lead in a postseason game? Well, that’s what he’s always done before 2008.

by RickD on Oct 24, 2008 2:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, not yet at least.

But I don’t have the stats to back it up, and I admit it. There are stats out there, I just don’t know where/how to find them.

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Oct 26, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Louie

Did you watch Game 2?

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Oct 22, 2008 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Beckett................

Not only was Beckett amazing in the World Series in 2007, your kind of forgetting his amazing pitching during the 2003 World Series for the Marlins against the one and only New York Yankees, he has two World Series MVP’s, one for the AL and one for the NL which proves that he is a dominant pitcher, and he should be expected to pitch like that, and he should be reliable enough to shut down good hitting teams…… so i disagree with you!!!!

by bubbaboy5 on Oct 22, 2008 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

I’m pretty sure Lowell was the MVP in 2007. Also Beckett was 0-2 in the playoffs heading into the world series in 2003. Point is Josh gets hot, and Josh gets cold. He’s not automatic. he had a great season last year, but needs to be judged on his entire body of work.

by LouieTheLip on Oct 23, 2008 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your as good as your players

Lowell, Beckett, and Drew are all injury prone. You signed them, you’re as good as them. if you were a younger healthier team, you would be the Rays

by LouieTheLip on Oct 23, 2008 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But mohawks?

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Oct 26, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Rays can thank Kotsay

for leaving all the guys on base that he did. Had Lowell been in the lineup instead and had those chances, Rays are not in the WS. Period. End of story. The Rays beat a team in the ALCS that had no business being there, and had seriously over-achieved.

by matzushocka45 on Oct 22, 2008 7:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Kotsay at least was hitting the ball hard

Varitek and Papi were the ones whiffing with men on base.

by RickD on Oct 24, 2008 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, over-achieving is a good thing from a team perspective, NO?

I do agree with you on the Kotsay issue, and I wonder why more is not made around here on that subject. While Kotsay did not do terrible, I do not have confidence in his hittng potential of his overall power to want him around as a starter. I think the Sox took him in a bind because he was the best they could get in a pinch, but hopefully the future plans for the team do NOT include too much of him!

by NG on Oct 22, 2008 7:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Kotsay is a back-up player

He wouldn’t have been playing if not for Lowell’s injury. Other Sox hitters that stunk v. Tampa:

Ellsbury
Ortiz
Lowrie
Cora
Tek

Kotsay played a great defensive 1B. He had 7 hits in the series, 3 for extra bases. Bay and Drew had 4 extra base hits combined. Aside from Coco, Youk, and Pedroia, no one hit especially well in the ALCS. Kotsay will likely be gone after this year. But he was a solid back-up OF/1B.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Oct 22, 2008 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You won’t get an argument from me, but had Lowell been in there I think things turn out way differently.

by matzushocka45 on Oct 23, 2008 7:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He delivered great D at first as a pleasant suprise. He also hit the snot out of some baseballs, but they were always hit in the wrong places. Lowell drives those guys in.

by matzushocka45 on Oct 22, 2008 7:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Holy shit:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Oct 22, 2008 8:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

New sig.

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Oct 22, 2008 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Spacing issue.

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Oct 22, 2008 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There we go.

Off to DRB! : )

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Oct 22, 2008 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, well.

That’s the 5th time.

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Oct 23, 2008 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh Louie...

This is truly stupid. Beckett had a NL-AL adjustment year his first year and was on the DL 2X (would have been 3 if the playoffs had not rolled around) this year. If the Rays have 4 such pitchers, show me one single year amongst the 4 that was ever like Beckett’s last year. You are also silly if you think he has not been good in the post season. Even with this year’s injury problems (and a 92 MPH fastball) his career playoff #’s are 7-2, 2.90 and 3 complete games (96 Ks in 87 innings). Your boy Clemens 12-8 3.75…hmm.

by Buzzy on Oct 22, 2008 8:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

And most of Fat Roger's wins came after the needle

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Oct 22, 2008 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No reply button?

He’s just looking for attention.

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Oct 22, 2008 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Louie that is.

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Oct 23, 2008 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A few points

In response to E5. The Red Sox function better without manny. If I had the opportunity to go back in time and be theo, I would’ve done the exact same thing. If Manny had stayed, we would not only have missed the world series, but we would probably have missed the playoffs all together. And then we would have picked up his option and he’d be pissed off all year long because he wouldn’t be getting any younger, and he’d have less of an opportunity to sign a big contract.

As for Varitek, you said it yourself, there are no other replacements. When our 1-8 hitters are Ells, Pedroia, Papi, Youk, Bay, Drew, Lowell, Lowrie, you can afford to have a C who hits ~.220 in the 9-hole. His bat sucks, we get it. So does every other catcher on the market. But we make up for it with other hitters that get on base and quality starting pitchers.

Stop worrying about an unimportant offensive position and start thinking about who will be at the back of our rotation next year, people! I for one am not ok with a 4/5 of Wakefield/Buccholz to start the year. Bring on Ben Sheets or someone of that caliber.

by Schulz on Oct 23, 2008 12:27 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You don't want Sheets

He’ll only crap out on your team in August and September. At least this year it took him until the last week of the season to miss a start.

by morineko on Oct 23, 2008 5:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's ok

if he can’t go the whole season. As it is, now two of our starters include Wake and Buccholz/Masterson/Bowden. I can live with Wakefield, but those guys need time to develop before they’re ready. I bet Sheets could pitch a pretty solid May-August, and then we call up one of the young guns.

by Schulz on Oct 23, 2008 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, Masterson is staying in the pen from what I've heard.

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Oct 23, 2008 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I figured as much.

I just threw him in there cuz he’s a possibility. My main point is, we don’t have 5 legit starters. That should be priority number one.

by Schulz on Oct 23, 2008 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"As for Varitek, you said it yourself, there are no other replacements."

Come on, there are always replacements with potential. It is called youth! Get on with it by bringing in a young pitcher and show Varitek his reitirement benefits ASAP. As for getting better starting pitching, you know you can do more than one thing at a time in management! It is legal.

by NG on Oct 23, 2008 9:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

A young catcher

…is exactly what I want to trade for, but at what cost. I think the only decent C prospect we can get our hands on will either cost us our farm system or won’t be ready for the majors. We’re not any better off if we get a guy who sucks at catching and hitting. At least Tek can do one of those.

And can you elaborate on “you can do more than one thing at a time”? I don’t understand that point.

by Schulz on Oct 23, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The point

is that you seem to be implying (“Stop worrying about an unimportant offensive position and start thinking about who will be at the back of our rotation next year, people”) that only one major task can be accomplished by management in the off season. Either a catcher or a new starting pitcher. I think the Sox have the depth of finance and minor league organizations to do both a Varitek replacement and another starter. I don’t know everyone out there who could be traded for or how all the minor leaguers are, and I doubt you do either. I do know that winning in the future is what it is about (for me anyway) , and both the failure of Varitek and the need for another starter are paramount equally to help achieve that goal, IMHO!! Varitek really sucked too much momentum out of our sails this years, so please do not try to minimize that!

by NG on Oct 23, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I completely agree.

I wasn’t trying to suggest that management wasn’t capable of multitasking, but simply, as you said, neither you nor I nor anybody else has presented a feasible alternative for Varitek.

I’m hoping somebody will come on this blog and tell me that some team has a plethora of young catchers, and that they’re in need of, say, a CF and some young P, but I don’t think that’s a reality. Long story short, Varitek is one of the best options out there (god that’s hard to say). Somebody please tell me I’m wrong!

And yes, I do think another starter is more important than another catcher in the short term.
The difference between Varitek and a replacement is probably about .030 BA, .040 OBP, and 3HR.
The difference between Buccholz and Sheets/Burnett etc. is about 5-6 wins and 1.00 ERA

Perhaps Clay is capable and I’m wrong, but I for one, am not ready to hand him the ball in the 5th game of the regular season and beyond . (FOR THE RECORD: I believe Buccholz has tremendous potential and will be our #2 starter someday, but that day will not be 2009)

by Schulz on Oct 23, 2008 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

See this:

http://www.overthemonster.com/2008/10/23/641151/red-sox-off-season-moves
I’m trying.

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Oct 23, 2008 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And I disagree about your "on the record" statement.

Buch be too damn screwed now.

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Oct 23, 2008 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Link

Is that supposed to direct me to that yankee C prospect? Because that is just a foolish expectation. I don’t think Hank and Theo even have eachother’s numbers in their cell phones.

by Schulz on Oct 24, 2008 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hank isn't a GM, Cashman is.

If we could convince a team to swing him to us…

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Oct 26, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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