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Fire Theo Epstein!

     Last year Theo Epstein supposively pulled of this great deal to send Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell  in exchange for Hanley Ramirez, Anabelle Sanchez, and Jesus Delgado. The Marlins wanted Ramirez and Lester, but instead we offered them Sanchez and Delgado instead of Jon Lester. They took the deal, but made us take on Mike Lowell's hefty contract. When it happened it sounded like the Red Sox could make a good World Series run adding Beckett, a previous World Series MVP, to the number one spot in the pitching rotation.
     In exchange we gave up are top prospect, Hanley Ramirez. He was this amazing shortstop that many teams probably would of given a number one or great number 2 pitcher for. Like always now we look for the present instead for the future. Sanchez and Delgado were just throw in prospects to keep Lester on the team. Sanchez was a decent pitcher though producing a 3.45 ERA in Portland.
     This was a horrible deal for the Red Sox. We got a proven pitcher who ended up with a 5.01 ERA and 11 losses. It was an atrocious year and only within the first three games was his ERA ever below 4. The Marlins however ended up with the National League Rookie of the Year, Hanley Ramirez, who happen to be outstanding. He posted a .292 Avg., 17 homers, and 51 SB. Not to mention Anibal Sanchez pitched a complete game no hitter and ending up with a 10-3 record with an astounding 2.83 ERA.
     All I have left to say is fire Theo Epstein. He went in got Daisuke Matsuzaka just so the Yankees couldn't get him. However we are turning out to be the next Yankees. We have the second highest pay roll and always go after proven players giving up our future top prospects just like the Yankees. We get just as much publicity as the Yankees do. Considering we are going to sign Daisuke to a 3 year deal worth 75 million dollars plus the 51.2 million just to talk to him. He might be great for one year, but is he worth 125 million for one good year and half of Japan to like us. Please John Henry fire Theo Epstein!

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Re: Fire Theo Epstein!
Theo wasn't with the team when the Beckett deal was made. Remember the gorilla suit? He didn't come back to the team until after the deal was made. There are certainly problems with the trade that can be discussed, but to blame Theo is off-target.
Secondly, where are you getting $75m/3 years for Matsuzaka? That's way beyond anything I've seen elsewhere. That's A-Rod money, and I'd be very surprised if it got beyond $15m/yr, let alone $25m. As for the $51.2m, they don't pay it if a contract isn't agreed to, so it's not "just to talk to him." A large portion of that will be offset by marketing deals (in-game advertising, a possible NESN agreement,  etc.) so even though the game broadcasting rights and team merchandise are owned by MLB, the Sox wil re-coup much, if not all of it.

by 6thround on Nov 16, 2006 6:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fire Theo Epstein!
No mention of Mike Lowell? Yes, he has a hefty contract but he produced as a Red Sox this year:

.284/.339/.475 with 20 HR and 80 RBI. Not to mention, Gold Glove calibur defense.

And on Hanley, I'm not sure you can say he was "amazing" when his Double-A numbers were extremely poor (.271 BA, 6 HR to mention a couple). Yes, he has, or had, the tools but they weren't coming together. So why not ship him out?

Hindsight is 20/20, but I agreed with it then and I still agree with it.

by Randy Booth on Nov 16, 2006 6:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

once more into the breach, dear friends!
I don't think firing Theo is the right thing to do.  For years, fans have been shelling out the highest prices for tickets in the business, and now that we see them reinvesting it in the team, we're going to complain?  Hell no!  I'd rather have our payroll sit right at the luxury tax threshold (148 mil) and see our team compete than see us shell out last years salary (130 mil) to finish out of the playoffs.  After losing control of the AL East, Theo needed to make a statement, not only to the rest of the league, but also to the team and the fans that we are commited to winning.  We thought we could do it with the farm system (and I still believe that. it either produced or landed three of our five starters + Youk).

Your figures are wrong.  The consensus is we'll offer 4 years, 36 mil.  thats 87.1 for four years, but none of that luxury tax will hit us.  This is a good move, seeing as it will generate more interest in the Red Sox (thus making us more money that we can reinvest in the team). Whens the next time that we will be able to acquire a top young pitcher without giving up draft picks or paying luxury tax?  Looking at the trend (Vincente Padilla will probably command 10mil a year!), its clear that mediocre pitchers are getting paid like aces, so why not pay an ace what he should get and be set for four years?

by forage on Nov 16, 2006 7:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

A few words in defense of Theo ...
First, let me say, I've been critical of the Sox FO the last two years.  Many of the Major League moves have made little sense to me (the jury is out on the prospects).  I hated the Beckett deal at the time (I don't think we'll ever know how much input Theo had in that trade).  I also hated the Bronson-Wily Mo trade, and the deal that brought Mirabelli back.  None of that is hindsight.

However, I think TedSox9 is losing sight of what Theo and this ownership has done for the Sox.  Let's not forget the how Theo overhauled the club in 2003, bringing in players like David Ortiz, Bill Mueller, Kevin Millar, Mike Timlin, and Todd Walker for a combined $10.65 million.  He made a few other good moves in 2004.

As for Matsuzaka, I don't think the Sox went after him just to keep him from the Yankees.  He was the best available starter--and he is young.  The FO is trying to strengthen a weak--and aging--rotation.  Also, as forage and 6thround point out, the money spent to get Matsuzaka's rights doesn't count as payroll against the luxury tax and the Sox may reap a huge marketing windfall.

I find it funny that so many sportswriters are saying that Boston is acting like the Yankees.  How?  They don't have all stars at virtually every position (this team still has quite a few holes).  Their payroll, as of now, is still about $80 million less than the MFY's.  Yup, they paid a lot of money for the right to negotiate with Matsuzaka, who will cost less in payroll than Barry Zito.  But they did it for two reasons: One, Matsuzaka has a ton of upside and might be a top of the rotation starter (something the Sox need); and, by tapping into the Asian market (where the Sox are weak), they are hoping to increase their revenue stream.  You have to spend money to make money!  That's why ownership has poured tons of money into renovating and improving Fenway.  Why isn't everyone screaming about the hundreds of millions the Sox have wasted on that?  

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 16, 2006 8:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fire Theo Epstein!
ridiculous!

by soxfanincleveland on Nov 16, 2006 10:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fire Theo Epstein!
Scott Boras was quoted on Boston.com as saying that Hideki Matsui brings in somewhere around $21 million a year for the Yankees in marketing and advertising from Japan.  So you can put that in your equation as well.  Bottom line is that this $51.1 million, if we end up paying it, is not coming out of payroll, and we will hopefully be getting most of it back on Matsuzaka anyway.

I am a little worried, though, that we won't end up signing Matsuzaka at all, because I also read that he's a Yankee fan.  But, living in Japan, it's probably hard not to be a Yankee fan.  My gut tells me that he's a professional, and, like most professional athletes, he'll go where the money is.

My prediction:  At the end of the season, TedSox9 and everyone else will be calling Theo a hero once again.

by cbtbone on Nov 16, 2006 11:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fire Theo Epstein!
he's still in the doghouse in my book for trading Arroyo...

by forage on Nov 16, 2006 11:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fire Theo Epstein!
Yeah I'm with you there, I miss the cornrows.

by cbtbone on Nov 17, 2006 12:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know about the rest of you,
but I sure miss that pin-up Anabelle.
Vote for Pedroia

by britsoxfan on Nov 17, 2006 4:11 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: I don't know about the rest of you,
hah!
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Nov 17, 2006 8:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A reactionary post
TedSox9,
Your post seems to be completely reactionary. I would encourage you to seriously consider the current state of baseball economics and supply & demand. I will try to be concise, since I've laid this out before.
  • The fundamental issue is that true aces don't hit the free agent market any more. If a team needs an ace, it must grow one on the farm or trade for one.
  • There are not 30 aces in all of MLB.
  • Starting pitchers command ridiculous sums of money, often for mediocre performance (countless examples) or unproven success (Burnett, for example). I don't believe Barry Zito is a true ace (he's an ideal #2 in my mind), and Schmidt is in his twilight years. Both will demand silly money.
  • I wrote a whole essay on Matsuzaka, which I'd encourage you to read here. There are good follow-up comments with links to interesting articles.
Trading Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez (the others are a dime-a-dozen in most farm systems), was a GOOD move for the Sox. Forget about what is and what did happen. At the time of the trade, I imagine you were doing cartwheels with the rest of Red Sox fandom. The only part of the deal that was not lauded by, well, everyone, was taking on Mike Lowell. He had a pretty decent season.
  • Anibal Sanchez is projected to be a #3 or 4 starter. Odds that he ever surpasses Beckett as a pitcher are slim.
  • Hanley Ramirez was known for being terribly inconsistent and lacking power. He broke out in a big way, but many people were beginning to have diminished expectations for him. The Sox were higher on Pedroia, and have other decent middle-infield prospects in the system (Lowrie, for example).
  • Both Ramirez and Sanchez were prospects, with greater odds of failure--they're called prospects for a reason. The Red Sox got in return a proven, MLB-caliber pitcher who had pitched successfully in the pressure of the World Series.
With those points in mind, unless you really, truly believed in Ramirez and Sanchez, the Beckett trade made sense. We got a potential ace on Fire Sale--and, yes, he can still be an ace if he learns to be more crafty with his stuff.

Now, I agree that not all of Epstein's moves have been good ones. Trading Cle Meredith and Josh Bard to get Doug Mirabelli back was short sighted and just plain dumb. Theo has admitted as much and vowed not to make any more knee-jerk trades. The jury is still out on Arroyo-for-Pena. Arroyo is a very good, consistent pitcher whom we signed for below market price. He had a lot of value to the Sox, but he wouldn't have the same numbers pitching against the AL, particularly in Fenway (his road splits were much better). Wily Mo Pena could be a tremendous power hitter, a rock in the middle of the Red Sox lineup, or he could be a low-discipline free-swinger who prays for contact for the rest of his career.

I think Epstein is still learning his trade, but he's not afraid to make moves and try to improve the team. Given the number of REALLY DUMB GMs out there (Bowden, Baird, Henry, and on and on), I'm happy to have Theo Epstein managing the Sox. At least he has the right idea.

"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Nov 17, 2006 9:16 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fire Theo Epstein!
Ramirez may wind up having a solid ML career, but Jerome Walton won the NL ROY once, too. If Beckett helps pitch us to a World Series even once in the next three years the trade will have been well worth it. It can't be judged on one season, and one no-hitter.

by Tom Leach on Nov 17, 2006 11:28 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fire Theo Epstein!
Astounding.  Just astounding.  Posts like this remind me of a saying by one Ben Franklin:  "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

by cblesz on Nov 17, 2006 8:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fire Theo Epstein!
Wow....ignorance abound in this one...

For the purpose of this arguement we won't even consider that Theo had nothing to do with the Beckett deal as he wasn't even with the team at the time. We'll just take a look at the deal.

When you have the chance to take a 26 year old power pitcher who has already proven himself to be more than capable at the major league level, you take that chance. Beckett didn't work out last year, but the talent is still there. My guess is that he shaves at least a run off his ERA next year.

 The Sox thought that Ramirez was at the peak of his value. Since drafted he displayed all of the tools, but never any results. He went on to win rookie of the year, but before last year there was a good chance that he was going to be another toolsy bust.

Sanchez absolutely was not "decent" or a throw in. He was the centerpiece of the deal. His talent was one small step behind Lester and Papelbon's. No one wanted to see the guy go, but it's not exactly a tough choice. On one hand you have a guy with the potential to be a very solid top of the rotation guy someday. On the other you have a guy who already was a top of the rotation guy. You take Beckett over Sanchez any day.

Turns out the deal didn't work out so well for the Sox, but it was a good one at the time and it there's still time for Beckett to step up and make it a bit better for the Sox.

As for Matsuzaka...how in the hell do you know why he put in that bid? Did you talk to Theo? Did he tell you that he was only doing it so the Yankees couldn't have him? Theo put in that bid because the Red Sox needed to make a big change in the rotation and Matsuzaka was the best guy to do that. And 3 years at $25 mil a year? You really need to get some new sources there, guy.

There are plenty of things to point to if you want to say that Theo isn't a very good GM, but neither of those deals are the things you should be pointing at. Every move he made last year turned to shit. They were all good moves at the time, but nothing worked out. It was a terrible year for him and for the team. But '07 won't be a repeat of that.

by brady12 on Nov 18, 2006 2:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fire Theo Epstein!
actually, Sanchez had better stuff than Lester.  We gave him up because he has had elbow problems before, and had to have Tommy John surgery.  He recovered fully, and pitched a great year.

by forage on Nov 19, 2006 12:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fire Theo Epstein!
... and Lester is a lefty.  Power lefties are hard to find.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 19, 2006 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fire Theo Epstein!
I guess the standard now is: have a bad season, fire the GM even if the team won its first World Series in 86 years under the same guy just two years prior.

Personally, I think I'd stick with the guy with the ring for at least another year or two.  

by RickD on Nov 21, 2006 6:47 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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