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Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)

BOS Schilling (8-5, 4.11) NYY Wang (15-6, 3.95) Red Sox Lineup: 1. Dustin Pedroia, 2B 2. Coco Crisp, CF 3. David Ortiz, DH 4. Kevin Youkilis, 1B 5. Mike Lowell, 3B 6. J.D. Drew, RF 7. Jason Varitek, C 8. Eric Hinske, LF 9. Alex Cora, SS Yankees Lineup: -TBA

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Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
potg: Lowell
Schill: 6IP 7H 4ER 4K 1BB
A&B: Uhh....Sox win!!(cross fingers), Dusty gets a double, Mikey drives in 2
"We don't need him"~Curt Schilling on Roger Clemens

by LuXu on Aug 30, 2007 11:03 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
POTG: Schill
Schill: 8.0, 6 H, 2 ER, 0 BB, 3 K
A&B: Schill leaves at least 3 MFYs stranded in scoring position.

by badlydrawnjeff on Aug 30, 2007 11:53 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
POTG: Oki
Schill: 6 IP, 6 H, 4 ER, 3 BB
A&B: Schill will labor but keep them close, Oki will shut it down for Pap

by Bill Heffernan on Aug 30, 2007 12:07 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
POTG: Papi
Schilling's Line: 6 IP, 7 H, 3 ER, 2 BB, 3 K
A&B: Sox have at least 13 hits

by RSNexile on Aug 30, 2007 12:29 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
Drugs Delaney's picks:

Player of the Game: Papi
Schill's Line: 6 IP 6 H 3 ER 1 BB 4 K
Above and Beyond: Red Sox get at least 10 hits

by RSNexile on Aug 30, 2007 12:31 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
Why is Tito not batting Youk 2nd. He obviously hits best there. Why not keep batting Lowell 4th and make JD earn his money by batting in that 5 hole. I think going with our best 1-2-3 hitters makes more sense then mixing the lineup from day to day. Im glad he moved Dusty back to the leadoff spot after last night.

by DougieGoingDeep on Aug 30, 2007 1:17 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
OTM
POTG: Lowell
Schilling's Line: 6IP, 4H, 3ER,5Ks
Above and Beyond: Crisp runs down every fly ball hit to him with perfection.  Lugo shuts down the Yankees with a DP.
You can take the boy outta Boston, but you can't take the Boston outta the boy.

by B Cap on Aug 30, 2007 2:56 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll make this rant short
because folks on this blog live in another world and will not see reality most likely.  Let me just say that the Yankees series was just pitiful for the Sox, especially today, Thursday.  Outplayed, outcoached, outhit, outfielded, outfoxed, out everything.

If anyone here wishes me to stop saying things like this, just critize this post even a little (I dare you) and I'll be gone!

by NG on Aug 30, 2007 4:20 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: I'll make this rant short
Why are we the ones fighting amongst ourselves when we're in first place?

by Bill Heffernan on Aug 30, 2007 4:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: I'll make this rant short
No, actually it would be good if you kept it going.

by ReLaunch on Aug 30, 2007 4:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: I'll make this rant short
You know what NG.  I cannot take it anymore.  I said I would go elsewhere...and I will after this comment.  The "plethora" of fans here live in a fantasy world. (I see nobody cares enough to post) See, heffernan's comment is the fantasy, "when we are in first place".  It is called denial.  See:
http://www.overthemonster.com/story/2007/8/8/93527/72820

I posted this On August 8th when I just had enough.  I have said it.  Ofensively, this team stinks.  Managerially, Francona is once again showing his true colors.  People commented on my diary entry and not many gave me a different argument other than "we are in first place".  The people here cannot criticize the team, players or management.  You simply cannot criticize the Sox here.  If you do, you are an "idiot" or "a fairweather fan".  See, they are too busy here policing harmless comments and making sure posters do not criticize anything about the Red Sox.

Coco Crisp, JD Drew, and Julio Lugo (not to mention Hinske) are an embarrassment. I have already said it...I will be surprised if this team even makes the playoffs...it will just be more ammo for freaking Yankee fans.  No matter how good our pitching is, you have to score runs against good or decent pitching...not just beat up on mediocre White Sox pitching.

Watch NG...just watch.  Here come all the comment where I get called all kinds of names and get told to leave or they call me a troll...wait for it.  It is coming...

by cblesz on Aug 30, 2007 5:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: I'll make this rant short
I just wonder what you're hoping to get out of being a sports fan.  Anybody who claims to be a Sox fan but still finds reasons to bitch and moan when the Sox have been in first place all season is a person who is simply never going to be happy.  

No matter how good the Sox are, there will always be ways they could be better.  I'm not saying they've played well this week.  They haven't.  But negativism in the fan base doesn't help any.

by RickD on Aug 30, 2007 5:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: I'll make this rant short
I just wonder what you're hoping to get out of being a sports fan.

IT is a fair question, but I have a personal answer. I want value for my time spent watching a supposedly quality team.  I do not watch baseball unless the Sox are doing well and show promise.  Earlier this year, the Sox looked so good that I bought the IN-demand cable option to watch if the hot start could be a good or even mild finish because it is not how you start that counts, but how you finish.  I see the Sox now beginning to act like last years and other years Sox teams that could not perform when it counts. I get angry and then bored with poor performances because I only get satisfaction out of a quality team that gives consistent quality performances.  What I saw recently against the better teams like the Angels and now especially the Yankees was boring and poor quality.  So unless I see some real quality, I may well tune out.  I also need to vent a bit because of this false hope and now disapppointment evidently that this was/is a quality team!

One more point, to the poster who said it is a fact that the Sox will be in the playoffs.  Well their motivational level now will be in the sewer so do bet on that happening.  Even it they do squeeze into the playoffs somehow, be prepared to routinely get that crappy feeling that we have experienced the last 3 days because this does not seem to be a very good team when it counts.  Great pitching, yes, but very marginal hitters in 4 or 5 slots, and that is not enough!  If the unthinkable (but now likely, IMO) does happen, Sox management better trade off some of that pitching strength for a few more really reliable and consistent hitters.

by NG on Aug 30, 2007 10:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Relax
Nobody's going to call you a troll or ask you to leave. Nobody did before. As Alan said, sometimes it's hard to read intent in the cyber world. He just wanted to make sure there was no bad intent behind a comment that could easily be construed that way. You responded in a way that made us believe there wasn't, but then you got huffy for anybody having the temerity to question your faceless, nameless comment. Which is on you, not us.

That's point 1.

Regarding my comment that we're in first place, so we shouldn't immediately start falling apart at the seams, well, it sort of goes to that troll's poll about when the Red Sox would implode. If we didn't have the horses to win this, I would say, fine, wait till next year. But we do, so let's just not beat ourselves. Stop shooting off about Damon and shit like that, cuz it's one ridiculous chip to carry around & it makes it hard to put the bat on the ball.

The MFY have 2 strong pitchers, Wang and Pettite. Clemens pitched well last night, but he's blown up just as often in those types of games--and that's when he had a lot more juice than he does now.

Three days ago, it looked like MFY's season was on the brink. Now here we are, still 5 games up, throwing in the towel on the playoffs after a shitty series?

In my view, this reality check couldn't have come at a better time. Now if you want to call this name-calling, that's up to you. I like that you're questioning stuff and bringing up good questions.

by Bill Heffernan on Aug 30, 2007 6:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Relax
I actually read through Tony the Pony's comment to your August 8 post. Since it's still on target here, I'll re-post it in its entirety:

Series with the Yankees

... will be incredibly important, agreed.  I'm hoping for a "Slaughter on 161st Street" to avenge last year's "Boston Massacre II."  

On to the substance of the diary:

1)  Pitching---are you crazy?  Beckett's not just the bright side of our rotation, he's a legitimate-if-not-quite-favored Cy Young candidate.  Matsuzaka has his trouble spots but is otherwise a win- and strikeout-generating machine.  Our fourth starter Wakefield is 13-10 (! did I mention "fourth starter"?), Lester's a young kid with a lot of upside, and then you have our "ace," who's admittedly struggled with injuries but has had moments of brilliance and still is a contribution to the rotation.

But the starters are just half of it.  The Red Sox have not just the best 'pen in the American League, but a 'pen that is strikingly better than the rest of the AL (a stat I got from Baseball Prospectus this morning says they're 11.96 in WXRL, compared to 10.05 for the second-best Twins, and far ahead of the fifth-best Indians, with 7.86).  Bottom line, our pitching is something to be envied, not bemoaned.  

   2.  Defense---maybe you're not crazy, exactly.  If Lugo makes that double play last night, the inning ends tied 4-4, Wakefield stays in longer.... I don't want to think about it anymore.  Manny is still being Manny in left.  Lowell?  I haven't noticed.  Overall, however, our defense is solid---fifth in the majors by fielding percentage.  You mentioned Coco---did you forget about Dusty and Youk?  Varitek?  

   3.  Offense---umm, I'm swinging back to "are you crazy."  Fourth in the majors in runs scored.  Fourth.  Yes, the Yankees and Tigers are ahead of us.  They're also 15th/19th in pitching (team ERA), and we're 2nd.  Batting is only half the game, and it counts for less than half the game in the playoffs.

Let me back off for a second:  The offense is not what we thought it would be; in fact, it's the part of the team that is the biggest negative surprise.  Who would have thought Manny couldn't protect Ortiz, or that Ortiz would not actually need any protection because he's got a severe case of the warning-track-itis?  And the Red Sox are still first?  This doesn't seem to me a terrible cause for concern as much as a source of hopeful anticipation---if and when Ortiz and Manny get back to their old form, the Sox are going to be scary.  

The Yankees....  Hey, I'll cop to it.  I'm a bit spooked.  I really, really, really don't want my hundred or so Yankee fan friends (I live in New York) gloating about some grand comeback from 14 1/2 back all offseason.  However, the Yanks have a really soft schedule.  They're playing a crippled Toronto while we're playing a great Angels squad.  They just feasted on Royals pitching while the Sox were struggling against the Central leading Cleveland.  Guess what? the soft schedule is coming to an end soon---they face Cleveland, Anaheim, Detroit and the Red Sox.  Their offense has been explosive as of late, but there's a reason they're not on pace to score 1,620 runs this season---they're not going to score 10 runs a game.  

"Lucky to make the playoffs"?  Okay, it's official:  You're crazy.  Someone needs to take away your shoelaces.  If the Red Sox play .600 ball the rest of the way they'll be 98-64.  You know how many games we play against Tampa Bay (12), Chicago (4) and Baltimore (7) during that stretch?  47% of the remaining games, with the Rays comprising roughly one quarter of our schedule.  

None of this should be taken as "don't worry they'll be fine everything is copacetic."  I'm concerned, too.  But a five game lead isn't something to bemoan, as much as I'd like to be looking at a 19 1/2 lead and a possible elimination party at Yankee stadium.  I think all this pessimism is exaggerated.

Tony the Pony

by Bill Heffernan on Aug 30, 2007 6:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
Three times I was called crazy in that post.  Look, this year's team has been exposed.  How many batters 1 through 9 are batting sub .280?  Without looking, I will say 4.  You do not win a World Series with that type of lineup.

Sure, we beat up on average or good teams.  Tell me, how have we fared against good teams? Seems to me we got smacked around by the Angels (recently when they were healthy), the Yankees and Seattle.  What good team have we taken it to?

Roger Clemens DID NOT PITCH WELL.  We batted poorly.  Every time our hitters do not hit, all you guys say is "well, he is a good pitcher". EVERY pitcher is not a great pitcher, it's just that our poor hitting makes them look like good pitchers. Other teams have not had problems with Clemens.  We did.  Tell me.  Please tell me.  Who in the current Sox lineup would you rather have at the plate (position by position) as opposed to a Yankee batter right now?  Nobody.  Period.  And, that includes Ortiz right now as he is playing hurt and not coming through in the clutch.  Seriously...position by position.

1base - Youkilis or Giambi or Phillips
2base - Pedroia or Cano
ss - Lugo or Jeter
3b - Lowell or Arod
LF - Hinske (even Manny) or Damon/Matsui
CF - Crisp or Cabrera
RF - Nancy or Abreu
C - Varitek or Posada

Really.  Let's be honest.  There is nobody on that list that you would take on the Sox right now over the Yankees' player.  So.  What does that leave us?  Our pitching is stronger.  Maybe.  But it certainly did not beat their top pitchers the last three games did it?  The Yankee pitchers are a tad weaker than ours.  But, their powerful lineup will mask that pitching deficiency going forward.  Plus, they now have the bridge to Rivera in Chamberlain.  Look, you can all fool yourselves into not thinking he is a stud, but I have watched him pitch.  He is filthy and not going to get hit much.  Makes me wonder how they draft and hang onto this kind of pitcher when they are always trading prospects away...

by cblesz on Aug 30, 2007 7:33 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
Don't take this personally, cblesz.  I just want to respond to this comment:  
Three times I was called crazy in that post.  Look, this year's team has been exposed.  How many batters 1 through 9 are batting sub .280?  Without looking, I will say 4.  You do not win a World Series with that type of lineup.

2007 Red Sox: .277 AVG/.360 OBP/.437 SLG
Sub .280 hitters
SS - Julio Lugo .238/.295/.347
CF - Coco Crisp .265/.328/.375
RF - JD Drew .257/.357/.386
C - Jason Varitek .263/.365/.416

OK.  On the surface, it looks like cblesz has a point.  Four current Red Sox regulars are currently hitting under .280 AVG.  Since that's the benchmark, let's look at some recent World Series Teams and see how many sub-.280 hitters they had.

2006 St. Louis Cardinals (WS champs): .269/.337/.431
C- Y. Molina .216/.274/.321
2B - A. Miles .263/.324/.347 - Belliard .237/.295/.371
LF - Taguchi .266/.335/.351
CF - Edmonds .257/.350/.471
RF - Encarnacion .278/.317/.443

2006 Detroit Tigers (95 wins, AL pennant): .274/.329/.449
1B - Shelton .273/.340/.466 - Casey .245/.286/.364
3B - Inge .253/.313/.463
LF - Monroe .255/.301/.482
CF - Granderson .260/.335/.438
DH -Thames .256/.333/.549

2005 Chicago White Sox (WS Champs): .262/.322/.425
C - Pierzynski - .257/.308/.420
3B - Crede .252/.303/.454
SS - Uribe .252/.301/.412
CF - Rowand .270/.329/.407
RF - Dye .274/.333/.512
DH - C. Everett .251/.311/.435

2005 Houston Astros 89 wins, NL pennant): .256/.322/.408
C - Ausmus .258/.351/.331
2B - Biggio .264/.325/.468
SS - A. Everett .248/.290/.364
LF - Burke .248/.309/.368
RF - Lane .267/.316/.499

In 2004, both the Sox and Cards had 3 hitters under .280 (actually the Sox had more when you factor in Pokey, etc.).

2003 Florida Marlins (WS Champs): .266/.333/.421
1B - D. Lee .271/.379/.508
3B - Lowell .276/.350/.530
SS - Gonzalez .256/.313/.443
LF - Hollandsworth .254/.317/.421
RF - Encarnacion .270/.313/.446

2003 (MFY 101 wins, AL pennant): .271/.356/.453
1B - Giambi .250/.412/.527
3B - Ventura .251/.344/.392 - Boone .254/.302/.418
CF - Williams .263/.367/.411
RF - Mondesi (95 G in RF) .258/.330/.471

The biggest problem with the Red Sox offense, as I've said before, is the lack of a consistent long-ball threat.  Hopefully, Manny's injury isn't serious.  However, I have trouble taking anyone seriously who thinks this year's Sox team "sucks."

The Red Sox are 25-21 v. AL contenders.
The MFY are 24-21 v. AL contenders.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Aug 30, 2007 8:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
Phew. Thanks, Drugs. I was already dusting off the pigskin.

Here's the deal. The Sox are getting to the post-season. Period. And once there, it comes down to 1.) pitching, and 2.) who's got the hot bat.

Cb's right. Clemens didn't pitch that well. We just didn't hit well. But that's sort of like the weather in Florida in August. Wait 10 minutes and it will change.

Which brings me back to that whole kharma thing...

by Bill Heffernan on Aug 30, 2007 9:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
I am not taking it personally...especially when you give details like you did (thank you).  Just saying, we are not that strong.  And, we had a chance to put the Yankees away...certainly  did not do that...gave them momentum...

by cblesz on Aug 30, 2007 9:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
Please tell me you didn't think  the Yanks WOULDN"T be contending for a spot or the division?  Is that proving a negative?

That whole "put them away" argument works both ways, how many times have the Yanks been within 5 or even 4 games in the past 2 weeks? The lead was back to 8 in the blink of an eye.

The infighting on a Red Sox fans blog is silly, we all root for the same team. If you don't like the team, root for another team. I am sure I will if Arod ends up on the Sox, i just can't cheer for him. I am annoyed by Schilling but I dislike Arod but I won't post here daily with anti-Arod or Red Sox rants. I'd just move on....

The series it is what it is, move on & hope the have a great homestand.

by MassGal on Aug 30, 2007 9:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
Yes, the lead did grow.  We played the hapless White Sox.  It is NOT infighting.  It is stating an opinion.  Please do not question my loyalty.  I am a RABID Sox fan, always have been.  I just do not think this is the team.  There are too many holes.  If you all want to believe we are a juggernaut, it is your opinion.  It is wrong, but it is your opinion.  If you honestly believe we win the WS with Lugo, Crisp and Drew...that is seeing things with rose colored glasses, with no sniff of reality...sorry.

by cblesz on Aug 30, 2007 9:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

cblesz

After a long week of work & law school (and the self important jerks that come with the package); I sighed as I read your post.

Please tell me where I wrote "Sox will win World Series".

Maybe I am missing something but do they subtract points if a team beats "hapless" teams? Don't those wins count just as much as those against any other win? It's like how people ooooh & aaaaaaaah over a long home run---it's --the same with a  dunk in basketball--its attention getting but its  still just worth two points...see what I mean?

Maybe this isn't THE team, yeah OK  maybe but I never wrote " Red Sox fans this is our year". I just root for the team.

Your comments are not those of a rabid fan especially not the name calling.

 ...& by the way, I  wear contacts, not glasses.

by MassGal on Aug 30, 2007 9:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: cblesz
You didn't.  I am simply being critical of the team.  All wins count.  But when you cannot hit at all against good pitching, you do not win the World Series.  This lineup, especially the three amigos is a bitter disappointment.

by cblesz on Aug 30, 2007 10:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: cblesz
In the playoffs, all that matters is pitching.  If you look at the last 25 years, the teams that had the best hitting teams in the regular season did not have any correlation with that in the playoffs.  As much as I hate to admit it, Sox have a good 3 for a playoff series.

by ReLaunch on Aug 30, 2007 11:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: cblesz
I agree.  But, you have to be able to score some runs...

by cblesz on Aug 30, 2007 11:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: cblesz
Look at the Yanks the last 2 years in the playoffs. Had the best hitting team but got shut down by good pitching.  

by ReLaunch on Aug 30, 2007 11:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
I agree abou the long ball threat, too...but our threats of Drew, Lugo, Crisp and now a struggling Youk?  That's 4 batters that pitchers are not afraid to come after...btw, what about my Yankee/Sox batters?  Would you take any Sox?

by cblesz on Aug 30, 2007 9:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
Wow.  Really?  Youk is slumping...Manny has not hit for power and although I like Pedroia, you will take him at the plate before Cano right now?  Wow...I am stunned.

by cblesz on Aug 30, 2007 9:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
Listen, Game Over, it's not a question of stats. I'm tired of this conversation. We may not make it. We may. But this is not a conversation I want to continue to have.

by Bill Heffernan on Aug 30, 2007 11:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
Dude, all this gesticulating is really neurotic. Stop picking fights.

by Bill Heffernan on Aug 31, 2007 5:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
Wow. You convinced me. When does football season start? Think Moss will get us back to the Super Bowl?

by Bill Heffernan on Aug 30, 2007 8:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
Oh.  One more thing...anyone notice Mr. Crisp (cannot call him anything else) went 0 for 12?  And, was horrible in the outfield?  Plain and simple.  He sucks.  Drew sucks, and Lugo sucks.  Why can't we send Crisp to AAA and bring up Ellsbury?  How does that hurt us?

by cblesz on Aug 30, 2007 7:38 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Open Thread: 8.30.07 @ New York (AL)
I think crisp in the outfield is one of our strong points. His anticipation is of the best in the outfield, & he gets to a LOT of balls that others don't. JD is worthless, I'd rather see ellsbury in right than take center.

We're headed home, & play 18 of the next 28 @ the fens... I think that'll help. Let's hope the d-rays play well (sucks though that the yanks are missing kazmir)

by kevindineen on Aug 31, 2007 9:47 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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