Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: 2012 Africa Cup Of Nations Final

Epstein Trade Analysis Analysis.

You've probably at least seen Dan Julien's diary on the right with a link to his summaries and statistical analysis of Epstein's trade work as Red Sox GM.  It's certainly illuminating.  One of the great things if you're using statistical analysis is that it makes it easy to identify the winners and losers in a trade.  VORP, WARP, WS, OPS+ and ERA+ (amongst others) are pretty easy stats to find on the internet these days.  

However, it doesn't tell the whole story.  Can't blame Dan for this, he simply puts the facts out there for us on the stats in an easy-to-read format.  It's great work.  A couple of the trades where context beyond stats can be helpful are these:

1.  Shea Hillenbrand for Byung-Hyun Kim.
Wow.  If there are two Red Sox personalities since the Carl Everett (or Jurassic) Era with somewhat dubious personalities to match their somewhat dubious skillset, it's these two.  We lost this trade, because Hillenbrand was a more valuable player than Kim for the most part in terms of VORP.  Some other things are important to note here, however.  Hillenbrand's departure allowed the Red Sox to play Bill Mueller and David Ortiz everyday: Bueno.  It's also important to note that while BK flamed out at the end, he was solid in the bullpen in 2003, saving 16 with an ERA+ of 148.  Another thing, and I don't mean to offend Dan with this, but I think it's hard to say Hillenbrand batted "well" with OPS+ of 92 and 106.  OPS+ of 100 is average.  Hillenbrand was right around that, while playing most of his "defense" at first base.  OPS+ of 106, in particular, would be fairly acceptable from a pure leadoff hitter at 2B or in CF(this guy for example).  Call me a Theo apologist, but this one might be more accurately called a wash, considering all of the surrounding issues.

2.  Dave Roberts for Ramon Vasquez, He Who Shall Not Be Named, and David Pauley.
Dan is a little too even-handed about this one.  This trade was a very bad one, and not just because of HWSNBN.  Pauley could still have 4th starter potential.  After his great effort in the Bronx last season (this was impressive, no matter the eventual outcome), I figured he would go down to AAA and be full of confidence from his success on one of the biggest stages in American sports.  That did not end up being the case.  Vasquez was turned into Alex Cora, thank goodness.  Why Vasquez has a role on any team is beyond me.  He can't hit, he's not particularly fast, and while not a butcher, he's hardly a defensive whiz.  It ended up being the right thing to do, giving Roberts a chance at a starting job in the NL.  This also allowed us to have 'the steal' as our final sight of Roberts playing as a Red Sox.  We were unequivocably the losers in any kind of baseball sense when considering this trade.

3.  HWSNBN for Chad Bradford
You're probably getting this by now, but I was not and still am not a fan of this guy.  As can be seen in Dan's article, we lost in VORP.  We gained in team morale and entertaining pitching deliveries.  A starting corner OF should have an OPS+ above 100.  Payton is consistently in the 90s.  A decent 4th OF who feels entitled to a starting job for a slightly above-average RP is okay in my book.  We should have re-signed Bradford.

A couple other points:  

  • While he'll probably be above-average over his career, I'm glad we probably won't hear as much about Matt Murton as we will about Hanley Ramirez or others.  Unlike Hanley, Sanchez, or Marte, I'm not sure where he would've fit.  He's a similar hitter to Kevin Youkilis, which would've been great if he could've played a MI position.  
  • Dan's right.  Few of the trades work out in our favor.  Possibly something Theo needs to work on, though sometimes trades aren't done for the purposes of improving a team through that move alone (see Abreu, Bobby; Gillick, Pat; Cashman, Brian; and the term: Salary dump).
  • Check out his analyses of the other GMs that are available.  Always nice to have some perspective on what other teams are doing.  
  • Just in time for the New Year, I should have another Know Thine/Better Know An Enemy up on Monday.  As with last time, though nobody did, requests will not be ignored entirely.
       

Comment 15 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Re: Epstein Trade Analysis Analysis.
The thing about the Roberts trade is that he wanted to go. He wanted to start and we couldn't give that to him with our crowded outfield. There's no way Roberts would have been traded had he been comfortable as a backup. It's no excuse for receiving Vasquez and Payton in a trade, but it's another thing to consider.

And as we say that was a bad trade, we need to remember that we traded for Dave Roberts in the first place. We traded Henri Stanley, a minor leaguer for him. Where he he now? He's hitting a solid .261 with 5 home runs for the Somerset Patriots. Yeah, that's an independent team.

by Randy Booth on Dec 30, 2006 10:10 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Epstein Trade Analysis Analysis.
Agreed on both points.  Roberts deserved a starting job if one was available.  We also got him for a bag of peanuts (which IMHO, is  what the Yankees would deserve in exchange for Randy Johnson at this point if they're not willing to swallow salary, as has been rumored).
"Sorry? Sorry doesn't cut it Melissa, I want an apology."-Jason Penopolis, Home Movies

by Allen Chace on Dec 31, 2006 12:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Epstein Trade Analysis Analysis.
,

Hey thanks for some info, I'm gonna read it over again when I get home sometime today and see if I can't make adjustments. I actully just read another book about that Theo era, so I was oping to revise the article anyway.

I completely agree with the opinion that Roberts was had for nothing from DePo but Theo could have had more for him...

The Hillenbrand trade did allow the Sox to play Mr. Ortiz more and therefore discover his MVPness but they still traded a guy who has been quite productive, even for my Jays...although he's getting close to "he who shall not be named status".

I'm probably doing Gord Ash or Mark Shapiro next...any thoughts?

by danjulien @ Over the Monster on Dec 31, 2006 10:56 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Epstein Trade Analysis Analysis.
I'd like to see both, though if it matters at all, I'd like to see Shapiro first.  He's a guy I've got a severe "GM crush" on.  
"Sorry? Sorry doesn't cut it Melissa, I want an apology."-Jason Penopolis, Home Movies

by Allen Chace on Dec 31, 2006 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Epstein Trade Analysis Analysis.
I'm not sure how valuable it is to analyze trades in Julien's fashion. It's easy to see what turned out well and what didn't, but this information is often useless for future trades. What matters most is that the process used to evaluate players and make trades is sound, because over time it should produce success.

by 0157H7 on Dec 31, 2006 10:58 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Epstein Trade Analysis Analysis.
Actually, that's where I am now, trying to figure out how to utilize this for future trades, I have some ideas and I'm working on some things but I need a larger samples which is why I'm moving onto other GM's.

by danjulien @ Over the Monster on Dec 31, 2006 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Epstein Trade Analysis Analysis.
I don't see how you can call the Hillenbrand trade a "wash". It clearly worked out very well for us when you factor everything in. 1) At that point in the season Shea was platooning with Mueller, who was hitting at about a .415 clip and went on to win the batting title, which made him very expendable, 2) Shea didn't have great power at third to make up for his sub par glove, 3) he was making all sorts of noise in the clubhouse that later became "the idiots" and had possibly the greatest chemistry of any Sox team ever, 4)we were in desperate need of a closer after the failed closer by committee experiment, and 5)with shea gone, opens up spots in the everyday lineup for Ortiz and Mueller. Regardless of how BK worked out, Shea hasn't done much better (and wouldn't crack any Sox lineup since 04), so this is one of those classic "addition by subtraction" trades that worked out very much in our favor
Get your Yankees Suck - Japanese shirts now: http://www.cafepress.com/yankeessuckjap

by jsnvaritek33 on Dec 31, 2006 1:38 PM EST reply actions  

Hillenbrand for BK
I may be in the minority, but I think this was a very good trade for the Sox in 2003.  

Hillenbrand was awful.  He had OK power, rarely walked, and was awful defensively at third.  In 2002, Shea booted 23 balls at 3B and only walked 25 times in 156 games (.314 OBP).  Before the trade, Hillenbrand walked 7 times in 49 games and had a .335 OBP.  In 185 ABs for the Sox in 2003, he only had 3 HR.  Basically, he was taking up lineup space that was better used by Billy Mueller and David Ortiz.

Boston's pitching was a mess and Kim helped stabilize the staff. In 49 games for the Sox (5 starts), BK was 8-5-16 3.18 ERA.  He only blew 3 saves.  But, genius that he was, Grady Little overused Kim.  BK made 42 relief appearances in July, August, and September.  He converted 16 of 19 save opportunities, with an ERA of 2.19 and a WHIP of 0.87.  

Another thing to remember about Hillenbrand is he hasn't stuck with any team since he left Boston.  Also, Byung-Hyun Kim is probably the best player he has been traded for.  Kudos to Theo--that trade helped the Sox get to the playoffs in 2003!

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 31, 2006 5:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Hillenbrand for BK
If you are in the minority I am with you. The trade adressed a need and it allowed for 2 of the most important players in Red Sox history to start. Mueller turned the '04 season around with his game winning homerun against the MFYs and Papi.....need I say more? The Red Sox would be NO WHERE without this trade.

by absolutelax395 on Jan 1, 2007 7:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Epstein Trade Analysis Analysis.
Excellent points.  I suppose calling it a wash was trying to find some middle ground.  Statistically, we technically got the least valuable player in the deal.  In the real world, we gained clubhouse stability, a batting title season from Shea's 3B replacement, and a great season that would barely foreshadow the greatness that is David Ortiz.  Oh yeah.  We won the World Series that year too.  :)
"Sorry? Sorry doesn't cut it Melissa, I want an apology."-Jason Penopolis, Home Movies

by Allen Chace on Dec 31, 2006 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Objective Opinions.
It's quite obvious that Boston's bankroll is more responsible for their front office's success than Theo's brilliance, but I wouldn't expect Red Sox fans to concede that point.  I'm a Braves fan and I'd certainly be aprehensive to the idea that something other than Schuerholz's otherworldy abilities as a GM were the reason for our success, but it's probably true.  This is a remarkably interesting analysis (it's hard to believe that Theo has shipped Freddy Sanchez, Matt Murton, Hanley Ramirez, Andy Marte, Anibal Sanchez and some other highly touted/successful prospects over the years without any real scrutiny) and I look forward to other such case-studies.  

by ejruiz @ Over the Monster on Dec 31, 2006 5:27 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Objective Opinions.
It's quite obvious that Boston's bankroll is more responsible for their front office's success than Theo's brilliance, but I wouldn't expect Red Sox fans to concede that point.

I don't know if you read Dan's article or my reactions.  Theo has made some stupendous trade mistakes.  I don't think anyone who has read his article and commented here was blinders on about this.  Your comment doesn't seem very pertinent.  Sure, there are Sox fans who worship fully at the altar of Theo.  I think he does a fine job as a negotiator with FA, backed by JH's money.  He's made some good trades, some bad ones, and several poor ones.

Theo did not ship Anibal or Hanley anywhere.  Rumor is, he was extremely disappointed about the FO trading them while he was gone.  There's been no scrutiny?  There's been plenty.  The point I'll concede is that while there are plenty of Sox fans who question the trades in a vacuum, most are (too) trusting that it will all be part of a bigger and better plan.    

"Sorry? Sorry doesn't cut it Melissa, I want an apology."-Jason Penopolis, Home Movies

by Allen Chace on Dec 31, 2006 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I Apologize.
I'm sorry if what I wrote offended you or anyone else, that certainly was not my intention.  The quote you singled out probably applies to all big market teams and I shouldn't have just picked on the Sox.  I also did not mean to imply that all Boston fans are turning a blind eye to the front office's mistakes or that you're particularly stuburn about admitting that they were made.  I mean, I did say that I would fall into a similar camp if the same were said about my Braves and John Schuerholz; so if I insulted you, then I was doing the same to myself.  Finally, I just wanted to add that I respect Red Sox fans and that's evidenced by the simple fact that I joined this board that has nothng to do with my team.  And with that said, I wish you all a happy New Year to you all!

by ejruiz @ Over the Monster on Jan 1, 2007 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: I Apologize.
I came off a little too scathing myself.  To be honest, though I'm sure you can find some evidence to the contrary, Schuerholz has proven to be one of the most successful and sharp GMs in the business, dwindling budget and all.  
"Sorry? Sorry doesn't cut it Melissa, I want an apology."-Jason Penopolis, Home Movies

by Allen Chace on Jan 1, 2007 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Epstein Trade Analysis Analysis.
I think a couple of important facts to look at when discussing trades is first did the trade make sense at the time....I think most of these trades made sense at the time, even the Sanchez trade...The Sox got two proven pitchers for a prospect...Unfortunately those pitchers didn't work out...Also it is far easier to be great in places like Pittsburg, Florida, KC, etc. than it is to be even good in Boston..Although it might be fun to think about an infield of Youk, Sanchez, Ramirez, and Marte, there certainly is no guarantee that the three that aren't in Boston would flourish...I know the article didn't cover '06, but I think the panic trade to bring Mirabelli back last year was worse than any of the trades discussed in the article...And the Arroyo for Pena trade, which has been highly scrutinized, needs more time, but may prove to be a great trade or a terrible one..We'll see

by flynn19 on Jan 1, 2007 5:22 PM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Over the Monster, an SB Nation community that delivers news and analysis while encouraging discussion regarding everything Boston Red Sox. OTM was founded Feb. 22, 2005.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Jddrew_small
OTM Fantasy Baseball-post 2

Recent FanPosts

School-of-adventure_print_small
Carl Crawford's offensive woes.
Small
Pedroia vs Cano
I_want_to_believe_small
Dwight Evans = Hall of Famer
School-of-adventure_print_small
What might have been continued: 2010-2011 offseason
Small
The Red Sox and the luxury tax
Silence_small
Alfredo Aceves and Red Sox agree at $1.2 million
Danny_and_shuttle_small
Matt Garza Is Fair Compensation For Theo Epstein
School-of-adventure_print_small
What might have been: A revisionist look to the 2009-2010 offseason.
School-of-adventure_print_small
Dustin Moseley
Old-patriots-logo_small
Free Agent SPs Not Named Oswalt, Jackson

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Red_seat_small Ben Buchanan

Twitter_eb_2_small Marc Normandin

Authors

Lowrie__1234972975_0178-1_small lone1c

Jddrew_small gizmosandy

Pedoria1_small Mattsullivan

Baghead-1_small Matthew Kory

Photo__2__small BrendanOToole

Cee_small Cee Angi

Retired Numbers

20136_562469370037_32603605_33253497_5601129_n_small Randy Booth

Master_shake_small Allen Chace

Rollie_fingers_small SoxDevil

Rorscach_small 0157H7

Red_sox_logo_small Logan Lietz

Photo_small wolf9309